View Full Version : RMR on pistols?
Thinking about sending a Glock 19 off to ATEI to get work done it would also be carried on my CCW. I have a training course coming up in March I would use it in. is it worth it or no?
For me no. I had about 1200 into my upper half with the RMR included and match grade threaded barrel. Nice set up. At the end of the day though, I did not really like it. I will say I probably did not give it enough of a chance. I found it was way to easy to loose the dot at night, which is when I would need it the most. I also hoped it would help me get tighter groups at longer range due to the ease of aiming, but found that I shot the same groups. Plus finding holsters and stuff is a pain.
With the amount I had invested in mine, I was left pretty unsatisfied.
I have $835 into mine and I am still liking it. My slide was milled for the Unity Tactical Atom mount with an RMR07 by L&M Precision. I think he sells complete Glock 19's with RMR's in the $1200 range. Check his website.
I have only 400-500 rounds through mine. I don't have any issue finding the dot on presentation or followup shots and my speed and accuracy at 25y is greatly improved. Next one I do will get the RMR06.
There is a huge thread on LF. Lots of good info there from shooters with a greater degree of experience than me.
KentuckyWindage
01-09-14, 15:58
Yes It's worth it I love mine! My early Gen3 two pin 19 all work done by MOD1
http://minus.com/jbshs7zUsXvI15.jpg
Yeah thanks for the input I am def stuck in the middle and this alone has swayed me against it. I want to try one out but still have yet to meet anyone with it done.
I can make arrangements for anyone in NorCal (707) to try mine out.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4481604/forum-pics/stipple-rmr.jpg
That would be cool I live in Fresno though, thanks for the offer though if I possibly make it up that way I may take you up on it!
NCPatrolAR
01-09-14, 16:09
It's always best to try before you buy. While I'm sure RDS on pistols is the future I don't think we have the ideal setups yet.
I have a one source tactical / tsd Glock 19 with RMR. I love it. However there is a learning curve. Took me about 4 months of range and dry fire to equal what I had with irons. Another 2 months to see improvement. I think it's worth it.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
There has been a little concern with the RMR and wet weather conditions. You can read of one such case by going here...
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096
I haven't any experience with the RMR so please don't think I'm knocking it. Just thought to share the info. You can judge on your own if it's service ready.
PatrioticDisorder
01-09-14, 16:47
I have one on an M&P CORE with an M&P CORE perhaps I haven't given it enough of a chance but I'm a fan of iron sights on pistols. Just my 2 cents, YMMV.
NCPatrolAR
01-09-14, 16:47
There has been a little concern with the RMR and wet weather conditions. You can read of one such case by going here...
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096
I haven't any experience with the RMR so please don't think I'm knocking it. Just thought to share the info. You can judge on your own if it's service ready.
I've had similar issues with wet weather and a dual-illum. An additional issue I had with mine was that, in cold wet weather, the lens would fog up when shooting from a high compressed ready
I'm very happy with my G19 with atom mount and rm02.
I have 6 guns with RMRs on them and thousands of rounds in all condition's
I run the adjustable 06/07 models while early models had issues my current ones have been good,
I have had no issues losing the dot in low to no light, with and without white light, and under NVG use.
while not perfect they are close
as for weather issues I have no problem in the wet or snow with mine anymore than I do with any other RDS sight...
its takes practice and reps like anything else...
Iam sold on them have been running them off and on since early 2000 when it was tasco optima 2000, then later as doctor optics, and now RMRs and T-1s
ATEI is my go too, Unity atom mount I have shot have been great as well... and my ALG 6 second mount
NCPatrolAR
01-09-14, 17:40
The only wash-out issue with RMRs that I know of is with the dual-illum models. I've yet to experience it with any of the battery powered ones
Damn it, now I don't know what to do.
Voodoo_Man
01-09-14, 18:23
I have shot a few guns with RMR's.
I like them, but I keep telling myself that nothing will change the fact that the gun has iron sights.
Maybe I have to man-up and get one.
HardToHandle
01-09-14, 19:45
For me no. I had about 1200 into my upper half with the RMR included and match grade threaded barrel. Nice set up. At the end of the day though, I did not really like it. I will say I probably did not give it enough of a chance. I found it was way to easy to loose the dot at night, which is when I would need it the most. I also hoped it would help me get tighter groups at longer range due to the ease of aiming, but found that I shot the same groups.
With the amount I had invested in mine, I was left pretty unsatisfied.
Almost exactly my experience. 2000 dry fires and 500 rounds down range the investment and minuses weren't enough. Ymmv.
should have done more live fire to be honest and at what distance, and size groups and what size dot
It's always best to try before you buy. While I'm sure RDS on pistols is the future I don't think we have the ideal setups yet.
I think this looks interesting:
http://www.recoilweb.com/the-6-second-optic-mount-37339.html
NCPatrolAR
01-10-14, 05:54
I think this looks interesting:
http://www.recoilweb.com/the-6-second-optic-mount-37339.html
I'll likely pick one of those up but it looks like BUIS are out of the question due to the height of the optic. Also the mount doesn't appear to be quick detachable either
that is my glock 34 in the pictures with my raven custom holster....
it is not qd, but I have been in talks with Bill and amy, about a few changes to it.
then again its intended roll and what people want it to be are two different things...
Thinking about sending a Glock 19 off to ATEI to get work done it would also be carried on my CCW. I have a training course coming up in March I would use it in. is it worth it or no?
