.308 AR Optics, input requested.

[ASH556]

Optics has to be one of the most expensive and controversial things about guns in general. So here's my dilemma:

I have a Smith & Wesson M&P10 (.308 AR). I got into this rifle after deciding that if I was going to carry something longer and heavier than my 5.56 SBR, it may as well be in a larger caliber as well. I've really enjoyed this rifle in the 2 months or so I've had it. When I set it up I just swapped my TA-11GH (green horseshoe) ACOG from my 14.5" 5.56 that I sold onto the .308. I thought it would be a good solution, and while maybe it's not a bad one, I find myself looking for something better. I find the ACOG's 3.5X to be great for 25-150 yds. It's fast, reasonably accurate, bright, bold, etc. Where it lacks, though is top end magnification for precision and longer distances, of which the .308 is certainly capable.

I think the real sticking point is that I didn't expect the M&P10 to be all that accurate. I figured it to be a "battle rifle" not a precision gun and expected 2MOA accuracy. I made the mistake of shooting the rifle with match grade ammo and a high-powered optic just to see what it would do. Out of the bed of my truck on a hunting pack, I could get it to do just over 1MOA with Federal 168GMM:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/10924793356_0d1239404d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/)
M&P10 grp 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

An SF buddy of mine took great interest in the rifle and wanted to see if it would do MOA, so I loaned it to him along with a Leupold 20X target scope. He texted me this yesterday:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11928587933_ab5f42bab6_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11928587933/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/11928587933/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

So now that I know the rifle is capable of good accuracy, I'm wanting some glass to take better advantage of it. The kicker is that I don't want to turn it into an outright heavy sniper rifle. I really love the way it balances and handles right now and don't find it to be burdensome to carry in the field. Since I'm not currently in an active war zone, the primary use of the rifle currently is hunting. After previously having some big, heavy bolt guns in the past and carrying/hunting with them, I very much appreciate the lighter-weight, more nimble rifles, especially in more hilly terrain. I'm really thinking about the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 with mil-dot reticle and .10 mil turrets. The Nightforce weighs 5 OZ more than the ACOG, but obviously 10X is quite a bit more than 3.5X for magnification. I'm hoping 5oz won't ruin the handling of the rifle. The other thing I don't want to loose is the way the rifle presents. The ACOG is very easy to get into and requires no effort to aim and fire standing freehand or even moving. I previously owned a Nightforce 2.5-10x24 and found it to be very unforgiving in this regard. Very small/tight eyebox. I'm hoping the x32 Nightforce has helped to remedy this. On the bottom end, the 2.5X of the Nightforce is actually lower than the 3.5 of the ACOG and comparing Exit pupil and FOV numbers, the NF @ 2.5 appears to beat the ACOG. On paper it should be okay, just hope it is in real life.

Financially, getting into the Nightforce will necessitate selling both the ACOG and a Leupold 6.5-20x40 target scope. The target scope is in QD rings and basically floats between a heavy-barreled 10-22 and anything else I want to check accuracy on. I'll admit it's a bit much scope for the 10/22, though for anything other than sitting on a bench.

What downsides to the Nightforce move am I missing? Does this seem like a good idea? I'd appreciate feedback from guys I know run a lot of .308 AR's like F2S, Trident, Voodoo, D90, etc.

Thanks guys!

ETA: pic of the rifle as it sits now:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/10916019916_0decd25c35_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916019916/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916019916/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

[jerrysimons]

Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32 and keep your target scope?
All of the features of the Nightforce for half the price, and since you said your rifle isn't a duty rifle then the legendary Nightforce ruggedness is perhaps not required. I was just reading up on the Vortex, apparently their target for durability was modeled after Leoupold Mk4s.

Sweet rifle by the way! I have followed your build from the beginning, it might just entice me away from an MWS, maybe.

Off topic, I wonder if the ambi M&P10 lower is compatible with the MWS upper?

[BrigandTwoFour]

Primary rifle use?

If it's just for bumping around and shooting, I really don't think you need to go to the extra expense that a Nightforce entails. You're probably not taking the rifle into combat and have a requirement to club someone over the head with it. I think you could probably bring your price down quite a bit from that. I would never advocate selling the ACOG, as I think its just a good handy optic to keep around.

The aforementioned Vortex PST 2.5-10x32 is a good little scope, but the FFP reticle does get tiny when zoomed down. If your eyes are good and you don't mind just using it as a duplex reticle, it's a good option. Too many people think that they're supposed to be able to use holdovers or do ranging with it at any magnification level. It has great glass on it, though and would be more than suitable. It's also slightly lighter than the Nightforce.

In the same price range (around $800), I would check out the Bushnell Elite 3-12x44 with the G2DMR reticle. Good deals can be had if you shop around. Another option for slightly cheaper is the SWFA SS 3-15. These two weigh in at 24oz, though.

Can you offer any more details on what you want to do with it?

[ASH556]

Primary rifle use?


Can you offer any more details on what you want to do with it?

Current primary use is deer hunting out to 300 yards. Thinking that higher power might help with detection/classification in low-light or shadows. Other uses would be target shooting out to 700yds, deer hunting potentially further, and then whatever form of bad stuff happening you might imagine. I like my gear to be absolutely solid so I don't have any doubts if/when I need to use it. I wear my rifles when hiking/scouting around and if I slip crossing a creek or something and the rifle goes down, I don't want to have to worry about any fragility, especially of the optics (probably the most fragile part inherently).

[darr3239]

My son has the Vortex PST 2.5-10x44 on his 901 and loves it. The 44mm version should add some light gathering and is only a tenth of an ounce heavier, while being .8" shorter, according to the Vortex website.

[Slippers]

Just my opinion and experience, but I found the Vortex 2.5-10x32 reticle too small at 2.5x magnification for it to be fast. In the woods it would disappear, and it's not like the illumination is daylight bright, either.

Luckily I was able to return the Vortex, and found a used NF 2.5-10x32 for only a couple hundred more. Since the warranty transfers, I wasn't concerned about prior use/abuse. At 2.5x the exit pupil and eye relief make it very easy to get behind. Mine has the NP-R2 reticle, which so far has worked well in the woods despite being pretty thin. I attribute this to the overall height and width of the reticle.

The "eye box" really tightens up at 10x, so don't expect too much. Based on just the magnification and objective lens size, there's only an additional 0.8mm diameter to the exit pupil at 10x when comparing the 24mm and 32mm models. You've had the 24, so you know how tight that can be. If you primarily want to use it at 2.5x, though, then it will probably work wonderfully.