View Full Version : Guns in VA restaurants draw stares but little outcry
Guns in Va. restaurants draw stares but little outcry
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Published: 5/14/08, 9:25 AM EDT
By MATTHEW BARAKAT
RESTON, Va. (AP) - The patrons at Champps, an upscale restaurant and bar chain, were eating ribs and drinking beer on a recent Saturday when customer Bruce Jackson stood up and made an announcement: He was armed, and so were dozens of other patrons.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/open-carry-va.jpg
The armed customers stood up in unison, showing off their holstered pistols and revolvers. Jackson said a word or two about the rights of gun owners to carry firearms in Virginia, then thanked everyone for their attention and sat down.
The diners returned to their burgers and Budweisers.
The Virginia Citizens Defense League organized the gathering at Champps to prove a point: that the presence of armed customers in northern Virginia restaurants would elicit little more than shrugs.
The Champps appearance - and several other restaurant visits throughout northern Virginia last month - were a response to comments from the majority leader in the state Senate, Democrat Richard Saslaw, who said armed patrons would be unwelcome in northern Virginia restaurants.
"In most urban areas, you walk into a restaurant with a gun on your hip, they're going to tell you to get out," Saslaw said.
In fact, with a few exceptions, the gun owners got their meals. The group went to eight different restaurants in April - including the Fuddruckers burger chain and the McLean Family Restaurant - and more often than not their presence failed to generate a stir. At two eateries, they were asked to leave.
All the restaurants were in Fairfax County, a bastion of suburbia and soccer moms outside Washington that is the wealthiest county in America, according to the most recent Census data.
"This is an area with a large population of government agents - FBI, CIA, local," said Champps' manager, Carey Vereen. "In terms of people seeing open carry, it's not a shock to our customers."
It is also a place where nerves over the gun debate are still somewhat raw a year after the shootings at Virginia Tech, where 32 people were slain, including many from northern Virginia.
Gun owners in Virginia are allowed to carry firearms in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as the restaurant permits it and they carry their weapon openly. Legislation to allow concealed weapons in restaurants serving alcohol passed the General Assembly this year, but was vetoed by Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.
Virginia is one of two states, along with Montana, that demands any arms be openly carried in restaurants that serve alcohol, according to the Web site opencarry.org, which promotes and monitors gun owners' rights. Eleven states ban guns altogether in restaurants that serve alcohol, while the rest make no distinction between open and concealed carry.
At Champps, several patrons failed to notice that so many customers were armed, even though dozens of gun-toting men and women had walked right past them.
Tomas Nolasco said he hadn't noticed the guns and didn't care as long as they weren't drinking, which they weren't. His wife was a little more concerned.
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
Dave Vann, a retired D.C. police officer and VCDL member who organized the restaurant visits, said the gun owners' presence make the restaurant more safe, not less.
Many of the men who carry weapons said people frequently just assume they're police or retired police.
At one restaurant - Mike's American Grill - the group had gone essentially unnoticed until a woman in her 20s with a satin-finished, stainless-steel revolver got up from her table.
The restaurant's manager spotted her and asked the group to either put the guns in their cars or leave. They left.
"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye, who hadn't noticed the guns when the group of 20 checked in for their lunch reservation.
Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service while carrying.
Saslaw said he's not necessarily surprised that VCDL found restaurants in the region that would allow them to dine while armed. But he said that carrying guns is simply not normal behavior in this area.
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.
I thought the article was well done and a slap in the face to Bonehead Saslaw who seems intent on making all gun owners out to be reckless hillbillies. The more that dude opens his mouth the more ignorant he sounds so any press given to that guy harms him in my opinion.
I wonder if we had any M4C members attend one of these dinners.
The Archangel
05-14-08, 09:32
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.
Can I hit him George, can I can I??? http://www.houstonperformancedriving.com/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
Virginia is one of two states, along with Montana, that demands any arms be openly carried in restaurants that serve alcohol, according to the Web site opencarry.org
It's so nutty all the different approaches that various states have to this. In AZ you can't carry anywhere that they serve alcohol for consumption... open or concealed.
They tried to get concealed carry passed for Alcohol establishments too, but it got vetoed or some shit. I couldn't care less... I take my gun everywhere anyway.
CarlosDJackal
05-14-08, 13:42
While I applaud what they have done and are trying to do, this type of action is exactly why I canceled my membership with that organization (VCDL) a long time ago. I'm not a huge advocate for people carrying openly - the only time I ever do is when I have to (on duty). If I had my ruthers, I'd rather blend in with the rest of the population. If I were in that restaurant I probably would have told that guy to sit down, STFU, and let me eat in peace. I could care less what they have on their person.
However, it is unfortunate that the Virginia's Governor saw it fit to veto the law that would have allowed carrying concealed in restaurants (with some restrictions like no alcohol - which I personally support) while at the same breath authorizing UNTRAINED employees of the Commonwealth's Attorney to carry concealed even WHILE consume alcohol. IMHO, this is the perfect example of idiocy begetting idiocy. JM2CW and YMMV.
I would have to aggre with you.
I too would much, much, MUCH rather carry concealed everywhere I go...but as long as knuckledragging morons like Saslaw and Kaine have some say in it, that won't be possible....
I wish I knew a restaurant that Saslaw frequented and when he was going to be there....THAT would be the time to show en masse carrying openly....maybe at least he would vote for concealed carry next time...
Guns in Va. restaurants draw stares but little outcry
What were they expecting? The day the earth stood still?
I'm of mixed emotions.
Gun owners in Virginia are allowed to carry firearms in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as the restaurant permits it and they carry their weapon openly. Legislation to allow concealed weapons in restaurants serving alcohol passed the General Assembly this year, but was vetoed by Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.
This is what it's all about, it totally irks me to no end that I have to OC by law to go to a restaurant that serves alcohol.
This was what Kiane had to say about CC in restaurants that serve:
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/03/kaine-vetoes-bills-guns-restaurants-glove-boxes
Allowing concealed weapons into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol puts the public, the employees, and our public safety officers at risk,” Kaine said. “I take seriously the objections of law enforcement to this measure.”