I have a Glock 19 with an RMR, and while I do think it is worth it, you may want to reconsider getting it done right before a class (depending on current ability and training level). There is a bit of a learning curve with these, and until you get out in front of that, it may impede your ability to benefit from the training. You do not want to be learning your optic when you are trying to learn other techniques.
I will recommend ATEi for the work. They have done two pistols for me and the work is top notch.
that is my glock 34 in the pictures with my raven custom holster....
it is not qd, but I have been in talks with Bill and amy, about a few changes to it.
then again its intended roll and what people want it to be are two different things...
I've been really interested in that system since seeing it last year.
How does that Raven holster work? Cross draw OWB?
I've been really interested in that system since seeing it last year.
How does that Raven holster work? Cross draw OWB?
The Black one is set up as a strong side and adjustable with a teclok
the other in gray is set up as a driving rig in cross draw fashion at request of some friends doing work that requires it (raven normally does not do crossdraw)
with the teclok as well, it can be set up strong side too
Voodoo_Man
01-10-14, 15:13
that is my glock 34 in the pictures with my raven custom holster....
it is not qd, but I have been in talks with Bill and amy, about a few changes to it.
then again its intended roll and what people want it to be are two different things...
That is a good looking setup. For a home-defense Glock, it would be good to go.
That is a good looking setup. For a home-defense Glock, it would be good to go.
I agree. I added an x300 ultra but, might go to the x400 for giggles
that said I carried it and taught with it
Voodoo_Man
01-10-14, 17:26
I agree. I added an x300 ultra but, might go to the x400 for giggles
that said I carried it and taught with it
The right holster can do wonders.
I wonder just how much abuse it can take.
FlyingHunter
01-10-14, 18:13
It's always best to try before you buy. While I'm sure RDS on pistols is the future I don't think we have the ideal setups yet.
Curious. What do think future RMR setups will incorporate, more specifically, how will differ from current set ups?
The Black one is set up as a strong side and adjustable with a teclok
the other in gray is set up as a driving rig in cross draw fashion at request of some friends doing work that requires it (raven normally does not do crossdraw)
with the teclok as well, it can be set up strong side too
Thanks.
Now I'm curious if this can be AIWB carried. Hmm, this with an APL in a dedicated AIWB rig....
NCPatrolAR
01-10-14, 18:27
Curious. What do think future RMR setups will incorporate, more specifically, how will differ from current set ups?
I think it will become something like the 6 Second mount with some type of BUIS installed. It seems that the movement of the slide is what's killing the optic so it would make sense to see a move to eliminating movement of the optic. The addition of the BUIS is a requirement of certain people (myself included) so this would need to be accomplished by either super tall irons on the slide or something on the optic mounting platform
It's always best to try before you buy. While I'm sure RDS on pistols is the future I don't think we have the ideal setups yet.
Yep! I tried an RMR08. I love the sight on a shotgun or rifle but I found myself hunting for the dot on a pistol. I kept instinctively searching for the front sight.
NCPatrolAR
01-10-14, 20:13
Yep! I tried an RMR08. I love the sight on a shotgun or rifle but I found myself hunting for the dot on a pistol. I kept instinctively searching for the front sight.
Try flattening out your presentation
Try flattening out your presentation
Bingo
The right holster can do wonders.
I wonder just how much abuse it can take.
a lot trust me
SpeedRacer
01-10-14, 21:50
A sloppy presentation doesn't work well with irons, either. It's just that the dot seems to hold you more accountable as it really throws your errors in your face, both during the draw and while shooting. For that reason a lot of guys I know with time on pistol dots say it has immensely helped their iron sight shooting as well. Guys with a solid presentation and good trigger control and follow-through also seem to transition to red dots easier as well. Shooting with the dot isn't any harder, it's just not as forgiving. And in a lot of ways that's certainly not a bad thing.
A sloppy presentation doesn't work well with irons, either. It's just that the dot seems to hold you more accountable as it really throws your errors in your face, both during the draw and while shooting.
So.... the upside of adding $400+ worth of optics to your $800 handgun is?....
I think the MRDS will continue to evolve on the slide, maybe in 5 or so years we will see M&P's and Glocks (ok maybe 20 for Glock) with a slight redesign to accommodate a lower mounted MRDS . I really like the idea of the rear buis being integrated into the MRDS itself that some companies have done. If they can make them with the bottom of the view port nearly flush with the top of the slide then you can make the view port taller which will really help in finding the dot.
Frame mounted red dots have been around a long time on race guns so I don't really see any major breakthroughs there.
A sloppy presentation doesn't work well with irons, either. It's just that the dot seems to hold you more accountable as it really throws your errors in your face, both during the draw and while shooting. For that reason a lot of guys I know with time on pistol dots say it has immensely helped their iron sight shooting as well. Guys with a solid presentation and good trigger control and follow-through also seem to transition to red dots easier as well. Shooting with the dot isn't any harder, it's just not as forgiving. And in a lot of ways that's certainly not a bad thing.
I agree with this. If anything, shooting a RDS on a pistol is good training for irons (instead of the other way around).
Basically, an RDS is less forgiving than irons (you'll still usually hit with not perfectly aligned irons, but you won't even see the red dot at those angles), is less durable, has batteries, and can fog up. It also costs more money. But RDSs do help a lot in low light and at longer ranges (>20 yds).
SpeedRacer
01-11-14, 23:36
So.... the upside of adding $400+ worth of optics to your $800 handgun is?....
The benefit is that when you are dialed in with a red dot, you're faster and more accurate, especially at longer ranges. Basically the same reasons probably 99% of M4C members have an optic on their primary carbine. And the same reasons that all of the Open Class competition pistol shooters have been using dots since the first one existed that was small enough to cobble onto a handgun.
