View Full Version : Black Hills tipped SMK's 77 and 175
gamewarden
01-16-14, 09:48
Wow! I really like the claims...I hope they are correct. Have any of you got your hands on either of these? Any info will be greatly appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofhSLVdk_ik
I'd love to try both of those bullets. NOT in BH's loading, but as a component. 2 MOA at 1000m? That's an impressive gain.
gamewarden
01-18-14, 18:32
Well I'm in line for 2 cases of the 175 grain tipped SMK in .308...I think they said 2nd quarter (can't remember now). Can't wait to compare it to Federal GMM 175 grain SMK in .308 and Federal GMM 175 grain SMK in 7.62x51 (Mk316).
I have a range that goes out to 1400 meters...so i will be able to stretch its legs...however its a waiting game at this point.
Sounds like it's a Black Hills specific bullet. I hope they get offered as a component by Sierra. I would think it could happen since a polymer tip isn't a exactly a new development but it may be like the 50 gr Barnes bullet in 5.56 that was built to BH specs and is controlled by them. I guess it all comes down to whatever agreement BH and Sierra have (yeah I know, duh).
1slow01Z71
01-24-14, 16:03
So sierra made an amax, good for them :sarcastic:
So sierra made an amax, good for them :sarcastic:
Not really. I expect them to be more expensive than the AMAX, but the .224 has a lower BC and the .308 a much higher BC. More importantly the 77gr tipped SMK will fit in an AR mag, the 75 AMAX won't really do that. The TSMK 175 has a higher BC than the Hornady 178 BTHP or the 175 Berger OTM.
All in all, good developments.
1slow01Z71
01-24-14, 17:04
My comment was more in jest as sierra has always been a BTHP company obviously and are now getting into the 21st century with tipped bullets. Id be real interested to see if their BCs hash out in the real world. That's an awful lot of improvement over comparable amax bullets. I just don't see how they could gain .04 over the 178. FWIW the 75gr amax shoots fine when used in a PRI or other extended COL mag, I know not apples to apples though. If the 77gr is offered as components and comes in close to the amax or 77gr BTHP lines itll be a winner for sure.
eightmillimeter
01-25-14, 13:29
Sounds like it's a Black Hills specific bullet. I hope they get offered as a component by Sierra. I would think it could happen since a polymer tip isn't a exactly a new development but it may be like the 50 gr Barnes bullet in 5.56 that was built to BH specs and is controlled by them. I guess it all comes down to whatever agreement BH and Sierra have (yeah I know, duh).
If we scream loud enough, Sierra will make it. Time to start sending emails again...
Pappabear suggested we buy some and pull the bullets to see if we can make good ammo with them.
For the very few that play extensively at 800-1000yds with 18" or less 5.56/.308 ARs...these two new loads are close to being "game changing".
Mark, did you notice that the new tipped 77gr. SMK now has the same BC as the 80gr. SMKs? For that reason alone me, you, and Pappabear should love these new loads.......even if you have to buy them from your nemesis, Blackhills :)
1slow01Z71
01-25-14, 21:10
Guess I don't understand what the huge deal is with the 77gr, if you want a badass mag length bullet, its been out for a while
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/847686/berger-target-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-805-grain-fullbore-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-100
Higher BC than these tipped sierras and heavier. I doubt the tipped sierras will be cheaper since 77gr SMKs already run 31/100 so if max BC is the game the berger outruns them handily. I just don't like shooting that expensive of a bullet when the 75gr amax does almost as well for half the price. If I really have a need stretch out further than the 75s will then Ive got other rifles with more horsepower.
I think its great we are getting more options to play with as Im an eternal tinkerer but Im trying to understand the big deal about the 77gr bullets since there are other options available that are better. Now the 175s, that's something to get excited about IF the BC is true. I remain skeptical until they get in the hands of third party shooters who have the means to assess the accuracy of the claimed BC. Its just really hard for me to see how they've got a better BC than the 178 amaxs by that much. .04 is an insane gain at that level of performance without gaining more weight.
If you really want the pinnacle in long range 308 performance its already made as well
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/426497/berger-target-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-185-grain-vld-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-100
but is relatively expensive and Id imagine these tipped SMKs should they be offered as components will be a bit cheaper than them.
For the very few that play extensively at 800-1000yds with 18" or less 5.56/.308 ARs...these two new loads are close to being "game changing".
Mark, did you notice that the new tipped 77gr. SMK now has the same BC as the 80gr. SMKs? For that reason alone me, you, and Pappabear should love these new loads.......even if you have to buy them from your nemesis, Blackhills :)
I thought we could do a couple boxes for the F..K of it. Even try 5 in the company load. Also, we could weigh the charge for consistency. Im sure when they start selling these, we will try a big box or two. Hard to beat SMK's. AMAX and SMK are our staple of accuracy loads. Mark cooked some SS109's, these little 62 grainers were not tumbling at 1,000 yards, but the 2-3 moa made hits really difficult to make hits out of the 16inch gas gun. I danced around the target for about 10 rounds, it was worth a good laugh.
What were we Mark? 16.5 moa? When they tumble, they OPEN up by the yards.
The other claim made was better terminal performance. The 77SMK suffers from inconsistent terminal performance (which is well documented). Those who study/test these bullets, say that the SMK performs this way due to an inconsistent/small meplat. According to a post I read from Gary Roberts, when the hollow point was trimmed/opened up just a bit(a very small amount), there was a dramatic difference in consistency WRT terminal performance. If this has been addressed it's another point in worth considering. For those that are shooting these at long range it wouldn't matter but for people using them as a CQB load, I think it's good news. Time and testing will tell.
My comment was more in jest as sierra has always been a BTHP company obviously and are now getting into the 21st century with tipped bullets. Id be real interested to see if their BCs hash out in the real world. That's an awful lot of improvement over comparable amax bullets. I just don't see how they could gain .04 over the 178. FWIW the 75gr amax shoots fine when used in a PRI or other extended COL mag, I know not apples to apples though. If the 77gr is offered as components and comes in close to the amax or 77gr BTHP lines itll be a winner for sure.
I don't think you're very familiar with their product lines. They've been making tipped, and other types for a long time.
1slow01Z71
01-26-14, 19:11
I don't think you're very familiar with their product lines. They've been making tipped, and other types for a long time.
