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I want to add a plain AK in 7.62x39 to my collection this year. Eventually I want to give it a nice wood stock set from Ironwood Designs. I don't want anything beyond that at this point. I seem to recall that the Arsenal Inc rifles were the choice for a top shelf rifle in the past. What about these days? I see some Interordnance AKs claiming to be from Poland...are they a worthy alternative or should I just stick with an Arsenal gun?
Grizzlyatoms
01-05-14, 23:29
Arsenal are good, but WAY Overpriced.
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I'm also looking for an AK this year. I've read good things about the zastava pap m70 but no one I know has one for me to try out.
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Arsenal are good, but WAY Overpriced.
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Well all AKs in the US are overpriced considering the actual mfg cost of one when you have no .gov BS. Unfortunately we have a lot of red tape that stands between us and guns. So what makes the Arsenal guns overpriced compared to other AKs that are available? What is a more cost effective option? I don't mind dropping the money on an Arsenal but if there is a more efficient use of my money as far as AK rifles go I would like to know about it.
Grizzlyatoms
01-05-14, 23:47
$1k+ for an AK, No Thank You. I would build/buy another 300 Blackout. I do think everyone should have at least 1 AK.
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Those Polish rifles from Radom are not true military rifles but made at a factory that bought the name, much like Springfield in IL isn't the Springfield Armory that made the M-14.
Arsenal SGL (Russian) or SLR (Bulgarian) series rifles are generally the best current option but priced accordingly.
Everything else is a parts gun or a sporter imported and reconfigured for 922r compliance. In nearly every case that includes a US made barrel which you don't want. Some of the Yugos have factory barrels but they aren't chrome lined and for me that is a deal breaker.
My advice is to try and hunt down a Romanian SAR 1 on GB or AK Forums. You can still find these in the $650 range and they are an excellent candidate for upgrades.
jamesavery22
01-06-14, 09:42
It seems an expensive AK is frowned upon. An AK with a US made barrel is frowned upon. I agree.
I'm surprised no one has directly mentioned the Saiga.
Yes it is an import that requires work and 922r compliance.
It IS a Russian made AK. Barrel, receiver, bolt, trunnions, etc...
The days of an abundance of $300 Saigas are gone but not to an extreme. They are on gunbroker frequently enough for there to be one for $500 shipped ending in 2 hours at the time of this post.
All that being said they need work. G2, buttstock, pistol grip, dinzag bullet guide at a minimum.
For anyone that's done a kit build it is next to no work. For someone who has little to no tools... might be a little much.
http://i53.tinypic.com/24ccp78.jpg
Not sure if this is a path you want or should take. It's a solid option that should be mentioned.
Those Polish rifles from Radom are not true military rifles but made at a factory that bought the name, much like Springfield in IL isn't the Springfield Armory that made the M-14
Eh that's what I figured just needed the confirmation.
I prefer a turn-key rifle out of the box vs. converting a Saiga and all that jazz so I will probably going with Arsenal in the end.
Good input from the gents on this thread. If you really want an AK, do some reading. You CAN get an Arsenal for $1k right now - even with a nice folding stock, and as an AK goes they are 'kinda' the Colt of this world - not QUITE, as they still get their mag wells cut, etc.
Hit the guns shows and HANDLE some. Look at a SAR-1 as stated. They CAN be found for a decent price and are solid guns. I have a sweet/smooth Hungarian SA-85M and a SAR-1 that shoots just as well and has less sight cant.
I would agree, that with Colts going for $1K and are in deed a proven battle rifle made JUST like the real deal in the same place, it is hard to figure an AK is worth the same - but that is the current market. Four years ago a Colt was $1200 and a Arsenal was $750.
Other options include getting lucky with a thumbhole Norinco for cheap and converting (very solid guns), or even a Hungarian, etc. Someone recently sold an Arsenal here on the EE for ~$800 - so stay alert.
jamesavery22
01-06-14, 10:55
The AK world in the states is drastically lacking in sources for good-to-go AKs out of the box.
Unless it's from a VERY reputable builder it is very likely any AK bought from any manufacturer will need some kind of work.
That includes Arsenal. I've seen some weird stuff come from them on brand new rifles. Some cosmetic, some bad craftsmanship, some functionality...
If someone wants a rifle that is completely solid out of the box I cannot think of anyone that can guarantee that other than rifle dynamics.
Then you get into the price conversation again.
WickedWillis
01-06-14, 11:41
The AK world in the states is drastically lacking in sources for good-to-go AKs out of the box.
Unless it's from a VERY reputable builder it is very likely any AK bought from any manufacturer will need some kind of work.
That includes Arsenal. I've seen some weird stuff come from them on brand new rifles. Some cosmetic, some bad craftsmanship, some functionality...
If someone wants a rifle that is completely solid out of the box I cannot think of anyone that can guarantee that other than rifle dynamics.
Then you get into the price conversation again.
I have heard several good things about the new Century arms (I know) Centurion 39. It's a milled AK and 100% American made. Have you heard anything or handled one? I've seen them going for anywhere from $650 to 1K. Just curious if you had an opinion there.
jamesavery22
01-06-14, 12:00
I have heard several good things about the new Century arms (I know) Centurion 39. It's a milled AK and 100% American made. Have you heard anything or handled one? I've seen them going for anywhere from $650 to 1K. Just curious if you had an opinion there.
Never handled one. I've read it does not have a chrome lined barrel. Is that a huge deal? It can be argued. There are plenty of just as cheap if not less expensive options that do have a chrome lined barrel. That makes me discount anything that doesn't have one.
You can always replace or fix poor furniture, sights, triggers etc. You can't chrome line a barrel.
Flankenstein
01-06-14, 12:04
If you can swallow the 1k price tag I think the SLR 107 is your best bet
If you can swallow the 1k price tag I think the SLR 107 is your best bet
That's what it's looking like. I would love to have a Rifle Dynamics one but I cannot stomach paying $2200 and waiting 8 months for one. Nope.
Hit the shows/shops - examine in person, and know what it is. A good WASR with straight sights and a well done mag well at a reasonable price is a good starter. It is kinda scary that you CAN spend a grand on an Arsenal and have function issues on an AK.
I looked over a SAR recently that I could NOT pass up - too good - and it proved to be true.
O-Pap for 565.00 is a deal. Now before you all flip out on me let me just preface this with, "if your intention is to make this some sort of quasi survival, get pooped on AK", it works fine in that role.