The difference here is that it's only relatively recent that the technology became small and rugged enough to be viable for carry/defensive pistol use, so it's still a pretty new concept that will take getting used to. I think as the technology improves it will be a lot easier to reap the rewards, until then some of us just like to be ahead of the curve. :D
Another perspective that hasn't been addressed in the thread so far: eyesight issues. I have lost the ability to focus clearly on my front sight with my prescription glasses on, which I wear all the time. Without glasses I can see the front sight perfectly but little in the distance. I have progressed from "bullseye" irons, to a fiber optic front, to a narrow fiber optic front and a wide U-notch rear. This works for closer shooting as I can see the blurry fiber optic front sight and enough daylight around it to hit pretty accurately at close range. I decided to try an RMR02 on an M&P. It has opened up shooting again for me and it is worth the price to do so. However, my RMR has not been trouble-free. Within the first 250 rounds it went out sporadically during strings of fire. Trijicon's customer support is excellent, the caveat being the sight is gone for several weeks. I'm hoping that the repair will hold as many people have had excellent success with them.
Coal Dragger
01-12-14, 16:19
I don't have one on a carry gun/duty gun but I have mounted an RMR on my Freedom Arms M83 .454 Casull. I like it a lot for what I intend to use it for. As other users have noted the RMR or other small reflex sights are not as forgiving as the iron sights for picking them up quickly with a less than perfect presentation. I had to practice quite a bit to get consistent with picking up the dot as I bring the revolver up and forward to the target from a holster or low ready etc. This is also a perishable skill like many others, and I have to practice a bit every now and again to ensure I am still able to do it especially in low light. I am still by no means "fast" with this setup, but I haven't devoted a lot of practice to this skill set either.
My experience with shooting the setup have been very positive, the 3.25 MOA dot is big enough to pick up quick but not so big that precise shooting is hindered. I have had no issues with recoil shifting the zero yet, although time will tell since big bore revolvers have a nasty habit of trashing out optics that are not up to the task. I did have some issues getting a good zero with some heavy slower moving bullets, the gun was shooting really high and I couldn't get enough elevation adjustment to bring the POI down to POA. Inexplicably taking the optic off, and remounting it seems to have solved this issue. Plus I may have been moving the elevation screw the wrong direction, even if it is a notion I refuse to entertain…. In any event I can at least attest to the durability of the little sight so far living on top of a violently recoiling handgun. The loads I have put through it range from light .45ACP target loads with the spare .45ACP cylinder, to full bore 60,000PSI .454 Casull loads. The RMR hasn't given up yet, but my round count is not high.
Practical accuracy on high contrast bullseye targets seems to be about the same as iron sights, but the revolver came equipped with superb iron sights. Where the dot really excels is in shooting low contrast targets such as game animals, rocks, steel plates with the paint scoured off, or any other target that can be a pain in the butt to align with a crisp front sight when you can't really make the target out from the back ground.
I'll likely pick one of those up but it looks like BUIS are out of the question due to the height of the optic. Also the mount doesn't appear to be quick detachable either
I was going to comment on this, but you summed up my thoughts in a later post:
I think it will become something like the 6 Second mount with some type of BUIS installed. It seems that the movement of the slide is what's killing the optic so it would make sense to see a move to eliminating movement of the optic. The addition of the BUIS is a requirement of certain people (myself included) so this would need to be accomplished by either super tall irons on the slide or something on the optic mounting platform
As an addtion to what you said in that post, not having the RDS mounted on the slide will probably make it easier to track the dot during shooting, leading to quicker follow-up shots. Maybe someone who has used one can verify?
Hopefully they have the ALG mount displayed at SHOT, so I can handle it and see it for myself.
My impression is that using the old school Aimpoint on a race gun is easier to use than the RMR type sight. I love the RMR but it just doesn't seem to work well for me. I am damn fine pistol shot but the RMR makes me feel like a new shooter.
I had a thought on this. What about essentially replacing the front sight with an RMR? Basically, mount the RMR all the way forward on the slide and mill the slide as low a possible. My personal belief is the current practice of mounting the RDS to the rear has me trying to aim with the rear sights (counter intuitive). Move the RDS forward and you are now looking at the right place.
I just off my slide and RMR to ATEi. I've only put a couple of rounds down range with a slide mounted red dot, but I really like the concept. I'm still much quicker with irons, but conceptually I really like the idea. At the very least this will be an expensive training aid, good presentation to find the dot, and good grip and trigger control to keep the dot on target.
My impression is that using the old school Aimpoint on a race gun is easier to use than the RMR type sight. I love the RMR but it just doesn't seem to work well for me. I am damn fine pistol shot but the RMR makes me feel like a new shooter.
I had a thought on this. What about essentially replacing the front sight with an RMR? Basically, mount the RMR all the way forward on the slide and mill the slide as low a possible. My personal belief is the current practice of mounting the RDS to the rear has me trying to aim with the rear sights (counter intuitive). Move the RDS forward and you are now looking at the right place.
Except you're not supposed to be focusing on the dot at all and putting the dot further away just makes it that much harder to acquire.
I had a thought on this. What about essentially replacing the front sight with an RMR? Basically, mount the RMR all the way forward on the slide and mill the slide as low a possible. My personal belief is the current practice of mounting the RDS to the rear has me trying to aim with the rear sights (counter intuitive). Move the RDS forward and you are now looking at the right place.
