View Full Version : Sionics cerakote Upper / Lower set
Thanks to Iraqgunz and Josh at Sionics I picked up 3 sets of cerakote upper lower sets from Sionics. I put the first of the 3 together. I have an FDE and Tactical Grey set and will be putting them together soon.
Upper
- Sionics Upper Burnt Bronze Cerakote
- White Oak Armament 16" Midlength Match SS 1/8 barrel
- Precision Armament AFAB
- Vltor LPGB
- Franklin Armory 13" Rail
- LMT BCG
- Rainier Arms Raptor CH
Lower
- Sionics Lower Burnt Bronze Cerakote
- Geissele SSA trigger
- Bad ASS selector
- Colt small parts
- Magpul MOE+ Grip
- Magpul CTR Stock
- Vltor A5 with A5H3 buffer
- Noveske QD end plate
- Magpul Battery Assist Device
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Great build, color, parts, Sonics rec looks excellent.
Jeffro2912
01-18-14, 15:07
That came out looking very nice, any thoughts on the AFAB yet?
'Merica
I agree that is a nice looking lower.
Surf,
That looks really nice! Looking forward to seeing the other ones.
Great to see that set. I've had a looksie and was impressed at their offerings. (I chuckled at the Bronze set you have. Their site was blinking the red alert "Last Items in stock!" for that color). Looking forward to the Gray build.
Here is the Titanium Grey
Upper
- Sionics Upper Titanium Grey Cerakote
- BCM BFH 16" Midlength 1/7 barrel
- BattleComp
- BCM LPGB
- Franklin Armory 13" Rail
- LMT BCG
- BCM Gunfighter CH
- LMT BUIS fixed
Lower
- Sionics Lower Titanium Grey Cerakote
- Geissele G2S trigger
- Bad ASS selector
- Colt small parts
- Magpul MOE+ Grip
- Magpul CTR Stock
- Vltor A5 with A5H3 buffer
- Noveske QD end plate
- Magpul Battery Assist Device
- Magpul Trigger Guard
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Looks great. I built one very similar with that same color scheme and a Geissele MKII rail.
Great looking rifles Surf with top notch components.
I wonder if I could get your thoughts on the Magpul BAD. It seems a lot of knowledgeable people here don't like them much so I would like to hear your thoughts on them.
Great looking rifles Surf with top notch components.
I wonder if I could get your thoughts on the Magpul BAD. It seems a lot of knowledgeable people here don't like them much so I would like to hear your thoughts on them.Sure. First I am not dismissive of others experiences. I do take input, however most of my decisions are based on my own personal experiences and vetting of anything new. I may look at things from a risk vs. reward standpoint. I don't just take the words of others as gospel, no matter who they are. There are a lot of "Guru" preachers related to this topic / industry and even more who are willing to follow what they say, good or bad. I have no "vested interests" or no proverbial "dog" in the "Industry" fight so to speak and to think that like or dislike of certain techniques, products etc are not positively or negatively influenced due to a certain bias would be naive at best. If I use the word "you" in this post, I am not singling you out specifically, but generically speaking to anyone who might be reading this.
Having said the above..... I have been running this type of a device pre-Magpul. There were those of us making our own devices such as these for a long time. I still have my original device mounted on a rifle, so I have a long history with them. I seem to opt for the Magpul version as they have a no-frills lightweight design and I have a bit of history with the original prototype and person who introduced it to them. I will first note that by policy I am restricted to a certain rifle manufacturer so that swayed my direction for a solution.
First what are the downsides?
Device running through the trigger guard, potential for "catastrophic" failure rendering the trigger un-usable and turning the rifle into a club. I have been using this type of device for about 10 years now, with the tens upon tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds fired through at least 15 different rifles I have one mounted on. Running this device in pretty much every environment / situation. I personally know many many people running them in hard use applications similar to how I run them. I have seen them run in many courses by many people. In all of that use, I have had zero, yes zero "catastrophic" failures. I have not personally witnessed a single incident where the device has had a "catastrophic" failure. Yes indeed I have heard of such a white whale existing and quite honestly don't doubt the potential. I could also get struck by lightning but that doesn't mean I won't go outside when it rains either.
