AR Schwag: Buying the best or buying what works fine

[Gutshot John]

I'm amazed at what some people seem to spend on gear for their ARs.

I can understand a $200 LaRue mount or FF rail system...but do we really need an $80 VFG? or $200 flashlight? Even a $50 pistol grip seems excessive.

Is it just me? or are we encouraging manufacturers to charge obscene amounts of money for metal/plastic of dubious quality/value?

If I'm wrong, I'd really like to understand what value an $80 VFG or $200 flashilight/mount gives.

[markm]

As long as it's chrome lined... who cares?

[Gutshot John]

As long as it's chrome lined... who cares?

A chrome-lined VFG? ;)

[Shihan]

You need to take into account the research that goes into some of the items. This research costs $.

[Gutshot John]

You need to take into account the research that goes into some of the items. This research costs $.

I can see that...but what type of research goes into a VFG or pistol grip? What value does it add that wasn't there before? I've seen $200 flashlights malfunction twice as often as those that cost half if not a quarter as much.

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I'm just trying to understand what it is. Like I said I see the value in a scope mount or rifle barrel but is it really just a function of wanting "the best"? or is there something that justifies the cost?

[Failure2Stop]

I cringe every time I buy a TD Stubby VFG, but they work the best with my application of the VFG. I would not spend the cash for one of the full sized ones, as my Knight's works adequately (the price of which I also cringe at).

I paid over $200 for each of my lights simply because I found that the others simply did not perform as well or last as long.

I buy LMT lowers because I know what a PITA a broken trigger spring is when you need it.

I buy LMT/Troy/LaRue BUISs because I know that if my gun suffers enough to damage my primary optic beyond use, the quality of the material and manufacture will be a factor in if I will have a sighting system or not.

I buy quality nylon because I have seen mag pouches of lesser quality (not even as low as "airsoft" quality) blow out within a few weeks.

I work for the money I pay for items. I expect those items to work hard for me, and you get what you pay for (within reason, of course). Would I rather pay the price of an off-brand? Absolutely- but I am buying a little piece of mind along with the kit item.

[Gutshot John]

I cringe every time I buy a TD Stubby VFG, but they work the best with my application of the VFG. I would not spend the cash for one of the full sized ones, as my Knight's works adequately (the price of which I also cringe at).

Talking only about the VFG since you seem to have put some money there...

Can you expound a bit in terms of what value you see out of it as opposed to a cheaper model? How do you "apply" its use that it becomes a worthwhile cost?

I'm really just curious about what you get out of it that wouldn't be had in a $15 model?

[Jay Cunningham]

If it does what you want it to do, the price is almost secondary.

[RD62]

Buy what is best for YOU!

If that is CAA, Fobus, or whatever that's OK. If what's best for you is MagPul, Daniel Defense, LaRue, TD or whatever that's fine too. It's up to you. I think a lot of us have had or handled some inexpensive items and quickly realized we got what we paid for. Does an A2 grip work? All day long. Does a MagPul MIAD offer a customized fit and storage ability? Yep. Is it work the difference? Up to you! It is to me! Does a $35 G2 in a $20 VTAC mount work? It does for me! Does an X300 or a Scout light, etc. Sure does! Is it worth the extra coin? Not to me, but maybe for you! That's one of the great things about this platform, modularity and a vast array of accessories.


-RD62

[austinN4]

If it does what you want it to do, the price is almost secondary.
Not if another will do as good and cost less!:) The key, however, is the "do as good" part.

[Gutshot John]

I think a lot of us have had or handled some inexpensive items and quickly realized we got what we paid for.

-RD62

I totally agree, but in my experience those things have been mounts or rails and other things that directly impact the function of a rifle.

A cheap VFG isn't going to adversely affect the function of a rifle like a cheap mount or rail would.

[Jay Cunningham]

A reasonable quality AR-15 type carbine is going to cost you around $900 - no ifs, ands or buts.

Decent 5.56mm currently costs $365 for 1,000 rounds.

So with the above you have just enough to take to the range and shoot (assuming the rifle came with one or two magazines) and you have already spent over $1100...

I don't know whether golf or riding Harleys or digital home theater are ultimately more or less expensive than the "hobby" of shooting AR rifles, but choosing to do this thing will cost you a certain amount of cash.

I guess I am constantly amazed at how cheap guys can be. Good quality usually commands a premium price. If you consider your rifle a play toy plinker than anything will be just fine.

[bigshooter]

Decent 5.56mm currently costs $265 for 1,000 rounds

i'd like a link for that!

[Gutshot John]

It's not that I'm cheap, I'm just wondering where should that money get spent.

I say all this having spent $150 for a "grip-pod" myself about a year ago. Today they are about half that much. All in all I just didn't see the value involved in it relative to a VFG 1/10th the price. Last week I also spent $200+ on a LaRue mount but I consider it money well spent.

[chadbag]

These items are not mass market. The sales margin at both the manufacturer and dealer ends will be higher than comparable items (in terms of material and manufacturing) because they are low volume items relatively speaking and in order to stay in business and get a decent return on investment, the manufacturer and the dealer both have to make enough money on the sale of the item to make it worth while.

