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View Full Version : Ballistic conundrum, kinda



uncle money bags
01-13-14, 16:10
I considered posting this in the terminal ballistic forum but thought i would get a better answer here. If it is in the wrong place please move with my apologies.

I have a slight conundrum. Well, more of an oddity to me, and would like some feedback.
Here is my data:
Ammo is the kick ass Markm 262-
77 SMK
21.6 gr H322
Wolf srm primer
O.a.l. 2.25, with a light crimp on the neck

Weapon is a DD mk18-
SSA trigger
Aimpoint m4 2 moa
Unsuppressed, a2 flash hider
2500 rds through the gun to date.

I have a run n gun coming up this weekend which will require shots from 25 yards to 500 yards. The furthest target will be 20x20 inch steel. Before i went to check my zero and hold overs this last week i ran numbers through hornady and another ballistic trajectory calculator to get a rough estimate of where i needed to be for the different ranges. I do not have a chrono, but was able to get a pretty fair estimate of about 2200 fps at the muzzle by comparing several load charts and formulas and making rough calculations from there. Like i said i just wanted to be in the neighborhood so i wasnt wasting time and ammo. I used the G7 drag profile and .190 for the ballistic coefficient. I also the data under G1 and .372 to compare, and it was very similar.
Long story slightly shorter both charts agreed that i should be approximately 6 inches low at 200, 24" at 300, 54" at 400 and 101" low at 500 with a zero for 100 yards.
After re affirming zero i took aim at the 200 holding about 6 inches over and smacked it. I couldnt see the 300 yard gong from where i was situated so i went to the 400. This is a steel plate 20" high by 18" wide. I held over the estimated 4 feet mol and my spotter reported no splash. So i raised the sight picture up another foot, again no splash. On a whim i dropped my dot down to about 2 feet over the target and smacked it twice in a row. They were both direct hits and not bouncing up into the target. I did not give the 500 yard target a shot as it was too small to see.
Additional info:
Wind was 10 mph gusting to 15 right to left, temp was 55, humidity was low and the shots were across a shallow dip with less than a 5 degree downward incline.
I expected some difference from the numbers but nothing like less than half my expected holdover. When i played with the ballistic calculator to see what fps would allow that drop at that distance i had to input over 2900 at the muzzle. Since i know there is no way this round is making that speed from my weapon what am i missing here?

Leaveammoforme
01-13-14, 17:25
BC of .19 sounds low to me. Gotta know MV for any calculator to come close. But even then you need to shoot to confirm calculations. I would shoot to distances needed & record holdovers/adjustments.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9377/224-dia-77-gr-HPBT-MatchKing


Edit to add link

uncle money bags
01-13-14, 18:12
BC of .19 sounds low to me. Gotta know MV for any calculator to come close. But even then you need to shoot to confirm calculations. I would shoot to distances needed & record holdovers/adjustments.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9377/224-dia-77-gr-HPBT-MatchKing


Edit to add link

Yeah, i thought the same thing, but the chart i have lists separate bc's when using either the g1 or g7 drag profile.


You are absolutely right on shooting for actual hold overs. Which is how i have always done it. I was just surprised at the difference of what the calculator said and what it actually was and figured i must be missing something. Like i said, i know that puppy isnt traveling any where near the speed that would be required to match the actual hold overs.

ICANHITHIMMAN
01-13-14, 19:20
You have to have the MV, no way around this at all. Chronos are 90$

uncle money bags
01-13-14, 19:50
You have to have the MV, no way around this at all. Chronos are 90$

Yeah, i hear you. I know you're correct, and the cost is not an impediment. The problem is even with a chrono the numbers dont make sense to me. I think we can say for certain this round is not doing any where near 3000fps from a 10.3 inch barrel, yet that is what would be needed to get the trajectories i experienced. Maybe this will help explain what im talking about.

I realize this is just an academic exercise, but im hoping someone could point out where i may be wrong in the data. I left out the crossing wind in these graphs, but they made no significant change when they were added. Thanks again for your input.