I have own/owned Krebs, INRANGE, Vepr, Arsenal, Norinco, Polytech, various Tantals, Jim Roberts kits, yadda yadda yadda for reference in case you think im some O-Pap fanboy. Largest caveat, as Steyr mentioned is lack of chrome lining...not too bad for me since I shoot newer 7.62 or just do the hot water if I shoot surp. Just whatever your into...
I would second sadmin as this is a high quality AK at a good price. It's just heavy. Having said that, I used to have a Yugo CAI build that was smooth as silk and WAY accurate - even with a GM barrel. I suspect that a real Serbian build and CHF barrel would be solid kit. If that gun had been a fixed stock, I may have kept it. I do like shooting with the Yugo UF, but it will get hung up too easily. Slap on an Utimak and you have a smokin accurate gun.
Avoid IO guns at all costs.
If you can handle a WASR10 in person and it's less than $650, you're doing OK. WASR10s are solid guns if you can find a properly built specimen. I just picked one up after examining it for straight sights, rivets, non-binding receiver rails, etc. It's a good shooter but I wouldn't buy one I couldn't check out first.
Never handled one. I've read it does not have a chrome lined barrel. Is that a huge deal? It can be argued. There are plenty of just as cheap if not less expensive options that do have a chrome lined barrel. That makes me discount anything that doesn't have one.
Be aware that there are some US made chrome lined barrels being offered on CAI guns and similar. The problem is that it is still a US made barrel and chrome lined or not, they usually have issues. They are built cheap so that the cost of the gun can be cheap.
I'm surprised no one has thrown VEPR out there. Very sturdy, chrome lined, Russian made. Can be had for around $700. Conversions are much easier now with the straight back receiver.
MadAngler1
01-06-14, 18:01
I owned a modified SAR-2 I purchased way back in 2002, that Chris Butler of AK-USA spiced up for me:
22552
I also have some trigger time behind various Bulgarian, Chinese and Russian variants.
Regardless, as it stands now in 2014, I would take a hard look at a Saiga or VEPR, and then save up cash to have it modified down the road. AK-USA may still be in business as well, and Chris Butler does some great work. He converts Saigas, and really made my monkey assembled Century Arms SAR-2 into a nice rifle. There may be some other kit guns not mentioned that would suffice as well, but if it were my money, I'd buy a Russian import and then have it converted (Saiga or VEPR). Both are chrome lined and very well made.
REdruM0351
01-06-14, 18:36
Anyone here own/ have fired a Krebs KV-13? If so what is your impression ? I would not mind a detailed opinion on this weapon.
WickedWillis
01-06-14, 18:43
Anyone here own/ have fired a Krebs KV-13? If so what is your impression ? I would not mind a detailed opinion on this weapon.
Mrgunsngear is an active member of M4C and does fantastic videos. If you are curious about this rifle this should answer your questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkE8HDowG3c
REdruM0351
01-06-14, 19:18
Mrgunsngear is an active member of M4C and does fantastic videos. If you are curious about this rifle this should answer your questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkE8HDowG3c
That was just awesome yea I want it !!
plouffedaddy
01-06-14, 20:50
Mrgunsngear is an active member of M4C and does fantastic videos. If you are curious about this rifle this should answer your questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkE8HDowG3c
Thank you. I embedded it below.
That was just awesome yea I want it !!
Pretty much sums it up---awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkE8HDowG3c
REdruM0351
01-06-14, 21:45
Great job btw!!! I can see you were really excited also lol.
I'm surprised no one has thrown VEPR out there. Very sturdy, chrome lined, Russian made. Can be had for around $700. Conversions are much easier now with the straight back receiver.
OP is looking for an "out of the box" rifle.
I'm also looking for an AK this year. I've read good things about the zastava pap m70 but no one I know has one for me to try out.
You can get a Serbian factory made N-PAP for $440.19 delivered. They have regular 1.0mm receivers, so they don't weight as much as the 1.5mm receivered O-PAPs.
http://www.firearmsforsale.com/century-inter-arms-inc/firearms/rifles/cent-zastava-npap-16.25in-7.62x39-black-syn-30rd/
This rifle is converted to hicap configuration here by Century. I have two along with a pretty extensive AK collection. No doubt in my mind that these are the best deal going right now when it comes to AK's. You have to use the coupon code "Five-off" to get the $440.19 delivered price. The good thing about this price is there's really no downside.
So what makes the Arsenal guns overpriced compared to other AKs that are available? What is a more cost effective option? I don't mind dropping the money on an Arsenal but if there is a more efficient use of my money as far as AK rifles go I would like to know about it.
Having been the recipient of two Arsenal AK's that Arsenal couldn't fix (refunded my money) and another that they were able to fix, I can tell you from personal experience that their quality is no better than Century's. Their customer service can best be described as painful. What Arsenal does offer is particular AK models that others don't. If you're interested in a particular configuration, then Arsenal might be where you can get it. If you just want a good basic AK, I think there are much better options. You can get postban Chinese rifles for significantly less than Arsenals sell for. Their quality is just plain better.
I'm surprised no one has thrown VEPR out there. Very sturdy, chrome lined, Russian made. Can be had for around $700. Conversions are much easier now with the straight back receiver.
I think this is another excellent option. They are definitely high quality. The only downside is the weight (like the O-PAPs). They offer Veprs in 5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 308Win and 7.62x54R. You can buy a square back receiver Vepr and add this from Ironwood:
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDNEWRPK2.html
Or, you can buy an angle cut receiver Vepr and add this SVD style stock set from Ironwood:
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDVEPRSVD.html
Having been the recipient of two Arsenal AK's that Arsenal couldn't fix (refunded my money) and another that they were able to fix, I can tell you from personal experience that their quality is no better than Century's.
So you are saying that US made barrels in CAI rifles are of comparable quality to factory Russian and Bulgarian barrels in Arsenal rifles?
The fact that you got a couple lemon rifles (uncommon) hardly makes them "no better" than CAI who is world famous for shitty rifles. Arsenal rifles with problems are as unique as CAI built rifles that have "no problems." It happens, but it's not typical.
What I don't understand is why Arsenal simply didn't replace your problem rifle that they couldn't correct.
I probably have sold almost 100 Arsenals over the years and not one of them had any issues. I can hardly say the same for CAI built rifles. The exception of course being things like SAR rifles where CAI didn't really build them but imported them and swaped out some parts for compliance.
