View Full Version : Now is the time to stockpile magazines...
Larry Vickers
01-09-14, 07:53
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
Guess I better stop using my metal and start using more Pmags .... and 5 more ordered last week :)
A very solid reminder.
Any brand of metal mags in particular that you recommend for longevity?
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 09:01
A very solid reminder.
Any brand of metal mags in particular that you recommend for longevity?
Yes, a recommendation would be great. I only have a handful of metal mags and have been looking to get more. I have ordered metal mags with the Magpul follower from Bravo Company before, those good to go? I think they sell D&H mags correct?
Apricotshot
01-09-14, 09:16
Damn Larry. You just made metal mags jump 20% in price.:p
Lots of guys heads are spinning right now and are going to lose sleep over this. Haha!
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 09:43
The plastic followers will deteriorate even in metal mags, correct?
This makes me think the thing to do is seek out those all-too-rare Vietnam era metal mags with metal followers.
I've only seen a few over the years, always in beat up condition, of course.
I know a few things about plastics: a lot of plastics can be preserved by keeping them out of UV light (black tends to hold up better than other colors). You also want to keep them out of extremes of heat and cold: no storing them in the freezing garage in the winter or hot vehicle in the summer.
The main problem IIRC is that plastic is a petroleum product, and as the "oiliness" degrades the plastic becomes brittle.
This makes me wonder if the "old school" guns with wood stocks are ultimately superior.
Larry Vickers
01-09-14, 10:29
In July 2012 I had a gut feeling it was time to lay in some AR mags ( I have a bunch but wanted a few more ) - I had Paul Buffoni send me a case of 100 BCM mags and I tucked them away
I would recommend you do the same
A plastic follower is far less concern than plastic feed lips - you get my drift ?
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 10:40
A plastic follower is far less concern than plastic feed lips - you get my drift ?
Ten-four.
That dawned on me a few minutes ago, and you replied before I had a chance to edit my post.
SilverBullet432
01-09-14, 10:41
you get my drift ?
Yes, time to go shopping... I bought like 20 pmags for nearly msrp a while back. Time to look for GIs!
SomeOtherGuy
01-09-14, 10:45
One question - and Larry I obviously know who you are and your SME status - but do you know for sure that the longevity issues with plastic apply to the plastics being used by Magpul, Lancer and others? I believe (can't quote) that a Magpul rep has stated that their plastic material has "X" durability/longevity status, which I believe was several decades. I would invite someone from Magpul to comment on that. Also comments from people with Lancer, Tangodown, Troy, etc.
And the flip side - while some Vietnam-era mags are still useable, in general the GI mag has a fairly definite service life once put in use. It is very thin aluminum after all. There are steel mags on the market, but they range from expensive and mixed reviews (HK) to cheap and mixed to bad reviews (C-Products SS) to expensive, weird and heavy (Cammenga Easymag) to moderate price, hard to find and reputed to crack (Fusil USA).
Finally, how would you feel about a plastic body with steel feedlips, specifically the Lancer AWM?
Larry Vickers
01-09-14, 10:50
It's easy for Magpul to say that when the company hasn't been in business for longer than a decade ( making mags that is ) !!!! Proof is in the pudding - ALL plastic deteriorate over time ; if you want to stockpile magazines for a potential future ban metal mags make sense
Plastic mags are the ones you use now
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 10:53
It's easy for Magpul to say that when the company hasn't been in business for longer than a decade ( making mags that is ) !!!!
LOL--Good point.
Larry, you may have answered this in another thread but since you seem to be online now I'll ask again: would you opt for storing your spare mags loaded (not to full capacity!) or unloaded?
Larry Vickers
01-09-14, 10:57
Have some loaded for grab and go but for 'giving your unborn grandson a case of AR mags for his 20th birthday' type storage definitely unloaded
SilverBullet432
01-09-14, 11:03
LOL--Good point.
Larry, you may have answered this in another thread but since you seem to be online now I'll ask again: would you opt for storing your spare mags loaded (not to full capacity!) or unloaded?
Have some loaded for grab and go but for 'giving your unborn grandson a case of AR mags for his 20th birthday' type storage definitely unloaded
Sorry to get off track, but I had a similar question. How long should you keep them loaded and ready to go before "rotating" them with fresher mags?
DreadPirateMoyer
01-09-14, 11:14
It's easy for Magpul to say that when the company hasn't been in business for longer than a decade ( making mags that is ) !!!! Proof is in the pudding - ALL plastic deteriorate over time ; if you want to stockpile magazines for a potential future ban metal mags make sense
Plastic mags are the ones you use now
Appreciate the advice, Larry. :) I do take issue with your statement on plastic deteriorating over time, however, especially as an engineer that works with them daily.
Most industrial plastics have only a few weaknesses: UV light and chemical decomposition from things like certain acids/bases, and extreme temperatures. Quality polymers don't sour or denature absent these things. I've tried broaching this topic with people on this forum every time this comes up, but if Magpul uses the proper materials (no reason to think they don't), PMAGs stored in a cool, dry safe most definitely WILL NOT sour or deteriorate or decompose or fall apart. That's not how plastics work. They'll most likely last longer than the metal magazines, considering over thousands of years, the metals will oxidize and the plastics won't.
That's not just theory, either. Proof is definitely in the pudding, and the decades-old PVC/HDPE/polymer pipes I dig up every day in chemically-neutral soils show it, as they look like they did on day 1 other than some cracks and scratches from pressure points (rocks) in the surrounding soil.
There's no reason to avoid plastic magazines for long term storage, unless your long-term storage is laying them in front of a window. :) I suspect people feel the plastic will sour over time because they see it happening as they use plastics in the world, but that's because those plastics are being exposed to UV light, just like aluminum will practically self-destruct under running water. Even then, I can't see PMAGs chemically souring for your average user within even a decade of hard use.
Larry Vickers
01-09-14, 11:18
Dead Pirate - I'll remember all this to tell the next student I have that cracks a tan Pmag ; even though the plastic cracked he is still better off than using a metal mag right ?
DreadPirateMoyer
01-09-14, 11:19
But we're talking stockpiling, aren't we? Not use?
If we're talking about actually running the mags, you'll know way more than me about how they hold up in use. I'm just saying with regards to long-term storage or keeping a backup supply, though, PMAGs will be just as good as metal (depending on the polymer used, of course). The material shouldn't weaken just sitting in a safe.
ETA: Maybe Duane could comment. :) I've read that some plastics using high doses of plasticizers for easier molding can weaken over time; maybe PMAGs use these?
DreadPirate hit it on the head. Not trying to butt heads here, Larry, but thin sheet aluminum can also change properties with time. Poly handguards and furniture from the Vietnam era are still kicking around along with the aluminum magazines, and today's materials are way, way better. If you are talking 100 years plus for the storage, there <may> be some benefits to metal or may not, depending on storage environment (dry and sunny? damp and dark?), but in that case, properly preserved 100% steel would likely be the best multi-multi-multi generational bet. Steel AR mags just don't cut it, though.
As DreadPirate said, UV is the biggest threat, and storage mags aren't exposed to it.
Under storage, you don't need to store loaded PMAGs with covers, but I would do so if you intend to keep them loaded for over 5-10 years. Might as well, at that point, since it's not like you're worried about fast access. I 100% agree with Larry that it's far better to store LOOOONG term storage mags unloaded. A dark, temp controlled environment is better for everything, too.
We have seen very minimal feed lip creep (not nearly enough to affect function) over years of loaded storage with UV and heat cycle abuse so it's better to be safe than sorry and store unloaded for LONG term stuff...BUT, you get just as much feed lip creep from an aluminum mag, which may surprise some folks (we test everybody's stuff). When loaded and so abused, both materials have shown a few thou of change within a relatively short period of such abuse, and then stabilize for as long as we've been testing (since 2007). Storing PMAGs WITH the covers however, avoids even the initial minimum creep, since there is no pressure on the lips.
Don't take our word for it...any good engineer that deals with modern polymers will likely tell you the same thing. I can tell you that our materials are crazy hard to mold because we do have long-term longevity and stability in mind.
We deliberately heat/cold cycle and long-term, high intensity UV expose everything we make (along with what everyone else makes), and I'm not terribly concerned about the polymer mags my grandkids and great grandkids will get, probably even more after that. My great, great, great, great, great, great grandkids will at least get stamped steel roller lockers and AKs with steel mags, but they'll earn their stripes cleaning out cosmoline. Aluminum and polymer we'll have to see about at that point. They'll also have them in the display room under glass, since they'll be out training with their phased plasma rifles. Either that, or they'll be welding the breeches shut and stuffing them with black powder, depending on how things go. :)
Bottom line: I have seen no evidence through empirical testing or supporting science to suggest that an aluminum magazine will outlive a polymer magazine in storage. The only reason I say steel is that we have surviving examples of 100+ year old steel magazines, and again...different storage environments will degrade steel more rapidly than polymer.
GeorgiaBoy
01-09-14, 11:58
Sounds like a great time for me to send another order to BCM... :D
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
Right on. I set aside 100 mags for each son. Don't want them to be MFing me in 30years for not seeing a ban coming LOL.
C4
Yes, a recommendation would be great. I only have a handful of metal mags and have been looking to get more. I have ordered metal mags with the Magpul follower from Bravo Company before, those good to go? I think they sell D&H mags correct?
Those are good mags.
C4
I have taken this so far as to put my metal mags in storage and started using p mags for shooter/beater mags.
Being that I'm in the metalworking industry, I tend to favor metal products over plastic. I've had extremely good luck with all the mags I've run so far which includes C-Products Stainless mags, GI mags, & Magpul mags. They've all been 100%. My stash mags consist of about 50% Stainless, 30% aluminum GI, & 20% plastic. I'm sure Magpul uses the best of the best materials in their mags, but from what I've seen over the years, plastic get brittle over time (I'm sure many of you have had the experience of a leg breaking off one of those plastic patio chairs as you sit in it? It usually happens when you're shitfaced and you wind up on your ass cursing at the sky). 20-50 years from now, I'm confident my stainless mags will still be reliable as stainless doesn't deteriorate easily & resists work hardening better than aluminum. This is from a simple welders perspective.
Being that I'm in the metalworking industry, I tend to favor metal products over plastic. I've had extremely good luck with all the mags I've run so far which includes C-Products Stainless mags, GI mags, & Magpul mags. They've all been 100%. My stash mags consist of about 50% Stainless, 30% aluminum GI, & 20% plastic. I'm sure Magpul uses the best of the best materials in their mags, but from what I've seen over the years, plastic get brittle over time (I'm sure many of you have had the experience of a leg breaking off one of those plastic patio chairs as you sit in it? It usually happens when you're shitfaced and you wind up on your ass cursing at the sky). 20-50 years from now, I'm confident my stainless mags will still be reliable as stainless doesn't deteriorate easily & resists work hardening better than aluminum. This is from a simple welders perspective.
A1, that's UV deterioration you're talking about, and since cheap molded stuff uses little or no reinforcement and utilizes the plasticizers and flow enhancers that DreadPirate mentioned to reduce cycle times and make stuff CHEAP, their base material is especially susceptible to it.
With as cheap as both PMAGs and USGI mags are at this point, it would be a mistake to not stock up on both styles. I know I am.
With as cheap as both PMAGs and USGI mags are at this point, it would be a mistake to not stock up on both styles. I know I am.
Well, that's one thing that's certain...magazines of any type are not likely to ever be significantly cheaper than they are now. Firearms and accessories in general, also.
A1, that's UV deterioration you're talking about, and since cheap molded stuff uses little or no reinforcement and utilizes the plasticizers and flow enhancers that DreadPirate mentioned to reduce cycle times and make stuff CHEAP, their base material is especially susceptible to it.
I hear you friend. I know the sun will break down plastic at an accelerated rate. What I'm curious about is when my grandkids, 40 years from now, are using my plastic mags, how well are they going to hold up? They're stored indoors in their original packaging in a mostly temperature stable, shady environment to preserve them. I don't have much experience in plastic fabrication and maybe there's nothing to worry about. I know of other plastic products I've had over they years that have had little to no UV exposure and become brittle. I have no doubt that your materials & manufacturing process are first class, I'm just curious about the long haul.
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
Huh.....had not thought of that. Thanks for the wisdom.
SilverBullet432
01-09-14, 13:38
Gives me a good enough excuse to buy: "think of it honey, its for our unborn son(s)!" Genius!!
I have taken this so far as to put my metal mags in storage and started using p mags for shooter/beater mags.
Agree. Buy black PMAGS and metal mags from BCM. Done and done.
Not trying to contradict anyone or start an argument. But I have SIG and AUG magazines from the late 80s that are still running fine with no issues yet.
40 years is easy. We know what 40 years looks like from early materials. We know how to make WAY better materials now, too. No one has a crystal ball for what aluminum or polymer or carbon fiber will look like in 200 years --even aluminum receivers-- but we have some pretty solid science that can predict what to expect.
In the end, it's what you're comfortable with personally. Having seen what I've seen here, I'm VERY comfortable with polymer.
Not trying to contradict anyone or start an argument. But I have SIG and AUG magazines from the late 80s that are still running fine with no issues yet.
How about that. Doesn't something used in this manner fundamentally need to have a chance to stand the test of time so that it can be judged to stand the test of time? Not left outside in the elements, as would be hazardous to any metal mag, but if stored sensibly and properly?
That's always the question. I can point to a steel and wood brown bess, and say wood and steel will be around for a while, from first hand observation. We've only had firearms magazines and receivers made from aluminum since what? The 1950's? Polymer magazines for less than that. The science and engineering tells us what to expect, but no...you can't point to a 200 year old box magazine made of either stamped aluminum or polymer.