There is one G26 running around out there with such a configuration. The guy said that he needed to have the optic as far forward as possible for his eyes to be able to see the dot properly. I didn't quite understand that, but he was happy with the result.
It was a bit more work but it can be done.
As an addtion to what you said in that post, not having the RDS mounted on the slide will probably make it easier to track the dot during shooting, leading to quicker follow-up shots. Maybe someone who has used one can verify?
I don't think it will make one lick of difference. The gun will still recoil and will still come to rest under recoil in battery. Your ability to reacquire the dot will be the same with both setups.
For the guys who have been running a RDS for a WHILE... while also shooting irons.
Have you timed yourself from the holster to first hit with the RDS? How fast is it? Slower? How much?
Have you had issues with zero, and durability? How long until the optic dies from abuse? Do you trust your dot with your life?
With a slide mounted optic, what is your change in split-time? Shot-to-shot. Do you lose and re-acquire the dot in recoil?
I completely understand the advantages in precision. I run a dot on my AR and I'm MUCH faster and more accurate, but the dot does not move much on your AR. It doesn't reciprocate. It doesn't take the abuse of slide-cycle.
The guys shooting optics in USPSA run almost exclusively frame-mounted optics for these reasons... The optic is more still, takes less abuse, and is faster to re-acquire... But I wouldn't want to try to conceal a frame-mounted optic gun!
Thanks!
JeffWard
To those running a Suppressed Pistol do you prefer the RDS ?
About to pull the trigger on a 9mm can, looking to set up a pistol to keep at home, strongly considering adding a rds
I sent my 19 to Doug almost a year ago. He does phenomenal work. I use it as my daily carry and love it.
I think the ATOM mount is interesting but prefer my rear sights behind the RDS. I agree with what has already been said that you still draw lining up your irons and then there is a dot. I went with night sights as I have a buddy that did not go that route and I found it very difficult at night to find the dot without reference of the irons.
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/laddmc/IMG_7213_zps06a1188d.jpg (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/laddmc/media/IMG_7213_zps06a1188d.jpg.html)
I'd definitely try before you buy. Everything was peachy for my RMR equipped G19 until I ran a course with medium-heavy rain. Fortunately I had another G19 w/o a RMR and ran that for the rest of the day. I could still use the window for close range shooting, but anything precise or out of 10 yards I was rolling dice. Don't remember the link, but Hilton Yam did a review on one that was spot on with my experience. Like most things, there's always a trade off YMMV.
I think one must also consider the role in which the MRDS equipped handgun will be deployed. When carried concealed the MRDS will be shielded from the rain until its needed. And most defensive scenarios are short engagements. It might not be the best idea for an officer out on patrol in a drop leg where rain is likely to collect on the glass (no doubt future holster development may address that concern).
Also consider the forecast when choosing what to carry that day.
Hopefully they are testing hydrophobic coatings for the glass.
It's helpful to put rainX on both sides of the glass. I had an all day class in the rain and this was very helpful.
I installed a Weigant Combat rail on my 4" S&W 686 and mounted a RMR. A little heavy but used for home defense. The thing is an absolute tack driver. Very fun to shoot!!
I have a RMR on a XD it's alright but if I had it to over I wouldn't do it. For me 0-15 yds. it's slower and not a lot of difference in auccuracy. 25 yds. and out it start to come into it's own. But most uses will be 25 yds. and in, so for me it wasn't worth it.
i'm in what a consider the middle of a transition. started using the RMR at christmas. a month and change and 3000 rounds later i think i'm doing a little better. it was a distraction at first, and my eyes kept wanting to go back to the FS. over time, i started to see the dot first. after the first 1000 rounds, i was about ready to take it off, but i'm glad i didn't. i have been CCWing with it as well with no issues. two comments: it is WAY better at night. and it has helped me quite a bit with diagnosing trigger issues on my part because i can SEE the dot move right before the gun goes off where i couldn't see the FS moving.
my advice isn't worth much yet, but so far i'd say if you tried it and didn't like it, keep trying.
What RMR is everyone running on thier handgun?
LED
Adj LED or
Dual Illuminated?
What would be the pros and cons of each?
LED - RM02. The RMo2 has an auto-adjust based on the light conditions. I just want to be able to pick up the gun and have it working with no buttons or on off switches.
I am currently using an adjustable RMR07 (6.5moa) but will be trying an RMR06 (3.5moa). I haven't used any other version but I chose the adjustable one based on SME recommendation in various threads on the subject.
Back on the RMR and took the advice here using RainX, great advice. Running a RMR07 on a G19 and will probably get another. Absolute tack driver - needs to shake out some stuff on my end before going EDC.
St.Michael
08-25-14, 08:28
There are people using the RMR for EDC? I have no solid input on using one of these, but it really seems like a lot of money for something that doesn't need to be fixed.
Every Day Carry
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
There are people using the RMR for EDC? I have no solid input on using one of these, but it really seems like a lot of money for something that doesn't need to be fixed.
Do you have a red dot on your rifle? If so, same level of tactical advantage once you get used to the dot.
oh, well in that case, yes, the RMR has been on my EDC for several months
Another 650rds this past weekend with 147gr. No issues. Still roughly .15 ish slower on the draw, but progressing well - the trade off is balanced at distance or on multiple targets as this kit does exceptionally well for me. Faster / more accurate than irons. YMMV.
Just picked up a brand new RM06 for $400...well $330 and a holster im making for the guy.
Its going on my E.D.C. G19.
HardToHandle
08-25-14, 20:18
There are people using the RMR for EDC? I have no solid input on using one of these, but it really seems like a lot of money for something that doesn't need to be fixed.