Putting your finger inside the trigger guard or potential for that to happen when using the device. If that is happening to someone, it is an improper manipulation technique and boils down to a training issue. If your finger pokes, pushes or protrudes into the trigger guard when manipulating the device you're doing it wrong. An up or down sweep "outside" of the trigger guard is all that is necessary.
Bolt not locking to the rear on last round or locking the bolt premature. None of the weapons that I own or more correctly that have this device mounted on have this issue. I have seen it, and changed a bolt release, detent and spring to fix that issue for someone else, but that is a rare thing for the rifles I run / build. I would guess that you would see this more often with certain manufacturers or parts more than others. Bottom line here, if the rifle does not like the device, don't run one. I do run a stock weapon set up quite a bit also.
Bolt going forward from bumping the device. I can only think of a handful of times that I have had an occasional bolt go forward when setting a rifle down or bumping on gear in some type of administrative situation where the bolt was locked back, but I have done that without a device also. Those administrative situations are rare as we generally don't do that, we are normally buttoned up even when empty. Just like we don't normally have pistols in slide lock in our holsters. So that administrative situation is not an issue as far as I see it.
So what are my advantages? I have 3 main advantages that are all based on "efficiency". Being efficient increases speed and effectiveness. Effectiveness with a weapon in a duty or defensive situation speaks for itself. Of course training, proficiency and vetting of all weapons and equipment is a must.
Ambidextrous operation. I am relegated to using a certain manufacturer for work applications, therefore ambi lowers are not an option. I also cannot cut into the weapons either. So options for ambidextrous set ups are limited. The battery assist devices makes life as a lefty far more efficient.
Malfunction clearances. Allows me to keep better retention with keeping my primary grip on the weapon. I can decrease the downtime of the weapon significantly. Even under ideal conditions I am much more efficient and can save about 35-40% off of the time my weapon is "down". I have done it hauling ass also. Not ideal to do something like that but it sure helped. I can also perform one hand or disabled clearances much easier also. A lot of people do that type of training with a pistol, but less with a rifle.
Last and while of lesser benefit, it is still a big plus, is the efficiency and speed of reloads. Again I can cut off over a half a second on a reload in an ideal situation and I am pretty darn fast with just running my thumb up and hitting the bolt release. But the interesting thing is that under less than ideal situations like improvised or alternate shooting positions or again when hauling ass, it is much easier, more efficient and quicker at releasing the bolt. In these situations I do not always get an ideal grip on the mag. Sometimes I only get a grip on the bottom of it. Bouncing around, or being stuck in an awkward firing position makes hitting the bolt release more difficult. With the primary shooting hand grip on the rifle and the release is right at your finger tip.
I know some of these things will sound like nitpicking but I am all about increasing my efficiency. There are those that will say "I am not going to risk my life on something that runs through the trigger guard, could fail and get me killed". It is all about weighing potential risk vs. potential reward. So for myself and my own experiences, I have seen zero issues in hundreds of thousands of rounds over 10 years of hard use. The calculated odds of failure in my mind is extremely minimal. About as minimal as a catastrophic bolt failure at the wrong time. On the other end of the measuring stick, I see not just a measurable increase in efficiency and speed, but an overall significant increase in performance in many areas. Is the device for everyone? No it is not. Why the hate from many? I think it was just that, hate. Hate for the chamber check roll (I don't do it), hate for the exaggerated outstretched grip (While not exaggerated I have an outstretched grip), hate for a theoretical based concept of product design which many think is money making based, hate for the popularity of certain training DVD's, etc... I think that is a lot of hate going on. Is it the end all be all device? I hope not, I hope we continue to progress and ambi lowers or other options are being engineered. Again I am stuck with certain options not being an option. If the device does not work on a particular rifle, don't use it. If you are not proficient with the device or don't like it, don't use it.
