Direct impingement

[fasty77]

i want to know the inside scoop on this oprod/piston trend we are in

1. is it a temp fix for a flawed design
2. is the additional cost worth the documented improvement of the system
3. why not a complete redesign of a weapon system (does spare parts and existing inventory prohibit this)
4. if non-Direct impingement weapon is better how do you sort out the manufatures of the different systems as every one has thier best design

as an avid outdoors man and hunter i am looking at getting a new system
not that there is anything wrong with my rem 700 mod

here are my requirements
semi-auto
.308 cal ( i do not want to re-tool for other caliber )
sub moa Accuracy
all around durability and quality

i have looked at DPMS, armalite, rock river and found base retail rifles needing a little love before i get what i want

then on the other hand i have looked at JP's LRP-07
and LWRC's sabr (not sold yet)
and Noveske Rifleworks N6 18 inch heavy
and POF's contribution

i come from a family owned iso 9001 cert machine shop so you can spare me the needless details just cut it down to brass tacs

no matter how i cut it up i am spending between 2800 and 3200 for base rifle mag and iron sights

oh and i better mention that it needs to be American made


but back to my question ( to op-rod or to not op-rod is the question at hand)
some say it is still a flawed design do to the way the rod interacts with the carrier group

needing input as this cash is burning a hole in my pocket

thanks for all you comments and ideas

shawn

[gishooter]

Shawn

Call John at Noveske rifles, he broke it down for me the other day (gas piston vs DI). He is a great guy and makes great AMERICAN stuff. Pricey...yes but worth it, I have a DPMS LR308 but that will shoot 1/4 at 100yds but I still want Noveske's version. And yes my DPMS needed trigger work and a host of other things to get it shooting super smooth.

As far as a complete redesign, Magpul made the Masada (ACR) and their 308 is in the works still. The MAgpul Massoud. Here is a vid just google it and you will get tons of info. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNncD9q7u5E

My .02, Noveske all the way

[markm]

i want to know the inside scoop on this oprod/piston trend we are in

1. is it a temp fix for a flawed design

It's a temporary flawed mentality in the gun realm that DI is not adequate.

Millions of dollars are spent and made every year in gun gadgetry because the grass is greener on the other side.... This isn't unique to the AR platform or this piston nonsense... Handguns, optics, you name it.

[fasty77]

i had talked to john and that is what sparked this whole thread

i was going to go with the POF-USA 308 but after talking with him i changed my mind about DI issues, and i am going with my first plan

first choice N6 18" Heavy 7.62mm Rifle (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r18hn6&cat=55&page=1&search=&since=&status=)

or the JP LRP-07 (http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.5.php)

i have a good friend that shoots 3 gun and he loves his JP-15 (http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.2.php) and i have fired it, it is a sweet shoot'n rifle plus the jp guys do really stand behind their product
so i cant goo wrong with their 308 (i like the side non-recp-charging handle)

then the issues becomes either hammer forged polly barrel or button rifled cryo barrel

the noveske is forged polygonal and the JP is button cyro treated

any input on that ?

anyway optics will be a NF for long range (coming off my Rem 700 mod same cal. ) and a red-dot for scout
or JP's Combo (http://www.jprifles.com/1.6.2.php)

[ST911]

Most folks won't ever know the difference, as few shoot guns enough to matter. Those that will, may or may not find the merits of the piston of value.

It's worth exploring, but it's nothing to dump a current quality inventory over.

(I have the same regard for the mid-length gas system.)

[Tspeis]

then the issues becomes either hammer forged polly barrel or button rifled cryo barrel

the noveske is forged polygonal and the JP is button cyro treated

If I recall correctly, the only guns Noveske is currently shipping out with hammer forged barrels are the N4 series. I believe the 7.62mm platform is running a stainless barrel.

Of the choices you listed, I'd throw all of them out the window except Noveske. They put out top notch stuff. I'll be picking up a 5.56mm platform from them shortly.

As for the piston operated guns, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a TEMPORARY fix. Anyone here who thinks the US military will EVER adopt another DI operated platform is kidding themselves. If you wanted an accurate, reliable, piston operated 7.62, I'd say wait for the HK417 to be released commercially. However, since there's no telling when that's going to happen, it's not a viable option at the moment. I have heard that the 417's, even in the 12.5" configuration, are supposedly putting some scary tight groups downrange.


Tspeis

[Razorhunter]

fasty77,
You have made the BEST choice possible bro. You will now be the owner of one of the HIGHEST quality AR10's available. PERIOD.
The only other options that are in the same class as the Noveske 7.62mm, are the GAP 7.62mm customs (which are pretty much the same, only built by another guy), and the KAC M110, or SR25 variants. At $6000.00 - $16,000.00, you don't want a KAC 7.62mm rifle anyway. (YES, I said $16,000.00)
Hope you enjoy it, and let us know how your 7.62mm project turns out.

I too am just beginning a 7.62mm AR10, and I'm using the same receivers that Noveske uses (Armalite AR10A4). I have the complete lower, and only need to swap the "TACTICAL" two stage trigger out for the "NM" two stage trigger. I can do that anytime down the road though.
As for my Armalite upper, I will be sending it off to Jeff at GAP, to have a SUPER HIGH quality bbl installed, along with a few other things done.
This things going to be a tackdriver for sure, and I cannot wait.
My only issue is the GLASS/Optic. I simply don't have the funds right now for the glass I need, and so I am probably going to be limited to a Leupold or something int he $700 range. Unfortunately, that will not be possible right away either.
At least I've got something to look forward to. Looks like it's time to have another yard sale soon.