Also, the $50-$80 VFG is a lot better quality and will not break on you as often (in most cases). I stock everything from $12 to close to $100 VFG and I know which ones I would want on my guns.

In most cases, you get what you pay for.

Chad

[Quick Karl]

It's no more than a demostration of how easily manipulated most consumers are.

Remember that 90% of this stuff spends 99% of it's life, in a closet or under a bed, or in the best of circumstances, in a safe.

[Gutshot John]

Fair enough. I'm not trying to say that either the manufacturer or dealer shouldn't earn a living or that I even feel like I'm being gouged, I don't.

This is entirely a consumer question, and especially those of us that don't have department/government funding.

[Ian02]

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[Ian02]

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[Jay Cunningham]

i'd like a link for that!

Typo - I meant $365.

eta: Jesus Christ guys, cut me some slack...

[KintlaLake]

It's not that I'm cheap, I'm just wondering where should that money get spent.

Buyer's choice, 'John. The "sweet spot" is called value, and the definition varies with the buyer.


I don't know whether golf or riding Harleys or digital home theater are ultimately more or less expensive than the "hobby" of shooting AR rifles, but choosing to do this thing will cost you a certain amount of cash.

I don't own a Harley, Thekatar, but if you see me riding my BMW in cold weather, I'm wearing about $2,200 in gear alone. My life and hide depend on the quality (not the price) of the gear I choose. With that in mind, I buy the best (not the most expensive) that I can afford and justify.

I approach my defensive weapons with the same attitude -- and, alas, with the same checkbook. :rolleyes:

[bigshooter]

Typo - I meant $365.

eta: Jesus Christ guys, cut me some slack...


:D i was just hoping it wasn't a typo!

[Stickman]

Is it just me? or are we encouraging manufacturers to charge obscene amounts of money for metal/plastic of dubious quality/value?

If I'm wrong, I'd really like to understand what value an $80 VFG or $200 flashilight/mount gives.


I tend to pay more for rock climbing equipment than I think I should, but if you have ever taken an 80' fall, you would be glad you weren't buying import equipment to save 30%.

In that same manner, I deploy with a weapon on a regular basis to protect my life, and the lives of others. I've had gear go down when things were bad, and it sucks hard. Buying cheap crap to save a few dollars isn't worth it for me. I see nothing worthwhile in a $200 light mount, but I can see investing in a light that will hold up to the abuse I will put it through.

[Failure2Stop]

I tend to pay more for rock climbing equipment than I think I should, but if you have ever taken an 80' fall, you would be glad you weren't buying import equipment to save 30%.

The "guy that survives the 80' fall versus the guy that doesn't" holds massive weight with me (as per the obvious intent in the comparison).


. . . if you see me riding my BMW in cold weather, I'm wearing about $2,200 in gear alone. My life and hide depend on the quality (not the price) of the gear I choose. With that in mind, I buy the best (not the most expensive) that I can afford and justify.

I approach my defensive weapons with the same attitude -- and, alas, with the same checkbook. :rolleyes:

-This should be somebody's sig line.

Anyway- what you stick on your gun and how much you pay to do it is directly related to the amount of money you have to spend, the need of usability/durability, the desired reaction from others, and personal satisfaction.

Though I do care about how it looks (yup, I am a visually-oriented learner), the most important things to me are the durability and usability, in conjunction with cost (though strippers and booze seem to deprive me of more cash than my ARs do).



Can you expound a bit in terms of what value you see out of it (VFG) as opposed to a cheaper model? How do you "apply" its use that it becomes a worthwhile cost?

The TD version is "just right". Not perfect, but perfectly satisfactory.
Longer VFGs are wasted on my grip, and interfere with my use of the weapon in actual use. I really don't mean to sound condescending when I say this, but you really won't understand until you are put into the position. The longer VFG, with my grip (thumb forward, just over and behind my light at 10 o'clock) can catch when snaked into position over support and limits declination when shooting from a prone position.

Also, the cheaper models have a nasty habit of breaking when performing muzzle-thumps, glass break/rake, and aggressive use. The TD (while an absolute be-yotch to mount) has been the most solid I have used. I have seen numerous Knights VFGs with sheared/worn-out retainer studs, and none with the TD. The obvious caveat is that I have seen about 10x as many Knight's as TDs. The VFG is relevant enough to my use of the weapon in conjunction with IR lasers/illuminators, lights, and my shooting style, that I am begrudgingly willing to spend ~$65 for the right one.

[rob_s]

I'm curious to know where you're going that you see all this Crapco and CAA garbage outperforming the quality gear like TD, Surefire, etc.

I go to classes whenever I can, and I run a carbine match with 30+/- shooters every month, and I see all manner of "just as good as" garbage come out and do nothing but FAIL. I can spot the guys a mile away. They see my rifle and immediately start in with the "how much did you pay for that xyz? yeah? I only paid 1/10th that for this here ABC and I bet mine's just as good." Within a half an hour their crap is sitting on the deck, or won't light up, or won't do whatever the hell it was supposed to do at 1/10th the cost.