Im familiar with their blitzking line that doesn't have the BC of comparable tipped bullets and isn't made in the heavier weight for caliber bullets or anything over 6mm. Theyre mainly known for the BTHP bullets, I don't know of anyone who shoots their other lines when cheaper options from nosler and hornady are available. The gameking is the only other bullet I see people use besides the SMK. If you want to split hairs that's fine but you and I both know Sierra is mainly known for their match king and theyre just now adding a polymer tip to their long range line where BC really counts. Thus my comment about getting into the 21st century. Its a good thing. If the 175s are as good as theyre saying it will be a game changer and berger is really going to take a hit on their 185 sales.
The 80gr berger FHPBT is a "mag length" bullet?
How so?
This has peeked my interest.
Thanks.
Guess I don't understand what the huge deal is with the 77gr, if you want a badass mag length bullet, its been out for a while
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/847686/berger-target-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-805-grain-fullbore-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-100
Higher BC than these tipped sierras and heavier. I doubt the tipped sierras will be cheaper since 77gr SMKs already run 31/100 so if max BC is the game the berger outruns them handily. I just don't like shooting that expensive of a bullet when the 75gr amax does almost as well for half the price. If I really have a need stretch out further than the 75s will then Ive got other rifles with more horsepower.
I think its great we are getting more options to play with as Im an eternal tinkerer but Im trying to understand the big deal about the 77gr bullets since there are other options available that are better. Now the 175s, that's something to get excited about IF the BC is true. I remain skeptical until they get in the hands of third party shooters who have the means to assess the accuracy of the claimed BC. Its just really hard for me to see how they've got a better BC than the 178 amaxs by that much. .04 is an insane gain at that level of performance without gaining more weight.
If you really want the pinnacle in long range 308 performance its already made as well
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/426497/berger-target-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-185-grain-vld-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-100
but is relatively expensive and Id imagine these tipped SMKs should they be offered as components will be a bit cheaper than them.
1slow01Z71
01-28-14, 19:23
The 80gr berger FHPBT is a "mag length" bullet?
How so?
This has peeked my interest.
Thanks.
It was designed to keep the ogive above the case mouth when loaded to mag length.
Sweet!
Did not know that!
Thanks.
It was designed to keep the ogive above the case mouth when loaded to mag length.
1slow01Z71
01-29-14, 00:21
Berger lists COL as 2.20 but Ive just loaded them to 2.25 like all my other long HP tipped bullets. I like them well enough but have been happy with 75gr amaxs out of PRI mags for my long range work and cheap when bought in the 600 round packs.
gamewarden
04-30-14, 13:13
Just got 2 cases of the 175 Tipped SMK's. I'm not a reloader but talking to an industry expert the TSMK's ogive isn't as fat as the original 175 SMK's...they didn't just add a tip.
looking to shoot ASAP if it ever stops snowing!
Snowing? It's 89 degrees here. Send me that ammo! :sarcastic:
I want to get some of these bullets and do a head to head at 1000 yards and net the "come up" savings. Judging by your experts comments... I'm thinking they may be like an AMAX bullet.
Snowing? It's 89 degrees here. Send me that ammo! :sarcastic:
I want to get some of these bullets and do a head to head at 1000 yards and net the "come up" savings. Judging by your experts comments... I'm thinking they may be like an AMAX bullet.
That was my first thought, that with the different ogive they were more like the AMAX and had a better b/c by going that way. But, I thought it was always the ogive of the OTM 77gr. SMKs that made them so accurate in a wide variety of guns.
Could be a hybrid maybe. I'm not even sure what AMAX's ogive is. It hasn't been depth sensative for us. 178s shoot great at mag length is factory barrels with long leades... but the shape looks VLDish.
I've been living under a rock and just in the last few days found out about these BHA tipped SMK loads.
Anybody gotten some BHA 77s TMKs yet? I've struck out online finding some to order; very curious to try some.
Southwest Ammo has posted on the Hide that perhaps the TMKs will be available as components to everybody sometime in 2015.
I haven't seen them anywhere yet.
vicious_cb
10-14-14, 02:16
I haven't seen them anywhere yet.
Looks like they are finally starting to trickle out to dealers. Good luck getting your hands on them, supposedly they sell out within a few hours of being in stock.
Charge weight is ~25grs with laquer sealed primers but no sealant on the bullet and as usual from sierra, a very light cannalure.
Some info:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/433805ee-7644-4a6c-abbc-d45c8dbba424_zps19c2b983.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/leid/media/Ammo/433805ee-7644-4a6c-abbc-d45c8dbba424_zps19c2b983.jpg.html)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/Ammo/cc78457e-cf31-432b-8c20-032fa3822966_zps18d4b9ac.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/leid/media/Ammo/cc78457e-cf31-432b-8c20-032fa3822966_zps18d4b9ac.jpg.html)
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/roadhunter_bucket/IMG_0002_zps2378abfd.jpg (http://s718.photobucket.com/user/roadhunter_bucket/media/IMG_0002_zps2378abfd.jpg.html)
Range report. > http://ar15hunter.com/range-report-black-hills-5-56mm-77gr-tmk/
He could only get .81" out of the load. I bet the bullet is more accurate than that in a quality load. No reference to what his gun is capable with when firing other ammo.
In stock: https://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-77gr-TMK.html
The pics in that review show that they don't have too much crimp on the round. It would be feasible to pull these down. The idea of paying over a buck per round to do this is a little repulsive however.
The pics in that review show that they don't have too much crimp on the round. It would be feasible to pull these down. The idea of paying over a buck per round to do this is a little repulsive however.
The few rounds of Mk262 I have doesn't appear to have much of a crimp on them either. I pulled one down a while back for shyts and giggles. It had ~26.5gr of ball powder (puke) in it. :eek:
I ordered a box of the TMK's. I'll see about posting some pics, reviewing, etc.
I ordered a box of the TMK's. I'll see about posting some pics, reviewing, etc.
Cool. It'll be nice to get an objective (non-fanboy) review.
I am interested in the results as well. The test referenced above does not seem to indicate that there is an improvement over the OTM, but perhaps a custom load will deliver better accuracy.
I am interested in the results as well. The test referenced above does not seem to indicate that there is an improvement over the OTM, but perhaps a custom load will deliver better accuracy.
The improvement, would be on long range shooting. With a Higher BC bullet, it should shoot a little flatter and buck the wind a little better. There's not much room for accuracy improvement on the 77 gr SMK.