What a tool, so it's OK to have them openly displayed, but by the act of having a shirt over my gun I'm going to put the public at risk.:mad:
Pretty much I feel this was a much deserved slap to his face.
[QUOTE"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.[/QUOTE]
The kind of normal person who thwarted an attempted carjacking with a one year old in the car the day after Xmas.
I live in No. VA. It is much safer than D.C. or Maryland but not everyone is a soccor mom.
Coincidentally, just a few hours ago the governor of the state of GA just signed into law House Bill 89 allowing concealed carry in restaurants, state and city parks and a few other areas. Maybe this will help the dominos fall quicker in other nearby states.
Coincidentally, just a few hours ago the governor of the state of GA just signed into law House Bill 89 allowing concealed carry in restaurants, state and city parks and a few other areas. Maybe this will help the dominos fall quicker in other nearby states.
Let's hope so! It's sad, that I can't legally carry when my wife and I go out to dinner. :(
Good for that group of citizens. Looks like the restaurant owners are starting to inform their managers to start to refuse service to these groups though. Gotta love the sheep. :(
Im all for carrying where and whenever you want, how ever you want. I have a CCW, but rarely carry. I do OWB carry but with a shirt over it alot around home. I live in the country and no one really cares or notices too often. I have an IWB rig, but print really easy.
I was at BBQ last Saturday with some family and friends and had my XD on my hip under my shirt. No one noticed the entire nite, my cousin asked me something about guns and if I kept one in the truck. I replied "I usually try to keep it closer to me."
Ive been in public and no one seemed to notice or care. Then Ive been questioned by family members about carrying a gun. It was Christmas with the family a couple years ago, I had been hunting all day and we met that night. I still had camo on and my pistol on my hip. After a while my aunt asks "Why are you carrying a gun?" Like she'd never seen one and it was the end of the world. I kinda grinned at her giving her a look to say go back to Richmond if you dont like it. If I lived where they live Id carry two guns with me just to go outside and get the paper.
I dont really see the need to stand up, interrupting everyones meal, and make it known that a group of ppl are legally carrying a weapon. To me thats asking for trouble(or approval??), and doesnt help anything. Its in plain sight, if its a problem someone will tell ya about. Most ppl are so self involved they wouldnt notice if you walked in with a full length shotgun over your shoulder. Then you have ppl like myself and other folks who carry, that tend to pay alil more attention to their surroundings, but I dont say anything b/c he/she has the right to do so, just as do I. Then you have the overly paranoid soccer moms who think everyone with a gun is out to shoot everyone else. I guess those ppl have no experience with firearms and dont understand they can be "controlled".
I hope they will pass the new "concealed" law, but as it was vetoed before it probly will again. Congrats GA on passing the law.
RogerinTPA
05-14-08, 21:18
Definitely! In FL you can carry concealed as long as you are not in that part of the establishment licensed to distribute alcohol, i.e., the bar or a club.
VCDL Rocks!
They are one of those grass-roots groups that keep tabs on all attempts local, state or even feds try to exceed their bounds. Big into getting the whole CC going and even work to correct bad language in the laws.
I have no problem with them organizing such events, but I can see both sides of the issue, I just understand that one is based on ignorance.
If there were more groups like this in the country, and as far reaching, who knows where laws would be.
Plus, these guys rate as a CMP organization if you are into that.
BushmasterFanBoy
05-14-08, 21:49
Kudos. I think open carry is stupid from a practical point of view, but applaud those who do it in the name of grassroots activism.
seems to me concealed carry would be safer in a drinking environment, simply due to the lowered chances of someone grabbing or pickpocketing someone elses weapon.
To me, living in northern VA open carry means you're open to have someone club you from behind, nab your gear and take it into D.C. where the street price is 5 times the retail price.
Gentle Ben
05-15-08, 10:10
"Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable."
:rolleyes:
Let's hope so! It's sad, that I can't legally carry when my wife and I go out to dinner. :(
Some gomers on ar15/hometown forum are planning a group trip to a local restaurant and advocating open carry, similar to VA. The HB89 doesn't say anything about open carry.
I carried openly in Utah back in 94 time frame a lot. Mostly as a political point (don't remember the point though ;-) ).
I carried in several fast food places. No one said a thing. (This was the Provo/Orem area).
I saw a guy open carry in a Wal-Mart about 4-5 years ago in West Jordan. I stared, but only to see what kind of gun he had ;-)
Chad
CarlosDJackal
05-15-08, 14:37
Good for that group of citizens. Looks like the restaurant owners are starting to inform their managers to start to refuse service to these groups though. Gotta love the sheep. :(
This, unfortunately is the inevitable side-effect of these types of actions. This is why I am not a huge advocate of OC (NOTE: I have been volunteering my time to teach courses that would provide law-abiding citizens the certificate they need to apply for a CHP for more than 7-years now). Personally, I would have taken offense to these morons disturbing my dinner had I been there as would have most of the gun owners I know.
A restaurant is a private location and as such, it is at their discretion that we can carry. If an establishment chooses to ban anyone wearing a gun or cowboy boots, it is their prerogative and no law can make them do anything.
FWIW, according to some restaurant owners I talke dto a few years ago, they have nothing against people carrying. They just did not cherish the possibility of lost revenue should people be allowed to carry in restaurants because: (a) Those who carried would probably not be buying drinks. (b) Some of their patrons/sheeple may not like to be in close proximity of us Sheepdogs; and (c) They fear the possible increase of armed patrons and the liability they pose. Basically, it's a money issue as far as they're concerned.
Personally, I was hoping that the Governor had not vetoed the law that would have stopped this type of stupidity but alas, he is a demokRAT. :rolleyes:
Heavy Metal
05-15-08, 23:00
Warner would have signed it, I have zero doubt.
Kaine is just a sack of crap.