Frankly I'm amazed at how CHEAP some bastards can be. If you can't afford good gear, don't buy it at all. If I lost my job tomorrow and couldn't afford all the wonder toys and had to sell them to pay the rent, I'd keep my $500 AK and a couple of thousand rounds for it. I wouldn't stick a chinese knockoff Aimpoint on it just because I couldn't afford the real thing, I wouldn't stick some POS CAA stock on it just because I couldn't afford the Vltor extension, etc. I'd just shoot the shit out of the damn thing and go right on beating the snot out of the majority of AR shooters because the one thing most shooters have in common, cheap bastards or snotty rich bastards, is that they spend more time bolting junk on their guns than they do running them.

If a piece of equipment won't run on the static range, or the one-way range, or the square-range, what makes anyone think it's going to run anywhere else.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm curious to know where you're going that you see all this Crapco and CAA garbage outperforming the quality gear like TD, Surefire, etc.

I go to classes whenever I can, and I run a carbine match with 30+/- shooters every month, and I see all manner of "just as good as" garbage come out and do nothing but FAIL. I can spot the guys a mile away. They see my rifle and immediately start in with the "how much did you pay for that xyz? yeah? I only paid 1/10th that for this here ABC and I bet mine's just as good." Within a half an hour their crap is sitting on the deck, or won't light up, or won't do whatever the hell it was supposed to do at 1/10th the cost.

Frankly I'm amazed at how CHEAP some bastards can be. If you can't afford good gear, don't buy it at all. If I lost my job tomorrow and couldn't afford all the wonder toys and had to sell them to pay the rent, I'd keep my $500 AK and a couple of thousand rounds for it. I wouldn't stick a chinese knockoff Aimpoint on it just because I couldn't afford the real thing, I wouldn't stick some POS CAA stock on it just because I couldn't afford the Vltor extension, etc. I'd just shoot the shit out of the damn thing and go right on beating the snot out of the majority of AR shooters because the one thing most shooters have in common, cheap bastards or snotty rich bastards, is that they spend more time bolting junk on their guns than they do running them.

If a piece of equipment won't run on the static range, or the one-way range, or the square-range, what makes anyone think it's going to run anywhere else.

Every once in a while the planets align and Rob and I agree 100%.

[rob_s]

Every once in a while the planets align and Rob and I agree 100%.

I was going to originally quote your post re: Harleys and such and just say +1, but that seemed to TOS that I couldn't do it. :D

[Quick Karl]

I really think some of you guys need girlfriends :p

If someone wants to spend, let them spend -- if someone doesn't want to, or can't afford to, don't disrespect or condescend them, it makes you look small.

No one makes themselves look better by slamming someone else for having less expertise - you look better by mentoring those with less expertise.

[8200rpm]

If you can't afford good gear, don't buy it at all. If I lost my job tomorrow and couldn't afford all the wonder toys and had to sell them to pay the rent, I'd keep my $500 AK and a couple of thousand rounds for it. I wouldn't stick a chinese knockoff Aimpoint on it just because I couldn't afford the real thing, I wouldn't stick some POS CAA stock on it just because I couldn't afford the Vltor extension, etc.


Now, that should be a sig line.:cool: That's a very sensible and the only logical doctrine for acquiring proper gear. If you don't mind, I'm going to quote you on my signature.

[Lumpy196]

Every once in a while the planets align and Rob and I agree 100%.



I came this close to yelling AMEN

[Gutshot John]

Well I suppose it is cheaper than cocaine and hookers. :D

[boltcatch]

I'm curious to know where you're going that you see all this Crapco and CAA garbage outperforming the quality gear like TD, Surefire, etc.

I go to classes whenever I can, and I run a carbine match with 30+/- shooters every month, and I see all manner of "just as good as" garbage come out and do nothing but FAIL. I can spot the guys a mile away. They see my rifle and immediately start in with the "how much did you pay for that xyz? yeah? I only paid 1/10th that for this here ABC and I bet mine's just as good." Within a half an hour their crap is sitting on the deck, or won't light up, or won't do whatever the hell it was supposed to do at 1/10th the cost.

Frankly I'm amazed at how CHEAP some bastards can be. If you can't afford good gear, don't buy it at all. If I lost my job tomorrow and couldn't afford all the wonder toys and had to sell them to pay the rent, I'd keep my $500 AK and a couple of thousand rounds for it. I wouldn't stick a chinese knockoff Aimpoint on it just because I couldn't afford the real thing, I wouldn't stick some POS CAA stock on it just because I couldn't afford the Vltor extension, etc. I'd just shoot the shit out of the damn thing and go right on beating the snot out of the majority of AR shooters because the one thing most shooters have in common, cheap bastards or snotty rich bastards, is that they spend more time bolting junk on their guns than they do running them.

If a piece of equipment won't run on the static range, or the one-way range, or the square-range, what makes anyone think it's going to run anywhere else.


I wholeheartedly agree. When people start asking for "$600 AR's", I usually tell them to get an AK or SKS instead.

One of my own personal pet peeves:

The guys who spend several hundred dollars on knock-off scopes, lasers, and all manner of other "tactical" crap, possibly on several AR's... and THEN complain they can't afford a quality AR (or perhaps even a chrome lined barrel), and call me a snob for my own choice in gear. Most of these guys make significantly more than I do, they simply make poor decisions with money.

