View Full Version : Stupid 4moa vs 2moa question
Ok im sure this topic has been completly raped but i didnt see the thread anywhere... I was seriously considering and EOtech 512... but the aimpoint has kinda caught my eye.. ive got to look through an EO and really like the reticule but have never seen through an aimpoint so im not familiar with the dot sizes... Do yall prefer the 2moa or 4? If 4moa my second question would be would the comp ML2 be fine or should i pay out the extra cash and get an ML3.. If i want 2moa the ML3 is my only option right?( cant afford an comp M4) anyways sorry if this is a dumb question.. im just an uneducated newb in the ways of optics.. thanks for your time and info..
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13000
I have an ML2 (4moa) and it works fine for me...and you can often snag a great deal from somebody who feels the need to upgrade. Look into the C3 model if you are interested in the 2moa dot and on a budget.
I have an M2 in 4moa and an M4 with 2moa- I use the 3X magnifier in conjunction with the M4.
I would definitely go 2moa- especially if you are thinking about getting a magnifier.
I won't own more than a 1 MOA dot. Seems silly to have bigger unless you have a darn good reason (which some do, I'm sure). So, it's EOTech for me.
The Archangel
05-16-08, 13:42
I won't own more than a 1 MOA dot. Seems silly to have bigger unless you have a darn good reason (which some do, I'm sure). So, it's EOTech for me.
Durability comes to mind and oh yeah, Ooops, I forgot to turn my Aimpoint off... during the last Presidential elections... eh no problem (it's still on and working perfectly). :o
Durability comes to mind and oh yeah, Ooops, I forgot to turn my Aimpoint off... during the last Presidential elections... eh no problem (it's still on and working perfectly). :o
Durability won't be a problem with me. It's not like I'm some Spec Ops soldier clearing caves in afghanistan. I'm a civilian that likes plinking...much like probably a good majority of the guys on here. 1,000 hours of continuous use on two AA's is plenty of power for me. If I can spend $2,500-3k on an M4 setup, I can spend 10 bucks for a pack of AA's.
I forgot to turn my Aimpoint off... during the last Presidential elections... eh no problem (it's still on and working perfectly). :o
You need to shoot more often.
The Archangel
05-16-08, 15:49
You need to shoot more often.
LOL. :D
I won't own more than a 1 MOA dot. Seems silly to have bigger unless you have a darn good reason (which some do, I'm sure). So, it's EOTech for me.
Does your AR shoot 1moa? Mine wont- 1moa is a great idea if the weapon shoots 1moa.
within 2, yes. I like to see my target...not have it covered up by an ashperical red dot.
Does your AR shoot 1moa? Mine wont- 1moa is a great idea if the weapon shoots 1moa.
To be fair he did say that it's for plinking use.
I have a 2moa Comp M3 a couple 4moa of the same type and a Micro T-1 (which is listed as 4moa but seems smaller to me, more like 3moa). I find the 4moa is a little easier to pick up and is quicker, but I don't have, nor do I ever intend to use a magnifier. They are all mounted on "social use" weapons. Since I don't think I'm ever going to be in a situation that justifies me shooting a person much beyond 200 yards (or even that far away for that matter), the 4moa works better for me.
As far as EOTech v. Aimpoint, if durability and battery life are even at the bottom of your list of considerations EOTech won't be in the running.
As far as EOTech v. Aimpoint, if durability and battery life are even at the bottom of your list of considerations EOTech won't be in the running.
I just don't understand...why is even 500 hours of battery life (supposed to be 1000 at low setting, so I figured worst case) a bad thing? You can leave it on for 20 full days. Assuming you even shot say 4 hours a day, every single day, that's about 5 months of use, just on a pair of AA's. My goodness...why is that bad?
I just don't understand...why is even 500 hours of battery life (supposed to be 1000 at low setting, so I figured worst case) a bad thing? You can leave it on for 20 full days. Assuming you even shot say 4 hours a day, every single day, that's about 5 months of use, just on a pair of AA's. My goodness...why is that bad?
1,000 v. 10,000-80,000
Really?
Really?
1,000 v. 10,000-80,000??????????
Really?
But come on...it's AA's. What does it really matter? As I said...people spend thousands on their rifles, but then worry about how many months they'll get out of their $3 battery? It just seems like a silly consideration.
theJanitor
05-16-08, 20:28
a ML3 is on my goto gun. it stays on ALL the time. when you need your gun and the seconds matter, not having to turn your optic on is a big deal. just change it every time feb29 rolls around.
but back to topic, i like the 4moa. it's faster for me
But come on...it's AA's. What does it really matter? As I said...people spend thousands on their rifles, but then worry about how many months they'll get out of their $3 battery? It just seems like a silly consideration.