A story about another dinner:
Gun owners show off their rights in Leesburg
By Elizabeth Coe
Loudoun Times-Mirror
TUESDAY, MAY 20 2008
Five men sat around a table at Giovanni's New York Pizza in Leesburg May 19, eating pizza, sipping iced tea and sharing stories of what it's like to be a gun owner.
A gun was holstered on each man's hip, in plain view of the customers dining at the family-style restaurant.
The men, who are regular citizens, not police officers, were openly carrying their firearms, mainly to exercise their right to do so in the state of Virginia.
"There are a lot of reasons," said Vienna resident Bill Garman, who carries a gun pretty much everywhere it is allowed. "You never know when a crime might happen. It's better to have it and not need it than the other way around."
In Virginia, it is legal to carry guns openly in most public places; in private establishments, it's up to the owner. Federal buildings, schools, secure areas of an airport and correctional facilities are some places where guns are prohibited.
Virginia law also prohibits concealed weapons where alcohol is served, so gun owners who want to carry their guns must do so openly at places like Giovanni's.
Legally, if someone wanted to order a beer while "open carrying," they could do so, said Cascades resident Ed Levine, his gun on his hip. He added that it would be irresponsible to do so.
None of those with guns at Giovanni's chose to drink alcohol during their meal.
A recent law passed by the Virginia General Assembly would have allowed restaurants and clubs to decide whether or not concealed-carry permit holders may conceal firearms in their establishments for self-defense, but Gov. Tim Kaine (D) vetoed that bill, saying that guns and alcohol should not mix.
Business owners have the right to ban guns from their private establishments.
Garman actually changed banks because of its rule against guns.
"I didn't want to give my business to a place that was anti-Second Amendment," he said.
At Giovanni's, owner Ciro Schiano said he had no problem with weapons being there.
"It's OK. We have police coming in with guns too," he said. "We feel more safe."
In fact, the majority of diners at the restaurant, even those with children, said they weren't bothered by the sight of the guns.
"As long as they're in holsters and not in their hands, it doesn't bother me," said Daniel Towle, who was there eating dinner with his wife, Carole, and their 3-year-old son, Thomas.
"I didn't even notice," Carole said, "and even if I did, I wouldn't think anything of it. It's Virginia."
Out of 10 patrons interviewed for this story, only one expressed discomfort with the situation, saying she didn't think guns were appropriate for a family restaurant. She declined to comment further.
The gun owners said they rarely receive any kind of negative response while carrying.
"I try to make people more aware of the law, but I could walk around all day and a lot of people wouldn't even notice it," said Eric Hansen, a resident of Harpers Ferry who grew up in Ashburn.
While working late at night delivering newspapers in the Ashburn Farm area years ago, Hansen was stabbed. He said he's carried a gun ever since.
"It used to be a way of life out here," he said. "As more and more city people moved in, the demographics changed and people didn't know what was going on."
The gun owners agreed that a lot of people just aren't aware of their right to carry a gun openly in Virginia.
"Most people who have anything to say are friends from Maryland or D.C.," said gun owner Shane Lamm, of Winchester. "They're kind of amazed because they're ignorant of the law."
Last week, Levine had a discussion with some Leesburg Police officers who were misinformed on the law. When he asked them what they would do if they saw him carrying his weapon openly, they told him they would want to check his ID and permit status.
Levine explained to carry a gun in the open in Virginia, you don't need a permit and there is no requirement to show identification to police.
That incident prompted Leesburg Chief of Police Joseph Price to contact Levine through e-mail with a response.
"The officers' information to you was incorrect," Price wrote. "We had already scheduled refresher training on this topic. Thank you for bringing it to my attention."
Kraig Troxell, spokesman for the Loudoun County Sheriff's Office, said officers are well trained when it comes to gun laws in Virginia and he was unaware of any recent incidents involving a misunderstanding over the open carry law.
Contact the reporter at ecoe@timespapers.com
loudountimes.com/news/2008/may/20/gun-owners-show-their-rights-leesburg/ (http://loudountimes.com/news/2008/may/20/gun-owners-show-their-rights-leesburg/)
:cool:
Carrying guns either concealed or open is guaranteed by the 2A.
I applaud those who are willing to stand for their rights and actually excercise it.
Wether you agree w/ open carry or not is irrelevent, and attacking those who support open carry make you as bad as the antis and I see a lot of that on gun boards.
I want vermont style carry nationwide, just like the FF intended
[QUOTE=CarlosDJackal;163456]While I applaud what they have done and are trying to do, this type of action is exactly why I canceled my membership with that organization (VCDL) a long time ago. I'm not a huge advocate for people carrying openly - the only time I ever do is when I have to (on duty)QUOTE]
Why, what makes you in the right to carry in the open. Because your a Cop on Duty. But the civilian who has the duty to protect himself and Family can't. Last I checked the LEO community has no legal obligation to protect Citizens.
I am not picking a fight with you personally. Just making a point. Ever since I entered the LEO profession. I have come across a lot of LEO'S who are in some way or another against Armed law abiding Citizens.
BTW, I had dinner out Thursday evening with 10 other folks. Most, if not all, of us were open carrying.
No muss, no fuss, no staring, no police -- just good food and good fellowship.
Sweet waitress said "Y'all have a good evening and please come again."
Definitely! In FL you can carry concealed as long as you are not in that part of the establishment licensed to distribute alcohol, i.e., the bar or a club.
More exactly, the portion of said establishment from which the primary source of income is from the sale and consumption of alcohol. Sitting at a table in a Applebee's is fine, sitting at the bar itself, isnt.
olivers_AR
05-25-08, 20:07
If the esteemed Governor had passed the conceal carry with permit, would have solved some of the problems. :D
--Olivers_AR
Bulldog1967
05-25-08, 20:29
To me, living in northern VA open carry means you're open to have someone club you from behind, nab your gear and take it into D.C. where the street price is 5 times the retail price.
To me, if your situational awareness is that bad, you shouldn't be carrying at all.
I was at the Champs function, and will be posting a video for the VCDL website, as I have done in the past.