Think of the guy who has all the cheap curb feeler crap on his car, yet hasn't changed the oil in 10K miles because he can't afford to.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

The "guy that survives the 80' fall versus the guy that doesn't" holds massive weight with me (as per the obvious intent in the comparison).

But do you think your $100 water bottle is going to make a difference, is the point in this thread...

I was all for buying the LaRue FUG...it looked awesome, it functioned well and they are a great company...until I found out its made of plastic...for an aluminum one like that Id drop $80 for it in a heartbeat...but when I discovered it was plastic, it was an emotional drop for me...

[militarymoron]

i like having the coolest rifle on my block.

[Cold Zero]

Well I suppose it is cheaper than cocaine and hookers. :D


There is no need to bring politics into this discussion.:D :eek:

[Parabellum9x19mm]

on my first AR (Bushmaster, by the way) I had a cheap Fobus VFG.

i figured they are all the same, why spend more? yeah, to attach it i had to grease it down with CLP and bang it on with a mallet, but i didn't know any better at the time.

years later, i now run a couple of Bobro VFGs and the difference is night and day. absolutely worth every penny for me. yeah, it was painful to spend $150 on VFGs, but now that the money is spent, i'm happy about it. i would have spent the money on something else anyway and maybe in a way that would have left me nothing to show for it.

i used to be one of those people who would defend some shoddy gear, simply because it was what i happened to own.

now i know better. no, i still cannot afford a S&B Short Dot...and I probably never will, but you won't catch me saying that my Accupoint is "just as good", simply because that is the most i am willing to spend.

buy the best gear you can afford, but don't deride others for "spending needlessly' simply because you are not willing to or are unable to buy the same kit.

as always, if its a choice between KISS and crap, go KISS every time.

[rob_s]

But do you think your $100 water bottle is going to make a difference, is the point in this thread...

Interestingly you have managed to both hit and miss the target all in one post.

If you can't ascertain the difference between the $100 and $10 water bottle, chances are you'll be fine with the $10. That is, of course, until it fails, at which point you'll find yourself wishing you had spent the extra $90 to ensure that you are getting water into your system.

[Quick Karl]

Or you will feel REALLY stupid for wasting an additional $90 for a water bottle that failed, and had a cool logo on it, but at least you can dehydrate in style ;)

The fact is that, sure, there are very low quality products that aren't worth the material they are made of, but there is also average-good products with neat logos and slick 'branding' schemes behind them, that serve no purpose other than getting more of your money based on image.

The Madison avenue image makers, love people that are driven by image.

Think about it...

[M1A2_Tanker]

Mt VFG cast me a whopping $8.99 on sale at midway it does everything i want it to. I am one of those who can see the OP's point, and a cheap bastard too!:D

[R1pper]

Here is more proof (as if it is needed) that spending a little more money one time is better than buying twice. I bought a piece of shit weaponlight for about $50 when I bought my upper and big shocker it shit the bed. Well now I am going to end up buying a more expensive higher quality weaponlight.

-DM-

[Jerm]

i see it as a gamble...

am i willing to pay a premium to increase my odds?

yes...to whatever extent my budget will allow.

i think the only time its a problem,is when you dont do your research and end up spending the extra cash on something that isnt improving your odds.

its rare that i regret spending the extra money on something which all indications suggest is of higher quality than the alternative.i would say the opposite is true(i often regret it) when ive placed the priority too much on price.

[KintlaLake]

If you can't afford good gear, don't buy it at all.

It's true that cheap gear eventually will disappoint (or worse), but there's a place for less expensive gear that works.

I visited an AR-savvy dealer last summer and asked him to propose upgrades for my relatively new M&P 15. Among other things, he suggested that I replace the stock with a Vltor or a Magpul -- but (because he's a decent listener) he knew that my wallet wasn't ready.

Did he tell me to sell my gun and come back when I was serious? :rolleyes: Nope -- he suggested that I add a CAA :eek: saddle and a generic buttpad (neither of which he sells) to the OEM stock and upgrade to a better piece later.

What I got out of the deal was a consistent, repeatable cheek weld for thirty bucks and $150 in my pocket. And the dealer got more of my business (Aimpoint & mount, Troy BUIS, PMags...).

In the motorcycle world, if I told everyone who didn't wear a $700 Arai helmet (like the four that I own) to sell their bikes and walk, my fellow riders would judge me an arrogant ass.

And they'd be right.

[rob_s]

It's true that cheap gear eventually will disappoint (or worse), but there's a place for less expensive gear that works.
I didn't say "expensive", I said "good". Sometimes expensive isn't good and sometimes good isn't expensive.


I visited an AR-savvy dealer last summer and asked him to propose upgrades for my relatively new M&P 15. Among other things, he suggested that I replace the stock with a Vltor or a Magpul -- but (because he's a decent listener) he knew that my wallet wasn't ready.

Did he tell me to sell my gun and come back when I was serious? :rolleyes: Nope -- he suggested that I add a CAA :eek: saddle and a generic buttpad (neither of which he sells) to the OEM stock and upgrade to a better piece later.
This is actually one of my favorites. Now I freely admit that I don't keep up with all the ways and means of CAA, but I can't recall seeing a single stock that they sell that does ANYTHING better than the original. What I can recall is seeing guys come out to classes and matches with bone stock Colts and spanking the shit out of guys that bought a Bushmaster for $400 less and proceeded to sink $400 in CAA and Crapco into the rifle.