I will say that I do think that there have been issues that were blown way out of proportion by those who choose to dislike the device for whatever reasons. Catastrophic failures, I am sure have occurred just like any catastrophic part failure that is inherent to a rifle. I think that the device has gotten a bad rap for the wrong reasons and that opinion was heavily fostered by some people with significant influence in the AR world as I mentioned in my opening paragraph. Most of the BS you see in courses with the device, where people look like a monkey ****ing a football, is overwhelmingly due to a lack of proficiency using it. But that goes for all the other stuff someone brings to use in a course and are trying to get to learn how to use it. Fumble a reload because of a new loadout / gear set up, no biggie your just getting used to it. New user with the BAD lever and hit the device and send to bolt forward at the wrong time on a reload and you will get openly humiliated and if you are not burned at the stake you will be quickly ripping it off your rifle to avoid more ridicule and then you will become "one of the flock" and pass on this failure experience. As per my normal self, I could care less what others say or do. I take input, do my own home work and ultimately I base my own decisions on my own vetted results.
Hope this answers your question(s).
The Grey build looks sharp with the color contrast. Thanks for the photos.
Hope this answers your question(s).
Yes, and then some. Thank you very much for being so thorough.
When I first built the one rifle I currently have I used lower parts that I bought from Grant with the exception of the bolt catch. I had a brain fart and didn't order those parts when I placed the order from Grant. I ended up sourcing those parts locally and have no idea what their pedigree is. Although I didn't have any basis of comparison I always thought it had more side-to-side play in it than it should have. I went ahead and installed a Tactical Link Battery Assist Lever on it anyway. It's the same concept as the Magpul BAD, but longer and heavier. It protrudes completely out the other side of the trigger guard. With this particular lever and bolt catch I had fairly frequent failures of the bolt to lock open after the last round. I took it off one day while I was out shooting and the malfunctions stopped. Of course I have no idea if the malfunctions were the fault of the BAL, the screwy bolt catch, or a combination of both.
Later I installed a Magpul BAD. I had a hard time getting used to it initially because it's shorter and doesn't protrude as far through the trigger guard as the BAL did. I think I like the design, but ultimately took it off because of how much wiggle was in that bolt catch. After I took the rifle through my first class I decided that I absolutely HATED the bolt catch. It was not causing me malfunctions but I was never 100% sure that I had properly locked the bolt to the rear when doing malfunction clearance drills because of the play in it and the small engagement surface on the bottom of it. This led me to seek out a better part. After looking around I decided to try out the Seekins Precision catch. It's oversized on the top half (bolt release), which is nice, but not why I bought it. I specifically chose it because of its shape on the bottom half (bolt catch). Rather than a little tiny tip it has a little bit larger surface to engage and it protrudes out a bit further. I installed it and the first thing I noticed was now much less play it had than the original catch. I also replaced the spring, plunger, and roll pin with Colt parts I got from Brownell's. This part had what I thought was the appropriate amount of play. Not too much, but not too tight in the slot. Ultimately I'm much happier with this part, but it's incompatible with the BAD lever. I would be curious to try out the BAD lever again, but given that it's incompatible with my current bolt catch, and that I'm very pleased with it, I don't know when that will ever happen.
ETA: I shoot primarily right handed in case it matters.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to answer my question, and I'm sorry to have pulled your thread off topic.
Again, those are beautiful rifles.
The Grey build looks sharp with the color contrast. Thanks for the photos.
I agree. Enough that I just ordered a grey upper/lower set from Sionics - hard to beat for $179.
Yes, and then some. Thank you very much for being so thorough.
When I first built the one rifle I currently have I used lower parts that I bought from Grant with the exception of the bolt catch. I had a brain fart and didn't order those parts when I placed the order from Grant. I ended up sourcing those parts locally and have no idea what their pedigree is. Although I didn't have any basis of comparison I always thought it had more side-to-side play in it than it should have. I went ahead and installed a Tactical Link Battery Assist Lever on it anyway. It's the same concept as the Magpul BAD, but longer and heavier. It protrudes completely out the other side of the trigger guard. With this particular lever and bolt catch I had fairly frequent failures of the bolt to lock open after the last round. I took it off one day while I was out shooting and the malfunctions stopped. Of course I have no idea if the malfunctions were the fault of the BAL, the screwy bolt catch, or a combination of both.
