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I have a little bit of reloading experience (all in handgun) and I have two questions. I have a M4 platform and a Remington 700 in .223 . I will be reloading for the 700 and was wondering if 1) there is a preferable powder difference for precision rounds (700) and m4. and 2) can I just reload for the 700 and shoot through the m4 if i want to. any help would be great. sorry if this question is a little rudimentary.
tk390
Somebody more knowledgeable than me will answer, hopefully, but AFAIK if you really want "precision" ammunition then you should load it for one specific gun.
For example, you want to size just enough to fit the gun's chamber, no more, no less.
Also, your bolt gun can probably accept cartridges longer than the mags of your AR will accept.
I use H322 for my .223 precision loads. If you want one load for both, you'll likely have to size the OAL to mag length for your AR. Otherwise you can have two different loads sized appropriately for each gun.
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I'd be amazed if one powder charge is the best "precision" load for both guns, too...
I'd be amazed if one powder charge is the best "precision" load for both guns, too...
True. Depends what the OP wants. A specific load for each gun or one "all around" load for both.
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m1a_scoutguy
01-19-14, 15:05
I have a little bit of reloading experience (all in handgun) and I have two questions. I have a M4 platform and a Remington 700 in .223 . I will be reloading for the 700 and was wondering if 1) there is a preferable powder difference for precision rounds (700) and m4. and 2) can I just reload for the 700 and shoot through the m4 if i want to. any help would be great. sorry if this question is a little rudimentary.
tk390
I would say you can settle on one powder for both guns,,but you really need to make your Bolt/Presicon load tailored for your bolt gun if you really want to get the most precision/accuracy out of it ! If you make rds for your M4,,they should work all day long in your bolt gun,but if you make rds for your bolt gun,,they probably won't work in your M4 with OAL being the main problem area ! With that said,,Varget is a great powder for both rifles,,I use AA2520 for both,,AA2230 also,,there are other options,,but these are powders I have used,I have also used IMR8208 with great results in both rifles,although I have used the 8208 more in my 223 Bolt gun than my AR,,but I have loaded AR rds with this powder just to try it out,,,I'm sure more guys will chime in !
eightmillimeter
01-19-14, 15:26
Tk390,
Any load between the two rifles you describe will have to be a compromise, but that does not mean you can't have good results with what you are trying to do.
Is there a certain component you already have on hand or wish to use? If so let us know we can point you in the right direction.
If you are starting from scratch I would start with a 55 grain Hornady V-Max or similar and either H335, H322, or Benchmark. Good chance a normal load from one of those options will work very well in most any .223.
Tk390,
Any load between the two rifles you describe will have to be a compromise, but that does not mean you can't have good results with what you are trying to do.
Is there a certain component you already have on hand or wish to use? If so let us know we can point you in the right direction.
If you are starting from scratch I would start with a 55 grain Hornady V-Max or similar and either H335, H322, or Benchmark. Good chance a normal load from one of those options will work very well in most any .223.
I agree with the 55 grain V-Max's, H-322 and H-335. I prefer AA2230, AA2460 or RL10 with the shorter barrel M-4 but H335 and IMR 4895 would also work. The limiting factor in my opinion is the different length of barrels between the 2 rifles. If the 700 has a 20 + inch barrel something like Varget or H4895 to get a little more velocity. Having one powder for everything is good but I personally would want to take advantage of the velocities you could get out of the 700 with a slightly slower powder that would be wasted in the shirt M-4. That's just me. kwg
I've used Varget, IMR4895, IMR4064 and H335 with success for 55gr .223. I can't say that any particular powder is more accurate than the other as there are too many other variables involved and they all seem to shoot well when I do my part. I've used a bit of IMR4198 for this round as well but not nearly as much as the others.
You should find one that meters well in whatever metering system you will use.....Varget can be a _itch to meter properly. H335 is a bit better but can make a real mess if you happen to spill any for whatever reason.
ETA: Yes, the 55gr Vmax bullets are really awesome.
A lot of you guys have been recommending the 55 vmax. For you guys that like the 55 try the 53 grain vmax. It has a much higher bc and it looks more like an amax. It was a new designs a couple years ago and IIRC it was specifically designed for the 223 cartridge.
Many of these comments already made the point well.
When reloading precision ammunition for a bolt gun, most handloaders will only neck size and bump the shoulders back slightly to allow the cartridges to chamber and provide the best accuracy. When reloading for AR style rifles, the cases should be full-length sized, or possibly even sized with a small base die. I believe that the individual rifle will and must determine which is necessary based on the way the chamber has been cut/reamed. If you are reloading for the 700 and only neck sizing the brass, you may (most likely will) have problems with that ammo in the M4 in the way of failure to feed and extract. This is dependent on how the chambers of the different rifles are cut.