I'd second the notion of a KV-13
Fantastic rifles.
That's what it's looking like. I would love to have a Rifle Dynamics one but I cannot stomach paying $2200 and waiting 8 months for one. Nope.
I had a RD AK. Very nice gun, but I had it done up back when you could get ak parts and builds at a reasonable price. There is no way on earth I would ever pay 2200 for and AK. The RD AK was the nicest AK I ever owned, but at the end of the day it was still and AK and really could not do much more then my WASR 10. Todays AK market is a wash. The whole point of the gun is it is supposed to be a cheap, easy to use, reliable gun. Well, they are no longer cheap, and a lot of the companies making them hinder the reliablilty part. I will always love AKs and I know how to run one pretty good, but I don't know if I will invest in one again.
I had a RD AK. Very nice gun, but I had it done up back when you could get ak parts and builds at a reasonable price. There is no way on earth I would ever pay 2200 for and AK. The RD AK was the nicest AK I ever owned, but at the end of the day it was still and AK and really could not do much more then my WASR 10. Todays AK market is a wash. The whole point of the gun is it is supposed to be a cheap, easy to use, reliable gun. Well, they are no longer cheap, and a lot of the companies making them hinder the reliablilty part. I will always love AKs and I know how to run one pretty good, but I don't know if I will invest in one again.
QFT, I agree. Unless your of a collecting mind, there is a point at which your spending too much for what your going to get as a shooter. My Krebs and Mitchell Arms are beautiful guns but unfortunately they group, shoot, & cycle the same as my Bulgarian circle 21 kit gun which was 1500 cheaper. It was easy for me to get looped into trying to "buy" tighter groups, thinking I would end up dropping 3k and have some rare gem. Goofy I know but I'm a goofball.
Arsenals = CAI? Negative... I have to agree you must have gotten Oleg in QCs last 2 sign offs on his retirement day.
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So you are saying that US made barrels in CAI rifles are of comparable quality to factory Russian and Bulgarian barrels in Arsenal rifles?
No. I'm saying that the quality of Arsenals conversion of a factory made Bulgarian rifle is no better than CAI's conversion of a factory made Serbian rifle. Three of three Arsenal AK's that I purchased had to go back. Two of six CAI AK's (4 PAP rifles a and two PAP pistols) had to go back. I don't own any CAI rifles made with US barrels.
The fact that you got a couple lemon rifles (uncommon) hardly makes them "no better" than CAI who is world famous for shitty rifles. Arsenal rifles with problems are as unique as CAI built rifles that have "no problems." It happens, but it's not typical.
I'm not saying my experience is typical. What I'm saying is that based on my experience it's incorrect to assume that Arsenal is the Colt of AK's even though they price their rifles accordingly.
What I don't understand is why Arsenal simply didn't replace your problem rifle that they couldn't correct.
Actually, to make a painful story short, one rifle went back for repair three times and the other twice. They did replace the first one with an identical used rifle that had an earlier serial number. It too had the same problem (so I guess you could technically say 4/4 had problems). They then refunded my money.
I'm not saying my experience is typical. What I'm saying is that based on my experience it's incorrect to assume that Arsenal is the Colt of AK's even though they price their rifles accordingly.
I do agree with this. They should be in the 600 range new. But dat demand and all....
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I do think the OP wants to stick to a whole/ready gun and one that is not too expensive - some good options have been mentioned and some very good insight is on this thread. I DO think a thorough search and 'inspect before you buy' approach could land a good converted MAK90, SAR1, (good) WASR, or used inspected Arsenal for a decent AK - even on this EE.
Those Polish rifles from Radom are not true military rifles but made at a factory that bought the name,
Not even that. They did not bought name. This company is Pioneer Arms, formed with US based capital. They are just located in city of Radom, that so happens to be also city where original "Łucznik" was located. It is like someone would think that "if it is made in Hartford, it must be Colt".
Company that bought name and "oval 11" logo (Works 11 ltd) is not located in Radom. Works 11 assemble (actually supply gunsmiths with kits) AK's with mil-spec parts made back in commie times, that they bought out after ZM "Łucznik" bankrupt.
jamesavery22
01-07-14, 09:48
I do think the OP wants to stick to a whole/ready gun and one that is not too expensive - some good options have been mentioned and some very good insight is on this thread. I DO think a thorough search and 'inspect before you buy' approach could land a good converted MAK90, SAR1, (good) WASR, or used inspected Arsenal for a decent AK - even on this EE.
Unfortunately I don't know if that exists. An in-expensive(<$1K) AK that needs no work out of the box.
There are multiple AK's mentioned here that are completely solid out of the box. I don't know of any <$1K.
When someone says "AK" I rarely think of this scenario. Or even the price. Just that it will need some work to be good enough for me. And I love that :)
I was searching on GB specifically for this OP to see what's out there. Some RD guns on there. Not the greatest price... There are still some kits w/ barrels, WASR's with the primary parts in good shape, brand new IZ-132s for <$500... Great deals. They just need work.
OP,
I would use theakforum.net and buy used.
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Roger - all would seem to need work except for a converted weapon - and some can be had under $1K. Again, I think a SAR 1 provides a GTG barrel, reciever, and excellently cut magwell - all you need. Do you REALLY need a muzzle brake on an AK? No. And... you can now buy them for less than a WASR. This is one example.
No. I'm saying that the quality of Arsenals conversion of a factory made Bulgarian rifle is no better than CAI's conversion of a factory made Serbian rifle. Three of three Arsenal AK's that I purchased had to go back. Two of six CAI AK's (4 PAP rifles a and two PAP pistols) had to go back. I don't own any CAI rifles made with US barrels.
That's a little different. I thought you were saying CAI guns are just as good as Arsenal guns.
But even then I think Arsenal does a much better job of spec'ing out the magazine well. Seen lots of choppy CAI jobs. Was your Arsenal rifle in question a 5.56 model?
Was your Arsenal rifle in question a 5.56 model?
Bingo! The two that they could not fix were an SLR-106UR and an SLR-106CR. Here are threads regarding the ordeal.
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/23-bulgarian/27224-arsenal-slr-106cr-range-report.html
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/23-bulgarian/45915-arsenal-slr-106cr-slr-106ur-range-report-video.html
The major problem with these rifles is the bottom of the bolt that passes between the magazine feed lips is only 0.040" less wide than the distance between the magazine feed lips. When everything doesn't line up perfectly, the cycle is interrupted. In the end I don't think that Arsenal, NV could really do anything about it because it's a design problem.