Sierraeight
10-28-14, 11:07
All,
My name is Jeff Hoffman. My wife and I own Black Hills Ammunition. I have something to get off my chest. This site has a great deal of knowledge on it, however I note that there is also a distinct tendency to negativity for the sake of self-aggrandizement, rather than a desire to spread information and solve problems. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if the goal in berating vendors as universally greedy and incompetent oafs who scum up your pond is simply to make the poster feel good about himself, I think you need to reevaluate whom it is that requires fan boys.
Kristi and I have invested over 30 years of our lives into the goal of producing the best ammunition value possible. We have developed over 10 different NSNs for the US military. I mention that as one example of something that is not possible to do without innovation, quality and attention to detail. Our attitude is to make ammunition as good as it can be, and treat everyone fairly. This includes customers, vendors and even competitors. We guarantee customer satisfaction. If a customer even buys a case of ammunition and decides for any reason he doesn’t like it, we take it back and refund his money. If a customer (anyone with Black Hills Ammunition, whether he bought it from us or even from a dealer 20 years ago) has a concern or needs advice we take the time to assist him any way we can. (And yes, we have on several occasions, replaced ammunition purchased over 20 years ago.)
I mostly just watch, but am ready if someone actually has a question or a concern. If someone is just bitching, with no goal of solving anything, you probably aren’t going to hear anything from me. If my position stated here is offensive to the members of this forum, I will excuse myself and you won’t hear squat from me here again. Thanks for the opportunity offered to me so far to participate in your forum. Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition.
Digital_Damage
10-28-14, 11:57
All,
My name is Jeff Hoffman. My wife and I own Black Hills Ammunition. I have something to get off my chest. This site has a great deal of knowledge on it, however I note that there is also a distinct tendency to negativity for the sake of self-aggrandizement, rather than a desire to spread information and solve problems. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if the goal in berating vendors as universally greedy and incompetent oafs who scum up your pond is simply to make the poster feel good about himself, I think you need to reevaluate whom it is that requires fan boys.
Kristi and I have invested over 30 years of our lives into the goal of producing the best ammunition value possible. We have developed over 10 different NSNs for the US military. I mention that as one example of something that is not possible to do without innovation, quality and attention to detail. Our attitude is to make ammunition as good as it can be, and treat everyone fairly. This includes customers, vendors and even competitors. We guarantee customer satisfaction. If a customer even buys a case of ammunition and decides for any reason he doesn’t like it, we take it back and refund his money. If a customer (anyone with Black Hills Ammunition, whether he bought it from us or even from a dealer 20 years ago) has a concern or needs advice we take the time to assist him any way we can. (And yes, we have on several occasions, replaced ammunition purchased over 20 years ago.)
I mostly just watch, but am ready if someone actually has a question or a concern. If someone is just bitching, with no goal of solving anything, you probably aren’t going to hear anything from me. If my position stated here is offensive to the members of this forum, I will excuse myself and you won’t hear squat from me here again. Thanks for the opportunity offered to me so far to participate in your forum. Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition.
I must have missed something that warranted this response. I think most have responded to the announcement with genuine curiosity and optimistic expectations. My only gripe is I can't buy the bullets to reload :(
I think we simply have a handful of handloaders who'd like to shoot this bullet in their/our own processes. Many of us do NOT want to burn ball powder in our barrels.
At no point do think Black Hills has ever made false claims or anything along those lines... And Black Hills ammo is clearly better than most commonly available stuff.
All that said.... I've quantified all of my complaints with BH ammo over the years. I've measured everything I'm capable with the instrumentation I have, including: Weighing cases, measuring bullet runout, measuring case length, and general characteristics of brass cases used... primer pocket serviceability, etc.
I've found not one thing that I've measured to be acceptable for a "match"/Target load. I do keep in mind that mass producing ammo at the level I like is probably cost prohibitive. If it were easy or cost effective to do, none of us would handload.
My only gripe is I can't buy the bullets to reload :(
I look at it no different than some of the bonded bullets that are in factory loads... The first thing that us control freaks will ask is.... "can I get the bullet component"?
vicious_cb
10-28-14, 15:45
All,
My name is Jeff Hoffman. My wife and I own Black Hills Ammunition. I have something to get off my chest. This site has a great deal of knowledge on it, however I note that there is also a distinct tendency to negativity for the sake of self-aggrandizement, rather than a desire to spread information and solve problems. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if the goal in berating vendors as universally greedy and incompetent oafs who scum up your pond is simply to make the poster feel good about himself, I think you need to reevaluate whom it is that requires fan boys.
Kristi and I have invested over 30 years of our lives into the goal of producing the best ammunition value possible. We have developed over 10 different NSNs for the US military. I mention that as one example of something that is not possible to do without innovation, quality and attention to detail. Our attitude is to make ammunition as good as it can be, and treat everyone fairly. This includes customers, vendors and even competitors. We guarantee customer satisfaction. If a customer even buys a case of ammunition and decides for any reason he doesn’t like it, we take it back and refund his money. If a customer (anyone with Black Hills Ammunition, whether he bought it from us or even from a dealer 20 years ago) has a concern or needs advice we take the time to assist him any way we can. (And yes, we have on several occasions, replaced ammunition purchased over 20 years ago.)
I mostly just watch, but am ready if someone actually has a question or a concern. If someone is just bitching, with no goal of solving anything, you probably aren’t going to hear anything from me. If my position stated here is offensive to the members of this forum, I will excuse myself and you won’t hear squat from me here again. Thanks for the opportunity offered to me so far to participate in your forum. Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition.
Jeff there is only 1 guy in this thread that has a problem with your ammo, unfortunately he's also the loudest and generally hates everything. Posts like this are the reason I continue to purchase from your company. While I dont shoot at the ragged edge of the effective range of 5.56 the terminal ballistics of the bullet alone has me excited.
Ive been looking for a quality 5.56 pressured round that rivals the quality of hornady 5.56 TAP T2 as I do prefer the "OTM" type fragmenting rounds. Ive used your .223 75gr load in my self defense mags for years, and while hornady 5.56 TAP T2 fits my needs better their hate towards the civilian market alone makes me steer clear of them while you guys made mk262 available to the public. That alone will keep me as a loyal customer for years to come.
Jeff there is only 1 guy in this thread that has a problem with your ammo, unfortunately he's also the loudest and generally hates everything. Posts like this are the reason I continue to purchase from your company.
I don't generally hate everything. And I don't have any issue with Black Hills the company since they make no false claims. The only time I'll go off on a company is when they outright lie or falsely fluff their product with fake user accounts.