If you have to ask the value, you can't afford it....
Lots of advantages, some trade offs. The investment in both initial cost and also in both training/ ammo is another.
St.Michael
08-25-14, 20:22
If you have to ask the value, you can't afford it....
Lots of advantages, some trade offs. The investment in both initial cost and also in both training/ ammo is another.
That wasnt a question on value for money. It was an opinionated observation on an item thats not required to make something functional.
Been running a RMR milled into the slide of my Glock 17 for about 8 months. The only issue I have ran into that can't be fixed by training was after being in an A/C car for an extended period of time, then going to the range. The RMR fogged and completely obscured the window. A quick swipe of the lens cleared it, but again, something that you don't want happening when you are counting on the weapon from the draw.
I am faster with my Glock 19s w/ Dawson adjustables or 1911 from the holster, but once the gun is on target the RMR is a huge advantage accuracy wise. More training time and I think the disparity in draw times will be reduced if not eliminated.
Rick
I really wanted to RMR my M&P but i would rather shoot one to see how i feel about it before i dish out the cash and not like it. I guess ill have to dish the money out and sent it off to MOD1
Voodoo_Man
08-25-14, 22:42
Ive got a holstet that a buddy made that he will be producing for rmr'd glocks.
Pix tomorrow....maybe
St.Michael
08-25-14, 22:47
Been running a RMR milled into the slide of my Glock 17 for about 8 months. The only issue I have ran into that can't be fixed by training was after being in an A/C car for an extended period of time, then going to the range. The RMR fogged and completely obscured the window. A quick swipe of the lens cleared it, but again, something that you don't want happening when you are counting on the weapon from the draw.
I am faster with my Glock 19s w/ Dawson adjustables or 1911 from the holster, but once the gun is on target the RMR is a huge advantage accuracy wise. More training time and I think the disparity in draw times will be reduced if not eliminated.
Rick
Thanks for that info on the fog. That alone would be a huge problem for edc. Have you or anyone else tried this with harsher climates? Rain? Snow?
HardToHandle
08-26-14, 01:26
Rain? Snow?
Yes - I have used in rain and cold conditions. The RMR will fog in certain circumstances, such as a pair of glasses. Use of a anti fog chemical reduces but does not prevent the issue. However the red dot is still visible, just the view of the target through the RMR glass is obscured. In other words, a 90 percent of a man sized target is visible at 15 yards. It is a point shooting drill response until the fog clears or you wipe it. The gun still works, you just have a compromised sight picture.
Once again - trade offs with an RMR.
-Irons dont fog.
-Irons dont have batteries
-Irons are almost impossible to break
-Irons produce a smaller overall package.
-Irons are just as accurate as a red dot if you know how to use them. You know, go out and um...train, or compete or take classes or make narcissistic youtube videos.
-Irons do not change the reciprocating mass of the slide resulting in questionable reliability. (my T1 setup did not work, granted it is a sample size of one so it may be an isolated incident).
-Iron sights do not rely on a perfect index in order to FIND the sights. Compromised shooting positions are far more difficult to shoot from in times where you are not perfectly presenting the pistol. Tactical priority and etiquette requires at least four forward rolls and a throat punch prior to deployment of the red dot equipped death dealing delivery system. Real men also run threaded barrels but no can's because they blew their wad on velcro equipped hats and crossfit gym memberships.
-Iron sights are easier to clear of debris (or dirt, or lint or skin cells or any other manner of SHIT your EDC gets caked in if you actually carry the damned thing) after doing said combat rolls in the rain because if it aint raining, we aint training or some such crap that tactiyuppies love to yell when the sky opens up and they pop a half chub at the thought of getting dirty "like real men".
-Red dots have two focal planes versus three making it EASIER to shoot well at distances exceeding 25 yards. For all the ninja's out there, this is ideal for sniping. If you think slide mounted red dots are "faster" than irons, you dont understand proper iron sight picture fundamentals.
-Red dots are easier to see with aging eyes.
-Red dots offer a larger racking surface than irons so you can rack the optic off of your coffee table to impress your friends.
-Red dots are new and hot and different than old school irons. Once a Red Dot is milled into your slide, your crye precision crotch size increases tenfold.
-Red dots are endorsed and loved by Gabe Suarez. Combat bro, combat.
-Red dots match slide serrations, cocking serrations, press check gripper surfaces, contact distance abrasion devices and throat abrading ninja star cuts better than irons.
If you guys want to run red dots, talk about red dots and champion red dots, by all means rock on but please, lets stop pretending that adding a red dot to a pistol is in the same league as adding a red dot to a rifle. They are worlds apart, literally, worlds apart.
For all of the guys out there championing red dots, please, take some video of your 25 yard, six second par time bill drills, not on steel but on IDPA or USPSA targets and post the results here. Run it with irons, run it with a red dot and lets see how much of a difference there really is and if it can be quantified absolutely as "better". I think there's a whole hell of a lot of "feeling" going on here instead of actual, quality information.
Yes - I have used in rain and cold conditions. The RMR will fog in certain circumstances, such as a pair of glasses. Use of a anti fog chemical reduces but does not prevent the issue. However the red dot is still visible, just the view of the target through the RMR glass is obscured. In other words, a 90 percent of a man sized target is visible at 15 yards. It is a point shooting drill response until the fog clears or you wipe it. The gun still works, you just have a compromised sight picture.
Once again - trade offs with an RMR.
This is why when you get an RMR you will want to have suppressor height sights put on it.