Here's a thread regarding the SLR-107UR I received with a buggered up FS/GB.
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/23-bulgarian/43375-buggered-up-slr-107ur-front-sight-gas-block.html
jamesavery22
01-07-14, 20:27
Piggy back!
Arsenal does some weird things. Really have to stress, unless the AK is from someone like RD it could need work.
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/17-krinkovs/96550-slr-107ur-canted-fsb.html
Specifically:
http://oi40.tinypic.com/9qy3gw.jpg
If the FSB had never been pressed off no one would ever had seen this. Still not kosher...
OP, I don't know how fixed you are on an AK. There is another excellent rifle that fires 7.62 x 39, said by some to be a better design than an AK. It is the VZ58 or the VZ2008 (made by Century).
Here it is: http://www.centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1554%2DX
They can be had for around $460.00. I have the VZ2008 and think it is a fine rifle. However, for me, it is an addition to my WASR 10/63 that has been flawless for me for years.
7.62WildBill
01-07-14, 21:29
If you want a basic AK to see if you like them, get a N-PAP or O-PAP. While I have the utmost respect for Steyr's fine collection minded advice, I think the lack of chrome lining is acceptable since us civilians have ample opportunity to clean our barrels. But if you are OK with a used gun, scan the local shops etc. for a MAK-90 or SAR. Good deals are out there.
Bingo! The two that they could not fix were an SLR-106UR and an SLR-106CR.
That seems to be a problem with the rifles not really being designed for 5.56 from the beginning but a case if 5.45 rifles converted to 5.56. Lots of "bolt face doesn't like the magazine feed" issues. Seems to be very common problem with those rifles.
If you want a basic AK to see if you like them, get a N-PAP or O-PAP. While I have the utmost respect for Steyr's fine collection minded advice, I think the lack of chrome lining is acceptable since us civilians have ample opportunity to clean our barrels. But if you are OK with a used gun, scan the local shops etc. for a MAK-90 or SAR. Good deals are out there.
Keep in mind it's an issue with me simply because I have more than a few AKs already. Mostly I was just making sure people know what is what and then it's their money to spend it as they like.
My most recent AK purchase was a Saiga IZ132 7.62x39. Picked it up from Atlantic for $470 shipped to my FFL. The conversion is done easily, and I'll have it where I want it for $700 total. For $700 total I'll have a RUSSIAN barrel, a RUSSIAN receiver, RUSSIAN bolt, etc.
My other is a Bulgarian build by Red Jacket. It's done well except for a slightly crooked gas block. I mean slightly, it took me mounting an ultimak to even notice it. It's got an original Bulgy Barrel, Bolt Carrier, etc. Its on a Nodak receiver. Not a bit of trouble out of it.
The reasons I skipped over the WASR, GP1970, OPAP, and NPAP:
1). US made barrels
2). Most deals are online. After my first Century rifle, I would never buy a Century product sight unseen and without inspecting it.
3) People in my area feel an AK is an AK, so $1,000 WASR's and Yugo rifles is not unheard of.
4) Yugo rifles are non standard. No using regular AKM furniture or Acc.
5) What I get for my money: a real "Russian" cobbled together in my garage vs a "copy" cobbled together in the US, with a us receiver, us barrel, etc.
I am not knocking AKM variants, but I'm buying the AK to last, I don't want buyers remorse. I'd buy an Arsenal, but can't stomach dropping over 1k to get it to my FFL's door. With the Saiga I'm getting a low cost startup. Spend a couple hundred more to convert the rear, add a bullet guide, slap a sling on, and a circle 10 mag. Pretty close to an SLR series rifle without dropping all the dough at one time. The rest of the money I'd save could buy a case and a half of quality 7.62x39.
Plus it gives me something to do while its freezing outside.
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7.62WildBill
01-08-14, 08:41
The Saiga is an excellent choice, but not "out of the box" as the OP asked. But as RMiller said the skill level of the conversion is basic and requires only a few tools.
However, I need to make a few corrections about the O-PAP. The O-PAP receiver and barrel are made in Serbia,at the Zastava factory. Yugo barrels just aren't chrome lined. With the recent large influx of Yugo rifles, more furniture options are becomung available.
US 922r parts on opap are
1. Pistol grip
2-4. Tapco trigger group
5. Gas piston
6. Muzzle brake
The Saiga is an excellent choice, but not "out of the box" as the OP asked. But as RMiller said the skill level of the conversion is basic and requires only a few tools.
However, I need to make a few corrections about the O-PAP. The O-PAP receiver and barrel are made in Serbia,at the Zastava factory. Yugo barrels just aren't chrome lined.
US 922r parts on opap are
1. Pistol grip
2-4. Tapco trigger group
5. Gas piston
6. Muzzle brake
Hey, thanks for the correction. I knew that. Just was a few sips into the morning coffee. I guess I should have finished before posting uncaffeinated. :)
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The PAP line barrels may not be chrome lined, but are CHF by folks who make good barrels. I do think the magwells are recut (not a plus), but the barrel/receiver are of good grade. You can put an Ultimak on, and it comes with a receiver mount bracket. not saying its on the level of a Vepr, but it has a reinforced receiver, and CHF barrel, and is already in a very useable configuration. They are not really just CAI builds.
If you buy a Saiga for $500 (include the transfer), who and how much to send it out for a professional build? I would guess you'd be into it $800 minimum?
O-Pap for 565.00 is a deal. Now before you all flip out on me let me just preface this with, "if your intention is to make this some sort of quasi survival, get pooped on AK", it works fine in that role.
I have own/owned Krebs, INRANGE, Vepr, Arsenal, Norinco, Polytech, various Tantals, Jim Roberts kits, yadda yadda yadda for reference in case you think im some O-Pap fanboy. Largest caveat, as Steyr mentioned is lack of chrome lining...not too bad for me since I shoot newer 7.62 or just do the hot water if I shoot surp. Just whatever your into...
I have an Arsenal SGL21 and I recently bought an O-PAP. The reason, the O-PAP is a pretty damn well made AK for the price. Far better than any WASR, and many of the other rifles in it's price range. The stamped receiver is 1.5mm thick instead of 1mm and this is obvious as you handle the weapon. It feels more substantial. This will contribute to accuracy and longevity. The barrel is a little heavier, which is nice as well.