Not to anybody who relies on their weapon for anything more than plinking.
When you really think about it....the price you pay for an aimpoint with an 80,000 hour batt life...you would match that price and then some with all the double a's you would need to match the 80,000 hours with an eotech 1000 hour batt life.
Ron S.
With regards to this issue.
First, check out www.downrange.tv/show2 video clips Part 2 & 3
Second, I have posted this before, but some things that need to be considered when purchasing a combat optic that you’ll trust with your life is durability, reliability, simplicity, and life cycle costs. As the saying goes "buy cheap, buy twice." So something that is cheap, well... is. Look at what the top tier carbine instructors use on their carbines, again as they say "In police work they call that a clue." Anyway, my intent is not to create a debate about which optic is the best but to compare life cycle costs of military combat optics based on Apples and Apples as best possible, thus I used only the data provided by each manufacturer for their optics that are NVD compatible for military use, manufacturers suggested retail price, as well as an approximate battery cost based on a Google search.
Those red dot optics compared were only those that are in use by the U.S. military: the old and new M68 CCOs: Aimpoint CompM4, M3, and M2 and the EOTech 552.A65 & 557.AR223 I recently updated this analysis with Aimpoint and EOTech sights that are commonly used for civilian and LEO.
Aimpoint CompM4 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $780
Life Cycle Cost - 80,000 Hours w/ AA Lithium Battery
CompM4 MSR $780
Weight - CompM4 335g
Aimpoint CompM3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $678
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompM3 MSR $556 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g
Aimpoint CompM2 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $619
Life Cycle Cost – 20,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 4 Batteries X $3.49 = $14
CompM2 MSR $490 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight - CompM2 w/ QRP Mount 335g
Micro T-1 w/LT660 Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $749
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/CR2032 Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $0.99 = $2
Micro T-1 MSR $650 + LT660 Mount MSR $98
Weight – Micro T-1 w/ LT Mount 177gr
Aimpoint CompC3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $537
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompC3 MSR $415 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g
EOTech 552.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $844
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
552.A65 MSR $479 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 552.A65 326g
EOTech 557.AR223 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $934
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
557.AR223 MSR $569 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 557.AR223 326g
EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $784
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours w/ 2 AA Lithium Batteries = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 512.A65 326g
EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $739
Life Cycle Cost – 350 Hours w/ 2 AA Alkaline Batteries = 458 Batteries X $.70 ea = $320
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $320
Weight – 512.A65 326g
EOTech 511.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1439
Life Cycle Cost – 200 Hours w/2 N Cell Alkaline Batteries = 800 Batteries X $1.30 ea = $1040
511.A65 MSR $399 + Life Cycle $1040
Weight – 512.A65 326g
----Logistics costs for one 600 man Infantry Battalion equipped with EOTechs using AA Lithium Batteries during a 15 month deployment. 15 months = 458 day X 24 hours = 10,992 hours. 20 AA Lithium batteries per soldier = 12,000 AA Lithium batteries = $30,000.
----Logistics costs for one 600 man Infantry Battlion equipped with Aimpoint CompM4s using AA Lithium Battery during a 15 month deployment = $0
S/F
----Logistics costs for one 600 man Infantry Battlion equipped with Aimpoint CompM4s using AA Lithium Battery during a 15 month deployment = $0
S/F
Not needing to put troops/contractors at risk delivering batteries to forward areas = Priceless
ETA: Of course, the logistics angle is less relevant to the civilian shooter.
I appreciate all that info, however...I'm not using it to save my life, and while I know there's lots of soldiers on here that do, a good portion of the guys are just your average joe like me, and for them and I, it is indeed a silly consideration.
Once I said I was just plinking and using it for HD, I assumed people wouldn't compare me to a Marine. That is indeed apples to oranges.
i think i get your point...and on that note....
it comes down to what you want..
I appreciate all that info, however...I'm not using it to save my life, and while I know there's lots of soldiers on here that do, a good portion of the guys are just your average joe like me, and for them and I, it is indeed a silly consideration.
Once I said I was just plinking and using it for HD, I assumed people wouldn't compare me to a Marine. That is indeed apples to oranges.
Ron S,
You missed the point. The point of the comparison on life cycle was that while you may save money up front purchasing an EO, you'll spend it on the back end. Pay me now or pay me later. My previous post was to address your previous post about "saving money." As the life cycle cost comparison shows that really isn't the case.
S/F
I appreciate all that info, however...I'm not using it to save my life, and while I know there's lots of soldiers on here that do, a good portion of the guys are just your average joe like me, and for them and I, it is indeed a silly consideration.
