View Full Version : Am I over cleaning my rifle?
Djstorm100
01-06-14, 20:13
The only reason I ask this is after reading many threads and god knows how many post, more people clean their barrel when accuracy starts to drop off. They are more less referring to when to clean out the copper
But what about POWDER from rounds shot that day? I know it's not corrosive ammo (at least the ammo I shoot).
I only will clean the copper out of my barrel min after 1500-2000 rounds. Powder I use to clean when I got a round too it...I took a class where I shot 500 rounds and didn't clean the powder out for a few more months, in between those few months probably shot another 500 or so.
So my question is not when to clean the copper but the powder?
Personally, I just run a boresnake through my barrel after each range trip. I never really get too anal about it unless it's a precision rifle.
For my issued M4, I do the same, but run a few oiled patches to prevent corrosion from sitting in the lockers for a week or so at a time. I don't have a long gun anymore so I just run the boresnake through, patch it up, and back in the rack it goes. And hell, I OVERCLEAN my barrel compared to the other guys in my Company who never patch their barrels.
On deployment, I never really clean my barrel. I barely shot a basic load total my first deployment and a whopping 3 rounds from my M4 my second trip.
You're good, bro. It's really just personal preference in my limited experience with chrome lined ARs.
I wouldn't overthink it by making a distinction between powder and copper. Just clean it when accuracy suffers or when you experience malfunctions.
I run a bore snake with CLP after each range session--3 passes addresses my OCD. :dance3:
Once a year, I use foaming bore cleaner in the rifles I shoot over 1,000 rounds/year. The cleaner that turns brass & copper blue, is what I'm referring to. The lesser-fired rifles get their bore scrubber when I look in the bore & ask myself--when was the last time I cleaned this?
Djstorm100
01-06-14, 20:38
I wouldn't overthink it by making a distinction between powder and copper. Just clean it when accuracy suffers or when you experience malfunctions.
Thanks for the input guys.
I always interpreted it as you clean the barrel to get the copper out..but didn't know if you were suppose to clean out the powder in between cleaning.
Example cleaning the powder out after every range trip, once you see the groups opening up fully clean the barrel (get the copper fouling out)
The best information I've come across...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV9QvEm1nFc
Its long, but worth the watch.
SilverBullet432
01-06-14, 23:51
Aww hell am i overcleaning??? I use bore foam after every range session!! (Only like 120 rounds at a time, maybe twice a month) :help:
If you're cleaning right, you can't over-clean. I think the biggest problem with thinking you need to clean every time you shoot is that you'll get bored with it and the pendulum will swing to the other side and you'll tend to neglect them, after a while. These days a lot of people say don't clean at all, others say clean every time and in between for the hell of it; so you know reality is somewhere in the middle.
As to copper: I've personally never once de-coppered. Never. I'd never even heard of it, until I'd been shooting for a good 5 or 6 years, and thought it sounded pretty abusive and wasteful then. I still think it is.
Djstorm100
01-07-14, 07:24
If you're cleaning right, you can't over-clean. I think the biggest problem with thinking you need to clean every time you shoot is that you'll get bored with it and the pendulum will swing to the other side and you'll tend to neglect them, after a while. These days a lot of people say don't clean at all, others say clean every time and in between for the hell of it; so you know reality is somewhere in the middle.
As to copper: I've personally never once de-coppered. Never. I'd never even heard of it, until I'd been shooting for a good 5 or 6 years, and thought it sounded pretty abusive and wasteful then. I still think it is.
Yea I had that happen before where I didn't want to clean them for a while with no ill effects but that doesn't say anything long term effects
I was just curious if people cleaned out the powder every range trip or just said the hell with it. Meaning they cleaned it when they got a round to it...if that means tomorrow, 2 weeks, 6 months or 2 years from now.
Bore-Tech Eliminator, a nylon brush, and a bunch of patches. Every time I shoot it.
Failure2Stop
01-07-14, 08:19
If you're cleaning right, you can't over-clean. I think the biggest problem with thinking you need to clean every time you shoot is that you'll get bored with it and the pendulum will swing to the other side and you'll tend to neglect them, after a while. These days a lot of people say don't clean at all, others say clean every time and in between for the hell of it; so you know reality is somewhere in the middle.