I simply stated quantifiable facts about the ammo. I have ZERO emotional stake or personal contact with anyone related to Black Hills. I've made clear cut, factual measurements and posted NOTHING but facts. Black Hills ammo is certainly a premium to shooting Ball/XM type ammos. And not everyone requires the kind of ammo I like to shoot.
Where I get irritated is when you have people who know dog balls about good ammo blindly recommending products based on God knows what. If you chose to buy a product based on internut posts, so be it. That is absolutely your choice.
vicious_cb
10-28-14, 16:58
I don't generally hate everything. And I don't have any issue with Black Hills the company since they make no false claims. The only time I'll go off on a company is when they outright lie or falsely fluff their product with fake user accounts.
I simply stated quantifiable facts about the ammo. I have ZERO emotional stake or personal contact with anyone related to Black Hills. I've made clear cut, factual measurements and posted NOTHING but facts. Black Hills ammo is certainly a premium to shooting Ball/XM type ammos. And not everyone requires the kind of ammo I like to shoot.
Where I get irritated is when you have people who know dog balls about good ammo blindly recommending products based on God knows what. If you chose to buy a product based on internut posts, so be it. That is absolutely your choice.
If you dont hate black hills products then why do always have some snide comment about their poor accuracy or about them actually producing good ammo for once whenever their ammo is mentioned. Sure sounds like hate to me. Take me for example, I absolutely HATE hornady's business practices but they actually produce good ammo and I make that very clear every time hornady ammo is mentioned. Sorry but I dont see hornady's owner around the forums. I guess they are too busy trying to hunt down civilians who bought their LEO red box ammo.
I get it mark, you are a character. Always got some funny remark to say, thats cool but understand that it does reflect poorly on the members of the forum, funny how perception works. Notice how Jeff thinks a majority of the forum thinks his ammo is garbage because a few loud members drop some snide remarks.
If you dont hate black hills products then why do always have some snide comment about their poor accuracy or about them actually producing good ammo for once whenever their ammo is mentioned. Sure sounds like hate to me.
I don't think I've ever dinged BH on accuracy... as far as I can remember. With good bullet selection like SMKs.... it's almost like... if you can get the bullet to exit the barrel, you can't screw it up. That's an exaggeration of course, but the point is you have to really go above and beyond to mess up an SMKs performance.
It's the quality of the assembly and some of the components where I've not found great things in BH. I'm not critical of a load to be a character. It's based on facts and first hand experience.
Sierraeight
10-29-14, 14:26
Mark,
If you have any quality concerns with Black Hills Ammunition I welcome a call from you so I can do my best to satisfy your concerns. I honestly solicit user input. 800-568-6625. I am in this afternoon, I am out all day tomorrow. If anyone else has an honest question about anything I might have knowledge of, I am eager to assist. I don't mind answering questions to assist with an understanding about ammunition. That is my understanding of what forums are actually about. Whether it is the merits of ball powder vs extruded, bullet section and performance, pressure measurements, internal, external, or terminal ballistics, or long range shooting. I offer my assistance. I will participate in respectful discussions, but believe public pissing matches are unproductive and unconstructive. If this forum exists for the former, I am excited to be a part of it. If it is a venue that continues to tolerate hate towards honest companies as I have seen repeatedly occur, I will move along. Thank you, Jeff Hoffman
M4C welcomes critical analyses and thoughtful contemplations of product performance. Wherever possible, it should be supported by data, photos, or at least useful information. Sniping, thinly veiled or openly, is not acceptable. This is especially true in situations like we have here in this thread, where the owner of the company in question has placed himself at member's disposal for discussion of issues or reconciliation of information. And while all members here have a voice, M4C's vendors, industry professionals, and SMEs help keep our technically-focused center and are due their regard.
Fortunately this problem is usually narrow in scope, not widespread so this is a courtesy reminder to most. Thanks.
Leaveammoforme
10-29-14, 22:51
I can't speak for Mark, but I think he was getting at the fact that hand loads tuned for a particular gun will out perform factory ammo (regardless of brand). The difference ,to me, lies in the fact that factory ammo has to work in everything from a Hesse to a KAC. Premium ammo is also expected to be accurate, cleanish, pretty and consistent. Black Hills has mastered this. I don't know if you (generalization) have ever watched automated loading equipment in person. I have and it blew my mind that any good came out of it. I reload and am also supplied ammo (not BH). I can't justify comparing my reloads to my supplied ammo like Mark was. If I sold my reloads I would have to charge $10 a round for 223 for my time. Would my reloads that cost me "$10" each shoot better than factory ammo? Of course they would. I don't feel I'm being very clear on what I am trying to convey.
I think Mark was wrong to compare his hand loads to factory ammo on a forum where his name (agree or not) carries some weight. I also think someone should have confronted him about comparing hand loads to factory ammo before this got out of hand. I hope he isn't gone for good because he does know a few things.
Jeff,
I have always held your ammo to a higher standard and I feel it delivers. I shoot your $125 338 Lapua loads and then reload the brass. I have been very impressed with the love that you put in them. I have been under the impression that you guys hand load them. Is that correct? Any word on some tipped SMK's in the 300 range for the Lapua? That would be super sweet.
vicious_cb
10-29-14, 23:12
TMK compared to some other popular defensive ammo choices. Taken from the black hills blog. I would sure like to know what kind of velocity they are getting from 16" and 14.5" barrels.
http://i.imgur.com/q6zjwnA.jpg?1
I am another member that has complained about black hills ammunition. I think that black hills is a great company, I also beleived them to be a great company even when I had my problems. I had problems with some ammunition, I called black hills just to notify them of the problem. I was not expecting anything they sent me 2 new boxes of ammunition. When what I have problems with equaled about 4 rounds. I had problems with some mk262 white box, and some 50 tsx red box. They sent me 2 new boxes of red box mk262. It would have been nice to get one box of each that I had problems with, but what they offered went above and beyond what I expected. The only reason I called them is from seeing Mr. Hoffman on the forums, showing a genuine interest in making his product the best it could be.
The problems I have had with past lots of ammo was runout. I lost the hard drive on my reloading computer a while back so I dont have the exact numbers. Let me be clear they were not what I would like to see from ammo that costs what it does from black hills, but they were not more than .007 IIRC. I like to see .003, and below in my loads. I feel .005, and below is acceptable for match ammo. I have measured much worse than black hills, I hold black hils to a higher standard (which probably is not fair) than other companies. There reputation, and willingness to do what it takes to get our soldiers what they need is the driving force behind the higher standard. There is one other thing I need to be clear about the ammunition with the run out shot better than I am capable of, and if it did not I now know black hills would take care of me without question. The ammo they replaced for me was close to 5 years old, and was nit the ammo with the run out. I don't hate black hills, or wish them any ill will.