ETA in my former home state of PA, which has over 500,000 permit holders, (vs Virginias 150,000 permit holders), there is no prohibition on carry while in an ABC establishment.
There are very few, if any incidents.
More exactly, the portion of said establishment from which the primary source of income is from the sale and consumption of alcohol. Sitting at a table in a Applebee's is fine, sitting at the bar itself, isnt.
And unless you're the owner you can't carry while working in a restaurant that serves alcohol (though this is federal law, not Florida law). Folks walking out with wads of cash simply can't be trusted to their own safety.
Incidentally, at work today was an off-duty officer who lamented that not enough civilians carry concealed weapons. To paraphrase, people need to realize that cops can't be everywhere. Cool dude, tipped well. ;)
-B
Ridge_Runner_5
05-26-08, 10:31
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
We'll see how much you are bothered when some armed man comes in to rob the place...and there is nobody there to stop them!
Bulldog1967
05-27-08, 19:38
BTW, the MANAGER of said Champs has taken classes at Storm Mountain, and is a BIG CCW/OC believer.
While I applaud what they have done and are trying to do, this type of action is exactly why I canceled my membership with that organization (VCDL) a long time ago.
I am trying to understand what kind of action you are referring to... Eating? Carrying? Announcing?
No matter what it is, canceling your membership in an organization because you have a beef with one aspect is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Remember, if it is a perfect organization they would not want most of us to be members.
I'm not a huge advocate for people carrying openly
As an organization neither is the VCDL. The VCDL promotes your rights to carry as you please. The VCDL does not promote either open or concealed carry. Just carry, but please, do not take my word for it. Send a note to Philip and ask him as he is the only true voice of the VCDL.
If I had my druthers, I'd rather blend in with the rest of the population.
I carry. If it is warm or hot, openly. If it is cool or cold concealed. Funny thing is, people don't look 95% of the time regardless. Basically, I have a CHP so I can wear a coat in the winter, but since Champps serves alcohol for on-site consumption we HAD to carry openly.
If I were in that restaurant I probably would have told that guy to sit down, STFU, and let me eat in peace.
Considering it is a sports bar, eating in peace is not a real option, however the announcement was made with both purpose and permission of the management.
The video guy, Matt, said he had a problem. He said that all the folks coming in thought it was a retirement party for a cop. With a video of people eating it would have done nothing to cause Banjo Dick Saslaw any concern. So I got permission from the management to make a small announcement. I explained why we were there and asked that everyone that was armed to raise their hand. The camera panned the crowd to show all the raised hands. So NOW the video had some substance.
You can see the video on the VCDL website or on YouTube.
http://tinyurl.com/mnaguk
I do not blame your reaction as I was hammered all over the country in the comment sections of most papers that that article appeared in. Only one person came back and apologized when they saw the video.
On another note, I really do not understand people that make comments like you have here. You state that you like the VCDL but will not support them. I assume you like guns because you are here, but you state that you would tell anyone trying to further your rights that you would tell them to "sit down, STFU, and let me eat in peace"
THAT is really sad and I hope you did not mean it like I have read it...
"Open Carry", or carrying a firearms openly.....is stupid.
Am I glad it's legal in VA? Yes. Have I done it? Yes, usually during a lunch break from a training class.
I'm with Carlos on this....I love how effective VCDL is, but their promotion of open carry is just....I can't support it.
Reasonable people can have differing points of view.
Jay Cunningham
07-21-09, 07:50
"Open Carry", or carrying a firearms openly.....is stupid.
Am I glad it's legal in VA? Yes. Have I done it? Yes, usually during a lunch break from a training class.
I'm with Carlos on this....I love how effective VCDL is, but their promotion of open carry is just....I can't support it.
Reasonable people can have differing points of view.
You know that we both have very similar opinions of OC, yet I actually chose to OC the other night - to my monthly "sportsmen's club" meeting. It was intentional on my part to remind the membership that drinking beer and fishing are not the only activities that occur there.
I had a concealment garment in my car, however, and if I had needed to stop for anything on the way home I would have put it on. That's as far as my "activism" goes. ;)
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-09, 07:56
BTW, the MANAGER of said Champs has taken classes at Storm Mountain, and is a BIG CCW/OC believer.
Is the Champs manager at the start of video here on the board, or is Van Clreave here on the site?
Dick Black, now that is a name you won't forget.
Open Carry to me is like nudism, if you want to show everyone your junk, go right ahead, I'll keep mine in my pants.
I do understand that you guys have to do something to try to get things changed and a bit more sane, and change isn't going to come by doing the status quo. Personally, I think the announcement is a bit odd, I almost think a flyer passed out telling everyone that they were part of an 'experiment' and a call to action would be as effective. I just don't like my meal interrupted ;)
Is the Champs manager at the start of video here on the board, or is Van Clreave here on the site?
Dick Black, now that is a name you won't forget.
I do not believe Philip is here.
"Open Carry", or carrying a firearms openly.....is stupid.
Am I glad it's legal in VA? Yes. Have I done it? Yes, usually during a lunch break from a training class.
I'm with Carlos on this....I love how effective VCDL is, but their promotion of open carry is just....I can't support it.
Reasonable people can have differing points of view.
I've been a member of VCDL for 5 years or more, and I don't remember them ever promoting open carry over concealed. They (we) stump for the rights of gun owners in general, including carry rights (whether open or concealed), and VCDL will typically be at gun rights events (which will by default feature open carry if they are at a restaurant).
I expect you'd be pleased with VCDL's efforts to get the restaurant ban on concealed carry overturned. These efforts have led to an overturning of the ban being passed by the legislature for the past two years, only to be vetoed by Timmy "The Eyebrow" Kaine. Both candidates for Governor (McDonnell & Deeds) have supported overturning the ban.
Mark, I've been a member since they started. I support 99% of what they do.
My problem with the proponents of open carry is that many of them come off as zealots, and I have no use for zealotry in any shape. Many do it just to get a "rise" or a reaction out of someone so that they can then prothelitize to them.