[Btrain]

Unfortunately, that will not be possible right away either.
At least I've got something to look forward to. Looks like it's time to have another yard sale soon.




When I got my GAP, I had to hire my stud services out to models and stewardesses.



Raising that kind of scratch 1 dollar at a time suuure was tiring :)

[fasty77]

sorry to hear you got all wore out getting your new GAP

i am spending uncle sam's money

[Perryguy]

For accuracy, it seems from what I have read that DI is the better choice. Also, take apart an M1A some day and see the size of the parts, what passes for an op rod in the current choices looks like a toothpick in comparison. Seems like more things to go wrong. My two cents.

[deltaARman]

I agree with perry the new piston ars do look like tooth picks. And I would just like to put my two cents in as far as direct empingement and piston ars. Does anyone have a problem with jams or miss fires with there ars? The only reason you need a piston ar is:
1.suppressed fire
2.full auto
3.and there is a third can't think of it right now.

And I think LWRC has started shipping the sabr not for sure might be a rumor:confused:

[Razorhunter]

#3 is usually deemed as SBRs

-and btw, where did you hear the SABR might be shipping? All I can say is it's about time. Not that I'll be purchasing one though. They first told us all that they were planning on coming in under the price of an SR25 (which was about $2500-$3000 at the time.)
NOW I've been told they're wanting $3500 which is insane.

[deltaARman]

Well I was at the gun store today and the guy had gotten in some of the new Barrett 6.8 piston guns and I heard him talking about LWRC's SABR possibly start being shipped first of July. I has kinda fishin' to see if anyone else had heard anything, thats why I said it might be a rumor. sorry if I got your hopes up.

[Razorhunter]

Oh dont' worry bud,
You didn't get my hopes up. I know damn well not to get my hopes up about ANYTHING being promised from LWRC.
As I said before, their $3500 price tag is freaking insane....

[Razorhunter]

CLINT,
You need to stop posting your stupid link all over this site in different threads. That's a good way to get banned. 3 posts and you've already f'd up...

[Littlelebowski]

Clearly not a reputable company.::

[usmc51]

As I came late to this party, but did not see that a final decision had been made, I thought I'd throw out a little more. As for the piston vs. direct impingement, go with what makes you feel warm inside, because that is the difference I have noticed in the two systems. While I was in Iraq, I carried an HK416, as did my peers. Not a one of us would have felt shorted had we still had M4A1s, though everyone we came across who talked to us and carried an M4/M16 felt they had been issued an inferior weapon system. I don't subscribe to that belief, as I spent a lot of quality time earlier in my career with M16s and M4s and the only consistent problems I ever had with them were the same problems I had with the HK416: bad magazines. I had more bad HK "high-reliability" magazines issued to me than plain aluminum ones; thus, I will never lug the extra weight of the HK steel ones, again. Outside of work, I own three personal ARs, with a fourth on the way, all of which are direct impingement gas system rifles. I have two Colts, which are of moderate assembly quality (just my opinion of the two I have), a .308 Fulton Armory Titan, which is one of the finest feeling rifles I have ever held, with an amazing "standard" trigger, and now a JP Enterprises JP-15 on order. I looked at the POF piston-driven .308, which cost significantly more, but some of my coworkers had evaluated the POF .223 rifles for the Army and had not found them to their liking, primarily due to the unusual recoil impulse. Customer service was poor from POF in my dealings. But, never having seen a Fulton Armory Titan in person, I took the chance and ordered one, for which I have not regretted (customer service was also outstanding, which is a recurring theme in my interaction with companies). If that doesn't help, consider that my .308 with a DI system, and capable of accuracy better than I, was under $2k shipped without backup sights. I also tend to put suppressors on my ARs, and prefer the DI with a suppressor to the piston, as it sounds quieter to my ears. The accuracy of the HK416 and HK417 is not, in my opinion, attributable to its operating system, as I have shot other, commercial, piston rifles and not found them as accurate as DI rifles of the same manufacture. The 416 is quite accurate, but it also has an extremely heavy profiled barrel for its length, whereas commercial companies, like JP, are making very accurate and reliable DI rifles often with lightweight contoured barrels. I would rather carry a standard 14.5" M4A1 over a 10.4" HK416 when it comes to weight up front.

[fasty77]

most of the posts have been informative.
in the mean time i got a WOA (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/) service rifle upper second hand, and put it on a parts kit dpms lower standard A2 stock and nice 2 stage match trigger
i just got the ARMS #39 so i can switch between open iron for matches and nice super sniper SS10X42M for the little critters (prairie dogs)
i would like to get a eotech (maybe for Christmas)

some would say get a flat top receiver but it kills the extras in this upper
the irons have like two post that stabilize rear sight rotation while dialing in elevation. In match that is a nice feature with small sight apertures.

plus i can say first hand that ARMS mount holds a very tight zero on and off
its two point mount makes it tough to beat
so far the worst was a 2 inch at 100
and after i took it off and wiped out the carry handle and re-attached it back to 1 in at 100 and i can deal with that for on and off. that is a easy dial in

the only complaints i have are due too the type of rifle it is, heavy match barrel and extra weight of float tube, i love it at match but in the field it is a little heavy

but like my father tells me, "when i was your age i was carrying a m14 all day long"