Once I said I was just plinking and using it for HD, I assumed people wouldn't compare me to a Marine. That is indeed apples to oranges.
:confused:
the longer the life the less chance it will go out right when you need it.
i dont consider it "a silly consideration" at all for HD.
Ron S,
You missed the point. The point of the comparison on life cycle was that while you may save money up front purchasing an EO, you'll spend it on the back end. Pay me now or pay me later. My previous post was to address your previous post about "saving money." As the life cycle cost comparison shows that really isn't the case.
S/F
:confused:
the longer the life the less chance it will go out right when you need it.
i dont consider it "a silly consideration" at all for HD.
Look...I'm not saying anyone's stupid for buying an aimpoint, and I know most men have an overwhelming need to validate decisions, and that's fine, really. I'm not picking on anyone for their decision making ability. I just think that for a non-LEO civilian, battery life is no reason to base you decision on. If you don't mind the bigger dot and want the more durable, rubberized aimpoint, by all means go for it. I just prefer the reticle of the EOTech. I don't even like the look of the EOTech on my rifle...I much prefer the LOOK of the Aimpoint...I just can't get a fine "dot" out of it. It always looks like some weird star to me. With the EOTech, though, it's just a little dot inside the circle. Very easy to see.
Also, it's not a saving money thing for me. I'm not looking to save money. I'd buy an ACOG if I wanted one, but I don't. You know why? The reticle I want doesn't come in the magnification I want. Silly, huh? My point about the money was that I didn't understand why when both sights have an amazing battery life, why it was such a consideration. A month of solid on time isn't enough to suck out of a pair of AA's? Just sounded goofy to me. It's not gonna "go out right when I need it", either. The EOTech reticle blinks when the battery gets low. ;)
i feel now i am pretty much like you, i don't even keep a round in the chamber (although a mag is loaded) because i feel that if a home intruder has that much of a jump on me that i cant chamber one...then i might fair better trying to talk my way to my ccw piece
See, the only reason I keep a round in the chamber of mine is that the op rod is so darn loud when it slaps shut, I just don't want to bring that much attention to myself if someone's sneaking around my house. If I just have to switch the fire selector, I can be extremely silent (relatively). That said, my tactical cruiser will probably the first one I pick up. Hard to miss even in the dark with a shotgun. :D
RONS
Look...I'm not saying anyone's stupid for buying an aimpoint, and I know most men have an overwhelming need to validate decisions, and that's fine, really. I'm not picking on anyone for their decision making ability. I just think that for a non-LEO civilian, battery life is no reason to base you decision on. If you don't mind the bigger dot and want the more durable, rubberized aimpoint, by all means go for it. I just prefer the reticle of the EOTech. I don't even like the look of the EOTech on my rifle...I much prefer the LOOK of the Aimpoint...I just can't get a fine "dot" out of it. It always looks like some weird star to me. With the EOTech, though, it's just a little dot inside the circle. Very easy to see.
Also, it's not a saving money thing for me. I'm not looking to save money. I'd buy an ACOG if I wanted one, but I don't. You know why? The reticle I want doesn't come in the magnification I want. Silly, huh? My point about the money was that I didn't understand why when both sights have an amazing battery life, why it was such a consideration. A month of solid on time isn't enough to suck out of a pair of AA's? Just sounded goofy to me. It's not gonna "go out right when I need it", either. The EOTech reticle blinks when the battery gets low.
Sounds to me like you already had yourself convinced on getting an EOTech and your now looking for validation..
get one and find out just a 20 days of battery life is REALLY like... your going to be surprised...
I just completed a class that was mostly LEO and I watched a guy whose 's EO tech died on a battery that only had 10 hrs on it...
If you think battery life is not important on a RDS.. your completely wrong... it;s everything in an optic. I want something that I know will always work... Your thought process follows the manual.."oh.. the low battery light is flashing.. Time to change them"
Hopefully that works out at a convenient time for you and not at 2AM after you hear glass break downstairs and your turning on your optic..
And a funy thing,, when I was shooting with a T-1 which runs a 4MOA dot... I had no probelm doing a 5 rd group slow fire prone at 50 yrds with that HUGE dot. (it's actually 3.7 or 3.8MOA (Feel free to correct me Col. B...:D ) and the guys shooting EO techs with there 1 MOA were not experiencing the same size group...
Go get your EOTech and then come back in a year....we'll talk then...;)
I guess the real answer is that ACOG, then, eh? No power required.
ok... i asked a simple question and it somehow has turned into yet another EOtech vs Aimpoint battle... big surprise...:rolleyes: .... but i must admit it has been quite entertaining... hell i might as well just get one of each and be done with it!
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