2200 http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=34e38c32

3000 http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=dba07624

This is where i got the bc info for g7 profile- (pdf file)
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://media.wix.com/ugd/9f6509_ecc503a3a62f30100cf11dc4d2da84f0.pdf&rct=j&sa=U&ei=x5rUUrzWE8iGyAHLt4CQCA&ved=0CD4QFjAB&q=ballistic+coefficient+77+sierra+for+g7&usg=AFQjCNHpPrSqcpIsM6T8r40J-SYuRin_zw

GI_Jared
01-13-14, 21:42
Just chiming in with some load data (http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf) from Sierra specifically for ARs. This is for a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, but should help you figure out ballpark figures. Like you said there is no way you are close to 3000 FPS, my guess is around 2250 FPS.

Leaveammoforme
01-13-14, 22:57
After looking at links.... 400 drop is 4.5 ft not 6 ft. Maybe you were holding over more than you thought you were? 400 yards with RDS could be jacking with your perceived hold over? You say you hit at 2 ft high, so you aimed basically the targets height high , right?

uncle money bags
01-14-14, 07:10
After looking at links.... 400 drop is 4.5 ft not 6 ft. Maybe you were holding over more than you thought you were? 400 yards with RDS could be jacking with your perceived hold over? You say you hit at 2 ft high, so you aimed basically the targets height high , right?

Thanks for the catch, i meant 4 feet mol at 400. I have edited the original post.

Your point on the perceived holdover is what i immediately thought as well. at the 400 yard berm the top of the target is just shy of 24" from the top of the berm and i was aiming at the crest of the berm when i had the hits. I had the dot turned down as low as possible and still see the dot to eliminate any flare or distortion.

markm
01-14-14, 08:11
my guess is around 2250 FPS.

I'm at 2260 out of my 10.5 AR.

uncle money bags
01-14-14, 09:28
my guess is around 2250 FPS.


I'm at 2260 out of my 10.5 AR.

thanks for the input guys. Im glad to see i wasnt too far off in my estimate.

Bimmer
01-14-14, 10:49
Maybe you were holding over more than you thought you were?


Your point on the perceived holdover is what i immediately thought as well...


You might check your 100yd zero again, too. It wouldn't take much wiggle somewhere to throw you off a couple feet at 400yds.

And do I understand correctly that you did all this with 5 rounds? One shot at 200yds, and then 4 rounds (inc. 2 misses) at 400yds? This is hardly Molon's standard test protocol...

markm
01-14-14, 14:11
Also... I turn the red dot down as low as possible when trying to take a long or precision shot of any kind.

uncle money bags
01-14-14, 14:51
You might check your 100yd zero again, too. It wouldn't take much wiggle somewhere to throw you off a couple feet at 400yds.

And do I understand correctly that you did all this with 5 rounds? One shot at 200yds, and then 4 rounds (inc. 2 misses) at 400yds? This is hardly Molon's standard test protocol...

When i zeroed i used 5 shot groups and adjusted from there. Went through 5 or 6 iterations before i was satisfied with the zero. I moved to the 200 and beyond ranges after that. I can see where my omission of shots taken would be confusing. At the end of the session i went back to the 100 yard range and re verified my zero and it was cutting at the dot and top of the front sight post when using irons. Total round count for the day was about 200. The 200 and beyond shooting was from prone with a rest, i would be more suspect of my eyes than the possibility of the gun moving. However, im not ruling anything out. Thanks for the nfo.


Also... I turn the red dot down as low as possible when trying to take a long or precision shot of any kind.

Good advice, i follow that rule religiously.

308sako
01-14-14, 18:16
My "hot or maximum" 77 SMK - 5.56 - IMR 8208 XBR load gives 2500 ft/secs from my 11.5"

TehLlama
01-15-14, 13:08
This helps tremendously - get it to where the dot itself is translucent, and then you can put the target on specific parts of the dot - works pretty well out to 300, where even higher MV rifles are back to below the dot.

Since this is an okay reference thread, worth pointing out.

markm
01-15-14, 14:36
My "hot or maximum" 77 SMK - 5.56 - IMR 8208 XBR load gives 2500 ft/secs from my 11.5"

We run one of those loads too. XBR and 77s. I have two entries for that load out of my 10.5.... One says 2447 FPS, and the second is 2387 FPS. Not sure what the dates/temps/powder lots are... but that is my defense load. Extra 200+/- fps for home defense.