False.
It is absolutely possible to over-clean. Frankly, the methods of overcleaning are generally abusive, however, one can "clean" so much as to wear off the protective finishes/coatings that are applied to the components of the firearm. Likewise, one can overclean a barrel, especially if using an abrasive additive, that will prematurely wear the throat/lead and possibly erode the crown. Now, these things are generally not noticed by folks that are only cleaning twice a month and/or aren't pushing the envelope of system capability.
As to copper: I've personally never once de-coppered. Never. I'd never even heard of it, until I'd been shooting for a good 5 or 6 years, and thought it sounded pretty abusive and wasteful then. I still think it is.
De-coppering is an essential part of maintaining a precision firearm, however, it is pretty much a waste of time for non-precision chrome-lined 5.56 carbines.
With precision guns I don't even think about de-coppering before 1000 rounds, and if I haven't seen a drop off in precision I only seriously consider it at around 2k, and that's basically just insurance that I won't experience loss of capability in the middle of doing something without having the time/opportunity to take care of it. Kind of like an oil change.
On precision rifles, I clean when accuracy drops off. I try NOT to clean the copper out because the majority of barrels shoot best with copper on them, so remove it and you end up firing 40 or 50 rounds to lay more copper down to get it to settle back in.
I agree with the above that you can over-clean or cause damage from doing it improperly.
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No. Thats about right. Personaly I try and clean and lube after each range session. But thats just me.
False.
It is absolutely possible to over-clean. Frankly, the methods of overcleaning are generally abusive, however, one can "clean" so much as to wear off the protective finishes/coatings that are applied to the components of the firearm. Likewise, one can overclean a barrel, especially if using an abrasive additive, that will prematurely wear the throat/lead and possibly erode the crown. Now, these things are generally not noticed by folks that are only cleaning twice a month and/or aren't pushing the envelope of system capability.
You quoted an entire paragraph and said "false," then refuted me with a statement that doesn't exactly address what I said.
Seems a bit hastily dismissive, for a moderator.
How many rounds down the pipe without cleaning, while still keeping acceptable accuracy, did Filthy 14 get before being rebuilt?
Last time I cleaned an AR barrel was after about 1000rds, half of those being dirty Norinco 5.56.
I clean after each use. Takes forever if I bring more than two or three guns to the range. Still better than cleaning an m-60 though.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
I build a new upper.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
F2S nailed it.
I clean my AR's every 600-1,000 rounds or whenever the sight of the dirt bothers me. I have gone as long as 1,500 rounds without cleaning. As long as I keep a generous amount of lube applied to the critical parts, I don't have any reliability issues.
On a precision rifle, I clean whenever the accuracy drops off, which means groups opening up to 1 MOA. Sometimes this occurs at 500 rounds and sometimes as many as 800 rounds.
Failure2Stop
01-07-14, 17:00
You quoted an entire paragraph and said "false," then refuted me with a statement that doesn't exactly address what I said.
I was a bit locked on the "you can't over-clean" part, which was the single point that I was directly referring to with the "false" statement. The rest was more of a jump-off from that single point, as it was what most grabbed my attention. I don't necessarily think that you are wrong in your belief that shooters will get bored with cleaning and lead to neglect; I agree that it is indeed possible for a user to become lazy/complacent, though I don't encounter that issue very often with the type of people that care enough about their firearms to become enthusiasts. Agreed, a difference in opinion does not necessarily make either party right or wrong. Further agreed that you made the qualifying statement "If you're cleaning right", which does indeed necessitate that the user be doing everything correctly. What I believe makes the statement "false" is that doing everything right, but too much, will lead to premature wear.
Seems a bit hastily dismissive, for a moderator.
I did not intend to be dismissive, and can see how my reply could be taken that way.
I wasn't looking for an argument or to demean you personally, but rather took what I read (albeit possibly a bit hastily) and used it to frame my experience.
My comments were not directed at you, but rather to the readership as a whole.
If you want to continue this discussion please feel free to PM me if it is outside the scope of this thread.