This is why when you get an RMR you will want to have suppressor height sights put on it.
How do you see the sights through the glass when the GLASS is FOGGED...
In Florida, the fogging is so bad that the glass is COMPLETELY obscured...
If you think you're going to see through a RDS with mud or fog occluding the lens you need an eye doctor or psychologist...
St.Michael
08-26-14, 10:51
Too many problems that can occur for a carry pistol. Maybe if you had a second pistol with rmr that you only carried certain times. The pros don't seem to out weigh the cons
How do you see the sights through the glass when the GLASS is FOGGED...
In Florida, the fogging is so bad that the glass is COMPLETELY obscured...
I'm not sure what you are talking about. I've been running my G34 in the "great outdoors" here in central Missouri and it is every bit as hot and humid as anything in Florida and no fogging.
Are you going in/out of AC? I can see that as a problem.
Is your definition of "running" 5 mins? Kinda like your definition of a torture test being 75 rounds?
Matt, I know you are trying hard to be a douche toward me, so, thanks for that.
I'm talking about using it outside in mid-August heat and humidity for 10 hour training sessions. I do not go in/out of AC during that time though.
Matt, I know you are trying hard to be a douche toward me, so, thanks for that.
I'm talking about using it outside in mid-August heat and humidity for 10 hour training sessions. I do not go in/out of AC during that time though.
So the square range is somehow directly correlated to life and EDC parameters? Somehow, i find that...fairly accurate in regard to your "tactical mindset"...
I have an RMR on a Glock 23 and I have carried it in Florida without fogging issues. For me, the RDS requires a big adjustment to acquire the dot for close range shooting and I decided that was not satisfactory for me with my carry gun. I have heard others say the same.
I don't carry that Glock anymore. My carry guns are fitted with Hackathorn sights.
And, flip side, the RMR has been fantastic for me and has helped me improve accuracy, etc. Mine is on my customized Glock 34.
To each his own.
How do you see the sights through the glass when the GLASS is FOGGED...
In Florida, the fogging is so bad that the glass is COMPLETELY obscured...
You can still easily use the RDS when it is fogged, but no you will not see the sights. I know because I owned one for a while, and yes, they do fog. I no longer own one though. I just could not see that much of an advantage. I honestly don't know if they are any faster then irons, that is if you know how to use different techniques with irons. I hoped that an RMR would help with accuracy at longer ranges (50-100 yrds) but found that it did not really help with that at all for me. In the end, I do think with lots of practice it could be faster and more accurate, but I did not really have the time to invest in relearning something that already worked for me.
Then at the end of the day, I thought about what a pistol is for me. It is either a self defense gun for a reactive situation, in which case with the speed and distances involved, I am not sure what kind of sighting device would really matter. It is also a backup gun when running a rifle, which once again, the sighting device does not matter as much as it does with a rifle.
But if you have the time and money to invest in not only the purchase, but mastering using the system, then rock on.
And, flip side, the RMR has been fantastic for me and has helped me improve accuracy, etc. Mine is on my customized Glock 34.
To each his own.
How? I sense more "feelings" here. Should we hug?
Matt, I know you are trying hard to be a douche toward me, so, thanks for that.
I'm talking about using it outside in mid-August heat and humidity for 10 hour training sessions. I do not go in/out of AC during that time though.
It's not exactly hard as you try to pass your "experiences" as legit information...especially when you are very deceptive and full of crap constantly. You tell people you have no issues with fog, but have never put your firearm in any situation where that may be an issue, yet you post nonsense.
You can still easily use the RDS when it is fogged, but no you will not see the sights.
How do you use it if you cannot see through it?
-Irons dont fog.
-Irons dont have batteries
-Irons are almost impossible to break
-Irons produce a smaller overall package.
-Irons are just as accurate as a red dot if you know how to use them. You know, go out and um...train, or compete or take classes or make narcissistic youtube videos.
-Irons do not change the reciprocating mass of the slide resulting in questionable reliability. (my T1 setup did not work, granted it is a sample size of one so it may be an isolated incident).
-Iron sights do not rely on a perfect index in order to FIND the sights. Compromised shooting positions are far more difficult to shoot from in times where you are not perfectly presenting the pistol. Tactical priority and etiquette requires at least four forward rolls and a throat punch prior to deployment of the red dot equipped death dealing delivery system. Real men also run threaded barrels but no can's because they blew their wad on velcro equipped hats and crossfit gym memberships.
-Iron sights are easier to clear of debris (or dirt, or lint or skin cells or any other manner of SHIT your EDC gets caked in if you actually carry the damned thing) after doing said combat rolls in the rain because if it aint raining, we aint training or some such crap that tactiyuppies love to yell when the sky opens up and they pop a half chub at the thought of getting dirty "like real men".
-Red dots have two focal planes versus three making it EASIER to shoot well at distances exceeding 25 yards. For all the ninja's out there, this is ideal for sniping. If you think slide mounted red dots are "faster" than irons, you dont understand proper iron sight picture fundamentals.
-Red dots are easier to see with aging eyes.
-Red dots offer a larger racking surface than irons so you can rack the optic off of your coffee table to impress your friends.
-Red dots are new and hot and different than old school irons. Once a Red Dot is milled into your slide, your crye precision crotch size increases tenfold.
-Red dots are endorsed and loved by Gabe Suarez. Combat bro, combat.
-Red dots match slide serrations, cocking serrations, press check gripper surfaces, contact distance abrasion devices and throat abrading ninja star cuts better than irons.