BUT, there are a few things about the O-PAP.
First, the stocks look horrible because they are surplus. I've been cleaning mine up to see if I can get it to where I can refinish it. You mentioned that you are going to put Ironwood furniture on, they do make a set to fit. Ironwood O-PAP stocks - http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDNEWYUGO_2.html
Second, make sure the sight post/gas block is straight. They can be straightened, but a few have been known to be canted.
Third, the barrels are hammer forged (I believe), but NOT chrome lined. This is not a big deal IMHO, fighting rifles have been around for ages without chrome lining and I don't shoot corrosive ammo.
Last, the gas piston has been added by CAI for 922r compliance. And it is not pinned, nor is it loose (tilting) as it should be. This doesn't seem to be a problem although I'm going to have my FFL, who is an AK expert, modify it for me.
Anyway, if I had it all to do over, I would buy two O-PAPs, make the mods to them, and still save money over buying one Arsenal with medium grade optics.
That's my two cents.
BTW - I'm mainly an AR and SCAR guy but I own several AK pistols and now two AK rifles.
Sorry, I had one more thought as an alternative.
IF YOU LIVE IN A FREE STATE, think about getting a M92PV and converting to an SBR. This is a fine pistol. I've got lots of round through one of these and there are numerous CHEAP rifle conversions available.:dance3:
BUT, there are a few things about the O-PAP.
First, the stocks look horrible because they are surplus. I've been cleaning mine up to see if I can get it to where I can refinish it. You mentioned that you are going to put Ironwood furniture on, they do make a set to fit. Ironwood O-PAP stocks - http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/IWDNEWYUGO_2.html
Last, the gas piston has been added by CAI for 922r compliance. And it is not pinned, nor is it loose (tilting) as it should be. This doesn't seem to be a problem although I'm going to have my FFL, who is an AK expert, modify it for me.
You might consider buying an N-PAP that comes with the new plastic stock set. Because it has a US made buttstock, they don't change out the gas piston.
jamesavery22
01-10-14, 12:46
Might be a compromise since it's not a true out-of-the-box solution but find a build party in your state. Have someone reputable in your area build a Saiga for you. If you were in VA I'd volunteer.
Read this morning that the O-Pap will no longer be imported; if your on the fence, nows the time to pull the proverbial trigger.
MountainRaven
01-15-14, 09:30
Just so that everyone knows, the Arsenal SLR series is no longer compatible with the Krebs MkVI safety. Arsenal moved the rivets.
(Tested by me, verified by Krebs.)
So if you want the Krebs safety to work… good luck. I'm hoping to find something that will work with current SLRs but… we'll see. I'm pretty sure everybody else who used to make them no longer does. And even if they did, they probably won't work with the new, weirder SLRs.
Just Arsenal moved the rivets.
Which rivets did they move? I'm having a hard time visualizing where a rivet could be in the path of the safety. Can you take a picture?
Mauser KAR98K
01-15-14, 12:10
If you do not have a preference for caliber, a good Waffen Works AK-74 on the Nodak receivers are good. Have one, and it is one of the tightest AKs I have handled. American made chome lined barrel, though. The newer Waffens have their in house receivers, and there are reported problems.
If you want a 7.62X39, get an O-Pap. They are not being imported anymore.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8529/8667195477_8897dc91ea_b.jpg
If you want a 7.62X39, get an O-Pap. They are not being imported anymore.
Or an N-PAP. Pretty much the same as an O-PAP, but with a regular AKM receiver/trunnion instead of the RPK type.
Mauser KAR98K
01-15-14, 15:30
Or an N-PAP. Pretty much the same as an O-PAP, but with a regular AKM receiver/trunnion instead of the RPK type.
From my understanding, the N-Paps have the single stack bolt as the O-Paps do not.
From my understanding, the N-Paps have the single stack bolt as the O-Paps do not.
No. Some of the early N-PAP's had single stack bolts, but most and the current ones available have double stack bolts. Both of my N-PAP's have double stack bolts. I'm told all the O-PAP's have double stack bolts. The earlier PAP M70's had single stack bolts. The PAP M70's look like the O-PAP's, but they have new furniture.
MountainRaven
01-15-14, 19:33
Which rivets did they move? I'm having a hard time visualizing where a rivet could be in the path of the safety. Can you take a picture?
I don't know what all they moved, but there is a rivet above the magazine release that is interfering with the function of the Krebs safety. It wouldn't take much to mod it to work, though.
That's the center support. I can't imagine that they moved it much as there's plenty of other stuff going on around it. Thanks for the warning.
MountainRaven
01-15-14, 20:26
If I get the chance, I'll take a picture of what I'm talking about.
Well all AKs in the US are overpriced considering the actual mfg cost of one when you have no .gov BS. Unfortunately we have a lot of red tape that stands between us and guns. So what makes the Arsenal guns overpriced compared to other AKs that are available? What is a more cost effective option? I don't mind dropping the money on an Arsenal but if there is a more efficient use of my money as far as AK rifles go I would like to know about it.
What's this world coming to???
Cheap ARs and expensive ammo.
Expensive AKs and cheap ammo.
22LR ARs and no ammo!
What's this world coming to???
Cheap ARs and expensive ammo.
Expensive AKs and cheap ammo.
22LR ARs and no ammo!
Funny you say that. We always thought the guys with all the guns and ammo stockpiled was paranoid (when I was younger). Now we know they are the smart ones!
As far as the AK's, I think Saiga74 in 5.45 is now $550. I would highly recommend that due to cheap ammo and a chrome-lined barrel. Even WASR's are selling for more than that used.... ridiculous.
My most recent AK purchase was a Saiga IZ132 7.62x39. Picked it up from Atlantic for $470 shipped to my FFL. The conversion is done easily, and I'll have it where I want it for $700 total. For $700 total I'll have a RUSSIAN barrel, a RUSSIAN receiver, RUSSIAN bolt, etc.
My other is a Bulgarian build by Red Jacket. It's done well except for a slightly crooked gas block. I mean slightly, it took me mounting an ultimak to even notice it. It's got an original Bulgy Barrel, Bolt Carrier, etc. Its on a Nodak receiver. Not a bit of trouble out of it.
The reasons I skipped over the WASR, GP1970, OPAP, and NPAP:
1). US made barrels
2). Most deals are online. After my first Century rifle, I would never buy a Century product sight unseen and without inspecting it.