From what I have seen black hills, and Mr. Hoffman are the epitome of what customer service should be. They are up there with dillon, and rcbs. I wish they would figure out a way to get the tmk into reloaders hands, but I also understand they are a business. An ethical business, that has a strong pressence on the forums, and it is not just a sales rep. It is the owner. How many owners of what I would guess to be a multi million dollar operation take the time to participate in these forums.
While I have had some harsh words towards black hills (nothing hate filled just not friendly) my recent experience with them will cause me to recommend them. I will also purchase some 77tmk, and 50tsx. They are the only people producing these products, and even if there were others their outstanding customer service would cause me to go with them over others.
I have not measured run out on the new ammo they sent me but I will measure it, and report back if it is under .005 I will be extremely happy. I would like to let Mr. Hoffman know that my recent dealings with I beleive his name was carl turned a very unsatisfied person who would never buy from you again to a happy customer. You run an honest company that has gone above and beyond what is expected from a company. I will try to report back on the run out numbers this week when I get the time.
Sorry for the long winded post, but I wanted to give adequate information on why in the past I had less than favorable things to say about black hills. I also wanted to make it clear that there actions have changed my opinion. Also from reading the most recent posts I realize it is unfair to compare my loads to theres. My out put for a year im sure is less than there output for one shift.
Jstone
I certainly hope this thread isn't what got Mark banned. He said nothing out of line. If it is, it doesn't reflect positively upon the powers that be. Like it or not, Mark is a knowledgeable member of this forum and I for one, have probably learned more about reloading from him than most others.
Jstone - we can't afford to lose you either. Sad to say but you may have to self censor your opinions too.
I have never had a problem with Black Hills ammo. I don't have much experience with them either since I reload 99% of my ammo. I have bought exactly 100 rounds of Black Hills ammo over the last few years. 5.56 77gr OTM (Mk262) to use as a benchmark and these new 5.56 77gr TMK. I don't ever see myself buying much more of it since I do reload so much. But I have never had a problem with any of their products. My only real gripe is price, but its along the same pricing plane as all match ammo...
Most (not all) "match" ammo is just a match bullet stuffed in a case loaded to the same standards as blasting ammo. I think Black Hills goes beyond that and truly tries to produce the best bulk match ammo possible.
I certainly hope this thread isn't what got Mark banned. He said nothing out of line. If it is, it doesn't reflect positively upon the powers that be. Like it or not, Mark is a knowledgeable member of this forum and I for one, have probably learned more about reloading from him than most others.
Jstone - we can't afford to lose you either. Sad to say but you may have to self censor your opinions too.
I have to agree, I thought Mark toned down his rhetoric about his opinion as this thread went on.
We have had a few issues with Black hills not shooting great. 300WM is one notable. Their 300WM load did not perform great 1.5 MOA in a capable rifle. (One load one rifle) And it is factory fodder and 300 is more difficult IMHO than 223 or 308 to hit the mark. Excuse the pun. When we weighed the brass it had a much greater variance than both NORMA (of course it did) and RWS.
Norma held a tight variance to 223
RWS held a very tight 278
BH 239-247
I didn't record the variance of the other brands because it was minimal and never thought I would be writing this post. So we hypothesized the weak link in BH was their Brass. They use great Bullets, probably quality powder , but end up losing a slight edge on Brass more than anything.
Also, we hypothsize if you use a SMK, life is going to be pretty good. Hats off to BH for using quality bullets.
Primer pockets were weak after one firing. That being said, the main issue with BH ammo MAY be in their brass. And to improve on that would be going from good to great. We were talking last night, thinking about buying those new badd ass SMK's with improved tip and shoot them out of my .5 inch 5R and post results as sort of a peace pipe offering.
I know Mark's opinion is "its hard to screw up the SMK" vs BH makes awesome ammo.
That being said, we are going to buy some of the new BH TMK ammo and shoot it for groups and push it to 1K and beyond. We are both confident it will do well. And one of these days, we can try the TMK in our reloads.
Mark can be cantanqerous a bit, but he does share a passion with BH's Jeff Hoffman and many others on this forum. Im sure Jeff takes comments personal, I probably would too if I owned BH. I can say we will give Jeff's ammo a fair trial again and post straight up results. I'm sure they will be fine.
As a soldier going from XM193 to BH SMK77 would be Heaven sent ammo. No one would refute that point. And BH is making high volume quantities…..so good for our boys.
I certainly hope this thread isn't what got Mark banned. He said nothing out of line. If it is, it doesn't reflect positively upon the powers that be. Like it or not, Mark is a knowledgeable member of this forum and I for one, have probably learned more about reloading from him than most others.
Jstone - we can't afford to lose you either. Sad to say but you may have to self censor your opinions too.
I wont self censor ever. If I had not had the encounter I did with black hills recently my opinion would not have changed. Also losing my computer that had all my load data along with ammo I have measured and brass I have measured. All my data for roughly ten years gone. It taught me 2 lessons back everything up, and no internet porn if the computer is important. I have been very busy of late but Im going to try my hardest to get the run out numbers posted on the new ammo I have.
It also reflects very poorly that if you speek out about a company that is a sponsor gets the ban hammer. I made a comment earlier in this thread about black hills messing up a wet dream. Markm told me to be careful what I say. I think his 2 last bans have been from speeking out on black hills. Which is bull shit, just becaus3 someone sponsors a forum does not mean a member cant speek out against said company.
I will say if my numbers come back with bad run out I will not sugar coat it. From what pappabear said about the brass having large variations. If there are large variations in the neck this could cause the run out.
I don't understand how this thread got to comparing moderately priced premium ammo (good value) to precision handloads. ??? I should hope that handloads carefully prepped, sorted and inspected could easily beat nearly any factory match ammo, let alone ammo not claiming to be the most accurate match ammo every devised.
As a handloader I rarely buy premium ammo except for defense, benchmarking, or just curiosity. If I was buying ammo to compete I would expect to pay about twice at least what this BH ammo costs.