Something else to ponder, however, is that although the polymer magazine is a bit younger than the first aluminum ones, the Remington Nylon 66, with a polymer receiver and stock, was introduced in 1959, and they're still just fine.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 14:22
Those are good mags.
C4
Thanks Grant.
Thread was a good reminder(or good marketing.........). I checked your site Grant and looks like you were out of stock, so to BCM I went. 10 pack of Teflon coated wasn't a bad price.
I haven't done many Magpul mags, but have run a lot of their furniture through my cerakote ovens...just a day at the spa.
Everything on the planet has to suffer UV damage, and the sun will always win, against all comers. Stored properly, all types are gtg and will likely outlast our offspring.
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Yep I am still using VietNam Era Contract mags - bought most in mid-70s, yes 35-40 years old and run 100%.
Apricotshot
01-09-14, 14:35
If anyone here really truly needs mags for any NATO specific weapon system, there will be plenty laying around on main street.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 14:40
I guess if I really needed them I would rather have a few extras laying around instead of having to go on a scavenger hunt where they would be laying around on the ground due to their previous owners....no longer needing them.
Am I the only one thinking advances in firearms forty years hence may find AR's the flintlocks of yesteryear?
In forty years, we may using handheld laser weapons or become half human / half cyborg (if you can believe Ray Kurzweil) and have built in weapons that might make AR's look painfully inadequate.
Concerning oneself about mags lasting forty years from today seems a bit of a stretch...
Am I the only one thinking advances in firearms forty years hence may find AR's the flintlocks of yesteryear?
In forty years, we may using handheld laser weapons or become half human / half cyborg (if you can believe Ray Kurzweil) and have built in weapons that might make AR's look painfully inadequate.
Concerning oneself about mags lasting forty years from today seems a bit of a stretch...
Maybe, but just as I still want clips for my Garand and strippers for my '03 Springfield, people will want magazines for their antiquated ARs. Imagine if they banned Garand clips that held more than 5 rounds in 1968. How much would those "preban" pieces of stamped steel be going for now?
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 14:55
Am I the only one thinking advances in firearms forty years hence may find AR's the flintlocks of yesteryear?
In forty years, we may using handheld laser weapons or become half human / half cyborg (if you can believe Ray Kurzweil) and have built in weapons that might make AR's look painfully inadequate.
Concerning oneself about mags lasting forty years from today seems a bit of a stretch...
Every time I hear someone predict the advent of some plasma energy wonder weapon right out of Star Wars to replace whatever firearm we're talking about I am reminded of the words of wisdom of a military man whose name escapes me:
"Bullets are cheaper."
Fixed cartridge firing guns are going to be around well into the next century, although ammo and caliber selection is likely to continue improving.
Look at today: even though 45-70 is about as obsolete as the Colt Peacemaker, you can still find firearms and ammo in this caliber.
How about that. Doesn't something used in this manner fundamentally need to have a chance to stand the test of time so that it can be judged to stand the test of time? Not left outside in the elements, as would be hazardous to any metal mag, but if stored sensibly and properly?
That's really the key.
Not that it's a direct 1:1 comparison but we've all seen GI Joes from the 1960s survive to this day without disintegrating, even those that got played with. And we've all seen Tonka trucks from the same period that are still trucking.
Now leave that Tonka out in the rain long enough and it's done for, leave Joe in direct sunlight long enough and that's it for him. Now in 100 years I'm sure a well taken care of Tonka truck will still be around, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a Joe that is 150 years old either.
Personally I'm diversified. I've got several hundred Pmags and a few hundred USGI mags in my personal stash. And as soon as I get my head above water, I'll probably grab some more.
Pmags are selling because they are $5 cheaper (sometimes more) per mag than Colts (Okay) so that's $50 if you are buying 10 mags. Guess what most people do?
Another way to look at it, Pmags save the wear and tear on your USGI mags which you can leave alone for long term storage if you really want to make sure your great grandkids are taken care of.
Great discussion on metal vs polymer mags.
Seriously.
The only logical course of action is to get a metric ton of each, like Steyr.
Great discussion on metal vs polymer mags.
Seriously.
The only logical course of action is to get a metric ton of each, like Steyr.
I agree. Never had enough of either. I have many of each and now that my needs for Pmags have been filled my plan is to order more of each USGI and Pmags for storage as well as more pistol mags and odd and ends mags for my other rifles. And of course more ammo. Buy quality and store things properly and you will be fine me thinks.
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 15:15
That's really the key.
Not that it's a direct 1:1 comparison but we've all seen GI Joes from the 1960s survive to this day without disintegrating, even those that got played with. And we've all seen Tonka trucks from the same period that are still trucking.
Now leave that Tonka out in the rain long enough and it's done for, leave Joe in direct sunlight long enough and that's it for him. Now in 100 years I'm sure a well taken care of Tonka truck will still be around, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a Joe that is 150 years old either.
Careful use and proper care don't always tell the story. Material integrity is THE major factor as far as I'm concerned. Several years ago I watched a show on PBS about how the Library of Congress (or Smithsonian, or whatever) cares for music compact discs in its library. Despite the meticulous procedures and storage criteria many from the 1980's are disintegrating due to their having been manufactured from substandard materials to begin with. Weren't we told in the '80's that CD's last forever?
I know that's not a direct comparison to polymer M16 magazines. Pmags will undoubtedly prove acceptably durable.
The point is that metal mags are somewhat of a known quantity and polymer mags are not.
That fact alone brings this back around to what LAV said: store your metal mags and use your polymer mags.
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 15:17
Duane, I realize some of your info on your mag composition is proprietary but what can you tell us generally about what from and how PMAGS are made and what is done to increse longevity?
Some guy buried his G21 for 2 years then uncovered it and shot about 500 rds out of it. The polymer frame wasn't exposed to sunlight but was exposed to every extreme Mother Nature could throw at it. I thought it relevant to the discussion being that modern "weapons grade" polymers are very resilient.
jonconsiglio
01-09-14, 15:32
Dead Pirate - I'll remember all this to tell the next student I have that cracks a tan Pmag ; even though the plastic cracked he is still better off than using a metal mag right ?
I have been saying for years now that the colored PMAGs were more prone to failure/damage than the black ones. Nobody would listen to me.
I noticed the difference when stippling some KAC rail panels then some grips from Magpul. The colored polymer, especially tan, seems less dense than the black.
I'm no engineer, but there was a noticeable difference.
about a year or two ago, I decided to use the PMAGs I had but to buy more GI mags from there on. I'll still buy and use PMAGs, but I'm sticking to black for the most part. Either way, I'll still give Magpul my business as I'll use Magpul followers in the GI mags.
Edit - to be clear, I'm not speaking negatively about colored PMAGs. I'm just saying that, for me, I have more faith in the black ones as the material seems more dense. The PMAG failures I've had has been primarily with the tan ones. I will run every mag I purchase at the range before it's used at work or for the home.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 15:50
I have been saying for years now that the colored PMAGs were more prone to failure/damage than the black ones. Nobody would listen to me.
I noticed the difference when stippling some KAC rail panels then some grips from Magpul. The colored polymer, especially tan, seems less dense than the black.
I'm no engineer, but there was a noticeable difference.
about a year or two ago, I decided to use the PMAGs I had but to buy more GI mags from there on. I'll still buy and use PMAGs, but I'm sticking to black for the most part. Either way, I'll still give Magpul my business as I'll use Magpul followers in the GI mags.
Same here. I have moved to only purchasing black pmags. When I first started buying them I picked up a lot of tan ones, no problems as of yet but I would rather not chance it so I just go with black.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 15:52
Speaking of mags, I just got the notification that Brownells has shipped my order of (3)17 round M&P mags that I ordered.....................December of 2012. I had forgotten all about it.
PA PATRIOT
01-09-14, 15:55
I have a no bull story about a 1st Gen fully loaded 30rd PMag that I dropped while walking through the woods in 2009, never realized I dropped the magazine until few days later so I never bothered to look for it as I was all over the mountain that day. Late in 2011 while walking near a small creek looking for new stand sites I happen upon the magazine laying on a flat gray slate stone which I must have sat while taking a break years ago. The magazine was still fully loaded but it appear a little furry critter had taken a liken to the base and chew a small hole through. I later mailed the magazine back to MagPul just so they could see how one of their 1st Gen PMags fared out in the woods exposed to all of mother nature but I never heard back from them or did I expect to but I did relate that this magazine when place in the same AR at first failed to feed as the rounds appeared frozen in place but a few palm strikes on the base freed things up and about 30% of the rounds fired but those that did not did hand cycle until the bolt locked back.
I own mostly all metal magazines and maybe six 1st Gen Magpul's so I have no dog in this race other then telling what this one magazine experienced and still remained functionally intact.
Probably not a very applicable comparison for reasons beyond my hobbyist rating, but AK-74 mags seem to hold up pretty well.
Duane, I realize some of your info on your mag composition is proprietary but what can you tell us generally about what from and how PMAGS are made and what is done to increse longevity?
It's not that hard to get a lab to tell you most of what's in any polymer item. There are lots of little gotchas that go into the mix and processing and molding variables that make very, very big differences in end item properties, though. I could give you the exact same material we use and if it's processed/molded differently, the results can be a very long way off.
I will say that we specifically choose base materials, colorants, additives, and reinforcement materials with an eye towards chemical resistance, UV stability, durability, and a specific window of performance parameters and balance of ductility vs rigidity that we've arrived at by testing our attempts and everyone else's, too. Thermotron, high speed video, force gauges, drop fixtures, dust box, and all that jazz. We've messed with just about every viable material out there, and we use what we use for very good reasons.
I will also say that we chose what has to be the most hostile material mix possible when it comes to molding to get all those properties. It takes some special setups to make it work, but it's worth it.
You can submerge our material for days in DEET, brake fluid, hyd fluid, gasoline, bleach, etc., without ill effects (including the new window material we started using with the Gen M3 that is now retroactive through the line), but you can do the same thing with metal. Polymer survives caustic chemicals better, though, and things like salt water are laughable to it as long as the spring holds up.
But, in short, no...I can't give out Uncle Richard's secret chocolate chip cookie recipe. :)
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 17:06
I wasn't asking for the cookie recipe, merely whether it was a chocloate chip or a rasin cookie, some basic, general info so when somebody asks me what one of these are made of I can give them a rudimentary description.
Like is it a type of nylon or is it a polycarbonate(I am sure it sin't with the exception of the window). That type of info. Dog or Cat, not detailed like Border Collie or Persian.
Crow Hunter
01-09-14, 17:15
It's not that hard to get a lab to tell you most of what's in any polymer item. There are lots of little gotchas that go into the mix and processing and molding variables that make very, very big differences in end item properties, though. I could give you the exact same material we use and if it's processed/molded differently, the results can be a very long way off.
I can vouch for that.
We have given the same material specification to 2 different vendors and then tested parts in a Thermotron under the exact same conditions and one suppliers parts wills shrink by 2 or 3 percent while the other will not shrink at all.
It can be something as simple as the humidity in the shop on the day the material was molded/extruded.
Honestly metals are the same way. If the foundry doesn't put in the correct amount of "pixie dust" (inoculants) you can get different properties. That isn't even counting on how it is processed after that point.
There is much more "voodoo" involved in material properties/science than most people realize. (Also why there is a tolerance range on material properties and why they have certs with every batch.;))
It's one of those things where we'd just rather not verify even seemingly harmless bits of info to prevent someone stringing together a bunch of little tidbits to get something useful. Loose lips sinking ships and all. Sorry...not trying to be cute, but a LOT of effort went into getting to what we're using now.
Moose-Knuckle
01-09-14, 17:30
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
Sage advice, I started hoarding in '04 after Clinton's AWB expired. We have 2014 mid-terms coming up and 2016 is just around the corner . . . the choices are not looking too good.
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 17:31
It's one of those things where we'd just rather not verify even seemingly harmless bits of info to prevent someone stringing together a bunch of little tidbits to get something useful. Loose lips sinking ships and all. Sorry...not trying to be cute, but a LOT of effort went into getting to what we're using now.
Understandable, but this is where test reports come in handy to your sales pitch...
"Survived 400 years UV exposure--CHECK"
"Survived 100 hours of 97% salt spray exposure--CHECK"
"Survived 100 ft drop test onto concrete directly onto feed lips--CHECK"
"Survived 2 million cycles of rounds feeding normally past feed lips--CHECK"
I'm thinking of something along the lines of the kind of tests the gun mags used to do with Break Free CLP, etc.
The drop test of the MagPul polymer BUIS convinced me it wasn't junk.
Whattaya think?
It's not that hard to get a lab to tell you most of what's in any polymer item. There are lots of little gotchas that go into the mix and processing and molding variables that make very, very big differences in end item properties, though. I could give you the exact same material we use and if it's processed/molded differently, the results can be a very long way off.
I will say that we specifically choose base materials, colorants, additives, and reinforcement materials with an eye towards chemical resistance, UV stability, durability, and a specific window of performance parameters and balance of ductility vs rigidity that we've arrived at by testing our attempts and everyone else's, too. Thermotron, high speed video, force gauges, drop fixtures, dust box, and all that jazz. We've messed with just about every viable material out there, and we use what we use for very good reasons.
I will also say that we chose what has to be the most hostile material mix possible when it comes to molding to get all those properties. It takes some special setups to make it work, but it's worth it.
You can submerge our material for days in DEET, brake fluid, hyd fluid, gasoline, bleach, etc., without ill effects (including the new window material we started using with the Gen M3 that is now retroactive through the line), but you can do the same thing with metal. Polymer survives caustic chemicals better, though, and things like salt water are laughable to it as long as the spring holds up.
