View Full Version : new eotech models relaibility during carbine courses
I hate asking gear questions but how well will the newer eotech models i.e. xps/exps hold up during a 3-day/2k round carbine course? has anyone ever had one break or seen one break during a course, or is this mostly internet talk? I hear some of these courses can get close to 2k rounds. I've been thinking of signing up for a class, I don't know much about them though.
Never have to ask that question if you are running an Aimpoint T1, just sayin'.
I personally dont think you will have to worry during a 2000 round course. In my experience it is battery life/shut-off, long term electronics durability, and hoising durability that puts them behind the aimpoint.
They are a tested battle sight. In MY OPINION they just break easier.
I wouldnt worry for civilian use.
This has been discussed many times. The (E)XPS versions have been reportedly more reliable than the 500 series. Of course anything can break at anytime but the new transverse battery models have been fairing pretty well. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. As with any brand RDS, I would also recommend having a quality set of properly zeroed BUIS mounted in the event of a failure.
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Run it and be happy with it. It will last in a civi world for a long time. It will last in a combat world until you smack it on a humvee or mrap or until the sun washes it out.
Have back ups and beat on the optic when you need to and baby it when you get home.
jonconsiglio
01-04-14, 12:35
I don't have any experience with the newer EoTechs, just the 512 I owned years and years ago and damaged. I've had about a dozen Aimpoints over the years without issues, and I'm not easy on my gear.
Having said that, I am interested in the EXPS 3 and would like to give one a try on a less important rifle.
I've talked to a number of guys about this, including a friend and forum member who had a 553 and is seeing the EXPS 3's being issued. By all accounts, the guys using them have had good results without many failures. Time will tell, but this is definitely the best EoTech we've seen.
I don't think they're on par with Aimpoint, but I think most LEO's and civilians will run them successfully in carbine classes and a duty/defensive role.
I have never been in a carbine class where at least one didn't fail, not just run out of battery power, during the course. I know the military uses them everywhere, but why are they always failing with civilian use in 1-2 day training environments? Not just my observation, instructors also. Bugs me, because I'd like to get one, someday.
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I have never been in a carbine class where at least one didn't fail, not just run out of battery power, during the course. I know the military uses them everywhere, but why are they always failing with civilian use in 1-2 day training environments? Not just my observation, instructors also. Bugs me, because I'd like to get one, someday.
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I bet it's because the civilian ones are not maintained as scrupulously as the military ones. I also suspect that these training days are the first/only times these optics see significant use. I don't believe Eotechs are issued to regularl military so the units that do field them probably have access to more funding, etc., meaning they train more with these optics and replace the unreliable ones.
I do agree that on a comparison basis, Aimpoint is probably a more reliable optic yet we still see some pretty switched-on people continuing to use Eotech, there must be a reason...
my personal opinion is that the Eotech has a very nice circle/dot reticle that makes it fast to acquire and align. it's circle is very useful for bracketing silhouettes at 25-50 yards and the circle gives a precise aiming point. at close range (7-20 yds) where vertical displacement of the optic over bore requires a "holdover", the bottom cross on the circle makes an effective aiming point.
some folks like the single dot of an Aimpoint just fine and I do too but where the speed advantage exists, it rests with the Eotech. the Aimpoint has reliability and battery life in it's favor. I make sense of these two optics like this - if I may have to grab the gun and put into immediate action, without turning the optic on or adjusting the brightness, I prefer Aimpoint for its "always on" capability. if OTOH, I have time to pick up/un-case/make ready the gun and turn on and adjust the optic, the reticle on the Eotech is more useful. I think of these as defensive and offensive uses of the gun. it seems to me the military units using the Eotech are most often offensive units who have time and resources to make sure their equipment is well vetted with fresh batteries at the start of every mission (I could be wrong, that's just an observation)...
I've gone back and forth on Eotech - I've owned a couple but sold them to replace with Aimpoint, but always have the hankering somewhere deep in my mind for another one. I used to use Eotech for training/recreation guns and Aimpoints for my "bump-in-the-night" gun. bottom line for me is until the reliability/battery life/auto shutoff issues of the Eotech are resolved, the mantra, "Train like you fight", it made more sense to just use Aimpoint exclusively...
I have never been in a carbine class where at least one didn't fail, not just run out of battery power, during the course.
I'm not an Eotech fanboy, and own both Eotechs and Aimpoint. I believe your comment is a bit overstated. I've been in several carbine courses and no one who had an Eotech had any problems.
On the other hand, I've been now in a number of carbine classes where guys had their EOTECH lose their zeroes, had to rezeroe during the class, had to tinker around with their brightness settings repeatedly. Not to beat a dead horse, but with my Aimpoint T1s, they are just one, rock solid, dead on zero and I never have to touch it.
I have never been in a carbine class where at least one didn't fail, not just run out of battery power, during the course. I know the military uses them everywhere, but why are they always failing with civilian use in 1-2 day training environments? Not just my observation, instructors also. Bugs me, because I'd like to get one, someday.
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Where these the xps/exps models you saw failing (the ones where the battery case faces a different direction) or the 5xx models?