3) People in my area feel an AK is an AK, so $1,000 WASR's and Yugo rifles is not unheard of.
4) Yugo rifles are non standard. No using regular AKM furniture or Acc.
5) What I get for my money: a real "Russian" cobbled together in my garage vs a "copy" cobbled together in the US, with a us receiver, us barrel, etc.
I am not knocking AKM variants, but I'm buying the AK to last, I don't want buyers remorse. I'd buy an Arsenal, but can't stomach dropping over 1k to get it to my FFL's door. With the Saiga I'm getting a low cost startup. Spend a couple hundred more to convert the rear, add a bullet guide, slap a sling on, and a circle 10 mag. Pretty close to an SLR series rifle without dropping all the dough at one time. The rest of the money I'd save could buy a case and a half of quality 7.62x39.
Plus it gives me something to do while its freezing outside.
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Agreed.
The Saiga is an excellent choice, but not "out of the box" as the OP asked. But as RMiller said the skill level of the conversion is basic and requires only a few tools.
However, I need to make a few corrections about the O-PAP. The O-PAP receiver and barrel are made in Serbia,at the Zastava factory. Yugo barrels just aren't chrome lined. With the recent large influx of Yugo rifles, more furniture options are becomung available.
US 922r parts on opap are
1. Pistol grip
2-4. Tapco trigger group
5. Gas piston
6. Muzzle brake
http://grabagun.com/century-arms-arms-saiga-545x39-16-blk-30rd.html
The Saiga74 is converted out of the box for $550. It is imported by Century so buyer beware. That is still an excellent price though, and all you'd need to do if you want to finish the conversion is the gas tube.
What's this world coming to???
Cheap ARs and expensive ammo.
Expensive AKs and cheap ammo.
22LR ARs and no ammo!
Only gotta buy the rifle once, after that, it's the steady diet of ammo that'll break ya. Doesn't get much cheaper than surplus 7n6.
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Mauser KAR98K
01-19-14, 13:05
Only gotta buy the rifle once, after that, it's the steady diet of ammo that'll break ya. Doesn't get much cheaper than surplus 7n6.
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Which involves a lot a cleaning.
Which involves a lot a cleaning.
Hose 'er down! Let it air dry or blow it out with compressed air.
I shot 600rds in kuntucky one weekend, drove home 6 hrs, hosed it off with plain water, and it sat in a humid garage for a week. The following weekend, no rust.
The whole corrosive thing is way over played.
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Only gotta buy the rifle once, after that, it's the steady diet of ammo that'll break ya. Doesn't get much cheaper than surplus 7n6.
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A good reason to buy a 74 if you don't already have one.
Anyone wanna lend me $550? :p
Another vote for a Krebs AK.
http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p788/krebscustom/1487294_718213001524385_395364352_n_zps06902952.jpg (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/krebscustom/media/1487294_718213001524385_395364352_n_zps06902952.jpg.html)
East River Guide
01-20-14, 10:09
Put me in the same boat- looking for a first AK. I kind of like the Century International Arms Zastava Pap RI1987-N because it has a fairly classic look but also has a rear rail for optics.
http://centuryarms.biz/proddetail.asp?prod=RI1987-N
Any criticisms I should be aware of or other similar models to consider? Thanks for the help.
In general, top cover receiver rails are pretty worthless. They just don't hold zero.
A similar rifle to the one you're looking at is the "N-PAP". In my opinion, it's the best value going in AK's right now. The only downside to them is that the Century monkeys do convert them to hicap configuration (which is usually hit, but sometimes miss) and the barrels are not chrome lined. So long as you're not shooting corrosive ammo, the lack of a chrome lined bore shouldn't be a problem. The N-PAP is offered with wood or plastic furniture and includes a side rail (although I can't say that I've every actually seen someone attach a mount to one).
East River Guide
01-20-14, 17:53
In general, top cover receiver rails are pretty worthless. They just don't hold zero.
Thanks for the heads up! That's kind of a bummer though. I like the wood furniture look but would like to put a red dot on top.
RS Regulate makes some side mounts. I think the Yugo AK's have different dimensions on the side rails, so it may not fit. I'd contact them to see if they have a Yugo specific model.
There's also the ultimak gas tube that a lot of people like. You'll have no problem mounting a red dot on that, but it will be positioned pretty far forward since the rail is basically a replacement of the gas tube.
One more option I haven't seen mentioned here was one of the M92 carbine conversions that were being offered by CNC warrior. At around ~$600 they didn't seem like a bad deal. Comes with your choice of side folding stock, and if you want to get an SBR in the future it shouldn't be much to have the barrel extension removed
MountainRaven
01-27-14, 14:21
Haven't gotten to take photos, but through the judicious use of brute force, I was able to make a Krebs safety work with a recent production SLR.
Basically, bend the safety 'out' from the gun near the safety's pivot in the receiver and 'in' towards the tip. I'm still fine tuning the exact tightness of the safety, but it seems to work pretty well, missing the mid-receiver rivet that is the source of the problem.
Haven't gotten to take photos, but through the judicious use of brute force, I was able to make a Krebs safety work with a recent production SLR.
Basically, bend the safety 'out' from the gun near the safety's pivot in the receiver and 'in' towards the tip. I'm still fine tuning the exact tightness of the safety, but it seems to work pretty well, missing the mid-receiver rivet that is the source of the problem.
When fitting a selector, I often use a paste that I make up from aluminum oxide and grease. It's a great lapping compound for fitting parts, and cheap. Just make sure to clean it up really well when you're happy with the fit.
Hit the shows/shops - examine in person, and know what it is. A good WASR with straight sights and a well done mag well at a reasonable price is a good starter.
+1
I still read posts trashing WASRs, and I'm kinda amazed they are still universally panned in some quarters. I have owned multiple WASR 10/63s, Saigas in x39 and .308, FEG receiver'd AMDs, a preban "Match" Polytech, and Zastavas with the 1.5mm receiver. The WASRs were generally no better nor worse, functionally. An hour of work yields a reliable, reasonably accurate battle rifle for around $500 - $600. The only better deal I've ever found is buying a Saiga and converting it.
If one wants to spend the same amount of money as a Colt 6920 on an AK ... have at it. Different strokes and all. Weapons don't have be logical or make financial sense. There's room for all of us. It's all about what YOU want from one. I'd love to have a Arsenal Bulgy folder just for $hit$ and giggles, but I can't justify the cost right now. The OP's mileage may vary, however.