But, in short, no...I can't give out Uncle Richard's secret chocolate chip cookie recipe. :)
All this and you guys still can't make me the T-mag or clear pmag. J/K, but I seriously would love to see the clear pmag come fruition some day.
My confidence in black 30rd pmags in unmatched by any other mag out there fwiw.
Every time I hear someone predict the advent of some plasma energy wonder weapon right out of Star Wars to replace whatever firearm we're talking about I am reminded of the words of wisdom of a military man whose name escapes me:
"Bullets are cheaper."
And Sherman tanks are quite a bit cheaper than an M1A2 Abrams, but you don't see many of them around. The point being that I would be more than a little surprised if by 2050 there has not been developed a stronger than even spider silk highly flexible body armor that might just make bullets obsolete in future warfare. Thus militaries might develop such "plasma" weapons out of sheer necessity, regardless of the cost. Just a thought.
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 17:39
I think you are right about the driver of the next round in small arms development. Once they can cheaply produce Carbon Nanotubes, it's Katie bar the door.
Theoretically a layer of CNT the thickness of a sheet of paper will stop a 50 BMG. Think what a 1/4 inch will do.
I currently own a whopping two NJ modified Pmags and have never dealt with Duane beyond casual past conversation here and except for what I recall at what was at an SOFIC or SHOT (didn't get into M4C or much businesswise there so it's irrelevant). And fact is for whatever reason I own far more metal mags than Pmags, barely a comparison.
That disclaimer aside, him having to defend the essentially blind implication that Pmags are bound to be problematic by nature in a couple decades "out of the wrapper" is pretty unfortunate all circumstances considered. If documentation or even credible word of mouth can be produced to give some credence to the negative assessment then maybe he should have to speak up to some extent in their defense. Otherwise it seems he is compelled to jump through hoops needlessly and unjustly.
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 17:49
And Sherman tanks are quite a bit cheaper than an M1A2 Abrams, but you don't see many of them around. The point being that I would be more than a little surprised if by 2050 there has not been developed a stronger than even spider silk highly flexible body armor that might just make bullets obsolete in future warfare. Thus militaries might develop such "plasma" weapons out of sheer necessity, regardless of the cost. Just a thought.
It's possible. I also understand the Army recently successfully tested a weapons-grade laser small enough and powerful enough to knock aircraft out of the sky. Technology can't be predicted 100%.
I just say firearms won't completely go away. Your fancy body armor might be defeated by a new, high tech bullet, too.
Doc Safari
01-09-14, 17:52
I currently own a whopping two NJ modified Pmags and have never dealt with Duane beyond casual past conversation here and except for what I recall at what was at an SOFIC or SHOT (didn't get into M4C or much businesswise there so it's irrelevant). And fact is for whatever reason I own far more metal mags than Pmags, barely a comparison.
That disclaimer aside, him having to defend the essentially blind implication that Pmags are bound to be problematic by nature in a couple decades "out of the wrapper" is pretty unfortunate all circumstances considered. If documentation or even credible word of mouth can be produced to give some credence to the negative assessment then maybe he should have to speak up to some extent in their defense. Otherwise it seems he is compelled to jump through hoops needlessly and unjustly.
Not really. Remember that everyone derided Glocks as "the plastic pistol" until its durability was proven. The same will be true of Pmags. If you have a new innovation, you often have to show solid evidence of its utility to get past biases.
That's all. No hoops to jump through. Just common sense evidence of the product's superiority.
Not really. Remember that everyone derided Glocks as "the plastic pistol" until its durability was proven. The same will be true of Pmags. If you have a new innovation, you often have to show solid evidence of its utility to get past biases.
That's all. No hoops to jump through. Just common sense evidence of the product's superiority.
You just solidified my point. Yes, let Magpul wait to say it can last 50 years in the bag, which is far more time than indicated initially. Let questions be asked.
However to implicate that they will surely fail even before then is indeed similar, particularly in it's uneducated fault, to the incorrect the Glock assumptions.
The plastic followers will deteriorate even in metal mags, correct?
This makes me think the thing to do is seek out those all-too-rare Vietnam era metal mags with metal followers.
I've only seen a few over the years, always in beat up condition, of course.
I know a few things about plastics: a lot of plastics can be preserved by keeping them out of UV light (black tends to hold up better than other colors). You also want to keep them out of extremes of heat and cold: no storing them in the freezing garage in the winter or hot vehicle in the summer.
The main problem IIRC is that plastic is a petroleum product, and as the "oiliness" degrades the plastic becomes brittle.
This makes me wonder if the "old school" guns with wood stocks are ultimately superior.
CMMG Inc makes a so called 'immortal mag' I have one, its great, it has a metal follower, and some kind of braided spring. they claim(or did at one time) that you will never kill it
Understandable, but this is where test reports come in handy to your sales pitch...
"Survived 400 years UV exposure--CHECK"
"Survived 100 hours of 97% salt spray exposure--CHECK"
"Survived 100 ft drop test onto concrete directly onto feed lips--CHECK"
"Survived 2 million cycles of rounds feeding normally past feed lips--CHECK"
I'm thinking of something along the lines of the kind of tests the gun mags used to do with Break Free CLP, etc.
The drop test of the MagPul polymer BUIS convinced me it wasn't junk.
Whattaya think?
Doc, we've resisted publishing our internal test results because it would be too easy for someone to say "of course it passed all those tests when you did them yourselves behind closed doors". We did publish the short test video series when the M3 was released, but that's all we've put out so far. We have a fifty-some page test abstract and a voluminous full write-up of the pre-release testing. Might be worth at least talking about what we test to. Testing is also continuous. Always looking for a better mousetrap.
And Trident82, thanks for the endorsement--we have continuous R&D going on a number of material solutions. Never know what we might come up with--it's just gotta meet our standards.
We're currently working on a third party verification that should answer the mail on the test results piece, with unimpeachable objectivity.
sandman99and9
01-09-14, 19:12
I think of magazines as disposable items anyway. I don't just casually throw them away but if during hard use I damage or lose one then no big deal. I have plenty and will add more of each kind. I love my Magpul mags :)
S.M.
MountainRaven
01-09-14, 19:29
Not trying to contradict anyone or start an argument. But I have SIG and AUG magazines from the late 80s that are still running fine with no issues yet.
This.
I have some polymer Rk62 magazines that are probably about as old (I say probably because the Finns apparently didn't see a reason to date stamp them, so I'm not sure there is a way to be certain). Used and abused by possibly generations of Finnish conscripts. And they're still 100%.
Again, not trying to be confrontational, but I reckon that means everybody who carries a Glock should pick up a Browning Hi-Power, too. (For reasons of polymer and not history.) Hey, isn't the first Glock pistol ever made something like 30 years old and still running strong?
Hey, isn't the first Glock pistol ever made something like 30 years old and still running strong?
Clearly not a long enough timeframe! Just wait a couple more years and I'm sure it will turn to powder before your very eyes!
This.
I have some polymer Rk62 magazines that are probably about as old (I say probably because the Finns apparently didn't see a reason to date stamp them, so I'm not sure there is a way to be certain). Used and abused by possibly generations of Finnish conscripts. And they're still 100%.
Again, not trying to be confrontational, but I reckon that means everybody who carries a Glock should pick up a Browning Hi-Power, too. (For reasons of polymer and not history.) Hey, isn't the first Glock pistol ever made something like 30 years old and still running strong?
Polymer vs. steel aside, I think the important message is BUY NOW while suppliers are flush with stock and prices are normalized. Pmags, USGI or both...get them while the getting is good. Cause when it's Hillary vs. Christie 2016 it's gonna be the worst panic buy we've seen so far.
ForTehNguyen
01-09-14, 20:58
doesnt it take 1000s of years for a plastic bottle to biodegrade? Thread makes me want more mags now
Just stumbled on this deal: 10 M3 pmags +$50 PSA GC for $150:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/10-magpul-pmag-m3-mag557-blk.html
Djstorm100
01-09-14, 21:13
Is there another brand of metal mags to look in to other than the ones sold by BCM?
I've always seen different color followers but not sure which one to get..100% that is. Think it's yellow since that's the ones bcm sells
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....
That disclaimer aside, him having to defend the essentially blind implication that Pmags are bound to be problematic by nature in a couple decades "out of the wrapper" is pretty unfortunate all circumstances considered. If documentation or even credible word of mouth can be produced to give some credence to the negative assessment then maybe he should have to speak up to some extent in their defense. Otherwise it seems he is compelled to jump through hoops needlessly and unjustly.
I don't mind, and I'll tell you why... I almost hate to admit it, but when I was at LeJeune and the PMAG first came out, I laughed it off. A plastic magazine? Hogwash. I was resistant to the very idea. The followers worked, though, so I eventually tried the mags. Hmmm. OK, maybe I was hasty. Fast forward. I'm working at Brownells. Learned a LOT about aluminum magazines, the M4 improvement program, enhanced mag, etc. I saw a lot of acceptance testing. Learned that not all metal mags are created equal, and a lot about testing and what a metal mag does well and not well. I was there for the visit from .gov about why Brownells mags passed acceptance with a 0% rejection/failure rate and other "mil-spec" official contractors weren't cutting it. (BTW, from what I'm aware of, the source of BCM magazines does it right, so I'm not trying to bash anyone here.)
Fast forward again, and here I am. I've seen so many magazines of all types and brands destroyed in the name of science that it would make a grown man cry. I've learned a lot more about materials, and things about polymer that I wouldn't believe if I hadn't seen with my own eyes. There are a lot of people here that make me look like the class dunce--not that it's hard to do.
Anyway, long story longer, I understand why folks might be hesitant to accept polymer, because I was initially, also, so I don't mind explaining, within the context of allowable disclosure and not getting into real technical data.
I'm no engineer, but here's what I know: The job of a magazine is to present a cartridge at an acceptable orientation wrt the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles.
The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures.
Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks.
If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. No crack...but a bend. Maybe an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. ( cyclic rates on the same firearm are generally measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal mag--don't worry, we keep up)
If a material is too hard, it will shatter. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but it will shatter under rough handling.
So, we need a balance. The last factor, however is "resiliency". In steel or other metals, it's a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer, except its controlled through composition and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums.
After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to yield the material.
A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with currently used materials. The PMAG is designed to be as rigid as possible while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to deformation that would cause a magazine to misfeed. There are other factors in the design, but we are talking material properties here.
So...can a PMAG crack? Sure, if you try hard enough. It may crack--however, under a force that will deform aluminum/steel mags under the same pressure, especially at temperature extremes, and in testing many other mag materials, it's usually enough deformation to change feed geometry/performance. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it cracks, it generally returns to its exact same orientation and geometry. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. They work. A magazine that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it may be a double-feeding SOB, or embed grit and be crappy at high temps.
So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum.
The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, as discussed previously.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 21:22
doesnt it take 1000s of years for a plastic bottle to biodegrade?
That depends entirely on what kind of Plastic and what conditions it is exposed to.
I bought a Rubbermaid storage container about 25 years ago. I filled it with books and put it back in the attic crawl-space.
I opened the crawl-space a couple months ago and the container had gotten brittle and shattered under the weight of its contents.
It had no sun exposure but was subjected to around 25 year of age and temp extremes ranging from 10 degrees to 140 degrees.
The body was brittle shards. The recycle code listed it as HDPE or High Density Polyethelyne. AKA the cheapest shit imaginable. LDEP or Low Density Polyethelyne is what most food containers are made of like milk jugs and they readily biodegrade, especially when exposed to UV light.
The lid was fully intact and the recycle code was PP or Polypropylene.
The lid was exposed to the same conditions as the body, the exact same ones and yet it appears unfazed by both age and temp. I can bend it into a U and it still snaps back like a new lid, in fact, I saved it for a spare.
Moral of the story, Polymers can be night and day different from one another and some are cheap junk and some are very durable.
Auto plastics are not the best in teh world but usually they will stand up to ten-plus years of UV exposure, even much more with a bit of occasional Armor All. I think most car dashes are Polyvinyl Chlorides or PVC.
When I buy storage containers now, I ALWAYS look for the 'PP' symbol.
Thank you. That was very enlightening.
montanadave
01-09-14, 21:33
Thanks, Duane. This has been an informative thread with good input from a variety of informed sources.
I think you are right about the driver of the next round in small arms development. Once they can cheaply produce Carbon Nanotubes, it's Katie bar the door.
Theoretically a layer of CNT the thickness of a sheet of paper will stop a 50 BMG. Think what a 1/4 inch will do.
It may stop the penetration, but that blunt force trauma has got to be impressive. Does no good to be dead from blunt trauma with a bullet still on your vest.
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 21:34
Do you really think they aren't considering that?
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wild_wild_wes
01-09-14, 21:54
Not to be too flippant, but I put forth the idea all this talk of material longevity is archaic, given 3-D printer technology.
Not to be too flippant, but I put forth the idea all this talk of material longevity is archaic, given 3-D printer technology.
The best a 3D printer can do right now is abysmal in durability, even in carbon builds, and EXPENSIVE. However, who knows what the future will bring.
QuickStrike
01-09-14, 22:14
First the Colorado hi cap mag ban, and now you tell my precious P-mags are slowly wasting away...
What about glocks frames? One of the reasons I like me an all metal gun like a 1911 TBH.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 22:25
WTB: 1911s and AK47s with wood stocks
WTS: Multiple M&Ps, Glocks, Pmags, Magpul stocks/grips/hand guards. All offers considered, buy them fast before they turn to dust.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-14, 22:27
The best a 3D printer can do right now is abysmal in durability, even in carbon builds, and EXPENSIVE. However, who knows what the future will bring.
I will believe in 3D printers as soon as it can print me out an "Earl Gray...............................hot"
First the Colorado hi cap mag ban, and now you tell my precious P-mags are slowly wasting away...