If you guys want to run red dots, talk about red dots and champion red dots, by all means rock on but please, lets stop pretending that adding a red dot to a pistol is in the same league as adding a red dot to a rifle. They are worlds apart, literally, worlds apart.
For all of the guys out there championing red dots, please, take some video of your 25 yard, six second par time bill drills, not on steel but on IDPA or USPSA targets and post the results here. Run it with irons, run it with a red dot and lets see how much of a difference there really is and if it can be quantified absolutely as "better". I think there's a whole hell of a lot of "feeling" going on here instead of actual, quality information.
seems like a lot more heat than light in this thread, and unnecessary angst from some. I don't really have an agenda and don't care if you use an RMR or not. i posted fairly lengthy review of my experiences with the RMR on another thread and they certainly were not all positive, but net it IS better than iron sights for me. I'm around 13,000 rounds since christmas with mine, on an M&P, fwiw.
Maybe they do fog, but i haven't noticed that yet. But then, I like to drive with my windows down even when it's 100* and only turn the AC on in my truck when it's raining or i have passengers. TN isn't FL, but it's plenty hot and humid here and I haven't had fogging going from indoors to outdoors. And I carry it all over. Heck, I accidentally carried it through the metal detector at the georgia state capital earlier month. doh!
the lens being foggy or covered with rain or mud, etc are just not issues with a pistol for me, even though they are issues for me with rifles. maybe they are for you with pistols. but if you exclude range trips and classes, I can count on pretty much one hand the times in the past ten years when my EDC got mud on it. and because i have a shirt tail over it, it does not collect rainwater. either way, the physics of the issue isn't substantially different with a rifle.
however, I do shoot at night a lot, and that is where the RMR blows iron sights, including night sites, totally away. I'm out at night a lot with my EDC, and statistically, the incidence of ccw use at night is orders of magnitude higher than incidents of ccw use in the rain. So for me, it makes a lot of sense to optimize to the most likely event rather than try to accommodate the most unlikely events.
btw, my RMR does not use batteries and I never rack the slide by holding the red dot. that seems like a bad habit.
You do raise an important point about changing the reciprocating mass of the slide. I used the CORE model, which was designed for it, and you remove a metal plate that weighs just a little less than what the RMR does so it's not nearly as large of a change as it would be just bolting something onto the top. I understand if you are working through grief and anger issues as a result of a poor experience with a T1 on a pistol, but when you get past that, you should try an RMR on a pistol that was designed for an optic.
irons may not 'break' but i have seen plenty in matches that have slid sideways and put POI a long way from POA. like anything, they can fail. and they can also get covered in mud, etc.
net, i think location, daily habits, etc will make what works for one person quite a bit different than what works for another, so bashing someone else's experience seems a little myopic.
As with everything in life, there is NO wonder piece of kit that will solve the worlds problems. EVERYTHING we carry and use is made up of a stack of compromises. We choose to carry underpowered handguns because they are easier to conceal. We give up the power and accuracy of a rifle for the compromise of easy to carry and hide.
The key is to understand the strength and weakness of each system, make an informed decision and then train to mitigate the weaknesses and exploit the strengths of your chosen compromise.
With regards to fogging. How is it that RDS equipped patrol rifles dot have the fog issue. Is there something different with the MRDS vs say an Aimpoint PRO of T1? None of my rifles have ever fogged when transitioning from a cold car to hot humid ambient. Even the "cheap" Vortex Spark on my 22 stays fog free.
No clue TAZ. It may have something to do with moisture from your body or dirt, debris and lint trapping moisture particles leading to fog/condensation.
With regards to fogging. How is it that RDS equipped patrol rifles dot have the fog issue. Is there something different with the MRDS vs say an Aimpoint PRO of T1? None of my rifles have ever fogged when transitioning from a cold car to hot humid ambient. Even the "cheap" Vortex Spark on my 22 stays fog free.
No idea as I have never experienced it on any of the ACOGs/EOtechs/Aimpoints/Elcans that I have used on rifles. The gun had been in an A/C house and then in my car. It was in a belt kit that I strapped on at the range, then on the first draw the optic was fogged. The only other optic that gave me that sort of issue was a .22 rifle when I carried it from inside the house (~68 degrees) to outside in NC (~94 degrees). When I shouldered the rifle, the glass was too fogged to see a rabbit in the garden 5 feet away.
I will see if I can replicate it tomorrow.
Rick
With regards to fogging. How is it that RDS equipped patrol rifles dot have the fog issue.
Proximity to sweat?
-john
With regards to fogging. How is it that RDS equipped patrol rifles dot have the fog issue. Is there something different with the MRDS vs say an Aimpoint PRO of T1? None of my rifles have ever fogged when transitioning from a cold car to hot humid ambient. Even the "cheap" Vortex Spark on my 22 stays fog free.
There are multiple factors (like where your patrol rifle is kept), but other optics fogging is not unheard of. The logistics/situations of deploying a rifle differ from running an EDC RDS equipped handgun stored in a holster.
I'll run drills back to back with a RMR G19 and standard G19. If available, will video results this weekend.
Pistols: G19 Gen2 TTi RTS Package [P1], G19 Gen3 TTi spring Kit RMR07 [P2]
Ammo: 147gr FMJ Factory
Environment: Indoor Medium Lighting
Drill: Bill Drill -Concealed AIWB 7 Yards
Time:
String 1 - P1 2.45, P2 2.51
String 2 - P1 2.53, P2 2.49 [Flagged thumb caught on outer shirt slightly on P1]
String 3 - P1 2.43, P2 2.47
All Alpha Hits
Drill 20 Yards 3" Circle 5 Rounds 15 20 Sec
String 1 - P1 3/5, P2 5/5
String 2 - P1 4/5, P2 5/5
String 3 - P1 3/5, P2 4/5
Missed shot on P2 near edge of line, but a mike is a mike. Distance is where the RMR really shines. My par time for this drill was roughly 5 sec faster with the RMR compared to irons. YMMV. Will try to get some video up next week.