A note ... WASR 10/63s are not made from rejected parts. They are made from matching parts, de-milled, maybe. But not rejected. And the barrels are made at Cugir, and are chrome-lined and unfired. I have a couple examples that - after a little work on gas tubes, receiver covers, etc. - shoot 2 MOA from a bench with certain ammo. They are similar to the older Zastavas and FEGs that used to be imported (100% built in country of origin, only modified for compliance once in US), except the barrels are unfired. The Zastavas that used to come in were not chrome-lined and sometimes had pitted bores and were sometimes worn badly from service use. I've had one like that and one very good one. Haven't shot the new PAPs that are coming in. I hear they are decent battle rifles. Wish they'd gone with com-bloc chrome chambers and bores.
I've been shooting AKs since the early 90s (not counting while in the Army) and a WASR 10/63, FEG AMD, Zastava, or Saiga can all be excellent rifles for a decent price. My only "won't do" is US made barrels. Chrome-lined Com-bloc, for me where possible. :) I wasn't aware the latest PAPs were still not chromed. Might still be a decent barrel, if they are new and unfired. One of my older Zastavas was a tack-driver by AK standards, with an unchromed bore. The other was pretty bad no matter what ammo was used. Just shot out, basically.
[QUOTE=Phlipper;1846634]+1
I still read posts trashing WASRs, and I'm kinda amazed they are still universally panned in some quarters. I have owned multiple WASR 10/63s, Saigas in x39 and .308, FEG receiver'd AMDs, a preban "Match" Polytech, and Zastavas with the 1.5mm receiver. The WASRs were generally no better nor worse, functionally. An hour of work yields a reliable, reasonably accurate battle rifle for around $500 - $600. The only better deal I've ever found is buying a Saiga and converting it.
Great thread guys. I'm learning here, what is being converted on the Saiga and what is the advantage? Thanks.
WickedWillis
01-31-14, 19:01
[QUOTE=Phlipper;1846634]+1
I still read posts trashing WASRs, and I'm kinda amazed they are still universally panned in some quarters. I have owned multiple WASR 10/63s, Saigas in x39 and .308, FEG receiver'd AMDs, a preban "Match" Polytech, and Zastavas with the 1.5mm receiver. The WASRs were generally no better nor worse, functionally. An hour of work yields a reliable, reasonably accurate battle rifle for around $500 - $600. The only better deal I've ever found is buying a Saiga and converting it.
Great thread guys. I'm learning here, what is being converted on the Saiga and what is the advantage? Thanks.
Saiga's are what Arsenal converts in their builds. They come from the Izmash factory in Russia as "Sporterized" versions of the AK47. Here is one from Classic arms that they converted, making it 922R compliant. Very good price. http://www.classicfirearms.com/long-guns/russian-saiga-ak-variant
+1
I still read posts trashing WASRs, and I'm kinda amazed they are still universally panned in some quarters. I have owned multiple WASR 10/63s, Saigas in x39 and .308, FEG receiver'd AMDs, a preban "Match" Polytech, and Zastavas with the 1.5mm receiver. The WASRs were generally no better nor worse, functionally. An hour of work yields a reliable, reasonably accurate battle rifle for around $500 - $600. The only better deal I've ever found is buying a Saiga and converting it.
If one wants to spend the same amount of money as a Colt 6920 on an AK ... have at it. Different strokes and all. Weapons don't have be logical or make financial sense. There's room for all of us. It's all about what YOU want from one. I'd love to have a Arsenal Bulgy folder just for $hit$ and giggles, but I can't justify the cost right now. The OP's mileage may vary, however.
A note ... WASR 10/63s are not made from rejected parts. They are made from matching parts, de-milled, maybe. But not rejected. And the barrels are made at Cugir, and are chrome-lined and unfired. I have a couple examples that - after a little work on gas tubes, receiver covers, etc. - shoot 2 MOA from a bench with certain ammo. They are similar to the older Zastavas and FEGs that used to be imported (100% built in country of origin, only modified for compliance once in US), except the barrels are unfired. The Zastavas that used to come in were not chrome-lined and sometimes had pitted bores and were sometimes worn badly from service use. I've had one like that and one very good one. Haven't shot the new PAPs that are coming in. I hear they are decent battle rifles. Wish they'd gone with com-bloc chrome chambers and bores.
I've been shooting AKs since the early 90s (not counting while in the Army) and a WASR 10/63, FEG AMD, Zastava, or Saiga can all be excellent rifles for a decent price. My only "won't do" is US made barrels. Chrome-lined Com-bloc, for me where possible. :) I wasn't aware the latest PAPs were still not chromed. Might still be a decent barrel, if they are new and unfired. One of my older Zastavas was a tack-driver by AK standards, with an unchromed bore. The other was pretty bad no matter what ammo was used. Just shot out, basically.
I think WASR's get a bad rep in general because of the issues many owners have with them. I've owned a WASR10/63 briefly (overpaid during the panic too) and the workmanship left a lot to be desired. The magwell area looks scratched up and there are tooling marks all over the receiver. Overall quality is decent at best. Although it did shoot straight and functioned properly. I won't necessarily recommend one for a new shooter or someone who doesn't know what to look for in a good AK.
Although if you do buy it in a newer condition and without the bugs (canted sights, scratched magwells, etc) its a good buy IF its priced right. Right now there are way too many other good AK's out there to recommend a WASR as a first AK. O-Pap/N-Pap, Centurion C39, Saiga's, etc.
I went and got the O-PAP AK rifle from Firearms For Sale. Paid $545 deliv. Used the 30-off code for $30 off and it ships free. Nice rifle.
http://www.firearmsforsale.com/century-inter-arms-inc/firearms/rifles/cent-zastava-pap-7.62x39-original-wood-stock/
http://spikele.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/magpul-moe-ak47-pmag-review-initial-impressions/
I would like to know how these compare to the old "Mitchell Arms" Yugos as they are indeed Serbian rifles but tweaked by Century? Do they come as 30 rounders???
The PAP M85 and PAP M92 pistols come in able to accept regular 30rd magazines. The O-PAP and N-PAP come in as single stack rifles. Century opens up their receivers and adds sec922(r) compliance parts so they're legally considered US made rifles. The Century monkey work can be hit or miss, but given the price difference ($500 to $600 versus $1500 to $2000), the new rifles are certainly a better value.