What about glocks frames? One of the reasons I like me an all metal gun like a 1911 TBH.
I'll save you the full read...Your PMAGs and your Glocks will be just fine.
Magazines are disposable just like bolts, buffer springs, etc... If you are really concerned buy some magazines, put them in a black box and then bury them in the closet. I have close to two hundred magazines most of which are PMAG's. I have left them loaded for months and years and I recently pulled some out that were loaded back in 2009. They worked perfectly fine with no issues.
As mentioned. Magazines are cheap and plentiful so get them if and while you can.
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 22:46
One thing is for sure, they will likley never be cheaper than they are today regardless of the political circumstances so there is no downside to purchasing them now.
I've got guitars from the 60's and the plastic on them looks fine. Granted it's not as critical as feed lips on a mag but the thin plastics like pickup trim rings are very thin. Pickguards and knobs... no problems. The little countersunk holes. They do change color but they also not been stored.
Now I do have some old tools where the plastic has actually crystallized and broken, but some of that stuff is 80+ years old and who knows what it was made of.
I would have a hard time believing that a pmag stored in it's wrapper or possibly better yet, vacuum sealed and stored in an ammo can for 20 years is going to be anything but just as good as it was the day it went in. I mean think about old cars and how the vinyl seats used to fall apart. You don't really see that any more.
Now if this storage for 20 years are going to be the last and only mags these kids will ever be able able to own maybe the metal wins out I don't know.
There are some funky plastics out there though. I have some that get sticky/oily feeling over time when stored in temp change. ..and there is one kind that when you open the box will knock a buzzard of a xxxx wagon... it smells like someone threw up in the box. But seriously I built a guitar 20 years ago and it has some sort of polymer nut and bridge saddles. Daily player and sits open to the elements. I have only just recently worn the nut down and that is under heavy tension from the strings. So somebody is making polymers that can stand the test of time. I would hope/expect Magpul has their research together enough to withstand storage.
anyway... I kinda fall in the get some of everything camp but I still believe in the modern technology. Get yourself a 1/2" piece of plexiglass and make yourself an ice scraper. I'm pretty sure you're going to die before you wear it out. ;)
Heavy Metal
01-09-14, 23:06
80+ years?
It was Bakelite. Genuine Bakelite!
DreadPirateMoyer
01-10-14, 00:25
There are some funky plastics out there though. I have some that get sticky/oily feeling over time when stored in temp change. ..and there is one kind that when you open the box will knock a buzzard of a xxxx wagon... it smells like someone threw up in the box.
That's the plasticizer leaking out and/or the material biodegrading if it were made with cellulose or any number of other materials that bacteria can chew up -- stuff usually only present in cheaper, non-synthetic polymers. It smells awful.
As for the rest of this thread, I already knew quite a bit about the materials due to my profession, but man, I still learned a lot. Thanks, Duane and everyone else.
Moral of the story, like Larry and then Duane and then IG and then everyone else said: buy more while you can. They're disposables at the end of the day regardless of what they're made of. :)
Moose-Knuckle
01-10-14, 00:27
That's the plasticizer leaking out and/or the material biodegrading if it were made with cellulose or any number of other materials that bacteria can chew up -- stuff usually only present in cheaper, non-synthetic polymers.
It smells awful.
Yeah I have an old Rubbermaid container that I store extra backpacks in, I throw a dryer sheet in when I open it so my bags won't smell like ass.
ClearedHot
01-10-14, 01:26
Does this materials longevity thing apply to AK mags too? Combloc steel > Circle 10?
Moose-Knuckle
01-10-14, 01:52
Does this materials longevity thing apply to AK mags too? Combloc steel > Circle 10?
Bulgarian Circle 10 mags have steel where it counts.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/circle10mag_zps5f3e4386.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/circle10mag_zps5f3e4386.jpg.html)
Djstorm100
01-10-14, 05:19
What about metal mag that are Teflon coated vs not.
Curious id this is the same mag as bcm sells. http://www.primaryarms.com/Black-Teflon-30rd-AR15-M16-w-MAGPUL-Follow-p/ma-02dsgb.htm
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Bulgarian Circle 10 mags have steel where it counts.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/circle10mag_zps5f3e4386.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/circle10mag_zps5f3e4386.jpg.html)
Combloc polys have steel for two reasons: The engagement surfaces on an AK are way different than those on an AR (much higher stresses there due to "rock n lock") Also, the polymer is so soft, it needs the metal to retain shape and prevent "woodpeckering" on the front inside spine.
It works well in an AK, as there is enough room to make the attachments. The metal feed lips are actually the weak point of a circle 10 during a drop, however. (bends the metal reinforcement changing feed geometry) Don't get me wrong, it's the most durable mag for the AK, even more so than all-steels, even on feed lip drops. I suppose someone could argue that steels can be bent back easier, though, and the AK is fairly forgiving of feed geometry to somewhat allow this--MUCH more forgiving than an AR.
It's four pieces locked in the poly. So, if you're worried about the long term stability of the polymer, it's the interface of the metal and poly that would give out. You have to have enough polymer thickness to lock the insert and still be robust on its own. In an AK mag, there is a good bit of room to make those attachments robust--but they would still be the weak points IF the polymer degraded.
But it won't. Not for a looooooong time.
I see in other places this similar discussion is happening that folks are saying, "Yeah, my Disney key chain got oil on it and got soft, so polymer mags can't be trusted," and things like that. That's the equivalent of saying "I have a screwdriver made out of lead, and it bent and didn't work, so metal screwdrivers can't be trusted."
There are tons of different polymers with tons of different properties. Take a look at the US Army TOP for small arms testing, 3-2-045. There are polymers (ours, and most weapons grade materials) that can handle all of the chemicals in those tests under continuous submersion. There are polymers that turn into laffy taffy in some of them, too. Many polymers have some solvent weakness, especially those that are cheap and easy to mold. Generalizations cannot be made any more than saying metal firearms are dangerous near water because sodium reacts violently with water.
Thanks Grant.
Thread was a good reminder(or good marketing.........). I checked your site Grant and looks like you were out of stock, so to BCM I went. 10 pack of Teflon coated wasn't a bad price.
The BCM/D&H mag with the Magpul follower is the main mag I stockpile.
They ARE in stock: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCM-30MAG
C4
wild_wild_wes
01-10-14, 08:12
The early British SA 80 handguards melted with contact with insect repellent.
Yep DEET is a killer even for some polymers used in firearms parts. It all depends on how important you make DEET resistance. We soak loaded PMAGs in it with no ill effects. You just have to have the right material.
TurretGunner
01-10-14, 08:33
As far as the metal/plastic pissing match, I could care less.
However I would say (which I thought the point of this was going to be), Stock up on ALL MAGS........ G3, AK, AUG, You name it. Mags that are made overseas have the highest probalillity of being banned through simple import regulations. Couple that with REAL bans here and you will see that it would be very wise to stock up now while you can. They are still fairly cheap now so Buy them cheep and stack em deep. Even if you dont own the gun, you may one day. You also may find yourself sitting on a gold mine, like those guys who were buying G3 and FAL mags for $1-2 a pop.
I'm thinking that the AR-15 and your pistols will long become obsolete before you have to worry about any polymer breaking down, if they in fact do break down. After all plastic in landfills and whatnot...
Larry Vickers
01-10-14, 12:19
Man the Magpul fanboys got their panties in a bunch over this post - on my Facebook page they went crazy. I'll say it again ; the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away - this is my personal opinion based on my experience. If you don't agree with it fine - I won't lose a bit of sleep
Some people need to take a step back and look themselves in a mirror when you are so blindly loyal to one brand of anything that you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
lethal dose
01-10-14, 12:36
For me, it has nothing to do with blind loyalty. I only own one Magpul stock and only a handful of their mags. While I respect your opinion, I've seen no concrete evidence leading me to believe that black pmags are significantly less durable than the GI variety. As IG stated, mags are a disposable tool. I've rendered GI mags inoperable on more than one occasion. It seems to me like the fanboyism crosses the line in favor of both parties. Me? I say one should do a little R&D for themselves, figure out what works for them, and soldier on.
Man the Magpul fanboys got their panties in a bunch over this post - on my Facebook page they went crazy. I'll say it again ; the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away - this is my personal opinion based on my experience. If you don't agree with it fine - I won't loose a bit of sleep
Some people need to take a step back and look themselves in a mirror when you are so blindly loyal to one brand of anything that you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
...you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
That's always the fair thing to do, no doubt. But I think a lot of this started as a direct result of a professional's assessment that offered no tangible pros or cons in the first place, one that can be interpreted as rather damning. Unless there is evidence to offer that Pmags are likely to deteriorate while sealed in 20 or whatever years this discussion was destined for predictable controversy.
I don't see it as fanboyism if folks questioned a suggestion. I'm personally grateful it lead to a pretty educational discussion. More than I've ever really cared to know about polymers but a good read nonetheless.
The people on FB just need to recognize that it was just a commercial to sell some BCM mags. They are on their way to being sold out now so mission accomplished.
Given the rifle they just donated, that would be awesome.
Man the Magpul fanboys got their panties in a bunch over this post - on my Facebook page they went crazy. I'll say it again ; the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away - this is my personal opinion based on my experience. If you don't agree with it fine - I won't lose a bit of sleep
Some people need to take a step back and look themselves in a mirror when you are so blindly loyal to one brand of anything that you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
I respect the service that you've given to our country as much as the next guy. What you've sacrificed in your career can really never be repaid, but that doesn't give a free pass for calling someone a fanboy because they don't drink a certain brand of koolaid...that's disingenuous at best. This was, afterall, an issue with polymer and not brands....right?
As others have said though, this debate has brought out some great info as well.
wild_wild_wes
01-10-14, 13:34
the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away
This seems to be a sensible course of action, if you have many of each.
I have so many USGI mags I'm in the process of rehabbing with new springs and Magpul followers that it will take quite a while to ensure that each functions reliably until it is stored away.
How many rounds should be put through a mag before it is determined to be nominal?
Given the rifle they just donated, that would be awesome.BCM stepped up in donating that rifle in AC's memory no doubt!
I called it in post #6! ROFL! People will fight to the death defending their purchases. In the big picture, who gives a shit. If you like what you bought, run it.USGI and Magpul BOTH have their fanboys that's for sure. Luckily for everyone they are both good to go short and long term. Stock and run both!
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4
DreadPirateMoyer
01-10-14, 14:22
Man the Magpul fanboys got their panties in a bunch over this post - on my Facebook page they went crazy. I'll say it again ; the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away - this is my personal opinion based on my experience. If you don't agree with it fine - I won't lose a bit of sleep
Some people need to take a step back and look themselves in a mirror when you are so blindly loyal to one brand of anything that you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
I didn't see any of the posts on Facebook, so I can't speak for that, but I think most of the hullabaloo in this thread wasn't fanboyism. I didn't see much of it, at least. It was just a discussion, like you said, on the rational pros and cons of a given topic, all originating with one professonal's claim of material properties that wasn't true. Modern, quality polymers like those in PMAGs don't do what was originally stated ("All plastic deteriorates over time"). They don't degrade over time in storage, and if you stockpile them, they'll be just as fine as metal magazines. That's all.
We're all adults here, and I actually think this was one of the better discussions I've seen on this forum in the 2'ish years I've been here.
TurretGunner
01-10-14, 14:28
Pmags havent even been around 10 years........ NO one knows how they will hold up to typical long term storage and use conditions.
I think Mr. Vickers makes a valid point.
Personaly, PMAGS are a solution looking for a problem. At $5 or less per...... then we might be talking... but when I can get a USGI mag that functions just as well, and has a slimer/smaller profile... for cheaper... its a no brainer.
USGI mags have proven to last decades...they are a known quanitity. You can also store them in less volume than it would take PMAGS, which is another consideration.
Whatever you buy.... get while you can.
Doc Safari
01-10-14, 14:33
Pmags havent even been around 10 years........ NO one knows how they will hold up to typical long term storage and use conditions.
I think Mr. Vickers makes a valid point.
Personaly, PMAGS are a solution looking for a problem. At $5 or less per...... then we might be talking... but when I can get a USGI mag that functions just as well, and has a slimer/smaller profile... for cheaper... its a no brainer.
USGI mags have proven to last decades...they are a known quanitity. You can also store them in less volume than it would take PMAGS, which is another consideration.
Whatever you buy.... get while you can.
I think this post sums up this thread perfectly.
Bottom line: even if Pmags are 100% GTG, they haven't been around long enough for long-term evaluation. Aluminum USGI mags have. Stick to Colt, NHMTG, or other known aluminum military-grade mags and you don't need to worry about Pmags.
The wise person errs on the side of common sense, and common sense says you stockpile USGI aluminum mags because they have been around long enough to be a known quantity.
It is no more complicated than that.
DreadPirateMoyer
01-10-14, 14:35
Pmags havent even been around 10 years........ NO one knows how they will hold up to typical long term storage and use conditions.
That's simply not true. We have decades-old examples of less-advanced polymers that are just as good now as they were when they were first made in the 60s. We also have lots of prescriptive testing telling us what weakens modern polymers like those used in PMAGs -- modern polymers that are even more advanced, reliable, durable, and stronger than those from decades ago that are still fine today.
This discussion is bordering on "keeping magazines loaded will weaken the springs/lubing your AR-15 will attract dust and jam it" territory. Weird stuff.
Man the Magpul fanboys got their panties in a bunch over this post - on my Facebook page they went crazy. I'll say it again ; the polymer mags are the ones you use now and metal mags are ones you stash away - this is my personal opinion based on my experience. If you don't agree with it fine - I won't lose a bit of sleep
Some people need to take a step back and look themselves in a mirror when you are so blindly loyal to one brand of anything that you can't rationally sort thru the pros and cons of a given topic - this applies to any company or products, not just Magpul
Thanks for the reminder to stock up and well vetted opinion on which mags you prefer.