Djstorm100
01-07-14, 17:18
All I wanted to know is when should I clean out the powder...lol This is regarding Chromelined ar15...not a rifle. Not talking about when to take the copper out but when should someone think about taking the powder if ever out. Granted if you go out and get the rifle in the dirt/sand/mud/wet/etc clean it.
I was a bit locked on the "you can't over-clean" part, which was the single point that I was directly referring to with the "false" statement. The rest was more of a jump-off from that single point, as it was what most grabbed my attention. I don't necessarily think that you are wrong in your belief that shooters will get bored with cleaning and lead to neglect; I agree that it is indeed possible for a user to become lazy/complacent, though I don't encounter that issue very often with the type of people that care enough about their firearms to become enthusiasts. Agreed, a difference in opinion does not necessarily make either party right or wrong. Further agreed that you made the qualifying statement "If you're cleaning right", which does indeed necessitate that the user be doing everything correctly. What I believe makes the statement "false" is that doing everything right, but too much, will lead to premature wear.
I did not intend to be dismissive, and can see how my reply could be taken that way.
I wasn't looking for an argument or to demean you personally, but rather took what I read (albeit possibly a bit hastily) and used it to frame my experience.
My comments were not directed at you, but rather to the readership as a whole.
If you want to continue this discussion please feel free to PM me if it is outside the scope of this thread.
All agreed, essentially. My comment about "cleaning right" is subjective, but where I think most "switched on" guys land. Wiping off soot, running a boresnake through the bore once, maybe twice, lubricating, and putting it away, or a similar regimen, would be "right" to me. You can't exactly do that "too much," in my opinion, whether you do it five times a year or every time you shoot (assuming that's more than five times a year). Scraping carbon, running bristle brushes and patches through the bore until "white," and de-coppering would be not "cleaning right." As to copper on precision guns; that's out of my lane.
As to the rest, thanks for addressing it. We're all square.
Outlander Systems
01-07-14, 19:20
All agreed, essentially. My comment about "cleaning right" is subjective, but where I think most "switched on" guys land. Wiping off soot, running a boresnake through the bore once, maybe twice, lubricating, and putting it away, or a similar regimen, would be "right" to me. You can't exactly do that "too much," in my opinion, whether you do it five times a year or every time you shoot (assuming that's more than five times a year). Scraping carbon, running bristle brushes and patches through the bore until "white," and de-coppering would be not "cleaning right." As to copper on precision guns; that's out of my lane.
As to the rest, thanks for addressing it. We're all square.
White Glovin' Lovin' is where it gets insane.
I use "cleaning" more as "inspecting"...
I tend to wipe stuff off with Remoil, I know, it's "terrible stuff", run a bore snake through the damned thing, and call it good. Couple of drops of Mobil 1 on takedown and pivot pins, and a squirt or two on the BCG. If things get start to get cruddy, I'll do the soak the BCG in solvent trick, and run some Hoppes or Gunscrubber through the bore, and follow up with a Remoil patch. Like F2S, I only **** with the bore after high round counts.
If I am particularly lazy, I'll spray the thing with Remoil and be done with it.
Cleaning for me, is about checking for premature wear and functionality more than anything.
Guns-up.50
01-07-14, 19:48
I came form the Marine Corps where cleaning is not only a daily task, its to the point of excess. There are several reasons the Marines do this, either way I found out that its not necessary when I got more into precision shooting. I have now begun to treat my carbines more like my bolt gun. Bust carbon, clean chamber, grease and go. I generally will clean the carbon out of the barrels, if the bolt is not visibly soiled (sand/dirt) and is lubed well; I often will let it go till it is.
So is the problem with cleaning to much due to the chemicals in the cleaners or is it beneficial to have carbon and copper present in the firearm, or is it both?
Levi
Good thread, but what about someone who might shoot 5-800 rounds in a range session and not shoot again for 8-9 months?? At what point does corrosion start if the weapon is not cleaned? A chrome lined bore will be less susceptible to corrosion correct? Maybe I am overthinking this.
I agree that a couple of swipes with the bore snake through the barrel and cleaning the rest of the gun with a good lube can't hurt after a visit to the range. Unfortunately, any one gun may sit a while in the safe between use. I just don't see why you would want to leave them dirty if you have the time to clean. On top of that I actually enjoy the process of breaking them down, inspecting, and cleaning.