Frankly, I can't think of a single one of our top shooters that doesn't get this (or a single one that uses Crapco or CAA junk for that matter). One of our best shooters, who made it a race for second every time he came out, ran an old Bushmaster with a Trijicon Reflex (that he bought new when they were the hot thing) on the top of it. A2 grip, original sliding buttstock, skinny single heat-shield handguards, etc.

Personally I'm going to go with these guy's lead and buy a good, high quality, firearm and go learn to shoot the piss out of it.


In the motorcycle world, if I told everyone who didn't wear a $700 Arai helmet (like the four that I own) to sell their bikes and walk, my fellow riders would judge me an arrogant ass.

And they'd be right.
Another favorite of mine. How much are these guys spending on their bikes? I see squids running around on bikes that cost $10k+ on the showroom floor, then add $5k in bling, and they ride around with a $100 Walmart helmet on. I remember buying my first helmet and asking "how much should I spend?" The response I got then was "how much is your head worth?"

The same thing applies here. It's not about being arrogant, it's about being right and making sense.

[RD62]

Here is more proof (as if it is needed) that spending a little more money one time is better than buying twice. I bought a piece of shit weaponlight for about $50 when I bought my upper and big shocker it shit the bed. Well now I am going to end up buying a more expensive higher quality weaponlight.

-DM-

You mean a new light that the $50 from the original could have helped pay in the first place?

Not directing at you Dick, just making a point for the sake of the thread.


-RD62

[RD62]

Let me just add a little perspective here. I work in sales everyday. Food sales. Not very tactical, but everyones gotta eat right? These discussions are the kind I am hit with on a daily basis. I have all kinds of products and all different levels of the same product.

We'll just use Green Beans for an example. At least once a week I am asked how much green beans cost. I do not immediately spout out a price. I ASK QUESTIONS. Questions about my customers intended use for these beans. Then I aske things like, frozen, fresh, canned, low sodium, italian cut, french style, whole, etc? Because what may work for one customer in one situation may not be what is best for another with another intended application. If this customer is going to mix these beans into a casserole and bake the crap out of it, or put it on a Ryan's buffet, he needs something different than a white table cloth rest serving these beans alongside a $30 Prime Bone-In Ribeye. And I suggest different things. Could I try and sell them the same beans? Sure, but it would come back and bite me in the butt eventually.

There is the most expensive, the cheapest and somewhere it between is the best VALUE. And that is what I try and find for my customers, the best value for them specifically. Alot of folks think that they should just buy the cheapest Green Bean they can find. And then you show them that it has alot more water and a lot less beans, then a more expensive bean, and well you don't sell or serve Green Bean water, at least not at any restaraunts I eat at!

So Green Beans, or TVs, Cars, or Guns. To a point you may be paying for the name, and to a point you get what you pay for. What you have to decide is what you can afford, and then within that budget what is the best VALUE for you. If that is an NC Star scope or a Short Dot I really don't care. Just quit trying to tell me I am wrong for buying what I feel is the best VALUE for me.

Again I see it on a daily basis. People trying to save a buck, buying cheap; either cheap ingredients or cheap restaruant equipment, and then end up having to turn around and buy the more expensive/better one and it costs them more. But buy what you can afford and works best for you.

I have just found, through experience, that I cant AFFORD to buy cheap!


-RD62

[Parabellum9x19mm]

agreed RD62.

a lot of times when you buy crap, you wind up spending more money in the long run.

like rob_s said in his last post, expensive doesn't always mean good. look at the CAA "sniper stock" (http://cgwgun.com/detail.aspx?ID=338). that thing is $400 worth of garbage.

as others have stated, its about value....and items that are the best value are rarely the cheapest option and often not the most expensive option either.

even if you are not using a weapon for duty or in a life & death situation, its not fun when stuff fails.

i can understand that people don't want to feel as if they have bought something inferior. "my Olympic is just as good as a LMT/Colt" type crap that you hear a lot. i used to defend my Bushmaster rifle up and down. but when i compare it to the LMT and Noveskes that i have bought since, there truly is no comparison. its a whole different league. if i just put a couple hundred more into my first AR purchase, i would have had a weapon that was worlds better.

i can also understand why others look at certain things as being "over-kill"....such as having a combat proven accessories or optics on a plinker.

if its a choice between iron sights and a clone-point....just use your irons until you have enough for the aimpoint. the $100 you wasted on the clone-point would have been put to better use being saved up towards the real thing.

personally, i'd rather spend a little more up front so i don't wind up spending more in the long run. live and learn. shoot enough and i think you will come to the same conclusion.

[KintlaLake]

I didn't say "expensive", I said "good". Sometimes expensive isn't good and sometimes good isn't expensive.

Noted, and agreed.


Now I freely admit that I don't keep up with all the ways and means of CAA, but I can't recall seeing a single stock that they sell that does ANYTHING better than the original.

I installed a CAA saddle (http://www.commandarms.com/product.asp?pID=85&cID=57). It solved the cheek-weld issue and works perfectly for that purpose. As it turns out, that helpful dealer told me the truth. ;) And when I do pull the trigger on a Modstock or a UBR, he'll get my business.


