View Full Version : Do I need to re -size?
If I am using cases that were fired in the AR they will be used in again, do they need to be re-sized? I will be trimming them.
I believe you will find that during the firing sequence the brass continues to stretch while there is still a lot of pressure in the chamber and the bolt is starting to move out of full battery. At a minimum you will have to neck size the brass.
I would resize before trimming. How much you need to resize depends on a lot of variables.
The general rule of thumb is that if you are using your brass in a bolt rifle neck size. If you are using your brass in an auto then full length size to ensure reliable feeding. The advantage to neck sizing only is that the brass is fire formed to match the chamber the brass was shot in....So, unless you filling up the rifle that shot the brass full length sizing is probably your best bet.
Of course there are exceptions and people generally do what they like.
I'd be highly surprised if your ammo would run at all without resizing... even in the same AR. I've choked my guns by not having the die set to size enough... let alone not sizing at all.
For .223, I size EVERYTHING back to a case guage... no matter if it's going to be fired in a bolt gun or an AR. That way there's no ammo out there that only works in a given gun.
If I only fired a bolt gun... then I'd custom size to that chamber.
I'd be highly surprised if your ammo would run at all without resizing... even in the same AR. I've choked my guns by not having the die set to size enough... let alone not sizing at all.
For .223, I size EVERYTHING back to a case guage... no matter if it's going to be fired in a bolt gun or an AR. That way there's no ammo out there that only works in a given gun.
If I only fired a bolt gun... then I'd custom size to that chamber.
This.
A bolt rifle has a cam motion on bolt close and open. This allows a case to be "pressed" into the chamber. Neck sizing only will work in this situation. An AR platform rifle lacks this cam motion for bolt fore and aft movement. The case must be able to "slip" into the chamber without resistance so that the bolt will travel fully forward before the bolt carrier movement turns it into the locked or "in battery" position. Full length resizing is required to accomplish this slip fit reliably.
I no longer neck size my 600 yard .223 slow fire CMP loads. The ammunition did not always feed without full length sizing and I had to check each and every round to ensure it would feed before a match.
I currently full length resize all of my rifle reloads except my .30 caliber 1,000 yard loads. Full length resizing helps to prevent headaches other people have mentioned.
Trimming won't affect chambering.
Fine if you do but it is done to keep the case neck from wedging in the barrel throat--not good. Normally you want to trim the cases down as they get longer with repeated firings, full length resizing is what will bring the case back to nominal dimensions after each firing, excepting length. I usually get 4 firings before I have to trim with mild loads and even then it is just few of the cases in a batch that have started to grow. As mentioned do this after you resize.
Yes, and bump the shoulders back at least 0.005. I tried to get away with minimal bumping and they would chamber and fire fine, but they would not extract if I manually pulled the handle. I had to bump the shoulder back even more. You WILL run into isses not resizing. You wouldn't have any neck tension either.
A case gauge is simplest. You don't have to measure anything. And you can gauge your favorite factory load... then match your resizing die to that load... or however you want to do it.
As long as your sized brass is in the min/max, you should be fine.
Traditional practice says that trimming occurs after resizing. One reason is that an unsized case neck would be a loose fit on the trimmer mandrel.
Traditional practice says that trimming occurs after resizing. One reason is that an unsized case neck would be a loose fit on the trimmer mandrel.
Also.. if anyone is running a regular die with an expander ball.... that nasty ball gives a little stretch when pulled back out of the neck during the sizing cycle. And... unsized brass won't fit into my Giraud trimmer right. It sticks and stops and won't cut right on almost every piece. I found this out by accident when having too many batches of brass in the rotation.
I've found for my semi auto I need to full length re size, for my bolt actions fired in same rifle I don't. A case gauge is a must it stops a lot of headaches and aggravation .
What are the better recommendations for case guages, and how do you "bump the shoulder back"? Does that use a different piece of equipment then a regular full-length die?
Sheridan Engineering has their .223 case gauge out now, best on the market IMO.
Bumping the shoulder is done with a FL size die or bushing die. If all you want to do is neck size and bump the shoulder you use a bushing die. You measure a piece of once fired brass from your chamber using something like the Hornady head space gauge. You take that measurement, subtract .002-.004 and set your sizing die/bushing die so that when you measure a piece of brass it is your original measurement minus your .002-.004(whatever you chose). Its more of an advanced reloading technique and is only applicable to that 1 gun.
I agree with MarkM on .223 brass just going back to SAAMI specs so it can be used in any gun. I have my size die setup to mimic the head space measurement on factory 5.56 M193 and so far through 10k pieces of brass I havent had any issues. I dont size after trimming, but I do run a neck expander mandrel though to set neck tension. Im trimming on Dillon dies which have tight necks so you have to reset neck tension after trimming with something. Its a pretty dang good setup.