Singlestack Wonder
01-04-14, 14:58
Read all of the threads about eotech failures.
Read all of the threads about eotech failures.
I've done some searching and 99% of the time they either don't specify if old/new or they are talking about the 5xx models.
I asked Larry Vickers why the military seems to prefer EOTECH his answer was simply that they won the bid and that's what a lot of MIL guys are used to, but he will take an Aimpoint Red Dot hands down over an Eotech any day of the week. The T-1 is his go-to optic "unless I can think of a really, really good reason reason to run something else" on his rifles. I was in a training class with a recently retired Green Beret who had not seen or worked with an Aimpoint T-1. He borrowed my rifle for most of the day and could not say enough good about the T-1.
I ran a Bushmaster with an EOTech 512 through quite a few classes years ago. Despite being assured that bushmasters are junk and so are eotechs and they wont make it through a class, much less 3 or 4...maybe Im a sorcerer?!?! LOL
OP, the main issues were with the EOTech 5xx series battery compartment. This issue has been resolved with the transverse mounted CR123 battery models like the E/XPS. There is an auto shut-off feature that shuts the units off at a preselected 4 or 8 hour interval. You may have to keep that in mind during the course of the day. Pressing either up/down button will reset the timer. The EOTechs utilize a laser instead of an LED that other manufacturers use & therefore will consume more energy than those models. It's a good idea to keep extra batteries with you. The unit will flash at start up to indicate a low battery level.
Not to beat a dead horse, but with my Aimpoint T1s, they are just one, rock solid, dead on zero and I never have to touch it.
Yet you continue to beat a dead horse. The OP asked a specific question regarding a specific manufacturer. No where did he mention Aimpoint, Ford, Chevy, Massengill, Summer's Eve, etc.
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I have several Eotechs, a T-1 and a couple of PROs. All have been great sights for me. I tend to prefer the Eotech reticle. I've never had a transverse-battery Eotech fail me through many 2 or 3 day courses, even the one I have mounted on my shotgun. I've never had a zero problem. Battery life is shorter...not an issue for me. They give plenty of warning before failure...just drop in another CR123.
I have several Eotechs, a T-1 and a couple of PROs. All have been great sights for me. I tend to prefer the Eotech reticle. I've never had a transverse-battery Eotech fail me through many 2 or 3 day courses, even the one I have mounted on my shotgun. I've never had a zero problem. Battery life is shorter...not an issue for me. They give plenty of warning before failure...just drop in another CR123.
K thats good to hear, did you ever see any major problems with transverse-battery EO's with other shooters during the course?
EOTech has fixed the majority of their battery issues. The only major fault most have with them now is the auto-off feature (and the comparatively shorter battery life, when compared to Aimpoints).
I believe your comment is a bit overstated. I've been in several carbine courses and no one who had an Eotech had any problems.
I'm not sure how you can say my experience is overstated. Unless you were in my classes, you wouldn't know what my experience was any more than I can say your experience is overstated where you say there were no problems.
No. I've never seen an (E)XPS model fail at a carbine course.
No. I've never seen an (E)XPS model fail at a carbine course.
k, that's good to hear
Well I don't have any experience running them, but I've been in several classes where they've failed. (Loss of zero, F-16 reticle, and completely falling off the rifle.) BUT, these were all 500 series. Part of my current team runs the XPS, and have for several years, and have not had problems. While I still prefer my T-1, I'd be okayyyyyy with it if issued, but less than happy.
mkmckinley
01-04-14, 22:02
I've personally had them go down during military training due to the battery connections shitting the bed. Whatever glue they used just deteriorated or something and the foam and metal connectors came out. This happened in a temperate environment stateside twice on two different Eotechs. They were the inline battery models. I've also observed similar problems with other people's Eotechs several times. If I were still running an Eotech I'd have one or two batter terminal repair kits in my go bag if I could get my hands on them. Personally whatever supposed advantages that Eotechs have aren't outweighed by the battery connection problems. L3 seems to have fixed the battery problem with the XPS and EXPS line which is a good thing. I had a XPS for awhile and it seemed like a reasonably durable optic. I got rid of it because I dislike the auto shutoff that those models still "feature" and which may or may not be an issue to other shooters.
Yet you continue to beat a dead horse. The OP asked a specific question regarding a specific manufacturer. No where did he mention Aimpoint, Ford, Chevy, Massengill, Summer's Eve, etc.
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Here here.
why are they always failing with civilian use in 1-2 day training environments?
OK. I apologize for not including your entire statement. "Always failing" is what's overstated, because they aren't.
I have an EXPS3-0 that so far I've used in a single 2 day class. No issues to report. There was only one other Eotech in the class, which was an older model with inline batteries. He didn't have any problems either.