I've come to the conclusion that some people no matter how much evidence, or research is presented supporting the Pmag, they'll never change they're skeptical, or overall negative opinion on them. Gotta appreciate the fact that Duane and others from Magpul come on M4C daily and share copious amts of info on their products. That can't be said for lots of other major players in the AR market place. To me this aspect to Magpul has always made me very confident in the product they put out.
That's perfectly ok with me.....it just means more cheap avail. pmags for myself and the tons of other pro pmag folks.
Crow Hunter
01-10-14, 14:50
That's simply not true. We have decades-old examples of less-advanced polymers that are just as good now as they were when they were first made in the 60s. We also have lots of prescriptive testing telling us what weakens modern polymers like those used in PMAGs -- modern polymers that are even more advanced, reliable, durable, and stronger than those from decades ago that are still fine today.
This discussion is bordering on "keeping magazines loaded will weaken the springs/lubing your AR-15 will attract dust and jam it" territory. Weird stuff.
On top of that there are very well documented standards, ASTM and otherwise that can be used to simulate acclerated aging/UV resistance/fatigue breakdown/thermal performance/salt spray or a combination of all of them in lots of different materials. Based on my experience, they are dead on to a little beyond "real life".
Most, if not all the products, everyone uses in their daily lives have been tested using these standards.
That being said, I use NHMTG magazines but that is because I like them better (and some technical research that I did). I still have 1 PMAG of the 100 that I bought years ago because the dust cover snapped on to the bottom of the magazine works GREAT for unloading magazines. :p
That's perfectly ok with me.....it just means more cheap avail. pmags for myself and the tons of other pro pmag fanboys.
Fixed it for ya ;)
Regardless of your thoughts on polymer vs. aluminum mags, I learn a hell of a lot just by reading the SME/Industry Reps postings on particular topics.
Moose-Knuckle
01-10-14, 15:04
Combloc polys have steel for two reasons: The engagement surfaces on an AK are way different than those on an AR (much higher stresses there due to "rock n lock") Also, the polymer is so soft, it needs the metal to retain shape and prevent "woodpeckering" on the front inside spine.
It works well in an AK, as there is enough room to make the attachments. The metal feed lips are actually the weak point of a circle 10 during a drop, however. (bends the metal reinforcement changing feed geometry) Don't get me wrong, it's the most durable mag for the AK, even more so than all-steels, even on feed lip drops. I suppose someone could argue that steels can be bent back easier, though, and the AK is fairly forgiving of feed geometry to somewhat allow this--MUCH more forgiving than an AR.
It's four pieces locked in the poly. So, if you're worried about the long term stability of the polymer, it's the interface of the metal and poly that would give out. You have to have enough polymer thickness to lock the insert and still be robust on its own. In an AK mag, there is a good bit of room to make those attachments robust--but they would still be the weak points IF the polymer degraded.
But it won't. Not for a looooooong time.
I see in other places this similar discussion is happening that folks are saying, "Yeah, my Disney key chain got oil on it and got soft, so polymer mags can't be trusted," and things like that. That's the equivalent of saying "I have a screwdriver made out of lead, and it bent and didn't work, so metal screwdrivers can't be trusted."
There are tons of different polymers with tons of different properties. Take a look at the US Army TOP for small arms testing, 3-2-045. There are polymers (ours, and most weapons grade materials) that can handle all of the chemicals in those tests under continuous submersion. There are polymers that turn into laffy taffy in some of them, too. Many polymers have some solvent weakness, especially those that are cheap and easy to mold. Generalizations cannot be made any more than saying metal firearms are dangerous near water because sodium reacts violently with water.
Thanks for the education Duane, I look forward to MOE AK mags shipping after SHOT.
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
I greatly appreciate the first post Mr. V.
I read, understood and agreed with it immediately.
But other than prices being down right now and the theory of metal mags standing the test of time better, was there any other thought behind the idea?
Being very involved in the firearm industry and in tune with our 2A rights, do you foresee something threatening to our beloved 30 round magazines in the future?
Thanks for your time, sir.
Enough of the snarky comments, pointless "buy what you like", "yeah! what he said", and argumentative comments in this thread.
SMEs and IPs have spoken, offered advice, and prompted some technical discussion that can be fascinating and educational. If you don't have a question or comment that furthers the discussion, please refrain from posting.
JBecker 72
01-10-14, 16:04
I've been thinking about this lately. I need to stock up on some more HK mags for my pistols and I had planned on buying some more PMags and the USGI mags Bravo Company sells with the Magpul follower. I'm glad things have stabilized for the most part, and it's cool to see $12 PMags at the local stores again. And while ammo is a bit on the high side, at least I can find it at the local gun shops and Walmart.
Time to stock up indeed. I didn't get caught with my pants down last year, but I certainly didn't have as much ammo as I would have liked and it cut into my range time.
Boba Fett v2
01-10-14, 16:28
I've no doubt my pmags will probably outlive me, but I've got a healthy stash of aluminum and steel mags as well. If we do start seeing pmags deteriorate down the road, can we assume polymer pistol frames will too?
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
Whiskey_Bravo
01-10-14, 16:29
The BCM/D&H mag with the Magpul follower is the main mag I stockpile.
They ARE in stock: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCM-30MAG
C4
Thanks Grant. Not sure how I missed it. I could have sworn it said "not in stock" , maybe I was just so used to seeing that everywhere. I owe you an order.
Outlander Systems
01-10-14, 16:51
The walk away from all this, is to get what you can, while you can.
In a few years we might be kicking ourselves for not buying Thermolds.
The point being, mags are available now, and they ain't getting any cheaper. Aluminum oxidation has some unique properties, one being that aluminum "rust", actually acts as a barrier to further decay.
So, if we're talking stashing some back for the great grand kids, Mr. Vickers assertion, while on the surface sensational, is not without validity.
DreadPirateMoyer
01-10-14, 18:21
The point being, mags are available now, and they ain't getting any cheaper. Aluminum oxidation has some unique properties, one being that aluminum "rust", actually acts as a barrier to further decay.
So, if we're talking stashing some back for the great grand kids, Mr. Vickers assertion, while on the surface sensational, is not without validity.
Well, yes and no. It acts as a barrier to further oxidization in air, but actual water can and does wash away the aluminum oxide layer and will actually "rust" the aluminum faster than even steel. Same goes for UV rays and polymer magazines, at least in terms of being mortal enemies..
Water and UV rays, conveniently, are not present in storage. :) Both magazines will be fine a century from now. My collection is at half and half, which I think is much smarter than only one magazine type. It hedges your bets against two different mechanisms of decay. :)
Outlander Systems
01-10-14, 18:55
Well, yes and no. It acts as a barrier to further oxidization in air, but actual water can and does wash away the aluminum oxide layer and will actually "rust" the aluminum faster than even steel. Same goes for UV rays and polymer magazines, at least in terms of being mortal enemies..
Water and UV rays, conveniently, are not present in storage. :) Both magazines will be fine a century from now. My collection is at half and half, which I think is much smarter than only one magazine type. It hedges your bets against two different mechanisms of decay. :)
UV wreaks havoc on just about everything.
The prudent thing to do, as with any investment, is to diversify.
As a side show to taking this thread too seriously, I have been secretly doing a very thorough and exhaustive test on polymers. In this particular test, a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm. Duane, your results may be a tad bit askew. This is what happened when I opened the box to my Smith after years of being dormant:
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/0417fa5a-001e-4362-bd2d-d2808a9ff24e_zps8574c51e.jpg (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/jaxman7/media/0417fa5a-001e-4362-bd2d-d2808a9ff24e_zps8574c51e.jpg.html)
Whiskey_Bravo
01-10-14, 20:21
lol,
Maybe I should just stick to my first whiskey tonight. I was looking at the pic as close as I could looking for rust or any other problems. Then it hit me. Well done sir.
Thanks Whiskey. :) Point is there are more serious things to worry about fellas. No point in eating our own over something so trivial.
-Jax
I have a bad feeling about the Hillary 2016 thingie.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-10-14, 23:47
I have a bad feeling about the Hillary 2016 thingie.
Same here, after thinking "there is no way these retards will elect Obama" I am a little more than jaded.
These are my favorite aluminum mags. http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_magazine_magpul_follower/223_ar15_magazines
It's easy for Magpul to say that when the company hasn't been in business for longer than a decade ( making mags that is ) !!!! Proof is in the pudding - ALL plastic deteriorate over time ; if you want to stockpile magazines for a potential future ban metal mags make sense
Plastic mags are the ones you use now
25year old plastic mag user here..the mags not me..and although they are not fml and don't drop, they function 100% and are Glock. There's no other viable option for me in metal.
I hear you on the AR side of things
....digging your new two tone...sans fcs thank heavens
I always follow the money when someone "in the industry" makes a recommendation. Larry Vickers works for BCM, he's going to recommend BCM products. If you feel that the polymer extractor buffer, buffer pad, stocks, VFG's, and Gunfighter grips are going to work (and I figure they should, considering that they do, even on M16's from the 60's), then I see no reason why the polymer in the Magpul PMAG, Lancer L5 AWM, etc. shouldn't. Considering the polymer followers in the BCM magazines, I see no reason to recommend them other than to profit BCM, which is Larry Vickers job. I just don't see the logic in the recommendation considering all of the other polymer bits on the weapon and in the BCM magazines themselves. YMMV.
HK VP70's are still safe to use. See a lot more stress on that frame than a magazine sees.
Remington Nylon 66 stocks aren't falling apart.
Vietnam era M16's work fine.
I think ammo is more of a weak-link than a polymer magazine.
Considering the durability of the current plastics used in magazines has been discussed, I thought some might find this amusing. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/581741_The_Unscientific_Plastic_Magazine_Test___Videos_pg15___Part_2_pg16___mobile_users_56k_do_not_click_.html
Its okay to stockpile some extra mags. But to me it is a lot more important to stockpile the ammo that goes in the mags.
Maybe. But as far as I know there have been no ammo bans passed in any state legislatures. How many states have now passed magazine limit bans in the last 6 months? 5 or 6? My philosophy is to get first what they are going after first.
I always follow the money when someone "in the industry" makes a recommendation. Larry Vickers works for BCM, he's going to recommend BCM products. If you feel that the polymer extractor buffer, buffer pad, stocks, VFG's, and Gunfighter grips are going to work (and I figure they should, considering that they do, even on M16's from the 60's), then I see no reason why the polymer in the Magpul PMAG, Lancer L5 AWM, etc. shouldn't. Considering the polymer followers in the BCM magazines, I see no reason to recommend them other than to profit BCM, which is Larry Vickers job. I just don't see the logic in the recommendation considering all of the other polymer bits on the weapon and in the BCM magazines themselves. YMMV.
HK VP70's are still safe to use. See a lot more stress on that frame than a magazine sees.
Remington Nylon 66 stocks aren't falling apart.
Vietnam era M16's work fine.
I think ammo is more of a weak-link than a polymer magazine.
I am going to go out on limb and guess that you don't really know LAV.
Let's make this simple and to the point:
1. Mr. Vickers NEVER mentioned BCM in his first post. There are metric truck loads of steel and Alum. mags out there. Buy whatever you like.
2. BCM does NOT make mags. On top of this, BCM stocks mags like they stock buffer springs (which they don't make either). Mags are a necessary evil for a firearms manufacturer to have in large QTY's so they can include one with every firearm. Knowing how much money they have in these mags, trust me when I say that the hassle of stocking thousands of mags is not worth the squeeze.
3. Mr. Vickers is a consultant for BCM. Typically speaking, consultants are not salesmen. They provide vital feedback in the engineering process of a new product.
4. Plastic parts on your guns are NOT going to be banned. 30rd mags can and probably will be banned at some point in our future. Mr. Vickers has recommended the use BLACK PMAG's for as long as I have known him. So to say that he is somehow anti-plastic is foolish.
5. From a compatibility standpoint, Alum mags are king. They are much more likely to work with AR's that have tighter magwells, AR's with with overly long/flared magwells and none AR15 firearms that accept USGI mags. Aluminum mags are also cheaper allowing the consumer to buy more of them.
So incase you missed it, Mr. Vickers post was to make sure that people realized that it is a VERY good idea to hoard mags (especially now since prices are very low). If you want to go the plastic route? Great! If you want to go Alum or steel, awesome! If you want to buy some of each (which is what I do), then even better.
C4
Its okay to stockpile some extra mags. But to me it is a lot more important to stockpile the ammo that goes in the mags.
I think Belloc nailed it. There is some wisdom with your statement though. Ammo prices go up about 10% a year. So do what I do and hoard both!
C4
Maybe. But as far as I know there have been no ammo bans passed in any state legislatures. How many states have now passed magazine limit bans in the last 6 months? 5 or 6? My philosophy is to get first what they are going after first.
If they have their way, they will not have to ban ammo, just regulate it and make to expensive to shoot let alone wear your mags out. While ammo has came down some lately, just like gasoline we are only another tragedy away from it spiking up again, with no end in sight. I would rather have 30 mags with 60,000 rds of ammo than 100 mags with 6000 rds of ammo.
C4 nailed it, you need to stockpile both.
Fair enough, but again, making things expensive is rather an entirely different problem than making things a felony.
.... I see no reason to recommend them other than to profit BCM, which is Larry Vickers job. I just don't see the logic in the recommendation considering all of the other polymer bits on the weapon and in the BCM magazines themselves. YMMV.
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.....