Later I installed a Magpul BAD. I had a hard time getting used to it initially because it's shorter and doesn't protrude as far through the trigger guard as the BAL did. I think I like the design, but ultimately took it off because of how much wiggle was in that bolt catch. After I took the rifle through my first class I decided that I absolutely HATED the bolt catch. It was not causing me malfunctions but I was never 100% sure that I had properly locked the bolt to the rear when doing malfunction clearance drills because of the play in it and the small engagement surface on the bottom of it. This led me to seek out a better part. After looking around I decided to try out the Seekins Precision catch. It's oversized on the top half (bolt release), which is nice, but not why I bought it. I specifically chose it because of its shape on the bottom half (bolt catch). Rather than a little tiny tip it has a little bit larger surface to engage and it protrudes out a bit further. I installed it and the first thing I noticed was now much less play it had than the original catch. I also replaced the spring, plunger, and roll pin with Colt parts I got from Brownell's. This part had what I thought was the appropriate amount of play. Not too much, but not too tight in the slot. Ultimately I'm much happier with this part, but it's incompatible with the BAD lever. I would be curious to try out the BAD lever again, but given that it's incompatible with my current bolt catch, and that I'm very pleased with it, I don't know when that will ever happen.
ETA: I shoot primarily right handed in case it matters.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to answer my question, and I'm sorry to have pulled your thread off topic.
Again, those are beautiful rifles.The thing we noted when toying with our homemade levers back in the day is that the weight and geometry of the device was critical for a correct or reliable function. My design that I mention still having on a rifle to this day is "tuneable". The arm or lever portion that runs through the trigger guard from the down leg is a fine threaded machine screw that I can run in or out depending on the rifle to help with proper function of various rifles / parts configurations. What I really liked about the final Magpul BAD lever is a good refinement over the actual prototype first taken to and introduced to them. The final product that we see today is simplified, a good deal lighter and easily attached (we used to drill and tap the paddles for attachment of devices). Yes the face or head of the bolt release needed to be within spec to for the BAD to clamp onto and even undersized paddles were loose, but taking up the space was easy enough to accomplish. When other designs started hitting the market just after the Magpul version, I knew instantly that many of the offerings were going to have or create issues on a wider range of rifles due to the weight, geometry and longer arm length acting exactly like a lever. The Magpul version was about the correct combo of design right out of the box. Of course there was a lot of knowledge and testing done prior to Magpul and they benefited from that when producing the BAD lever. Kudos to them. Latter comers to the game had more information to work off of and while there are good functioning and better looking designs, the Magpul version is still my choice.
I agree. Enough that I just ordered a grey upper/lower set from Sionics - hard to beat for $179.
Very hard to beat! I am sure you will like it!
Surf, Thanks for the photos. I had already ordered a set of the gray receivers when I saw this thread and was curious as to how they'd look. There's not a lot of photos out there (google searching) of them it seems. Shipping was delayed slightly, because of SHOT but I should have them by next week. Also ordered one of the NP3 coated BCG's. I've got very fast email responses from SIONICS and look forward to getting my hands on these parts and assembling them. With IragGuns and KL Davis saying good things about them and the reasonable prices they are offering, at this point SIONICS seems like a win for AR buyers in general.
Ok, I did a standard dry and live fire function test on these 2 rifles. After the initial dry function checks I do an initial live fire function of the weapon that includes 5 rounds for pure function and also making sure I am on paper @25 yards with my standard test optic (reflex) and then another 5 rounds for a group at 50 yards. I am not worried about zero for POA / POI but look more to how the group prints on paper.
These 5 round groups are fired with the reflex triangle optic from a prone position with the magwell as a monopod at 50 yards. I know magnification from a rest will print better groups but depending on the outcome of the rifle I will not keep shooting more groups. I am trying to determine function and rough performance. Having said that these are the 5 shot groups, 50 yards, high wind (est 12-15 mph) influencing shooter not so much the projectile. Also shot from magwell as monopod from prone, no magnification. Optic has been zero'd on other rifles. Overall I think the performance was excellent.
Burnt Bronze w/White Oak SS barrel.
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Tactical Grey w/BCM CL barrel. Very impressed.
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Overall only 50 yards, non magnified from prone magwell rested position and I am very impressed. The BCM barrel was very impressive as always but would like to see performances at distance with magnification. I am sure stacking rounds at 50 yards and very tight groups at 100 are easy with good magnification and a good rest position.
Very impressive builds and shooting Surf.
ElJefeDeJefes
01-27-14, 16:19
Great info all around! Thanks for all the insight, this is definitely pushing me towards purchasing a receiver set. Very hard to pass up at the price point.
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