That's my big issue I guess.
"Open Carry", or carrying a firearms openly.....is stupid.
Am I glad it's legal in VA? Yes. Have I done it? Yes, usually during a lunch break from a training class.
I'm with Carlos on this....I love how effective VCDL is, but their promotion of open carry is just....I can't support it.
Reasonable people can have differing points of view.
The VCDL supports peoples ability to carry. They NEVER promote open or concealed. Just your right TO carry....
Mark, I've been a member since they started. I support 99% of what they do.
My problem with the proponents of open carry is that many of them come off as zealots, and I have no use for zealotry in any shape. Many do it just to get a "rise" or a reaction out of someone so that they can then prothelitize to them.
That's my big issue I guess.
I have never supported the 'guy in an ice cream suit with a Glock' method of activism.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-09, 08:52
I have never supported the 'guy in an ice cream suit with a Glock' method of activism.
http://www.merryswankster.com/images/BDD_JB_31_homers.jpg
Duh, he'd never be able to get to his OC holster. He'd have to draw from his ITICS holster and shoot from inside the suit.
Duh, he'd never be able to get to his OC holster. He'd have to draw from his ITICS holster and shoot from inside the suit.
Not quite the suit I was meaning, but I guess I should have been clearer.... :D
My problem with the proponents of open carry is that many of them come off as zealots, and I have no use for zealotry in any shape. Many do it just to get a "rise" or a reaction out of someone so that they can then prothelitize to them.
The VCDL supports peoples ability to carry. They NEVER promote open or concealed. Just your right TO carry....
I disagree. At least, if not in word, than in deed. I think the perception is that VCDL has become (by association) an organization that promotes open carry. They do it by defending these guys who get harassed by police *repeatedly* for OC. They do it by exclaiming loudly, to anyone that will listen, that banning CCW in places that serve alcohol is dumb because Virginians can open carry there.
And rightly so. They do a good job of it also.
But if guys would get the hint and stop OC the first time they're hassled (or maybe not do it at all), and VA would get over this stupid legal fiery hoop they're making gun owners jump through, that perception would change.
I know, OC is legal, a right deferred is a right denied, blah blah. I think we all agree on the appropriateness of OC, and that's all I'm going to say about it.
i open carry when I'm supposed to...which is to say when I go to restaurants that serve alcohol...or if I'm going to work i guess....
having said that....I hate going to restaurants open carrying...(and maybe sometimes I forget to open carry, who can say)...I want my dining experience to be about my family and...well...dinner
i guess I am just a little too paranoid not to carry at all...
so that leaves me in a but of a pickle...
I also agree with the zealotry post...one of the reasons I would prefer to not open carry is the association with the people who get WAY TOO BUTT HURT because a cop asks to see ID or something else relatively innocuous...
the difference is many of these guys INVITE confrontation...go looking for it...I can't tell you the number of times I read a thread about "x got stopped in Y town" and the response is "LETS ALL GO TO Y TOWN OPEN CARRYING!!! THAT WILL SHOW THEM!!!"
religion, politics, guns, you name it...I don't like people who want to throw their beliefs in my face...and that is what a lot of the OC folks tend to do...it may just be a small percentage...but a vocal, irritating minority can really **** things up for the silent majority
decodeddiesel
07-21-09, 09:46
"Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable."
:rolleyes:
I know. What a douche bag.
I think we all agree on the appropriateness of OC, and that's all I'm going to say about it.
Is that, OC when and where appropriate is wholly and completely reasonable? I rather cherish the right to carry openly, concealed, or semi-concealed depending on where I am going, what I am doing and how the weather is. Everything has its time and place. I am thankful that MN's law is written the way it is, that carry open or concealed in an alcohol establishment is perfectly legal so long as the BAC stays below 1/2 the legal limit for driving . . . one glass of wine with a dinner, one beer with a burger is perfectly legal & I think that is a perfectly reasonable way to write a law. I don't understand what the states that require open carry in alcohol establishments are trying to accomplish. What is the intended objective of writting a law that way?
I support everyone's right to carry whether they choose CC or OC but announcing it in a restaurant is a little too much grandstanding for me and definitely has the potential to backfire on the OC advocates, whether legal or not.
There are people who are waiting on CC permits that may choose to OC in the mean time so that they can protect themselves. They may also choose not to be treated like a criminal i.e. photographed, fingerprinted, asking permission and made to pay extra taxes & fees to CC and protect themselves. I vote for states adopting Vermont style carry and eliminating alot of these issues for alot of people.
I disagree. At least, if not in word, than in deed. I think the perception is that VCDL has become (by association) an organization that promotes open carry. They do it by defending these guys who get harassed by police *repeatedly* for OC. They do it by exclaiming loudly, to anyone that will listen, that banning CCW in places that serve alcohol is dumb because Virginians can open carry there.
And rightly so. They do a good job of it also.
But if guys would get the hint and stop OC the first time they're hassled (or maybe not do it at all), and VA would get over this stupid legal fiery hoop they're making gun owners jump through, that perception would change.
I know, OC is legal, a right deferred is a right denied, blah blah. I think we all agree on the appropriateness of OC, and that's all I'm going to say about it.
That is because seldom do you see (ever have you seen?) a concealed carry holder stopped for a visible gun.
If they are an open carry group then how come they have fought so hard to get the requirement to open carry in an eatery overturned?
I will not touch the cop requiring ID issue as that has nothing to do with the VCDL and their support of carry either open or concealed and since they do not take a stand on the issue I will not interject my feelings either agreeing or disagreeing in this thread.
That is because seldom do you see (ever have you seen?) a concealed carry holder stopped for a visible gun.
If they are an open carry group then how come they have fought so hard to get the requirement to open carry in an eatery overturned?
I will not touch the cop requiring ID issue as that has nothing to do with the VCDL and their support of carry either open or concealed and since they do not take a stand on the issue I will not interject my feelings either agreeing or disagreeing in this thread.