He never mentioned BCM and everyone on the forum probably knows 10 different place they can buy metal mags for a price within $1 of each other. Also BCM sells MAGPUL. ... and what's really funny is that at the time of the original post BCM had a sale on metal mags so it would have been a win / win for everyone....... unless you think industry experts got to be that way by not being in the industry. You can't remove industry professionals from the industry and still have an industry that educates the masses as part of value in the products and technology they sell. In fact, the more complex and vertical the market becomes the fewer professionals there are with specific knowledge and in a worse case situation you can end up with only one guy that really knows what's going on with a given item or technique. Even then you can not remove that person from his/her affiliations as that is counter productive to the desired goals.
What does anyone care if BCM and Larry make money when 20 people sell the same product for the same price? It just makes no sense.... the money you need to follow is that which stays in your pocket for getting good advice.
Devildawg2531
01-12-14, 19:10
I took the advice and ordered a 10 pack of mags from BCM. This gives me about 30 of the D&H mags that Grant has recommended and 10 PMags. Both have been 100% in both my DD and BCM AR.
I think the message in the thread is to stock pile mags while prices are low and they're still legal in most states to purchase. Otherwise, who gives a shit?
Considering the durability of the current plastics used in magazines has been discussed, I thought some might find this amusing. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/581741_The_Unscientific_Plastic_Magazine_Test___Videos_pg15___Part_2_pg16___mobile_users_56k_do_not_click_.html
Enjoyed it a bunch...
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.....
He never mentioned BCM and everyone on the forum probably knows 10 different place they can buy metal mags for a price within $1 of each other. Also BCM sells MAGPUL. ... and what's really funny is that at the time of the original post BCM had a sale on metal mags so it would have been a win / win for everyone....... unless you think industry experts got to be that way by not being in the industry. You can't remove industry professionals from the industry and still have an industry that educates the masses as part of value in the products and technology they sell. In fact, the more complex and vertical the market becomes the fewer professionals there are with specific knowledge and in a worse case situation you can end up with only one guy that really knows what's going on with a given item or technique. Even then you can not remove that person from his/her affiliations as that is counter productive to the desired goals.
What does anyone care if BCM and Larry make money when 20 people sell the same product for the same price? It just makes no sense.... the money you need to follow is that which stays in your pocket for getting good advice.
He recommended the bcm 100 pack specifically by name.
I don't mind it, or bcm making money. I'm just saying that last year or so it was polymer tango down mags. This is a non-issue, is what I'm saying.
If you haven't already, please take the advice of LAV and stock up on *quality* AR15 mags, aluminum, polymer or steel ones now. I imagine the same goes for the over 10rd pistol mags. Because nobody wants to hear the whining later in a " lets start a thread to remember those who screwed us over " when the prices went through the roof thread. Just don't forget the ammo, because the other side funded by Mr. Big Gulp sure hasn't. Because what starts in the f...e p.....g state usually travels east.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/post/california-democrats-will-push-background-checks-for-ammunition/2014/01/10/afbdc4ec-79e6-11e3-a647-a19deaf575b3_blog.html
Doc, we've resisted publishing our internal test results because it would be too easy for someone to say "of course it passed all those tests when you did them yourselves behind closed doors". We did publish the short test video series when the M3 was released, but that's all we've put out so far. We have a fifty-some page test abstract and a voluminous full write-up of the pre-release testing. Might be worth at least talking about what we test to. Testing is also continuous. Always looking for a better mousetrap.
And Trident82, thanks for the endorsement--we have continuous R&D going on a number of material solutions. Never know what we might come up with--it's just gotta meet our standards.
We're currently working on a third party verification that should answer the mail on the test results piece, with unimpeachable objectivity.
I tried to reproduce the frozen gen 3 drop on feed lips on concrete and on drop 2 absolutely destroyed the mag. So i can understand the reticence to publish internal data.
People like me would end up with our own results and so forth.
I think Belloc nailed it. There is some wisdom with your statement though. Ammo prices go up about 10% a year. So do what I do and hoard both!
C4
Agreed and a hair off topic....
but I find it funny when I hear people say something like "can't wait for ammo prices to come back down" when I feel for the most part they're not....ever....the days of for instance .25 cent 45acp are gone forever.
montanadave
01-13-14, 08:20
Agreed and a hair off topic....
but I find it funny when I hear people say something like "can't wait for ammo prices to come back down" when I feel for the most part they're not....ever....the days of for instance .25 cent 45acp are gone forever.
This? This is what you post first thing Monday morning?
A little part of me just died. :p
I think the overall advice to stock up on Mags right now is definitely sound. These prices are as low as I've seen in ages. No reason not to purchase 10-20 at a time of whatever type of mag. Ammunition is also another item to stock up on while prices are relatively low at this point.
Doc Safari
01-13-14, 10:50
Frankly, you have to stock up on everything firearms-related.
I remember during one of the so-called "panics" you couldn't find an Aimpoint T1 to save your life.
It was that bad.
PatrioticDisorder
01-13-14, 22:39
It's easy for Magpul to say that when the company hasn't been in business for longer than a decade ( making mags that is ) !!!! Proof is in the pudding - ALL plastic deteriorate over time ; if you want to stockpile magazines for a potential future ban metal mags make sense
Plastic mags are the ones you use now
What about something like the Lancer AWM with the metal feed lips but polymer body?
Traveshamockery
01-14-14, 05:56
The market appears to be dealing with a massive oversupply of black rifles and the magazines that feed them. They're never gonna get less expensive. PMags weren't this cheap for years BEFORE Newtown.
Would it be reasonable to ask for a list of recommended manufacturers or model no's etc. of metal AR magazines?
I've no idea what metal AR15 mags would be considered good and which are to be avoided.
Thanks!
Would it be reasonable to ask for a list of recommended manufacturers or model no's etc. of metal AR magazines?
I've no idea what metal AR15 mags would be considered good and which are to be avoided.
Thanks!
Check out this thread on GI mags, mods, comparisons, etc: "Move back to GI magazines - a journey"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?81074
Skintop911,
Thank you very much!
Does anybody know who makes Bushmaster branded magazines?
I see them locally and was wondering if they were made by somebody for Bushmaster or if BM actually makes them and if they are GTG or total crap?
Traveshamockery
01-14-14, 10:49
Does anybody know who makes Bushmaster branded magazines?
I see them locally and was wondering if they were made by somebody for Bushmaster or if BM actually makes them and if they are GTG or total crap?
Given how cheap NHMTG, Magpul, and D&H mags are right now, why even fool with unknown Bushmaster mags?
I saw a guy buying $8.99 Thermold mags over $9.99 PMAGs recently. He's now probably bad mouthing ARs and how they "jam" all the time.
Eurodriver
01-14-14, 10:53
Given how cheap NHMTG, Magpul, and D&H mags are right now, why even fool with unknown Bushmaster mags?
I saw a guy buying $8.99 Thermold mags over $9.99 PMAGs recently. He's now probably bad mouthing ARs and how they "jam" all the time.
I understand your point, but I have had several Bushmaster magazines last me several thousand rounds over 8+ years.
Going off a sample size of ~5 Bushmaster mags and 100+ PMAGs and D&H, my Bushmaster mags are among my most reliable.
I'm not sure who makes them, or if they are still made the same way they were made in 2006, but mine are great.
Given how cheap NHMTG, Magpul, and D&H mags are right now, why even fool with unknown Bushmaster mags?
I saw a guy buying $8.99 Thermold mags over $9.99 PMAGs recently. He's now probably bad mouthing ARs and how they "jam" all the time.
Because in my area they're priced right in line with PMAGs and if they're made by D&H or NHMTG for Bushmaster then I'll buy some, if they're not then I will pass on them and spend my money else where.
I like buying stuff locally with cash whenever possible.
Traveshamockery
01-14-14, 11:01
Because in my area they're priced right in line with PMAGs and if they're made by D&H or NHMTG for Bushmaster then I'll buy some, if they're not then I will pass on them and spend my money else where.
I like buying stuff locally with cash whenever possible.
Fair enough. If you can post photos people around here can surely identify the OEM.
brickboy240
01-14-14, 11:38
I have been quietly stocking up on mags myself.
Having already stockpiled a ton of 9mm and 45 ammo, I have gone about making sure all my auto pistols have at least 10 mags apiece. Bought more AK mags as well as P-Mags and now have 15 P-mags and 20 mags for the AK. Mags are everywhere and will not get any cheaper, you know.
AIM Surplus has some excellent Polish AK mags for 9 bucks a pop. Buy them now. I see P-mags in every gun store I go into these days.
Yes...this is THE time to stock up on these things and increase your supply. One more crazy shooting and the mags will disappear again, you know. Don't be "that guy" with only 2 or 3 mags for your rifle or pistol.
-brickboy240
Crow Hunter
01-14-14, 12:19
Because in my area they're priced right in line with PMAGs and if they're made by D&H or NHMTG for Bushmaster then I'll buy some, if they're not then I will pass on them and spend my money else where.
I like buying stuff locally with cash whenever possible.
Look for the CAGE code.
It should be stamped somewhere on the body. That should tell you which supplier made it. Once you get the CAGE code, just search it on Google.
At one time many moons ago they were manufactured by Labelle (now D&H, I think).
I have no idea if they still do or not.
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-58553.html
Good advice Larry. Spending a bit here and there all year long on ammo, mags and other firearm related products is really good advice in general. Easier to build up a good stock that way.
I bought about (50) assorted P-mags and NHMTG/D&H magazines prior to the CO mag ban was enacted July 1 2013, but I could not find S&W M&P 9MM (17) round magazines (OTher than $100.00 per mag prices on gun broker et al...) prior to the ban, so I have fewer than I would like.
I'll have to take a road trip to Wyomming and buy some if I can find them there...
Can't wait for the laws to be repealed!
Out of curiousity, how come people in this forum never recommend the mags sold by Brownell's? Is it just the Gen 2 USGI/green follower vs a Magpul follower, or is there some underlying defect with them?
montanadave
01-14-14, 15:11
Out of curiousity, how come people in this forum never recommend the mags sold by Brownell's? Is it just the Gen 2 USGI/green follower vs a Magpul follower, or is there some underlying defect with them?
Kinda curious about that myself. Brownell's has 'em on sale right now for $9.99. Even if you opted to swap out the followers, they're still pretty cheap.
Crow Hunter
01-14-14, 15:25
Out of curiousity, how come people in this forum never recommend the mags sold by Brownell's? Is it just the Gen 2 USGI/green follower vs a Magpul follower, or is there some underlying defect with them?
This is why I choose and recommend NHMTG/OKAY over all others.
http://www.okayind.com/
These guys obviously have a very serious amount of knowledge on manufacturing lots of products. Normally that type of stuff (procedures/quality systems/gauging/etc) carries over into all products made by that company.
Brownells... They have a very thick catalog of stuff that other manufacturer's make that they sell. ;)
Does that mean their magazines are bad? I don't know. I have never bought or used one. I also don't know their business practices. I don't know their quality control. I don't even know who actually makes their magazines or if they have one of their warehouses set up with some stamping machines and an assembly line.
I can actually go to OKAY's website and see what they do. A company working in Automotive and Medical Device industries must have some decent quality controls. Having worked for 10 years as an engineer in the Automotive industry I go with what I know.
justin_247
01-14-14, 15:45
I understand your point, but I have had several Bushmaster magazines last me several thousand rounds over 8+ years.
Going off a sample size of ~5 Bushmaster mags and 100+ PMAGs and D&H, my Bushmaster mags are among my most reliable.
I'm not sure who makes them, or if they are still made the same way they were made in 2006, but mine are great.
That is a good question. Who makes Bushmaster mags? They do seem to be reliable.
Crow Hunter
01-14-14, 16:03
That is a good question. Who makes Bushmaster mags? They do seem to be reliable.
What is the CAGE code on the magazine body?
If it doesn't have one, it probably isn't one of the big players. (As in don't sell to government entities).
...Get yourself a 1/2" piece of plexiglass and make yourself an ice scraper. I'm pretty sure you're going to die before you wear it out. ;)
Maybe a bit off topic, but- no. I've made and worn out several plexiglass ice scrapers
Important message- Prepare For The Worst, Hope For The Best. More Mags. More Ammo. Campaign for Liberty so we'll feel foolish for stockpiling both
Lost River
01-14-14, 16:11
I don't pretend to have a background in magazine manufacturing. That being said, I have wrenched on many an M4/M16 series at various embassies. At a couple locations I have run into OLD receivers that have been in service for DECADES and in spite of lack of finish on the aluminum, they are still running strong.
Aluminum lasts and lasts, in spite of obviously hard use.
As an example, here is a pic of an M4/M16A2E. Most don't even know the variation exists.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/M4M16A2E.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/M4M16A2E.jpg.html)
This is a gun that belongs to an agency that uses and uses guns, repeatedly rebuilding them, over and over.
I have seen damaged receivers that are unserviceable, but I have yet to see one that is unserviceable from shooting/being worn out.
The point is that in spite of it being decades old, it is still in service.
Mags are pretty similar. I've seen, issued and been issued GI mags that are decades old and still performing. I understand that todays polymers are pretty good, but I doubt they would hang side by side with GI mags, through hard use, decade after decade. I used both types while overseas, eventually going to all Colt mags for operations. Never a single issue in using them on a regular basis.
Mags are an expendable item, never forget that. However with a bit of care, a high quality mag is an item that does not often need replaced. I have GI 20 rounders that I have been using for 20 + years for recreational/hunting purposes at home. In spite of year round use, they will likely continue to serve well for decades.
I know what works and has worked for me.
Caveat Emptor
Cheers!
This thread was a great reminder and the current market was a great opportunity to spend some $$ on a bunch of 30 rounders. As I don't want to add more fuel to the fire, I'll keep my selection private.