This ammo is interesting to me. For one thing BH seems to offer a variety of bullet styles, brands and weights not often seen by a major manufacturer. Introducing the tipped SMK is very smart, especially keeping the ogive blunt enough to fit in standard COL and mags. The second point is that the tip appears to improve terminal performance. This looks very competitive for a general purpose action competition round with longer distances as well as defense and probably some hunting. Obviously this bullet and ammo is not intended for absolute best accuracy/ballistics for slow fire long distance accuracy competition. It will probably do great for that for 99% of shooters but the blunt ogive will compete with Berger VLDs. So I assume that is not the target market. But as a serious step up from M193 and action based speed+accuracy drills this looks darn good for non handloaders.
I applaud Sierra for a different take on tipped bullets and BH for getting to market at a fair price. Now if I can just talk my buddy who doesn't reload into buying a few boxes for "us" to try out...
SeriousStudent
10-30-14, 18:58
Gentlemen, a word, if I may?
This is a thread about ammunition. It's not a thread about interactions with a member. If you have a question about an interaction, you can contact a staff or senior staff member.
Thank you.
Sierraeight
10-30-14, 19:52
All,
I was out all day and this is the first opportunity I have had to respond. I won't be able to hit everything in one post, but will try to respond to all topics. If I miss one, remind me. One thing mentioned is that we (BHA) have to load for every gun out there. That is absolutely true. What we make has to function and be safe in every firearm out there. This is one reason why handloads done with skill and tested and tweaked to a particular rifle will always have an advantage over anyone's factory produced ammunition. Another factor mentioned is cost of making ammo. In the case of Jstone's complaint, he found some rounds in ammo he purchased that did not meet his personal expectation for runout.(Alignment of the projectile with axis of the case) . There are a number of factors that can affect this and it is something that we monitor, and try to minimize. Off the top, brass concentricity, alignment of the base to the long axis, alignment of the neck, trim uniformity of the case mouth, and insertion of the projectile and crimping. On of the principles we believe in is that the more uniform you can make your ammo, the more variables you can control, the better chance you have of getting good accuracy and happy customers. A friend of mine has a saying. "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" We can ship ammo that has .003 max runout guaranteed for every round, but it would not be economically feasible. We take great pains in producing our ammunition. These "pains" are controls and testing that slow production and add labor cost. It is a real balancing act. The only reason anyone buys Black Hills is QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE, because we are not the cheapest ammo, but there seems to be a demand for quality. We have run continual overtime since 911, with the exception of some of 2011, BUT, a common comment is our ammo costs more. We have to maintain that balance between chasing that extra measure of perfection vs having a product that shooters can afford. With regard to runout, a few years back we did a test. I wanted to see the affect of runout on accuracy. I had ammo sorted to get minimal runout vs terrible runout. I don't recall specific numbers but it was something like less than .003 in the good lot vs everything over .010 in the "bad" lot. We shot 10 shot groups at 300 yards. The minimal run out shot better.... by less than .5".... at 300 yards. I know that sounds nuts. That was in an accuracy barrel, carefully loaded one round at a time. Think for a moment however about what happens in anyone 's AR. Do you think that perfectly concentric ammo will still be perfectly concentric after it takes a bobsled ride at cyclic speed from the magazine, up the feed ramp, past the locking lugs into the chamber and ends up in it's final resting place prior to firing? Similarly I think the "bad rounds" re runout, tend to get straightened somewhat in a good chamber, and then likely self align a bit jumping into the bore during firing. If there are some folks who can shed more light on this than what I have seen, I am sincerely interested in other folks opinions.
RE velocities of the TMK, we load them the same as the SMK, which typically runs around 2750+ from a 20" gun and around 2650 from a 16" gun. From a 14.5 you are probably in the 2600-2625 range.
Re the production and distribution of the Sierra TMK, We went to Sierra and asked them to make this particular bullet for us. In this discussion we talked about estimated sales quantities, our promotion of their company with this bullet, and potential future business. They agreed to make it for us. The decided to make it a BHA specific bullet for the time being. We did not ask for that, they felt in light of our commitment and our long and mutually beneficial relationship that it was a fair thing to do. I think the bullet is a big stride forward and will be very successful. If anyone out there has a similar idea that they think is a good one, they can approach any bullet maker out there with their idea and work to convince that company to make a special projectile for them. If you think that Sierra should offer it to the reloading community , call Sierra and convince them. I will not stand in anyone's way. I would however ask that Sierra not offer those bullets at this time to other OEMs since we took the initial risk and initiative to get the bullet designed. We should have a chance to promote our product. that is how capitalism works.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss these things. I am headed home but will check in the morning. Good night, Jeff
BufordTJustice
12-08-14, 08:20
All,
I was out all day and this is the first opportunity I have had to respond. I won't be able to hit everything in one post, but will try to respond to all topics. If I miss one, remind me. One thing mentioned is that we (BHA) have to load for every gun out there. That is absolutely true. What we make has to function and be safe in every firearm out there. This is one reason why handloads done with skill and tested and tweaked to a particular rifle will always have an advantage over anyone's factory produced ammunition. Another factor mentioned is cost of making ammo. In the case of Jstone's complaint, he found some rounds in ammo he purchased that did not meet his personal expectation for runout.(Alignment of the projectile with axis of the case) . There are a number of factors that can affect this and it is something that we monitor, and try to minimize. Off the top, brass concentricity, alignment of the base to the long axis, alignment of the neck, trim uniformity of the case mouth, and insertion of the projectile and crimping. On of the principles we believe in is that the more uniform you can make your ammo, the more variables you can control, the better chance you have of getting good accuracy and happy customers. A friend of mine has a saying. "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" We can ship ammo that has .003 max runout guaranteed for every round, but it would not be economically feasible. We take great pains in producing our ammunition. These "pains" are controls and testing that slow production and add labor cost. It is a real balancing act. The only reason anyone buys Black Hills is QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE, because we are not the cheapest ammo, but there seems to be a demand for quality. We have run continual overtime since 911, with the exception of some of 2011, BUT, a common comment is our ammo costs more. We have to maintain that balance between chasing that extra measure of perfection vs having a product that shooters can afford. With regard to runout, a few years back we did a test. I wanted to see the affect of runout on accuracy. I had ammo sorted to get minimal runout vs terrible runout. I don't recall specific numbers but it was something like less than .003 in the good lot vs everything over .010 in the "bad" lot. We shot 10 shot groups at 300 yards. The minimal run out shot better.... by less than .5".... at 300 yards. I know that sounds nuts. That was in an accuracy barrel, carefully loaded one round at a time. Think for a moment however about what happens in anyone 's AR. Do you think that perfectly concentric ammo will still be perfectly concentric after it takes a bobsled ride at cyclic speed from the magazine, up the feed ramp, past the locking lugs into the chamber and ends up in it's final resting place prior to firing? Similarly I think the "bad rounds" re runout, tend to get straightened somewhat in a good chamber, and then likely self align a bit jumping into the bore during firing. If there are some folks who can shed more light on this than what I have seen, I am sincerely interested in other folks opinions.