First off, welcome to the forum, I mean that sincerely. I hadn't wanted this to turn into a "bash VCDL fest", because VCDL does indeed do outstanding work and the people involved are outstanding people...
....however, just going on the updates that PVC sends out to me I would say that what you've posted is not the case. VCDL routinely advocates not showing ID to uniformed LE, and I know that PVC also routinely speeks at OpenCarry.org events.
First off, welcome to the forum, I mean that sincerely. I hadn't wanted this to turn into a "bash VCDL fest", because VCDL does indeed do outstanding work and the people involved are outstanding people...
....however, just going on the updates that PVC sends out to me I would say that what you've posted is not the case. VCDL routinely advocates not showing ID to uniformed LE, and I know that PVC also routinely speeks at OpenCarry.org events.
Again, I will not comment on the ID thing...
As to the other, he speaks as much as he can as many places as he can. It just so happens that the two co-managers of OCdO are both executive members of the VCDL and they, or their users, ask often.
If M4Carbine.net had an event and he could make it I am sure that he would.
QuietShootr
07-21-09, 20:43
I don't understand how you can be against OC and be pro-carry at all. I think, like motorcycle helmets, it should be the individual's choice whether to OC or CC.
I normally don't OC in Indianapolis, but in rural areas I occasionally do if it's really hot. Yes, they may target me if they see me wearing a gun, but I'm in Yellow, and OCing cuts my 'react to stimulus and present' time to under a second. I'll give up a little possible surprise advantage for the undeniable speed and accessibility advantage of OC if I'm in a place that it won't call undue attention to myself.
I think in close proximity to unknowns, CC is better. But you see the point? I switch modes depending on surroundings and threat level.
Side note: I love Indiana. I was in Applebee's in Plainfield about a year ago, and a well-dressed young guy came in and sat at the bar with some kind of Glock on his hip. The Nervous Nellie manager called the Plainfield police, and the dispatcher asked (we could overhear the conversation from where we sat)
"This is Applebee's - there's a guy in here at the bar with a gun!"
"What's he doing, sir?"
"He's in here with a gun!"
"Yes, but what's he doing?"
"Well, now, he's eating. Can you send someone over here?"
"How about if you call us when he does something. Sir, that's not against the law."
"Are you kidding?!?! A guy can just walk in here with a gun?"
"Yes, sir."
"This is bullshit." <hangs up>.
IMO, if people would get USED to seeing GOOD people carrying guns, the general fear level would go down.
EvilSpeculator556
07-21-09, 22:14
It's so nutty all the different approaches that various states have to this. In AZ you can't carry anywhere that they serve alcohol for consumption... open or concealed.
They tried to get concealed carry passed for Alcohol establishments too, but it got vetoed or some shit. I couldn't care less... I take my gun everywhere anyway.
It is sort of like saying if you drove a car to town you cannot go in a bar.
30 cal slut
07-21-09, 22:33
VCDL Rocks!
Yeah. When Carlos dumped his membership, I signed up in his stead. :D
And I don't even live in VA.
Except when I'm stuck in that damn !@#$ing beltway traffic.
Awesome Slut - when your membership runs out, I will buy you one slut.
VCDL rocks! THIS IS WHAT GRASS ROOTS IS ALL ABOUT! These guys have gotten quite a bit accomplished and politicians have hurt to ignore them or go against them. Devolites, a local senator republican anit-gun supported by bloomberg comes to mind.
I am not one of the OC zealots - for what I do, concealed is what has to happen, but I support everyone else's rights to do so. Yes - it can cause a gasp of some soccer mom, but then again it garners a "thats cool" from others. It is a fine line between wanting to win folks to our side, hide in the shadows, and drive folks against us. OBH seems to be helping our cause is some F'd up type of way. Right now our biggest enemy is our government trying to push some international treat and/or some BS wacko shooting up a bunch of kids or LEOs. Past the PR some will use an incident like this to promote their own political agenda, well, you know the rest.
"An armed society is a polite society."
You mean to tell me that you guys ( in virginia ) don't carry your gun concealed into a bar because there's a law against it?
Very interesting. :)
You mean to tell me that you guys ( in virginia ) don't carry your gun concealed into a bar because there's a law against it?
Very interesting. :)
No, Actually we do not carry into bars because there are no bars in Virginia. :)
30 cal slut
07-22-09, 06:46
You mean to tell me that you guys ( in virginia ) don't carry your gun concealed into a bar because there's a law against it?
Very interesting. :)
I was informed by one of the mods here (who shall remain nameless) that a violation of the law forbidding concealed carry into a bar / restaurant that serves alcohol in VA ... has yet to be enforced.
Interesting cultural differences.
Is this the same in NC, where you basically can't carry anywhere? :rolleyes:
30 cal slut
07-22-09, 06:53
THIS IS WHAT GRASS ROOTS IS ALL ABOUT!
Hell yeah.
I understand the controversy regarding open carry.
I've tried it myself a few times in VA. Nobody bothered me, but I wasn't OC'ing in NoVA. :p
I won't reduce VCDL solely to a bunch of OC zealots, however.
They are 2A fanatics, and frankly, in this day and age, when dealing with the dark forces of ever-encroaching socialist fascism, you need a little extremism in the defense of liberty.
If we had, say 1,000 very active VCDL members move to my home state ... can you imagine how much better things would be? AWB? Hah! :(
If we could clone 100,000 VCDL members and tranplant them to NYC, we wouldn't have to be dealing with Schumer hitting the fan every time a gun bill comes up in Congress.
I admire the hell out of VCDL! From an out of stater's perspective, VA guys have it good! Don't take it for granted. Ever.
Okay, I'm off my soap box.
Robb Jensen
07-22-09, 06:57
"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."--Benjamin Franklin
Let me give an example of this open carry thing being a negative.
We have a group of goofballs here in AZ who are doing these dinners. One of the lead idiots chose to open carry an AR pistol to the event.