I also set .308 to SAAMI spec because I shoot 3 different 308's. I use mostly same head stamp brass, but I dont differentiate between what came out of what gun.
Its nice having a Dillon 1050 with auto drive and Dillon RT1200 trimmers for brass prep. 1000 rounds an hour of fully prepped brass. Got to love it.
A case gauge is simplest. You don't have to measure anything. And you can gauge your favorite factory load... then match your resizing die to that load... or however you want to do it.
As long as your sized brass is in the min/max, you should be fine.
Still a novice reloader. I've been reading through the threads and see you guys mention a case gauge a lot (like the Wilson). But even after reading through the rest of this thread I can't quite figure out what it buys you. If you're loading for multiple rifles and/or NATO chambers, and you FL resize back to SAAMI (or SB resize), and at least spot check to make sure COAL is good, why do use a case gauge? Is the gauge really only for bolt and one-gun scenarios?
Still a novice reloader. I've been reading through the threads and see you guys mention a case gauge a lot (like the Wilson). But even after reading through the rest of this thread I can't quite figure out what it buys you. If you're loading for multiple rifles and/or NATO chambers, and you FL resize back to SAAMI (or SB resize), and at least spot check to make sure COAL is good, why do use a case gauge? Is the gauge really only for bolt and one-gun scenarios?
A case gauge is used to ensure the brass near the web is resized to the point the loaded cartridge will easily chamber. Brass from ammunition fired out of semi-automatic rifles tends to expand more than brass from bolt action rifles and even if it was fired from the same rifle semi-automatic reloaded brass will not always chamber. I learned this the hard way when I first started reloading.
A case gauge is used to ensure the brass near the web is resized to the point the loaded cartridge will easily chamber. Brass from ammunition fired out of semi-automatic rifles tends to expand more than brass from bolt action rifles and even if it was fired from the same rifle semi-automatic reloaded brass will not always chamber. I learned this the hard way when I first started reloading.
OK, that helps but still confused. So I think you mean the brass near the web is expanding outward so the diameter can be too big to chamber. Would FL resizing not take care of that?
Also, I had been thinking the gauge was just for length, but now I gather that it simulates a chamber so it'll catch diameter problems too. That right?
A full length die has quite a bit of adjustment, from neck size only to over sizing which will result in excessive headspace. The case gage (I use an LE Wilson) lets you adjust the die correctly so that the processed brass will fit a chamber correctly. Imagine driving without a speedometer, to me that is what reloading without a case gage would be.
Wilson gauges DO NOT GUARANTEE a case that is re-sized will chamber. Their diameter is VERY loose. All a Wilson gauge is for is head space(SAAMI) and trim length. If you ask Wilson they will confirm this. We have been dealing with this with the 300BLK stuff for over a year. Wilson gauges are head space/trim gauges ONLY, not a chamber gauge. Wilson gauges are good for what they are for, but people use them as "chamber" gauges and then are baffled when their ammo doesnt chamber. You can have a piece of brass pass a Wilson gauge, but the base of the case may be out of spec depending on your die's you use.
If you want a gauge that is min SAAMI spec for every dimension i.e. a chamber check gauge, the Sheridan gauge meets that dimension. Their gauges are VERY unforgiving. If a piece of brass goes completely into a Sheridan gauge it WILL CHAMBER unless you have some crazy tight, potentially out of spec chamber.
I pair the Sheridan gauges with Hornady headspace gauges to get the best shoulder bump measurements. In my case setting 5.56 and .308 back to spec to match a piece of known good factory ammo. These two pieces have been a great combination in my bulk brass processing.
How about this?
https://egwguns.com/wecs.php?store=232536056986&action=display&target=70150
How about this?
https://egwguns.com/wecs.php?store=232536056986&action=display&target=70150
At first glance, yes thats ok, however something like the Wilson headspace/trim gauge OR the Sheridan chamber gauge have a few steps in the base end of the die for min and max head space from the SAAMI spec. I dont think those EGW chamber checkers have that. In that EGW gauge you could have a piece of ammo drop in there and fit, but you wouldnt necessarily know if headspace is long, short or right on, you would simply know if it would go in the chamber or not.
A full length die has quite a bit of adjustment, from neck size only to over sizing which will result in excessive headspace. The case gage (I use an LE Wilson) lets you adjust the die correctly so that the processed brass will fit a chamber correctly. Imagine driving without a speedometer, to me that is what reloading without a case gage would be.