RE velocities of the TMK, we load them the same as the SMK, which typically runs around 2750+ from a 20" gun and around 2650 from a 16" gun. From a 14.5 you are probably in the 2600-2625 range.
Re the production and distribution of the Sierra TMK, We went to Sierra and asked them to make this particular bullet for us. In this discussion we talked about estimated sales quantities, our promotion of their company with this bullet, and potential future business. They agreed to make it for us. The decided to make it a BHA specific bullet for the time being. We did not ask for that, they felt in light of our commitment and our long and mutually beneficial relationship that it was a fair thing to do. I think the bullet is a big stride forward and will be very successful. If anyone out there has a similar idea that they think is a good one, they can approach any bullet maker out there with their idea and work to convince that company to make a special projectile for them. If you think that Sierra should offer it to the reloading community , call Sierra and convince them. I will not stand in anyone's way. I would however ask that Sierra not offer those bullets at this time to other OEMs since we took the initial risk and initiative to get the bullet designed. We should have a chance to promote our product. that is how capitalism works.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss these things. I am headed home but will check in the morning. Good night, Jeff
Jeff, I was reading about the 5.56 version of the TMK on AR15 dot com and some there posted that it is designed to fragment RADIALLY upon impact as opposed to the std SMK which is dependent on yaw prior to fragmentation. Is this true? Can you comment on this from a terminal ballistics standpoint?
Sierraeight
12-08-14, 16:18
BufordTJustice,
The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design.
With regard to penetration and TC performance, the 308 benefits even more. The 175 MatchKing typically penetrates 6-7 inches before going into yaw. The TMK design moves this right to the front of the block, just like the 556 version.
Jeff
BufordTJustice
12-09-14, 18:00
BufordTJustice,
The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design.
With regard to penetration and TC performance, the 308 benefits even more. The 175 MatchKing typically penetrates 6-7 inches before going into yaw. The TMK design moves this right to the front of the block, just like the 556 version.
Jeff
That's outstanding info. Thank you.
You guys consider getting with Hornady on a load using their GMX 70gr pill?
vicious_cb
12-09-14, 18:04
BufordTJustice,
The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design.
With regard to penetration and TC performance, the 308 benefits even more. The 175 MatchKing typically penetrates 6-7 inches before going into yaw. The TMK design moves this right to the front of the block, just like the 556 version.
Jeff
Interesting. Is the polymer tip being driven back into the jacket what initiates the early fragmentation? If so it sounds similar to how M855A1 works.
Sierraeight
12-09-14, 18:07
BufordTJustice,
You might see a number of things you will like in the 2015 releases. :) Jeff
BufordTJustice
12-09-14, 18:14
BufordTJustice,
You might see a number of things you will like in the 2015 releases. :) Jeff
Sweet!
BufordTJustice,
You might see a number of things you will like in the 2015 releases. :) Jeff
70gr TSX Brown tip? :D
Sierraeight
12-09-14, 18:27
Vicious cb,
I would say a closer comparison would be any of the other polymer tipped rounds. Same technology, but in this case Sierra combined it with MatchKings that are renowned for accuracy, in a wide range of barrels. The tip increased the BC and improved reliability of performance in gel, without sacrificing anything in accuracy that the MatchKing is known for. In our testing we have seen some indication the accuracy may have improved a bit, and that is significant with a bullet that already shoots really well. Jeff
Robb Jensen
12-09-14, 19:02
Thanks for signing up and joining M4C Jeff.
We sell quite a bit of BH ammo and have never had any issues with it. My two favorite loads in 5.56mm are the 62gr TSX and the 77gr Tipped. I have not tried the .308 175gr Tipped but will in my suppressed Rem700 next time we get some.
Sierraeight
12-09-14, 19:14
Robb Jensen,
Thanks. Let me know if there is ever anything I can help you with. Thanks for the patience as well over the past few years. Our delivery times really got long. We are making good strides on catching up now. It is crazy when you are in business and actually happy when it slows down. It will give us a chance to get back to delivering good service on delivery times. Jeff
Robb Jensen
12-09-14, 19:19
Thanks Jeff. The RUAG 55gr FMJ stuff you guys had imported was amazing too, I hope you guys keep that coming in.
Sierraeight
12-09-14, 19:38
Robb,
I wish I had a better crystal ball. We brought that in because we couldn't catch up. You are right, it is beautiful stuff. We still have a little bit, but it was a backup. Really nice ammo, but if we can keep up using our own presses, that will be Plan A. Jeff
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
Digital_Damage
12-17-14, 18:19
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
Son of a -.... I just worked up my loads with the SMK, oh well back to the range I go!
Humm no can?
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
http://m.memegen.com/vnx3ud.jpg
SeriousStudent
12-17-14, 22:55
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
Sweet, indeed. Those 175's are going to be interesting.
I want 500 of the 77's and 175's real bad.
I bought those 30 cal 210 long range Accubonds the other day. New bullet. It's VLD ish. They have a pretty nice BC. I CANT WAIT TO SEE HOW THEY PERFORM COMPARED TO OUR 208 AMAX. All good stuff.
We all make these baby steps that cumulatively add up to amazing.
The bullet don't lie.
PB
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
I bet they were getting pounded with inquiries.
BufordTJustice
12-19-14, 20:53
Now if only a 70+ grain TGK BT bonded. :D
Now if only a 70+ grain TGK BT bonded. :D
This has always been what I considered the ultimate 224 sd/HD bullet.
BufordTJustice
12-20-14, 07:28
This has always been what I considered the ultimate 224 sd/HD bullet.
Like a Brown tip-ish type performance, but cheaper to make.
Just a quick heads-up that Sierra will be offering TMK bullets in 2015: https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/new.cfm
It'll be interesting to see how these do. I hope they're as easy to work with as the SMK.
It'll be interesting to see how these do. I hope they're as easy to work with as the SMK.
They will be. It'll be interesting to see if the nominal BC improvement translates to any realized gains for the end user. We'll definitely run them head to head against the regular SMKs at long range.