TurretGunner
01-14-14, 17:08
This is why I choose and recommend NHMTG/OKAY over all others.
http://www.okayind.com/
These guys obviously have a very serious amount of knowledge on manufacturing lots of products. Normally that type of stuff (procedures/quality systems/gauging/etc) carries over into all products made by that company.
Brownells... They have a very thick catalog of stuff that other manufacturer's make that they sell. ;)
Does that mean their magazines are bad? I don't know. I have never bought or used one. I also don't know their business practices. I don't know their quality control. I don't even know who actually makes their magazines or if they have one of their warehouses set up with some stamping machines and an assembly line.
I can actually go to OKAY's website and see what they do. A company working in Automotive and Medical Device industries must have some decent quality controls. Having worked for 10 years as an engineer in the Automotive industry I go with what I know.
Brownells Magazines are Fantastic, and in Fact, they are my go to USGI mag. They are also what much of the military uses. MOST units will put in large orders for brownells as they are a GSA Scheduled/NSN Item. They go on sale everyonce in a while and with a dealer account, you can get 10/$90 or $125 with ranger plates.
Outlander Systems
01-14-14, 17:12
Brownells Magazines are Fantastic, and in Fact, they are my go to USGI mag. They are also what much of the military uses. MOST units will put in large orders for brownells as they are a GSA Scheduled/NSN Item. They go on sale everyonce in a while and with a dealer account, you can get 10/$90 or $125 with ranger plates.
I've used Brownells mags to good effect.
If I am not mistaken, they are DH/LaBelle, or at least, they were when I was buying the shit out of them.
TurretGunner
01-14-14, 17:20
I've used Brownells mags to good effect.
If I am not mistaken, they are DH/LaBelle, or at least, they were when I was buying the shit out of them.
Yup with upgraded/magpul followers or clones..... great mags.
Boba Fett v2
01-14-14, 17:53
Out of curiousity, how come people in this forum never recommend the mags sold by Brownell's? Is it just the Gen 2 USGI/green follower vs a Magpul follower, or is there some underlying defect with them?
I'm running the cheap steel mags sold by Brownells. No issues to report. Keep that shit a best-kept-secret so we can continue to buy them at a reasonable cost.
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
I'm running the cheap steel mags sold by Brownells. No issues to report. Keep that shit a best-kept-secret so we can continue to buy them at a reasonable cost.
Sent from my piece of s**t phone using Tapatalk2 (which can be equally unreliable when coupled with a junk phone)
I don't know what you're talking about .... :cool:
Yup with upgraded/magpul followers or clones..... great mags.
I picked some up this past summer or spring & installed Magpul followers in them. Everyone of them got hung up about an inch below the feed lips. There were a few others here who reported that they also experienced the same issue. It's possible that the issue has been resolved by now. They were mags that were likely produced during the panic & QC wasn't a high priority then.
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I picked some up this past summer or spring & installed Magpul followers in them. Everyone of them got hung up about an inch below the feed lips. There were a few others here who reported that they also experienced the same issue. It's possible that the issue has been resolved by now. They were mags that were likely produced during the panic & QC wasn't a high priority then.
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Magpul followers won't work in any of my Brownells mags if using the stock spring. The loop at the top where it mounts to the factory follower and of course the factory follower mounting area is not the same.
-Jax
Magpul followers won't work in any of my Brownells mags if using the stock spring. The loop at the top where it mounts to the factory follower and of course the factory follower mounting area is not the same.
-Jax
Really? When did you get them? All of mine attached to the spring as normal. They just dragged on the mag body.
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Really? When did you get them? All of mine attached to the spring as normal. They just dragged on the mag body.
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Ryno,
They're stamped 2010. Can't remember the month. I'll post up a pic when I get home. I've seen literally hundreds of these mags and they were all exactly the same as far as the follower and spring goes that have the same manufacturing dates as mentioned earlier. Mags have been great though. No problems whatsoever.
-Jax
My Brownells mags have run 100%.
Ryno,
Here is a pic of the subject we were speaking of earlier. The yellow follower is Magpul. Spring, tan follower is Brownells. Date on mag is 04-10.
As you can see the spring loop orientation (and the top most coil position) of each follower is quite different not allowing use of the Magpul.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/cd246131-c520-4e99-8bf1-8ab557265931_zps413bae89.jpg (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/jaxman7/media/cd246131-c520-4e99-8bf1-8ab557265931_zps413bae89.jpg.html)
-Jax
Ryno,
Here is a pic of the subject we were speaking of earlier. The yellow follower is Magpul. Spring, tan follower is Brownells. Date on mag is 04-10.
As you can see the spring loop orientation (and the top most coil position) of each follower is quite different not allowing use of the Magpul.
-Jax
They must've changed springs & followers at some point. The green follower in mine are very similar to my Colt followers. Mine is dated 03-13. I have both CS & SS springs and both are this configuration.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/16/hene7u3u.jpg
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Yeah and I am sure their mags are sourced from different manufacturers. Thanks for the pic.
-Jax
Brownells mags are on sale and I was tempted to get some. They offer 10 packs with Magpul followers but only with the CS springs.
I have no experience with the latest incarnations of GI followers but it seems like a lot of people still just switch them out.
My question is, are they really needed?
They offer both the standard green & Magpul followers in their mags now. Maybe they standardized their springs to make things easier.
I also looked for the thread where a couple of us discussed the issues we were having with the follower hanging up, but I couldn't find it. I think one of the other guys was markm but I don't want to speak on his behalf. Nothing a file couldn't fix. Those mags are my stash mags anyway. I'm sure that issue has been addressed by now.
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Brownells mags are on sale and I was tempted to get some. They offer 10 packs with Magpul followers but only with the CS springs.
I have no experience with the latest incarnations of GI followers but it seems like a lot of people still just switch them out.
My question is, are they really needed?
To keep this answer as simple as possible I would say the Magpul follower is a good insurance policy against the green.
-Jax
This may be the thread you are searching for Ryno:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?115330-How-are-the-Enhanced-Tan-Follower-USGI-30rd-magazines-working-in-the-field/page3
-Jax
This may be the thread you are searching for Ryno:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?115330-How-are-the-Enhanced-Tan-Follower-USGI-30rd-magazines-working-in-the-field/page3
-Jax
No, that's not it. The last post was from 3-15-13 & my mags were first produced that month. They were also on backorder for several weeks. I seem to recall we might have been off topic when we were discussing the issue.
Tapatalk search blows & it's even been harder to find stuff after the site update.
Thanks for looking for it though.
*ETA: Found it Jax. This was the thread I was talking about.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=134523
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No, that's not it. The last post was from 3-15-13 & my mags were first produced that month. They were also on backorder for several weeks. I seem to recall we might have been off topic when we were discussing the issue.
Tapatalk search blows & it's even been harder to find stuff after the site update.
Thanks for looking for it though.
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The last post in that thread I linked to was 03-15-2013 ;)
-Jax
montanadave
01-15-14, 21:56
I tried a Magpul yellow follower in a new Brownell's mag that shipped with the green. I could swap out the followers OK but, as noted above, the Magpul follower hung up an inch or so below the feed lips.
The last post in that thread I linked to was 03-15-2013 ;)
-Jax
I know, that's what I said.
I was trying to say that that thread was out before I even received my mags. Besides, I don't think I even posted in that particular thread. I'll try to find it sometime when I'm on a PC.
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They offer both the standard green & Magpul followers in their mags now. Maybe they standardized their springs to make things easier.
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I called and asked. They said all their mags sold with Magpul goodies are only available with CS spring and are assembled off site (whatever that means)
You still have the option to buy plain SS spring mags.
I found NHMTG's with Magpul followers much cheaper so I will go that route. If the cost of a GI mag with Magpul stuff gets to close to a PMAG I rather have the PMAG. The science presented in this thread and others makes me feel fine about polymers for storage. CS springs...not so much.
Great reminder LV.
I'm not a 'baller' like some here, but I did buy a dozen GI mags this week. I only have a few dozen right now, but slow and steady I'll keep buying them.
I do like to split 50/50 with GI and Polymer mags. My favorites are the Lancer AWM and Brownells GI with magpul upgrade kit.
Wish I could buy 100+ mags at a time like some of you folks. But I have to buy ammo too!
I called and asked. They said all their mags sold with Magpul goodies are only available with CS spring and are assembled off site (whatever that means)
You still have the option to buy plain SS spring mags.
That's good info.
Jax and I were specifically talking about the non Magpul mags. We found out that his mags had springs configured in such a manner that they wouldn't accept a Magpul follower. Mine were able to accept the Magpul followers however they hung up in the mag body as a few others experience. Mine were labeled as having SS springs. I also have some with CS springs & those also can take accept the Magpul followers. When I say configured, I mean how it's bent, not the type if metal.
montanadave, curious as to the date code on your mags.
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The Brownell's-Magpul follower-spring incompatibility does not make sense to me. Brownell's sells some of their 30rd mags with the Magpul follower already installed. It doesn't sound like anyone has had problems with these.
It sounds like people are having problems with installing Magpul followers (which hang up) in Brownell's mags which didn't come with the Magpul follower originally.
I guess the take away is that if you want to use Magpul followers with your Brownell's mags, buy them that way.
Joe Mamma
The Brownell's-Magpul follower-spring incompatibility does not make sense to me. Brownell's sells some of their 30rd mags with the Magpul follower already installed. It doesn't sound like anyone has had problems with these.
It sounds like people are having problems with installing Magpul followers (which hang up) in Brownell's mags which didn't come with the Magpul follower originally.
I guess the take away is that if you want to use Magpul followers with your Brownell's mags, buy them that way.
Joe Mamma
I agree but at the time I ordered mine, they were not available. Apparently they're also only available with a CS spring. Some people would prefer a SS spring then upgrade the follower.
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TurretGunner
01-16-14, 07:39
Magpull followers are a waste of money at this point. Pre-Green USGI mags had the "potential" to tilt or have issues, but were talking 10+years ago.
Since then all the major, quality mag manufactures either use Green or some other modern anti-tilt follower.
There is no reason whatsover to change them out, unless they are broken. The only people who will tell you such are either ignorant parrots who regurgitate the bs spewed by people who sell the crap, or the very people who sell the crap.
The only reason to run them, is OLD mags/Pre green upgrades, Broken followers that need replacing, or they were the cheaper than comparable USGI mags.
EDIT: As far as CS and SS go..... CS will last longer and SS will be more corrosion resitant. In the grand scheme of things, less than .001% of users will even shoot enough to wear a mag out. The difference in logentivity between the two will be very hard to tell. At that point, a $2 replacement spring or a $10 mag is really inconsequntial. Personaly I preffer the CS as long as you dont live on the beach or under the ocean like spongebob. Buy whatever is cheaper.
This is why I didn't buy Brownells SS mags
http://www.rrcfirearms.com/pd-nhmtg-5-56-30rd-ar15-mags.cfm
10 NHMTG mags with Magpul follower shipped for $105 which is slightly less than Brownells mags with the GI follower.
It sounds like people are having problems with installing Magpul followers (which hang up) in Brownell's mags which didn't come with the Magpul follower originally.
I guess the take away is that if you want to use Magpul followers with your Brownell's mags, buy them that way.
Joe Mamma
No shit about this. I had to sit down at the coffee table and whiddle away at a dozen magpul followers to get them to flow good in my Brownells mag bodies. Ridiculous. They run fine... but damn.
No shit about this. I had to sit down at the coffee table and whiddle away at a dozen magpul followers to get them to flow good in my Brownells mag bodies. Ridiculous. They run fine... but damn.
I thought it was you I had discussed that with in the past but I couldn't find the thread where we talked about it. There was a few of us that had that problem.
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TurretGunner
01-16-14, 10:57
And yet there is no point in putting magpul followers into a new production, quality USGI mag such as brownells.
You are wasting time and money. Complaining about something that is pointless in the first place just adds to the head scratching.
Its like complaining that a DPMS Bolt is having issues running in a SR-15.
Doc Safari
01-16-14, 11:01
And yet there is no point in putting magpul followers into a new production, quality USGI mag such as brownells.
You are wasting time and money. Complaining about something that is pointless in the first place just adds to the head scratching.
I agree.
If it ain't broke, don't fixt it.
If you want mags with MagPul followers, then order them, but don't mess with perfectly good mags that just happen to have a different follower.
This discussion got way off track.
We should be talking about stockpiling mags, where to get the best prices and availability, how long before the next panic, and related issues.
TurretGunner
01-16-14, 11:08
I agree.
If it ain't broke, don't fixt it.
If you want mags with MagPul followers, then order them, but don't mess with perfectly good mags that just happen to have a different follower.
This discussion got way off track.
We should be talking about stockpiling mags, where to get the best prices and availability, how long before the next panic, and related issues.
Right you are buddy.. Back on track...
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2271
Even if you dont own an AK, you are a fool not to buy a couple packs and stash them away (refinish, or shoot as is).... $9 for quality, E.Com Block AK47 Steel Mags..........not even a question.
montanadave
01-16-14, 11:29
montanadave, curious as to the date code on your mags.
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They're dated 03-13 and marked Montezuma, IA. They also have the CS spring.
I agree.
If it ain't broke, don't fixt it.
If you want mags with MagPul followers, then order them, but don't mess with perfectly good mags that just happen to have a different follower.
This discussion got way off track.
We should be talking about stockpiling mags, where to get the best prices and availability, how long before the next panic, and related issues.
Kinda where I'm at. They're stuffed in a box, stashed away, and probably won't see daylight until my nephew comes to clean out my shit when I'm dead.
Or I'm trading them for cat food in my "golden years." :D
Look for the CAGE code.
It should be stamped somewhere on the body. That should tell you which supplier made it. Once you get the CAGE code, just search it on Google.