How much are these guys spending on their bikes? I see squids running around on bikes that cost $10k+ on the showroom floor, then add $5k in bling, and they ride around with a $100 Walmart helmet on.

Sure, and there are riders who wear $5,000 in high-zoot custom gear and don't maintain their machines by the book -- buyer's choice. Either way, I don't feel it's my place to run them off the road because their choices differ from mine.


It's not about being arrogant, it's about being right and making sense.

Speaking just for myself here, Rob, I have plenty to do "making sense" to myself and making my own "right" choices. ;)

While I'm happy to learn about (and stipulate to) what differentiates one product from another, quality-wise, I do my best to avoid extending that differentiation to the choices other people make, people whose experiences I don't share.

[rob_s]

Go back to the first post in this thread. That poster put himself out there trying to justify why he buys "just as good" and asked the membership here for opinions. I didn't march up to him on the range and say "you should just buy no stock at all rather than that Crapco stock". He came out in public and asked for opinions.

Do I look down my nose and make assumptions about a shooter's ability when I see them show up at a class or match with a bunch of cheap junk bolted onto their rifle, and a giant black vest with 20 magazines and other junk hanging off of it? Yes I do. Is that bias borne out to be well placed 99% of the time? Yes it is. Do I march up to them and say "you're an idiot and you should get rid of all that crap"? No I do not. However, more often than not, halfway into a class those guys see how they are shooting and how other guys are shooting, and they start seeking out advice. At that point there's nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in the gear they've selected and pointing out that they're more likely better with stock iron sights that work than with the Clonepoint that they got for $100 that didn't make it to lunch on TD1.

The sad thing is that these same guys think that the fact that my AR ha $3k worth of crap attached to it is the reason my name appears at the top of the scores more often than not. They miss the fact that they would have been better off skipping that $400 worth of garbage and spending that money on a class, shooting iron sights, and learning how to shoot. I didn't buy my shooting ability by purchasing gear, I bought it by going to classes and getting out on the range.

Being blunt or honest and being mean are not the same thing, but unfortunately the males of the species get very defensive about their purchases (whether TVs, or Harleys, or golf clubs, or whatever) and take honesty and bluntness, even when they ask for it to begin with, as being mean, or arrogant, or rude, or whatever. It doesn't mean that whatever was said in a "mean" way is not still true.

[KintlaLake]

Got it, Rob. :)

That guy who looked me in the eye and suggested the CAA piece, by the way, may be the most blunt person I know. Blunt is good -- hell, mean is good. For the record, I oppose any and all efforts to eliminate "bullying," in schools or elsewhere... :D

[Gutshot John]

I don't think you can be "cheap" when it comes to purchasing a weapon. Invariably you will get what you pay for.

But there have been times also when cheaper accessories outperform the more expensive stuff.

[MassMark]

Everyone makes some valid points - it's one reason at least forums like this are such a great outlet for knowledge and opinions. I have been on both sides of the spectrum when it comes to making purchases. I tend to gravitate toward the "buy it once" principle and spend a good deal of time researching before I buy. I have been fortunate for the most part and at the same time have had failures on the high, medium and low end at time or three.

When I bought my LaRue Lt-150, I cringed as I typed in my CC#. "Holy shit", I thought, "this had better be worth it". I'm on tight strings with a wife finishing up nursing school and that money swam in my head as everything from utility bills to groceries, to payments on my kids braces. Those thoughts faded, as I opened the package - then mounted it on my rifle. Was I holding $150.00 worth of metal? Is my Tripower mounted in magic? Well, no - however what I did get was a piece of equipment that I would bet my life on - this after watching my Tripower take a dive off my rifle after two A.R.M.S mount failures. When I see posters asking about ARMS mounts, I almost always try to steer them toward LaRue. I admit that I'm not abrasive or condescending about it - that's not my style, but I do try to point people in another direction. I did the same recently about YHM BUIS - hopefully getting the poster to think whether spending a little extra on a wobble-free Troy, might be worth the elimination of lunches out for a couple of days....

Which is where I am in this. I effectively "rob Peter to pay Paul" - especially now. Everything I buy comes at the sacrifice of something else, (i.e: lunches out, tee-times, pay-per view, etc.). I'm not looking for sympathy, or even empathy - it's my life path right now and I'm okay with it. I constantly run a balance between good and good enough, but when my hard earned is going into someone else's pocket, I want my return to be worth every red cent. My AR-15 build will be the same way. I did my homework, (some right here), know what I would like to have on my rifle and what the budget will allow. I'd rather run a basic rifle for the time being and put the best I can get on it down the road, then hang a bunch of nonsense on there that I'll likely end up replacing anyway....When I post pictures of my Anvil Arms M4, it likely won't be to the "ooohs and ahhhhs" of the tacticool elite - it will be pretty bare bones. However, it will be a canvas for a more well-thought weapon as time and budget allow....