Carbon isn't ever beneficial but copper fouling can lead to more consistent groups.
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Scraping carbon, running bristle brushes and patches through the bore until "white," and de-coppering would be not "cleaning right."
Scraping off carbon isn't "wrong" if done properly, just as cleaning the bore until clean isn't either. If you use a wire-wheel on a Dremel or grinder to get carbon off then yeah, that's a bit much. If you use steel bore brushes and a steel rod then you risk damage. A copper brush isn't going to harm a hard chrome bore, especially if it's on a Dewey coated cleaning rod. There are tools made specifically for bolt and carrier carbon scraping as well as the old green "scratchy pad". Chemical cleaning (FireClean for example) is safe, as is an ultrasonic (never had any problems with mine, depends on the solvent used).
No, it IS possible to really clean your weapon if done PROPERLY. I do it every time I shoot, unless of course I'm taking a class and will shoot again the next day. My weapons are an investment as well as potentially life-saving instruments. As such I thoroughly but CAREFULLY clean after each session.
What I believe makes the statement "false" is that doing everything right, but too much, will lead to premature wear.
I would offer that the methods and equipment used to clean weapons are what causes excess wear, due to faulty understanding of the purpose behind cleaning a gun.
Granted, you have more experience with this than me, but I don't quite see how using patches, copper brushes and lube can cause premature wear, unless you are doing it excessively/incorrectly.
Ah the purpose of cleaning one's weapon. Does that not become situational?
The purpose ought to be - to preserve the weapon from corrosion and rust, to insure operational integrity, and to offer the opportunity for a more detailed inspection. Not always in that order.
Personally, I clean when I can, and try to clean not too shortly after a weekend's shooting, but I don't get anal about it.
Ah the purpose of cleaning one's weapon. Does that not become situational?
Not a bad observation. Unfortunately for many, the understanding is that keeping the gun CLEAN is the purpose, and cue the good idea fairy for ways to pass white glove inspection types.
The purpose ought to be - to preserve the weapon from corrosion and rust, to insure operational integrity, and to offer the opportunity for a more detailed inspection. Not always in that order.
Cannot disagree with those points. The last point, detailed inspection, should not happen too often. In the mil we did that 4 times a year.
Wait, we re supposed to clean an AR? Next you will be telling me we have to make our beds...They are just gonna get dirty again!
On a serious note, to me, the biggest part of cleaning is the maintenance. I like to inspect the parts, and make sure that everything is in working order. (extractor spring, rings are not in need of replacing, no bolt lugs cracking, witness marks not drifting, etc.)
Averageman
01-11-14, 06:06
While in the Military I saw guns that were over cleaned, that being said the purpose of cleaning your personal weapon isn't to pass an inspection, it is to clean your personal weapon.
A pass with a boresnake before leaving the range, then a better cleaning of the barrel with a proper cleaning rod and chamber brush (not that segmented steel POS the Military gave me) wipe the bolt, inspect it and then a good lube inside and out.
The stuff I saw in the Military was abuse. Improper and broken/damaged cleaning rods with too many patches being literally hammered through the barrel, Chamber brushes on cordless drills. E-Z Off Oven cleaner on an M240, Brasso in a cannon tube etc, etc. That stuff infuriated me.
If a gun is run extremely hard and is a complete and utter disaster the first thing I would start cleaning with was hot soapy water, it actually works wonders.
If your barrel is getting more wear from cleaning then from actually firing the rifle, yes you may have a problem.
Outlander Systems
01-11-14, 10:10
I would start cleaning with was hot soapy water, it actually works wonders.
There was an old trick that involved taking an A2 in the shower...
Averageman
01-11-14, 16:27
They used to have this "Rube Goldberg" looking cross between and industrial washing machine and a giant Dishwasher on Steroids at the holding area at NTC.
You took the back plates off of your machineguns (in this case M2's and M240's) and came back 45 minutes later and presto clean machinegun !
Something at NTC that worked and didn't actually bend a Soldier over and require him to squeal like a pig?? Say it aint so!
No really soapy, water is a nice un intrusive place to start is you study it a bit and not immerse the parts you are supposed to.
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