At one time many moons ago they were manufactured by Labelle (now D&H, I think).
I have no idea if they still do or not.
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-58553.html
Ha, I can't believe I didn't even think to do that. I will definetly do that next time I'm at the store and report back.
And yet there is no point in putting magpul followers into a new production, quality USGI mag such as brownells.
You are wasting time and money. Complaining about something that is pointless in the first place just adds to the head scratching.
Its like complaining that a DPMS Bolt is having issues running in a SR-15.
Not sure where we got side tracked. Oh yeah, now I remember. ;)
I've used Brownells mags to good effect.
If I am not mistaken, they are DH/LaBelle, or at least, they were when I was buying the shit out of them.
Yup with upgraded/magpul followers or clones..... great mags.
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I wouldnt normally buy these, and I cannot recommend them since ive never used them. BUT.. I just paid 44.50 for 7 of the MSAR AR-15 magazines.
They are on clearance from Rockwell Arms and you can use the "20" coupon at checkout for 20% off. Shipping was free since it was over 49.00 before the coupon was applied.
I know nothing of them but at 7.00 a piece, they will be my weekend bashers. Just FYI.
Given how cheap NHMTG, Magpul, and D&H mags are right now, why even fool with unknown Bushmaster mags?
DH and Bushmaster mags are the same thing.
Brownells magazine are junk. Especially the ones made after Sandy Hook. Every one I have examined had blown out floor plate tabs and uneven sheet metal work. This has been document in various threads. These mags were the same ones that were available through Scheels last spring and they are garbage.
DH magazines are also junk. They are not OEM USGI mags. They may have made USGI in the past, but the ones sold online and at Cabelas are not USGI.
Anyone not buying OEM Okay/Colt mags right now is out of their mind.
There is nothing wrong with USGI mint pastel green followers either.
Scottryan, I guess we're not allowed to discuss mag quality or reliability issues in this particular thread ...that happens to be about buying mags. :confused:
We should be talking about stockpiling mags, where to get the best prices and availability, how long before the next panic, and related issues.
Traveshamockery
01-16-14, 18:50
DH and Bushmaster mags are the same thing.
Thanks for the info.
Scottryan, I guess we're not allowed to discuss mag quality or reliability issues in this particular thread ...that happens to be about buying mags. :confused:
Yes we are talking about it because the two are linked.
When somebody posts a line on DH mags for $10, and somebody posts a line on Okay mags for $10, we are going to have discussion about how these mags aren't equal.
scoutfsu99
01-16-14, 22:00
Brownells magazine are junk. Especially the ones made after Sandy Hook. Every one I have examined had blown out floor plate tabs and uneven sheet metal work. This has been document in various threads. These mags were the same ones that were available through Scheels last spring and they are garbage.
DH magazines are also junk. They are not OEM USGI mags. They may have made USGI in the past, but the ones sold online and at Cabelas are not USGI.
Anyone not buying OEM Okay/Colt mags right now is out of their mind.
There is nothing wrong with USGI mint pastel green followers either.
Brownells was supplying some of the new tan follower USGI mags too.
TurretGunner
01-17-14, 06:03
Yea I find this funny as brownell mags have and are one of the biggest GPC purchases for units deploying.
This was started on the basis of the political landscape, not materials and configuration.
Since we've once again gotten to the point of the false logic of "this entity buys big-time numbers of Product X, so Product X MUST be good..." :blink:
...take the magazine compare/contrast (especially the false positives....) to the gigantor USGI magazine thread that's been around for the last couple-three years.
Ask for/provide sourcing in the Where Can I Get It Thread.
Shouldn't you be at SHOT? This is the time of the year where the inmates run the asylum. Any mods chiming in on a perfectly good shit storm during SHOT should get infractitated!
(and this thread was a complete attack on Magpul... Helen Keller could see that.)
Nah, plenty to irritate me locally, no need to travel. I get no desserts for a month and had to write an essay.
brickboy240
01-17-14, 11:27
I bet people in the gun industry have done VERY well in recent years.
We all whine about Obama and the antis but I bet secretly they are loving the panic buying and mass purchases. Making hay while the sun shines.
Sort of how us in the oil biz hope everyone keeps buying 12mpg huge pickups and skips the Prius and Teslas.
LOL
-brickboy240
I bet people in the gun industry have done VERY well in recent years.
We all whine about Obama and the antis but I bet secretly they are loving the panic buying and mass purchases. Making hay while the sun shines.
Sort of how us in the oil biz hope everyone keeps buying 12mpg huge pickups and skips the Prius and Teslas.
LOL
-brickboy240
I think most gun dealers and manufactures would MUCH prefer to have a balanced budget, reforms on entitlement programs and a President that loves his country over panic buying that only lasts in the short term. In fact, I would give back the additional $1.5 Million we did in 2013 to make the above happen.
C4
Grand58742
01-17-14, 13:23
I think most gun dealers and manufactures would MUCH prefer to have a balanced budget, reforms on entitlement programs and a President that loves his country over panic buying that only last in the short term. In fact, I would give back the additional $1.5 Million we did in 2013 to make the above happen.
C4
So I can count on your financial support when I run for Pres? :D
So I can count on your financial support when I run for Pres? :D
Sure can!
C4
Grand58742
01-17-14, 13:52
Sure can!
C4
Suppose an advance is too much to ask for isn't it? :D
Back on the topic, I've found that every time I order something gun related I tend to toss in a magazine or two on top of the order. I haven't gone out of my way to make a magazine only order for a while now, but recently did from Brownells and Palmetto State just because the prices were right. But either way, just grabbing one or two extra when you place an internet order for ammo or parts will get you into some good numbers eventually even if you aren't willing to drop the cash on the Bravo Company 100 packs of mags.
brickboy240
01-17-14, 14:26
While that might be true, I notice many in gun stores complaining when gas hits 4 bucks a gallon....claiming they are being gouged and all.
Then Obama gets elected and they have no problems selling 2000 dollar Bushmasters!
Its ok if YOU are doing the "gouging" I guess.
Believe me...I wish things would just go back to normal.
-brickboy240
While that might be true, I notice many in gun stores complaining when gas hits 4 bucks a gallon....claiming they are being gouged and all.
Then Obama gets elected and they have no problems selling 2000 dollar Bushmasters!
Its ok if YOU are doing the "gouging" I guess.
Believe me...I wish things would just go back to normal.
-brickboy240
There really is no such thing as "gouging" UNLESS it is for a NEED (food, fuel, water, etc). Anything else is a "WANT" and up for grabs. The free market will dictate prices. If you think prices are too high, you simply don't spend your money and wait it out.
C4
brickboy240
01-17-14, 16:11
I know it is not really gouging....that is what many here were calling it.
I personally did not buy anything at all when the prices went way up. I knew what was going on and waited for the dust to settle.
Hopefully most here know damn well what kind of political environment we find ourselves in today and have made plans for shortages. Now is a great time for everyone to quietly stock up while shelves are full and mags and guns can be found.
-brickboy240
There really is no such thing as "gouging" UNLESS it is for a NEED (food, fuel, water, etc). Anything else is a "WANT" and up for grabs. The free market will dictate prices. If you think prices are too high, you simply don't spend your money and wait it out.
C4
gouger=CTD
TurretGunner
01-17-14, 19:18
There is no such thing as gouging... EVER.
You either belive in free markets or you don't. It doesn't matter what the product is or who has it.
If I have 100 bottles of water and you are about to starve to death... I can and will charge whatever I want..... because.
Any law or rule that impedes this does more harm than good, and goes against natural law.
Submariner
01-18-14, 14:31
So what about Glock magazines? And Glocks themselves?
RogerinTPA
01-18-14, 15:28
Depends on the type of polymer used. Certain polymers and composites have proven to be more durable than steels and aluminums, and much lighter...it's the reason why aviation has been using them more and more. As each newly manufactured aircraft rolls out over time, you will find less and less metal. As witness even in the firearm industry with polymer mags, stocks and rails, beginning with the M16FOW. As the search for a 'lighter and more durable' widget will always increase going forward over time, the use of natural materials will decrease proportionally. As for this discussion, I like and have a metric shit ton of both aluminum(D&H, NHMTG) and polymer (Pmags and Lancers). All work as advertised and have only used about 10% of the stash. I'm still rockin some Gen I Magpul Pmags that have seen numerous carbine courses and range play over the years, and many are still going strong. I've only had one double feed on a well worn, well used Gen1 Pmag that has seen many carbine courses and range play over the years. I have several ammo cans filled with Gen 1 Pmags for 6 years or so, and spot check them each year at the range or a course. I have many new unused mags, still in the wrapper, waiting for the day those older Pmags to take a dump. They simply won't die.
There really is no such thing as "gouging" UNLESS it is for a NEED (food, fuel, water, etc). Anything else is a "WANT" and up for grabs. The free market will dictate prices. If you think prices are too high, you simply don't spend your money and wait it out.
C4
That has always been a paradoxial belief to me.
Meaning 'gouging' only exists for certain very specific needs like food/water/gas, but not other things like guns and ammo. Personally I think its bullcrap. I need food and water to live, but I also might need guns and ammo to live if I'm a person who hunts for food for myself and my family (just an example).
Back on topic, I'm gonna pick up a few more Pmag20's at my lgs. I stopped by the other day and I saw they had a few on the rack.
Gouging or lack of preparation has been discussed numerous times. Let's focus on the original intent of this post.
Yep. I didn't bring it up initially.
I'm always looking to buy more mags, except I have a few guns I need to buy them for, not just the AR's.
Suppose an advance is too much to ask for isn't it? :D
Back on the topic, I've found that every time I order something gun related I tend to toss in a magazine or two on top of the order. I haven't gone out of my way to make a magazine only order for a while now, but recently did from Brownells and Palmetto State just because the prices were right. But either way, just grabbing one or two extra when you place an internet order for ammo or parts will get you into some good numbers eventually even if you aren't willing to drop the cash on the Bravo Company 100 packs of mags.
I try to pop into my gunstore either every paycheck or once a month and buy a mag and a box of .223.
Doing this you can quickly accumulate quite the stockpile at minimal financial outlay. Just don't eat out once or twice that payperiod or month and you've equaled the cost.
I try to pop into my gunstore either every paycheck or once a month and buy a mag and a box of .223.
Doing this you can quickly accumulate quite the stockpile at minimal financial outlay. Just don't eat out once or twice that payperiod or month and you've equaled the cost.
This has been my policy since things calmed down after Sandy Hook. If I'm at a store that has mags and ammo I leave with at least one of each. I figure since I've already used the gas to get there I shouldn't leave empty handed...
... Since the prices are way down. Here is a word of advice; for long term storage ( meaning those mags you are going to give your grandson down the road ) make sure they are METAL mags
Polymer mags are the ones you are using now for everyday use ; the metal mags are the ones that will last for decades
Yes I am talking about your beloved Pmags; don't expect them to be 'like new' years from now when you break them out of the wrapper
All plastic deteriorates over time - the USGI spec metal mags however can last a very long time as evidenced by the number of Vietnam era 20 round mags you still see in use
A word to the wise
Mr. Vickers,
Does your recommendation to preferentially acquire USGI-spec aluminum mags over Pmags remain the same, despite the incorporation of a more advanced polymer
formula in the sand Pmags?
Thanks,
7.62
sevenhelmet
10-07-15, 10:11
Well, this made me go back to the BCM website, which was totally re-done since my last order. Great job with the update, BCM!
As for metal vs. Poly, I'm divesting with my "reserve" mags so I have both. PMAGs are working fine for everyday use.
brickboy240
10-07-15, 10:13
Anyone know of a good place to order metal GI mags for the AR?
Thanks in advance for the info.
sevenhelmet
10-07-15, 10:22
BCM (http://bravocompanyusa.com). Currently they only have the grey ones, but if you don't like that color they're paintable. :)
Trufax.
I use Pmags and Lancers for training and plinking. I have still wrap GI mags for putting away. I'll stab someone over my precious 20 rounders.
I keep USPs for putting away. They use expensive steel magazines.
If the world comes to an end, expect me to use HK over Glock. Screw a Sig.
1911s and Brownings will always be relevant as long as there is oil and lube. Hell, I'm using my dad's 1911 mags to this day and they were likely made during WWII. They were damn sure used in Vietnam.
Same with KAC mags. They are so expensive. But the Brownells mags are aluminum and do a'ight. My Israeli and pmags are great but for betting the farm; KAC factory.
Parroting other, smarter people's words but that's how I feel about it.
Then again I have an AUG mag that is 33 years old and still does okay. Fairly indistinguishable. But I have a NATO stock anyways because I am paranoid.
Just my opinion.
yea... screw you guys and your cheap 30 round mags... while everyone stock piles Im stuck in his crap hole with my bastardized 15round mags and no legal ability to stock pile 30's. Screw you guys! There! I said it! :(
Outlander Systems
10-07-15, 11:48
Dude, get your ass down here to God's country.
yea... screw you guys and your cheap 30 round mags... while everyone stock piles Im stuck in his crap hole with my bastardized 15round mags and no legal ability to stock pile 30's. Screw you guys! There! I said it! :(
yea... screw you guys and your cheap 30 round mags... while everyone stock piles Im stuck in his crap hole with my bastardized 15round mags and no legal ability to stock pile 30's. Screw you guys! There! I said it! :(
You're in NJ right? If you're close enough to PA or DE rent a storage unit and get a P.O. Box.
Anyone know of a good place to order metal GI mags for the AR?
Thanks in advance for the info.
https://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_magazine_magpul_follower/nhmtg
https://www.44mag.com/product/case-nhmtg-ar15-magazines/nhmtg
https://www.44mag.com/product/1294/nhmtg
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