[SGTMAJ]

I see it as I have spent most of my adult life in uniform using the weapons and equipment either some PM thought was a good idea or the supply guy could scrounge out of the system. When I was a young Marine I would spend much of my hard earned money on tactical gear and weapons accessories to help me accomplish my mission . As I grew older and had more rank I didnt buy the good gear / accessories anymore as I wanted the younger Marines to see I was using the same junk they were issued and alot of it was good but the crap factor was still high in alot of the things I was issued. Now Im just a Retired Marine and can buy whatever I want and dammed straight I will buy the best quality gear I can or wait and save up to get it. Crappy gear costs you at the worse possible moment. I never want to wonder will my gear hold up or not. Now I just have to wonder if I will hold up lol .

[dialM4murder]

Buy what is best for YOU!

If that is CAA, Fobus, or whatever that's OK. If what's best for you is MagPul, Daniel Defense, LaRue, TD or whatever that's fine too. It's up to you. I think a lot of us have had or handled some inexpensive items and quickly realized we got what we paid for. Does an A2 grip work? All day long. Does a MagPul MIAD offer a customized fit and storage ability? Yep. Is it work the difference? Up to you! It is to me! Does a $35 G2 in a $20 VTAC mount work? It does for me! Does an X300 or a Scout light, etc. Sure does! Is it worth the extra coin? Not to me, but maybe for you! That's one of the great things about this platform, modularity and a vast array of accessories.


-RD62

Agreed.

[DrDrake]

Short and sweet answer in my opinion.

I'd rather buy once.

Go cheap and in most cases buy twice and you still don't get the performance you want.

Cheep goods often break and the manufactures of cheap goods often lack customer support.

JMO

Drake

[Razorhunter]

I have no problem paying well for nice products, but there are times when things get WAY out of hand.
Let me tell you about OVERCHARGING. Try $16K for an AR10, albeit the worlds nicest.
Now don't take me the wrong way here, because I love KAC products, but I had a nice lengthy discussion about all things gun related with Larry Knesek today, and I asked him what his last MK11 Mod0 sold for. $16,000.00 was the selling price. That is what the new M110 SASS is selling for too.
I THINK the match grade SR25's were selling for right around $10K too, IIRC.
These should be $2000.00 weapons, MAYBE $2500.00
Too bad. KAC would take over the AR market if they would stop this madness.
They are a very innovative company, and they have money tied up in engineering, and CNC/etc equiptment, but there is just no reason to ask $16,000.00 for an AR10 variant. I wonder what the government is paying for them.
I don't see how they could be paying anywhere near that much. Otherwise, they'd switch to Armalite or another 7.62 SASS..

[tuff]

I will take the time to buy the best that I can afford, if that means saving up change for a while to buy the right gear, well thats what I will do, while on the range or at work, I just cannot simply afford a failue...

The Rock climbing analogy works great for how I feel, Spend 100.00 on good carabiners or you can go and spend 1.00 on them at Home depo...its your life not mine...

[Gutshot John]

No I absolutely think the rock climbing analogy is great.

Any gear your life depends on you should spend the money on. So things like mounts, barrels, bolts, mags and ammo especially you shouldn't scrimp on.

I guess the question is, does a VFG fall into that category? What happens when one fails?

[rob_s]

I guess the question is, does a VFG fall into that category? What happens when one fails?
That depends.

Kyle Lamb talks about using it to help hold on when riding in/on a helicopter. I'd say that if it fails in that situation the consequences could be pretty dire.

With that out of the way, have you ever been on the range and seen what happens to a shooter when something unexpected happens? Whether it be the sight falling off, or a malfunction, or whatever, most shooters just stop dead in their tracks. Now imagine you're hanging on to that VFG for dear life, pulling the gun into the pocket, and firing at those three dudes in ski masks that just appeared in your hallway at 3 AM?

To quote Pat Rogers, "just as good as, isn't".

[Gutshot John]

With that out of the way, have you ever been on the range and seen what happens to a shooter when something unexpected happens? Whether it be the sight falling off, or a malfunction, or whatever, most shooters just stop dead in their tracks.

That's good training...too bad they don't take advantage of the chaos and take the opportunity to learn something.

You raise a very good point though. Something can go wrong and what will the reaction be when it does. Does that instead argue that a simpler, less expensive weapon has less things that can possibly go wrong?

Really I'm just trying to get a thought process to make up my own mind.

[tuff]

I guess the question is, does a VFG fall into that category? What happens when one fails?

IF you train and work with on on your weapon on a weekly basis SPEND the money on one that will be of good construction and last through the tuff times. And another important issue is customer service, if something does go wrong, it will be delt with quickly and painless...I recently added another VFG to my pile..Paid over 90.00 for it and it fills three specific rolls ..as a short VFG in the summer, change out cap and I have a flaired cap for winter times , or just a standard cap its all about preference...

IF you train with one, then when it fails and its not there it will affect you, directly or indirectly...




If you train without one, then this is a moot point

[Failure2Stop]

You raise a very good point though. Something can go wrong and what will the reaction be when it does. Does that instead argue that a simpler, less expensive weapon has less things that can possibly go wrong?


It depends on how likely and how severe the incident will be.
Let's take non-tested bolts for example. The probability of them failing is higher than those that are not. If they break, your gun stops working. If you are on a range, it is inconvienent. If you are in a close-range gunfight, you increase your probably of getting shot.
So the failure itself may not be the issue, it can simply be the interruption of your action/reaction long enough to crash your OODA loop.