I'm far from anti open carry... but the "assless chaps" tactics aren't helpful. We have an exceptionally idiotic cut of shooter here in AZ for whatever reason. :(
Funny we have had an AR Pistol carried to one of our open carry breakfasts and it was 100% non-issue. Just what makes the AR an "unacceptable" open carry option? Would a silhouette pistol be just as "asslesschaps" or was it something other than overall length that got you bothered? Vote for any assault weapons bans lately?
If people are carrying within the law, I support it. I get a little bothered when I hear the various factions within the shooting and carry comunities attacking each other, doing the anti's work for them. Some states have their laws written better than other states & there are a few states where the residents still aren't citizens (like IL) . . . we need to be supportive of all forward movement. Every bit of forward movement in one segment is a bit of momentum the rest of the gun communities can use to move forward. Like a flock of geese, VCDL has had point and it is obvious they are pulling their weight. Perhaps another group of activists will step up and push a little further. It wasn't any one group of activists that got us from where we were in '86 as a nation of citizens to where we are now. I am sure thankful for the groups that have taken their turn at point though.
Funny we have had an AR Pistol carried to one of our open carry breakfasts and it was 100% non-issue. Just what makes the AR an "unacceptable" open carry option? Would a silhouette pistol be just as "asslesschaps" or was it something other than overall length that got you bothered? Vote for any assault weapons bans lately?
You'd make an excellent ARFcom member. Idiots like my example above are probably a great catalysts for future assault weapons legislation... at least they'd help drum up some grass roots support for it.
First. An AR15 pistol is ****ing retarded regardless if some idiot wants to take it beyond a ridiculous range toy and carry it on his hip like a moron.
Second. It makes all gun owners look like goofballs in the eyes of folks who are neutral or negative towards CCW, open carry, or any responsible gun ownership.
The peckerhead in question was quoted as wanting to "scare the sheep". The gun realm doesn't need idiots like this. And this guy is a classic example of my theory that GUNS ATTRACT RETARDS.
I agree wholeheartedly that an AR pistol is seriously frickin' stupid to OC. I'm not against open carry and yet any person who strapped an AR on should get kicked in the junk! Not only does it defeat any legitimate purpose that OC'ing might have, it also scares the bejeezus out of people who might've remained neutral or supportive if the person were carrying a more conventional sidearm.
Along with the AR pistol maybe they should wear all black with their pants tucked into 18" high leather boots, a trench coat and mirrored sunglasses with metal spikes all over their clothing... effin' idiots, use a little common sense!
I have opened carried in VA many times (at restaurants, Wal-Mart, etc). No one ever paid any attention and if they did, they most likely assumed that I was the 5.0.
I would NOT stand up in a restaurant and announce that I am armed.
What I like about open carry is that it is a show of force. Meaning that if someone is intending on doing you harm (car jacking, robbery, etc) and see the gun, they are most likely going to pass on you (as you are a hard target).
Ohioans are much more rigid than southerners about seeing a gun being open carried. I have asked several of the local PD's what they would do if they saw me walking down the street with a HG strapped to my hip. They basically BEGGED me not to do it or to do it when they are not on duty.
C4
decodeddiesel
07-22-09, 12:45
OC AR pistol = :rolleyes:
RogerinTPA
07-22-09, 12:48
Let me give an example of this open carry thing being a negative.
We have a group of goofballs here in AZ who are doing these dinners. One of the lead idiots chose to open carry an AR pistol to the event.
I'm far from anti open carry... but the "assless chaps" tactics aren't helpful. We have an exceptionally idiotic cut of shooter here in AZ for whatever reason. :(
When I lived in AZ (Fort Huachuca/Sierra Vista) for a couple of years, I didn't see A/C(Assless Chaps) tactics being displayed. It must be a recent gay fad or something, obviously trying to assert power. Like a "Girls Rule" kinda thing.:p
....however, just going on the updates that PVC sends out to me I would say that what you've posted is not the case. VCDL routinely advocates not showing ID to uniformed LE, and I know that PVC also routinely speeks at OpenCarry.org events.
OK, I have looked and I cannot find what you saw. Can you find where it shows that "VCDL routinely advocates not showing ID to uniformed LE"?
I cannot seem to locate it.
And again, Philip will speak where ever he can....pushing those gun rights!
I generally support the VCDL efforts.
1. In order to disprove Saslaw, there is no public announcement necessary. A video of NO DISTURBANCE whatsoever would be proof enough. Multiply it by several restaurants, and you've got video evidence that he can't dispute.
2. When people are told, via an odd announcement during a meal at a public restaurant, that there are 10+ people armed sitting amongst them I can't imagine people who DO disagree taking that as an invitation to speak up. Seriously bad self-preservation instincts.
3. In order to comply with Virginia Law, I have open carried into a restaurant that served alcohol. Choices were: A) Leave it in my truck glovebox. B) Carry concealed and hope no one noticed and ratted me out. C) Leave it in the hotel room. D) Carry concealed up to the door of the restaurant then take cover off and open carry inside.
Not my tactically preferred method, but I'd rather have a gun on then a gun in the truck or in the hotel.
AR pistols are gay. End of message.
I generally support the VCDL efforts.
1. In order to disprove Saslaw, there is not public announcement necessary. A video of NO DISTURBANCE whatsoever would be proof enough. Multiply it by several restaurants, and you've got video evidence that he can't dispute.
2. When people are told, via an odd announcement during a meal at a public restaurant, that there are 10+ people armed sitting amongst them I can't imagine people who DO disagree taking that as an invitation to speak up. Seriously bad self-preservation instincts.
3. In order to comply with Virginia Law, I have open carried into a restaurant that served alcohol. Choices were: A) Leave it in my truck glovebox. B) Carry concealed and hope no one noticed and ratted me out. C) Leave it in the hotel room. D) Carry concealed up to the door of the restaurant then take cover off and open carry inside.
Not my tactically preferred method, but I'd rather have a gun on then a gun in the truck or in the hotel.