If it were me, I would segregate the brass for each rifle, and work up the best load for each one individually. Even though this may be a pain in the posterior, this is the "best" way to maximize the accuracy and reliability of each weapon. If your standards are set for less than the best accuracy from each rifle, then you can: 1) full length size, 2) stick to .223 SAAMI pressures, 3) load only to M4 mag length, 4) be content with only saving money rather than achieving the best accuracy and saving money.
Perhaps you will be able to come up with a load that will work quite well in both. That sounds like what you are hoping for and I see no reason that you cant work towards that, just remember that you must stay within the parameters of both rifles. Sierra has loading recommendations for both AR15 and bolt guns online. Also, consult the printed manuals that you already own (should own). Remember to work up all loads according to the manual's instruction. The 55gr VMax has been recommended with h322 and h335 powders- I have achieved good accuracy with the 55gr VMax and h355. I have not used the 53gr, but, thanks to jstone, I might have to buy a hundred to work up a load.
.223 bolt rifles
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf
.223 AR Rifles
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf
H322 hands down. I load H322 for all our gas and bolt guns in .223 and it's sub MOA across the board... maybe a few chrome line ARs just at MOA... but we bulk back the load and shooti it in everything. SMKs and WOLF SRM primers are the other part of the formula.
Why wolf primers markm? Hardness?
Why wolf primers markm? Hardness?
They produce the greatest accuracy, and smallest velocity Standard Deviations. We did a cool little test a few years back, and WOLF kicked butt. WOLF primers do however suck at lighting H335 powder.... but if you're looking for accurate ammo, you're not likely running ball powder anyway.
I haven't worked with the H322 very much, but with the 69gr. SMK I was grouping about .9" at 100m/110yds. I got the load recommendation from Mark, and boy howdy is it a shooter! I would prefer to have H322 more readily available in my local shops; same thing with the Wolf primers, not locally available, so I'm using Rem. 7 1/2s. They work well, but I haven't had the chance to try the Wolf primers.
Mark, I know that you did a comparison with CCI and Wolf, but have you ever compared the Wolf and Remington 7 1/2 primers?
I don't think we tried Remington primers. Regular CCI, CCI BR-4, and WSR if I remember right. BR-4s just did not like the load... not even MOA. The other two were decent, and WOLF just blew them away.
It was really facinating to see just how big of a difference the primer can make.
Holy Crap! tons of information and thank you all. after reading all the post, and learning a lot, I realized that my question was not as clear as it could have been. Most questions have been answered. I fully plan on reloading for the two riffles separately. I will keep my brass separate and load to the different specifications for each riffle. The real question I was wondering was because of the different barrel length (26" vs 16") if there was a better powder for one over the other. Because of budget and logistics I would like to find one that does well in both guns. If I had to choose should I pick a slower burning powder and sacrifice on the shorter barrel or choose the faster burning powder and loose velocity on the 700. or is there a powder that is a happy medium? In fact is this an issue i should be worried with at all? I would like to maximize both platforms and may be living in a dream with one powder, however I would like to ask people who know before things go bang.
thanks for all the help
I'd seriously chop that 26" bbl to 20" and run H322. It's that good. With a 20" bolt gun, we get consistent gong hits at 1050 yards with H322 and 15.5 mils of come up.
On the other hand, I've never played with a long .223 barrel, so maybe I'd find a winner load for that length. ??
Not crimping the .223 round for the bolt gun may aid accuracy but may cause the bullet to set back in the AR. Markm has a fantastic load. If you experiment, remember not to exceed pressure levels compatible with the AR.
Not crimping my .223 bolt gun ammo more than doubled the group size and put me just outside of 2 MOA in a crimp test I did 2 weeks ago.
Really? Wow. I've never crimped 223, but I'm going to pick up a crimp die and try this myself.
Really? Wow. I've never crimped 223, but I'm going to pick up a crimp die and try this myself.
The Lee Factory Crimp Die is quite affordable and works well for me.
Beware that crimping generally raises chamber pressure and changes the characteristics of the pressure curve which in turn affects barrel harmonics. If you are on the edge of your rifle's pressure toleration zone you most likely will have pressure problems when you add a crimp. The change in pressure/barrel harmonics may necessitate that you do ladder tests again.
I crimp everything for my AR and I have worked up my loads accordingly.
I've found, in my experience, that normal crimps make no difference in muzzle velocity. I can only guess that would mean the chamber pressure isn't significantly impacted... but it may not be that simple. I tried no crimp, taper, and Factory crimp and couldn't get any noteworthy velocity changes.
As far as setting up the crimp die... a little goes a LONG way.... at least for me. My ammo barely shows markings from the FCD crimp collet on the neck. You can see it if you look closely, but that's it. Crimping to where you distort the bullet shape just doesn't strike me as doing any good. I've not tested this, but you can read any number of accounts on gun forums where excessive crimp does more harm than good.
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