The allure of simplicity strikes us all at some point. But it still comes down to need. If you don't NEED a flashlight, it doesn't matter if you take it off, it just won't provide light you don't need whether it is on, off, or broken. However, I need a light. I need a good light that throws a lot of light and can take abuse. If my light goes down, I will put someone else's (and my own) life in jeopardy. Sure, my Aimpoint can go down whereas my irons will always work, but the optic is simply better to a significant enough degree to be invaluable, for reasons that have been discussed endlessly elsewhere. And I need my VFG to properly interface with all the crap I have stuck to my HG and be able to shoot hard and fast. If my VFG goes tits-up on me, I cannot use my weapon to the capacity that I am expected and required to.

Refinement seeks simplicity, but not through the loss of capability. You do not become a better boxer by only throwing straight rights. Would you drive a car without headlights? Without a windshield? Without a speedometer? Then why expect a firearm to perform in your hands in the same conditions?

[Robb Jensen]

I'm of the opinion "buy good, buy once".

[rob_s]

You raise a very good point though. Something can go wrong and what will the reaction be when it does. Does that instead argue that a simpler, less expensive weapon has less things that can possibly go wrong?

This isn't the same thing you asked in your first post. There is a difference between buying a Bushmaster and bolting $400 worth of Crapco to it and buying a Colt 6920 and running it stock.

IF you are on a limited budget, the first priority should be to get a functional, reliable base weapon that YOU can have confidence in. If you're comfortable letting your life (or even you match for that matter) rest on an Oly Plinker, then by all means go buy an Oly Plinker. If that means you need to build one from scratch so that you know every single piece, part, and screw and that it's assembled correctly then do that. Do what YOU need to do to have a weapon that you are absolutely 100% certain you can depend on.

If I had only a limited budget, I'd buy the absolute best base weapon I could buy, and the first thing I'd do is add a light to it. If I was really strapped (and had no self-discipline) and couldn't come up with the lump sum all at once, I'd buy an LMT upper, lower, BCG, rear sight, handguards, charging handle and sling as funds became available. Then ammo and 10 mags, Kyle Lamb's book, dryfire practice at home to get the weapon manipulations down and target shooting to get the basic trigger control. The next funds that were available would go into a Randy Cain or Louis Awerbuck carbine class. Then I'd buy a short piece of rail and install it on the handguards in order to mount a Surefire X300 (buy the light and rail first if the class you're attending will have a night shoot).

so...
LMT Lower $330
LMT upper $485 (many dealers will throw in handguards and charging handle)
LMT BCG $130
Larue rear sight $90
$1035 for a complete weapon

10 Pmags $150
1k rounds $300-$450 (depending on quality)
$500 to feed it

Class $500
Travel/Lodging for class $500
$1000 for training

Rail $25
X300 $200
$225 to put a light on the gun

Later you can add an Aimpoint C3 in a Larue mount for $450
Now you've sunk $3k+ into the thing but you can finally say that you know how to shoot it as well instead of just being able to post pictures of it on the internet. Which, of course, is not to say that you should do any of this if posting pictures on the internet is your ultimate goal.

Conversely, you could buy the Bushmaster for $1k, spend the same $500 on mags & ammo that you'll need anyway, but instead of spending $1k on training you can spend $500 on bolt-on garbage. It usually breaks down something like this
YHM Rail $100
CAA stock $95 (yeah, big savings there over the $90 CTR :rolleyes: )
POS light from a gunshow $50
CAA VFG $30
You're already to $275, which is more than half of the tuition for a good class, and NONE of that garbage is making you a better shooter.

[rob_s]

Incidentally, if your choice ever comes down to buying 3k rounds of ammo or buying 1k rounds and taking a quality training class, go with the ammo and the training.

[Gutshot John]

I totally agree on training. Most of my dollars go in that direction these days. In the last two years I've probably spent two dollars for training for every one dollar on firearms/gear.

I agree simplicity/breakage was a separate question, but you raised something that popped it into my head.

[R Moran]

I'm reminded of a thread on LightFighter a few years ago, when someone was complaining about the cost of good nylon from makers such as Eagle and SoTech.

Brad Nelsons, reply was " Can you make it?" I try to keep that in mind when I'm buying products or services.

Better is better, if you don't need that better, or can't use it, don't get it. But for those that do and can, whats the problem?

I'm also reminded of the time my friend called asking whats a good vfg, it seems his broke off when he was executing a break and rake, during a vehicle assault, due to the other equipment mounted on the gun, it caused him to have to adjust his grip, and use the weapon in a less efficient manner. Thankfully it was training, but it illustrates what can happen with lesser gear.

To quote Pat Rogers, "I don't aspire to mediocrity". I want the best I can afford, and sometimes can't afford.
Some people spend an insane amount of money on cars, golf clubs, "systems" for the car or home, computers, etc. On those types of items, I still try to get the best I can, and spend wisely, but I'm not as worried about my picture quality, as I am about my gear failing. It all depends on your perspective.

Rob and F2S, have both hit the nail on the head.
There is a difference between inexpensive and cheap.

Bob

[tuff]

All this talk of VFG's and what happens when one fails.... is'nt there a vid somewhere on youtube with a guy shooting a glock and the forward grip comes off and he sends a round through his hand.......