StingerDan
12-20-14, 14:04
I have a feeling the 77's will be in a lot of 3 Gun magazines for long range shots real soon. Anybody see any in stock anywhere?
ETA. I just realized they won't be released at all until next month. When I called Sierra about these way back when, they were pretty adamant about not releasing these bullets to the general public. This shows how persuasive we can be.
When I called Sierra about these way back when, they were pretty adamant about not releasing these bullets to the general public. This shows how persuasive we can be.
It's funny. I had ZERO desire to develop another damned load... BUT.. if they're going to do the right thing, We'll shoot the bullets. :)
vicious_cb
04-29-15, 01:24
Bare gel and barrier tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihq_U-2BKM
BufordTJustice
04-29-15, 04:30
Bare gel and barrier tests:
I'm quite impressed. That's devastating for an unobstructed shot.
I shot a green tip into water here at home. I kinda felt that the frag was TOO good out of an 11.5. I prefer the regular OTM's deeper penetration... although the Green tipped bullet would certainly do a number.
vicious_cb
04-29-15, 16:55
I shot a green tip into water here at home. I kinda felt that the frag was TOO good out of an 11.5. I prefer the regular OTM's deeper penetration... although the Green tipped bullet would certainly do a number.
I dont much stock in water tests other than to answer the question "Will it frag?" Water tests tend to over exaggerate fragmentation and expansion. What really surprised me was how deep this penetrated in gel, 16" is pretty damn good for an OTM and it even did decently through barriers.
Bare gel and barrier tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihq_U-2BKM
Clear Ballistics Gel is not a valid test medium and the scientific literature has shown that "energy transfer" is not a wounding mechanism for small arms fire.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY
by M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219
Institute Report No. 239
The “Shock Wave” Myth
By Dr. Martin Fackler
Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989).
Ballistic Injury
By Dr. Martin Fackler
Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986
Bullet Penetration
By Duncan MacPherson
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
By Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
....
vicious_cb
04-29-15, 21:11
100% correct Molon. While 10% ordinance gel is ideal clear ballistics gel is better than nothing. Also I think the real strength of the clear ballistics using it to compare a good performer that has existing ordinance gel data and comparing it with an unknown bullet and seeing how close it comes.
For example, the same youtuber made another video with hornady 75gr TAP using clear ballistics which already has plenty of ordinance gel data which we can compare directly to the performance of the 77gr TMK.
I dont much stock in water tests other than to answer the question "Will it frag?" Water tests tend to over exaggerate fragmentation and expansion
I agree. But it's relatively easy to do a water test... and you get some comparability from load to load.
It would be nice to be able to buy a gallon of gel for $1.00 or .02.
gamewarden
05-09-15, 06:10
33191
From Applied Ballistics Facebook page. Also, Litz says they will be testing the 77 gr TMK soon (they are in the mail).
Thanks for link, Gamewarden. Keep us informed. Alot of us are dying to know whaht Litz is for 77 TMK and 175 TMK.
gamewarden
05-10-15, 14:30
175 TMK is listed already
Gamewarden,
I checked on accurate shooter and the on line JBM ballistic calculator for Litz G7 data for the 175 TMK and the 77 TMK and neither is listed that I could find.
Do you know what they are?
I just shot a good group at 900 yards with the 75 Hornady T1 moly coated bullets at 2920 fps average using the Litz data and it was very close to what was predicted.
Thanks.
Post #89 shows the 175 TMK Litz G7...
Thanks, an honest to god ten percent increase over the 175 SMK. (.267 vs .243) thats alot! Probably 1 - 1.5 MOA less dope at 1,000 yds. Thanks for link to Mr. Litz's facebook page.
Pappabear and I shot the 175s today in our hand loads. The only variable being that the 175 SMKs were loaded in LC LR brass (slightly lower internal case volume) And the 175 TMKs were loaded in Lapua brass. These shot EXACTLY the same POI at 100, and come up was EXACTLY the same at 1070 yards. I literally shot a mag with regular SMKs first and TMKs behind them, and there was no difference in POI.
We only had a dozen loaded up. So we'll get another run at these next time, but with all Lapua brass and a chrono to get better info.
Thanks Markm,
That is really interesting.
Maybe the SMK's had slightly higher velocity than the TMK's due to LC brass?
How many mils were you using for elevation at 1070?
PS Ive loaded up some 175 Barnes Match Burners which are more of a VLD/secant ogive than the SMK's at 2700 fps (honest) using VV550. Not super accurate at 100 (around an inch instead of clover leafs) but it might be a good 1000 yd+ load.
At 1070 I think we were 12.5mils. We were shooting a FN SPR with 24 inch barrel and SDN6. So velocity is good. We didn't write dope down so it was a bit of a cluster ****. We were slamming rounds for 2.5 hrs straight.
Taking Chrono next with quality data. And I won't fork up and leave my Lapua 308 ammo. I was messing around with a few .22's. Same story there, ammo matters. Eley Tenex shot holes in holes. Annie 1416HD
gamewarden
06-08-15, 08:27
Well I'm glad there wasn't a drastic difference in my case...my 308 LaRue PredatOBR is not a fan of the Blackhills loaded 175 TMK. It likes GMM though. Groups were consistently around 2 moa (tmk). SD on the BH's from my magneto speed was around 12 fps.
Maybe the SMK's had slightly higher velocity than the TMK's due to LC brass?
That's what I was thinking. When we shot the 77 grains head to head, we could see a noticeable improvement, but the .308 is a different animal. As with the .223, the bullet takes up a bunch more of the internal case volume which could be doing some weird stuff to velocities. There were no pressure signs, so who knows?
BufordTJustice
06-10-15, 07:50
At 1070 I think we were 12.5mils. We were shooting a FN SPR with 24 inch barrel and SDN6. So velocity is good. We didn't write dope down so it was a bit of a cluster ****. We were slamming rounds for 2.5 hrs straight.
Taking Chrono next with quality data. And I won't fork up and leave my Lapua 308 ammo. I was messing around with a few .22's. Same story there, ammo matters. Eley Tenex shot holes in holes. Annie 1416HD
You and Mark are awesome. Thank you for the update and keep the info coming.
Picked up 100 of the 77gr TMKs. I think I'll try them along side the 69gr TMKs. I'd like to try both on coyotes, but despite searching, I haven't seen results from anyone else on coyotes yet. I only ever get to shoots to 450, so there might not be much gained by going from 69gr to 77gr.
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