7.62WildBill
02-06-14, 08:20
I just ordered 5 OPAPs from Atlantic. They stand behind what they sell and the OPAPs are no longer being imported, so they have good potential to be a collector's rifle.
Arsenal are good, but WAY Overpriced.
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post sandyhook Arsenals are are "way" overpriced. I purchaseed my SGL21-94 for $999 in the summer of 2012. If you are able to locate one marked A R S E N A L (not FIMME) in person and it passes your visual & mechanical inspection I recommend you get it if the price is decent, but the days of $750-$900 are over. Good luck OP
I just ordered 5 OPAPs from Atlantic. They stand behind what they sell and the OPAPs are no longer being imported, so they have good potential to be a collector's rifle.
Good thinking. I wish I could afford to do even 1.
post sandyhook Arsenals are are "way" overpriced. I purchaseed my SGL21-94 for $999 in the summer of 2012. If you are able to locate one marked A R S E N A L (not FIMME) in person and it passes your visual & mechanical inspection I recommend you get it if the price is decent, but the days of $750-$900 are over. Good luck OP
Why does it matter so much whether it is marked Arsenal or FIME? I had an Arsenal SGL 31, and I've handled the FIME marked AK's and there was no difference I could see.
My Arsenal shot well, I've never shot a FIME. From what I know, they are the same; Arsenal had to start another company (FIME) because of some legal issues.
However, if it's collector value then yes. The Arsenal marked ones seem a little more desirable
Got my O-PAP here. Use this code 30-off for a $30 off and it ships free. http://www.firearmsforsale.com/century-inter-arms-inc/firearms/rifles/cent-zastava-pap-7.62x39-original-wood-stock/
Why does it matter so much whether it is marked Arsenal or FIME?
However, if it's collector value then yes. The Arsenal marked ones seem a little more desirable
There it is! The question and the answer ^ :cool: The real AK snobs will not reach for the FIMMEs. I've witnessed it numerous times in some of the local AK boutique across the SW (AZ,NV,NM,CO)
So If I was interested in a stock 5.45, does the advice for 7.62 AKs also apply to 5.45 AKs?
^ Off the top of my head, yes. The only real downsides to a 5.45 AK, in my opinion, is
One - most ammo is corrosive and there is none produced domestically (besides a hornady offering). This might not be an issue to you
Two - there isn't as many choices if you want a factory made AK. This might also not bother you
So If I was interested in a stock 5.45, does the advice for 7.62 AKs also apply to 5.45 AKs?
AK's are just like AR's. There are some that are mil spec (Arsenal) and most that are not.
Some people like to know their barrel, and receiver are gtg. Something as simple as using the correct rails on an AK74 build, and not using a 7.62x39 rail with a .020 too short ejector ("""waffenwerks"") can cause you pains and fill you with buyers remorse. Personally a solid receiver riveted correctly, a chrome lined barrel and chamber, chrome lined gas block, make a big difference. Chrome lining goes a long way especially on a 74' one intends to shoot a crap ton of 7n6 through.
I do not own an Arsenal. I refused to buy at there prices when I could have something pretty damn similar for less. I have a Bulgarian build built off a Bulgarian kit using the original barrel and a Nodak receiver. It's the equivalent to an SGL 31-94. I also just finished converting a 7.62 Saiga.
My point is I see the appeal of an Arsenal. They are the Colt/BCM of the AK world. There is a place for the WASR's, OPAPs/NPAPs, etc,(and they run like striped apes---> FOR THE MAJORITY --> there are also quite a few lemons too) but for what most are wanting out of them, a Saiga Conversion is more practical and economical to get a great AK (from a non collectors standpoint). Some people want a great ak and don't want to piss with a conversion or don't want to play the lottery, IMO arsenal fills that niche quite nicely.
Frankly, if money wasn't an option I'd have Arsenals. But I'm too much of a cheap ass.....
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Moose-Knuckle
02-08-14, 17:18
So If I was interested in a stock 5.45, does the advice for 7.62 AKs also apply to 5.45 AKs?
Yes.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR-104-Series-5.45x39.5-Caliber-Bulgarian-Stamped-Receiver-Rifles/
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SGL31-Series-5.45x39-Caliber-Russian-Stamped-Receiver-AK-74-Variant-Rifles/
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/arsenal-slr104fr-31-5-45x39mm-side-folding-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0
Doc. Holiday
02-10-14, 10:18
Are Maadi's even worth the time of day? I got a buddy who just bought one and I'm also doing some research on buying a new AK.
Well after two us made lemon ak74's I finally broke down and bought a slr104fr.
Tired of dealing with junk receivers and key holing barrels.
7.62WildBill
03-03-14, 19:16
I picked up several OPAPs last month, before they dried up. I've shot two of them, and would estimate they are about 3 MOA rifles. While people gripe about their weight with the RPK receiver, they don't realize that the chunky Yugo stock is largely responsible for that. I plan to get an Ironwood Designs Tabuk furniture set (in walnut) and a Primary Arms 1x6 to sit on the RS Regulate AK-310 that showed up this week.
Edit: I think the N-PAP is the best deal currently available.
Wildbill: Are you the one with the skeleton stock on hi OPAP? If so, how does that lighten things up? I would suppose that with a lighter stock the OPAP (RPK Trunion) would be slightly lighter than a milled AK???
The thing I like about the Yugos is that that are too factory made, and yes, that makes them the 'best buy' in the market now. And, if you buy from a reputable place, you have some insurance. Usually the only odd-ball is that the mag well is opened by CAI.
Are the new Yugos of similar quality to the old Mitchell Arms Yugos imported long ago? Aren't they made in the same factory? (Granted different workers).
Question on SAIGAs: I suppose that the ONLY alteration made to the magwell is the bullet guide - right? I would think that this would be an ADVANTAGE because the fore and aft dimensions would be 'milspec' - right?
I'm really impressed with the Vepr's I've received. They do require some mods to function with mil-spec magazines though. But damn, the quality is REALLY apparent. They're not light though, just like any of the RPK format rifles.
7.62WildBill
03-04-14, 18:03
Wildbill: Are you the one with the skeleton stock on hi OPAP? If so, how does that lighten things up? I would suppose that with a lighter stock the OPAP (RPK Trunion) would be slightly lighter than a milled AK???
A
I don't have my Tabuk (skeletonized) stock yet, but I've read that they are about a pound lighter than the standard M70 stock.
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