St.Michael
09-02-14, 08:09
I think this looks interesting:
http://www.recoilweb.com/the-6-second-optic-mount-37339.html
What magwell is that? Sorry for the off topic.
I haven't been keeping up with this thread so I am not sure what everyone is arguing about, but wanted to post about some changes I made to RMR/M&P setup (as it might help someone else).
As an early adopter of the RMR, I ran into some issues in regards to speed at close range, tracking targets (el prez, etc) and some reliability issues with early battery powered RMR's.
I did not care for a "co-witnessed" setup on my pistols as I found that there was to much going on for me in my sight picture. I also switched to the RM08 (non-battery model). The triangle is stupid accurate and can honestly shoot sub 1" 5rd groups at 25yds and have shot 1.5" 5rd groups at 50yds with regular ball ammo. I was still slow on draw though to close in targets. After contemplating my options this gun, I remembered that we have new students tape their rear sight in order to get them to focus on the front sight. They often times shoot remarkably well like this. So I ordered a tall Dawson Precision fiber front sight (green) and made sure that it sat below my triangle.
Drills at the range this Saturday confirmed that this combo works well. For speed, I just pick up the front sight (totally ignoring the triangle) and am back to normal speeds. Hits were accurate (6" circles at 7yds) so I think this is the setup for me.
YMMV.
C4
It's my opinion that sights are unneeded within 50 ft in a SD situation. If you're familiar with your weapon and practice, you can easily extend that range. I think the RMR is neat, but maybe on something besides a handgun. I used to shoot IPSC first with a stock Series 70 Gold Cup, then with a Series 80 racegun and it had giant Tasco red dot mounted to the frame. I shot better with the 70 series.
It's my opinion that sights are unneeded within 50 ft in a SD situation. If you're familiar with your weapon and practice, you can easily extend that range. I think the RMR is neat, but maybe on something besides a handgun. I used to shoot IPSC first with a stock Series 70 Gold Cup, then with a Series 80 racegun and it had giant Tasco red dot mounted to the frame. I shot better with the 70 series.
True that MOST people will never look at their sights when surprised and or frightened (point shoot). With that said, if you have a make a more accurate shot, sights are important and it is a learned skill (IMHO) to use your sights when confronted with a life or death situation.
RMR's are great for folks with visions problems. They also work well shooting on the move, shooting at a moving target and shooting at distance.
C4
True that MOST people will never look at their sights when surprised and or frightened (point shoot). With that said, if you have a make a more accurate shot, sights are important and it is a learned skill (IMHO) to use your sights when confronted with a life or death situation.
RMR's are great for folks with visions problems. They also work well shooting on the move, shooting at a moving target and shooting at distance.
C4
Sights are definitely important, I wasn't trying to downplay them. Just saying... I had always considered RMRs on pistols sort of a comp gun thing. I didn't realize that they were used for longer range shooting. I like my irons and use the 'ol Kentucky windage if I need it. I don't compete anymore so I'm out of the loop.
When I shoot on the move, I do it purely by instinct and point shooting and never use the sights. I find myself focusing more on the sights than on the moving part and I can move at a decent clip.
Sights are definitely important, I wasn't trying to downplay them. Just saying... I had always considered RMRs on pistols sort of a comp gun thing. I didn't realize that they were used for longer range shooting. I like my irons and use the 'ol Kentucky windage if I need it. I don't compete anymore so I'm out of the loop.
When I shoot on the move, I do it purely by instinct and point shooting and never use the sights. I find myself focusing more on the sights than on the moving part and I can move at a decent clip.
The RMR gives you a single aiming point (VS trying to align two). This makes distance shooting pretty simply IMHO.
When discussing shooting on the move, we have to define the distance and the size of the target. In training classes, we will commonly shoot at 15yds and in while being held to an 8" circle (or better) for accuracy. You will have to use your sights to get any kind of quality hits.
C4
That wasnt a question on value for money. It was an opinionated observation on an item thats not required to make something functional.
I don't know that anyone has said that irons aren't functional on their own. The RMR simply makes the gun even more functional.
For example, when I shoot at 25 yards, I really have to take my time and my focus shifts back and forth from target to front sight until I am confident I am well aligned. With the RMR, just place the dot and press the trigger. 50 and even 100 yard shots on steel are silly easy. I basically look at the END as something of a force multiplier. I can make fast precision shots at 25, and pretty easy torso shots at 50, 75, or 100 yards with it.
Voodoo_Man
09-05-14, 09:21
aiwb prototype holster
http://i.imgur.com/aPPkpcJ.jpg
aiwb prototype holster
How deep does it sit concealed? I run an incog and generally the RMR sits on my belt buckle running aiwb.
Voodoo_Man
09-05-14, 09:36
How deep does it sit concealed? I run an incog and generally the RMR sits on my belt buckle running aiwb.
Pretty much same thing, but the side of the clip on a 1.5inch belt will give you some cant. If I really wanted to I could make the rmr sit below the belt, but its fine the way it is. The holster is very comfortable, when I get to the range I'll post some vids (if I remember)
Blade tech makes a holster that accommodates the rmr. That's what I use, AIWB.
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