How can the video itself, with nothing else, be proof? I could get a video at any eatery and just show 1 to 1000 people eating. How would Banjo Dick have known what was happening? What are the chances of believing it if it was narrated? Pretty low I would say! You have to remember, this is the same numb-... that said "We must be discussing gun laws today. Half the cast of Deliverance is in town" with one of the VCDL EMs IN THE ELEVATOR! Remember, this guy is an elitist that needs it spoon fed to him or he will not believe it.
As to item two...well I guess I am willing to take that chance for your rights. There are LOTS of things I would not do if I was tactically sound, but I would rather further gun rights for you, me, and others then to always tactically sound.
See Jer. 20:9. I will let you 'tweak' it to make it appropriate for this conversation
:D
You may have misunderstood...
A person who hates guns with an absolute passion is not going to stand up after your announcement in Champs and say, "I hate all you guntoting rednecks, and I think you all should rot in hell!!! How dare you endanger me and my family?"
To do so would be very poor instincts, wouldn't it? Typically, the sheep will continue to say nothing, or hate us in private. Right up until we the "gun guys" are needed to get their asses out of a tight spot.
Further, a video camera has a zoom feature, and if shot correctly a post-processing edit can add highlights and arrows, and zoom circles to show guns being open carried, 100's of people all around one another, and not a single disturbance of any kind taking place. Including the absence of an odd announcement in the middle of a meal @ a public restaurant. FWIW, I would have considered the "gun guys", WITH the announcement, an interruption of my meal -- and I'm completely on your side.
We don't have to agree on the methods, but I offer my viewpoint neutrally.
You may have misunderstood...
A person who hates guns with an absolute passion is not going to stand up after your announcement in Champs and say, "I hate all you guntoting rednecks, and I think you all should rot in hell!!! How dare you endanger me and my family?"
To do so would be very poor instincts, wouldn't it? Typically, the sheep will continue to say nothing, or hate us in private. Right up until we the "gun guys" are needed to get their asses out of a tight spot.
Further, a video camera has a zoom feature, and if shot correctly a post-processing edit can add highlights and arrows, and zoom circles to show guns being open carried, 100's of people all around one another, and not a single disturbance of any kind taking place. Including the absence of an odd announcement in the middle of a meal @ a public restaurant. FWIW, I would have considered the "gun guys", WITH the announcement, an interruption of my meal -- and I'm completely on your side.
We don't have to agree on the methods, but I offer my viewpoint neutrally.
Your post clarifies much, but I think we will have to disagree. I think to get the kind of shots you are talking about it would almost have to be staged to show the volume and diversity of the gun carrying public.
Oh, and as to the other...I would disagree there also. Sheep will get in your face. I would agree that it does not happen often, but I have had it happen to me. I would refer to them as the 'rabid sheep' and they have not enough sense to know fear....
Shadow1198
07-22-09, 20:03
I support OC for the sole reason that I am sick and goddamn tired of shit in this country being made illegal because someone can't enumerate any "reasonable" (reasonable in the minds of politicians) purposes why OC is necessary. Why? Because I goddamn want to, and that's good enough. ;) Necessity is not what this country is about, and legislating in that manner is actually 180 degrees the opposite of the original intentions behind creating this country. I can't see myself ever OC'ing as I think it is a tactical advantage to conceal carry, but I still think people should be able to carry however they want to. [/rant off] ;)
Jay Cunningham
07-22-09, 20:17
As to item two...well I guess I am willing to take that chance for your rights.
Toning down the self-righteousness may win you more converts...
Toning down the self-righteousness may win you more converts...
Did not think I was being self-righteous. Maybe you are right, but when I see the hunters not defending the collectors or the collectors not defending the target shooters or the target shooters not defending...well you get the point... It just annoys me.
OK so they guy with the AR handgun may have been over the top, but he is on OUR side and folks seem to forget that. Would people rather have that dedication on the other side fighting against us? Hey, some are saying I was over the top for standing up in an eatery to get a better video to help make an anti-gun knucklehead wake up.
Heck go talk to the 'over the top' brother in arms and let him know that his choice may be impacting the very thing he is trying to defend. I remember asking one guy that carried a DE .50 as a concealed gun "What? Are you an idiot?" and he responded "No, I need it. I do automotive recovery and so many people see folks get shot and get right up on TV that they are not afraid of my Glock, but this gets their attention." So what I thought foolish really may not have been. He, as his rights allow, made a decision based on his needs.
I have no doubt that many of us have needed a dressing down al least once in our life. If you received it from a good friend, you are lucky.
Good LORD! Just think of the strides we could make if gun owners would see it all as their right and not just respond for their little fragment of it when it gets threatened!
Let's just agree to keep focusing on getting the restaurant carry language changed which then makes this a moot point.
I'll keep looking the other way if/when you interrupt a meal of mine. :D
Turning down the heat seems like a good thing.
I'm learning something ( new info ) about things in Va that help me to understand the situation in the state where I live now.
ETA:
I was surprised by some of the carry restrictions -- but I hope that most of them become moot over the next few years.
In my state the "OC Movement" and the rigid zeal that goes with it seems to be mostly a problem rather than part of any real world solution.
Let's just agree to keep focusing on getting the restaurant carry language changed which then makes this a moot point.
I'll keep looking the other way if/when you interrupt a meal of mine. :D
Point made.
In my state the "OC Movement" and the rigid zeal that goes with it seems to be mostly a problem rather than part of any real world solution.
That's my experience too.
As I said, I dislike zealots of any persuasion.
Chris Rock has some friendly advice about traffic stop behavior.
Seems like the the same general ideas might apply to people who carry and transport guns. YKWIM , just be nice when a government employee is doing a job -- it makes the encounter more pleasant for everybody.
Warning --Anglo-Saxon R rated words.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs
Heavy Metal
07-26-09, 10:46
I OC'd in VA yesterday!!!......................................of course I was hiking in the woods where I didn't see another human soul and was doing so because I left my CCW holsters at my APT................
OC has its place but I try and minimize it.
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