Boba Fett v2
01-05-14, 01:19
Someone made a comment in another thread on another forum about how the N-cell EOTechs have severely crippled EOTech's reputation for reliability and durability and I couldn't agree more. I've gotten over my personal distrust for EOTech and went ahead and got me the EXPS, which has performed without issue. No, I haven't attended a carbine course with it (got a lot of that type of training at the government's expense during my many trips to Fort AP Hill over the years), but I don't handle my firearms with kiddy gloves and I send a lot of bullets down range in my spare time. I've always liked the concept of the EOTech HUD and have always shot well with it, but I just couldn't get over the fact that they were prone to failure once upon a time. I told myself I'd get one if they'd fix those problems and that's why one of my carbines now wears one today. Now of course I've got lots of trigger time behind ACOGs and Aimpoints too, and I'd probably be just as happy with any one of those combat proven optics on my personal carbines, but the EOTech HWS is American ingenuity at work. I want to see an American company succeed. I want to root for the underdog and see them overcome this "failure" stigma. I will continue to support the company as long as they remain committed to good customer service, and are always striving for improvement and innovation.
I love shooting eotech's on someone else's gun. I've got a bad taste from my first one that lasted less than 3 mags before the reflecting lens came loose, and was sent back for repair. It was a 512, but I still have a hard time trusting the new models.
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I haven't run mine through a carbine course but I've put a few cases of 5.56 through my BCM 16" middy with XPS2.0, beating around in the woods and I've never experienced any problems with losing zero or any other malfunction. It still looks brand new to boot. I greatly prefer the reticle and window on my Eotech. The batteriers are a moot point because I have about 1000 Surefire CR123s and I make sure that all of my battery-operated accessories run off the same cell. They can be had cheaply enough that when I'm in doubt as to the battery life (600 hours continuous is still not bad folks), I can just toss a new one in. That being said, I'm still on the first cell I installed (probably time to change it out). I bought and quickly sold an Aimpoint T-1 because I hate looking through a tube to find my target. I'm an irons guy and even peering through a scope bugs the crap out of me.
OK. I apologize for not including your entire statement. "Always failing" is what's overstated, because they aren't.
OK, I guess you are right. I went back and considered every class I have taken and there was one class where this didn't occur. It was Larry Vickers' very first Advanced Tactics class that he did in NC. The reason it didn't happen in this course that is everyone in the class had their kit together, were experienced and prepared, and...there were no eotechs in the class! In EVERY other carbine course I have been in at least one has ALWAYS failed in one way or another. Your mileage may vary, but my experience is my experience, not yours. You can call me a liar but you can't change my experience.
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Boba Fett v2
01-05-14, 23:58
OK, I guess you are right. I went back and considered every class I have taken and there was one class where this didn't occur. It was Larry Vickers' very first Advanced Tactics class that he did in NC. The reason it didn't happen in this course that is everyone in the class had their kit together, were experienced and prepared, and...there were no eotechs in the class! In EVERY other carbine course I have been in at least one has ALWAYS failed in one way or another. Your mileage may vary, but my experience is my experience, not yours. You can call me a liar but you can't change my experience.
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Okay, so can you say which models have failed? The older 500 series or the newer XPS/EXPS models? This bit of information is more critical to the OP, rather than just saying "I've seen EOTechs fail". Generalizing adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion. Be specific.
SpeedRacer
01-06-14, 00:20
I attend 2-3 carbine classes a year and hang out/assist at probably a dozen. My current primary EXPS2-0 has between 8-10K rounds with it mounted, of which I'd say 80% was during intermediate and advanced level classes. No issues to speak of. I've also never seen any other X or EX-series Eotechs (or Aimpoints) fail in any classes. Older model Eotechs and budget optics are a different story.
They have their drawbacks compared to Aimpoints (namely weight, battery life and auto-shutoff), but they are rock solid in my experience.
Okay, so can you say which models have failed? The older 500 series or the newer XPS/EXPS models? This bit of information is more critical to the OP, rather than just saying "I've seen EOTechs fail". Generalizing adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion. Be specific.
Sorry, I don't take inventory during class and make a chart. Nor could I recognize which model one was on a rifle 10 people away on the line. Probably the older ones. Sorry I don't know more. I'll now go flog myself due to my inadequacy in meeting your high expectations. Geese, lighten up dude.
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OP was asking about two specific model lines of Eotech, not about the brand in general or older models.
Boba Fett v2
01-06-14, 01:02
Sorry, I don't take inventory during class and make a chart. Nor could I recognize which model one was on a rifle 10 people away on the line. Probably the older ones. Sorry I don't know more. I'll now go flog myself due to my inadequacy in meeting your high expectations. Geese, lighten up dude.
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Why? Am I heavy?
The internet is full of good information and just plain bullshit. People migrate to online communities like this in hopes they can glean some no-bullshit information from straight shooters who have real-world experience with the gear they have questions about. The OP asked about specific models. You were generalizing and contributed nothing other than "I seen EOTechs fail". I've seen BMWs fail. Does that help the guy who's interested in getting some feedback on the reliability and performance of a 2013 M3?
Why? (1) Am I heavy?
The OP asked about specific models. You were generalizing and contributed nothing other than "I (have) seen EOTechs fail".
1) No, just full of yourself.
2) OK, I stand corrected.
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I have ran my EOTech XPS 2.0 through a few 1-day courses, with no problems. The most intensive use was a 600-round 1-day course, ran in two details, I.e. 1,200 rounds in one day.
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