I don't understand how you can oversize a case. In case it matters, I'm using standard RCBS small base dies on a single stage. Seems like the only adjustment is the height of the expander, but the rest of the die (shoulder/neck/etc.) is either in spec or it's not (actually, I guess you can adjust how far into the press you screw the die, but you're limited by the shell holder hitting the bottom of the die, no?). Do more advanced dies let you adjust the shoulder height relative to the head then?
I just still don't follow how an average reloader using FL dies doing normal FL sizing (i.e., nothing "fancy") can get anything other than in-spec cases (other than neck length, which is trimmed if needed). Honestly, are case gauges kinda something for hardcore guys working at the end of the bell curve?
Not trying to be difficult or derail the thread... I can take this to PMs if anyone is willing.
Wilson gauges DO NOT GUARANTEE a case that is re-sized will chamber. Their diameter is VERY loose. All a Wilson gauge is for is head space(SAAMI) and trim length. If you ask Wilson they will confirm this. We have been dealing with this with the 300BLK stuff for over a year. Wilson gauges are head space/trim gauges ONLY, not a chamber gauge. Wilson gauges are good for what they are for, but people use them as "chamber" gauges and then are baffled when their ammo doesnt chamber. You can have a piece of brass pass a Wilson gauge, but the base of the case may be out of spec depending on your die's you use.
If you want a gauge that is min SAAMI spec for every dimension i.e. a chamber check gauge, the Sheridan gauge meets that dimension. Their gauges are VERY unforgiving. If a piece of brass goes completely into a Sheridan gauge it WILL CHAMBER unless you have some crazy tight, potentially out of spec chamber.
I pair the Sheridan gauges with Hornady headspace gauges to get the best shoulder bump measurements. In my case setting 5.56 and .308 back to spec to match a piece of known good factory ammo. These two pieces have been a great combination in my bulk brass processing.
I was speaking to the subject of full length resizing. Your info is more geared toward whether or not a small base die is needed. I know that if I set my FL die using the Wilson gage the case should chamber. If it doesn't then I know I have a diameter problem.
I don't understand how you can oversize a case. In case it matters, I'm using standard RCBS small base dies on a single stage. Seems like the only adjustment is the height of the expander, but the rest of the die (shoulder/neck/etc.) is either in spec or it's not (actually, I guess you can adjust how far into the press you screw the die, but you're limited by the shell holder hitting the bottom of the die, no?). Do more advanced dies let you adjust the shoulder height relative to the head then?
I just still don't follow how an average reloader using FL dies doing normal FL sizing (i.e., nothing "fancy") can get anything other than in-spec cases (other than neck length, which is trimmed if needed). Honestly, are case gauges kinda something for hardcore guys working at the end of the bell curve?
Not trying to be difficult or derail the thread... I can take this to PMs if anyone is willing.
The final sizing of the case can be controlled. The further you screw the die into the press, the smaller the outside case dimensions. It is normal to start with the die adjusted to contact the shell holder, then + 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn. This is a starting point only. I want my brass sized ALAP so I use gages and actual chambering of rounds to confirm that the die setting is correct. As you screw the die further into the press the amount of cam over is increased. Of course a limit will be reached, but most presses will allow the case to be sized well under spec before this happens. If you obtain a headspace gage you will be able to see this for yourself.
OK, that helps but still confused. So I think you mean the brass near the web is expanding outward so the diameter can be too big to chamber. Would FL resizing not take care of that?
Also, I had been thinking the gauge was just for length, but now I gather that it simulates a chamber so it'll catch diameter problems too. That right?
Yes, the case gauge checks both length and brass diameter.
The brass near the web can expand outward when the bolt on a semi-automatic is moving out of full battery fractions of a second after the round is fired. If the bolt remained in full battery until all of the gas was expended, like on a bolt action rifle, the brass would be fire formed to the chamber. Try inserting a fired brass from a cartridge fired in an AR in a case gauge and most likely the brass will not fit. The brass should stop when the case diameter is larger than the inside of the case gauge.
When using brass fired out of a different semi-automatic rifle, I sometimes have to use a small base die before the brass will chamber in my own rifles. When I purchased once fired Lake City military surplus brass, I had to use a small base die or the loaded cartridge would not chamber in my M1A.
Generally speaking, if the brass is from a cartridge fired in your own rifle, the brass should chamber in your own rifle after being resized by a full length sizing die. It almost always needs to be trimmed to length the first time the brass is reloaded. After that, the brass may or may not need to be trimmed to length after resizing.
I was speaking to the subject of full length resizing. Your info is more geared toward whether or not a small base die is needed. I know that if I set my FL die using the Wilson gage the case should chamber. If it doesn't then I know I have a diameter problem.
I was also speaking to full length sizing as I do nothing but full length size. There are full length dies out there that are so blown out at the bottom for easy feeding that they dont size correctly and the answer I hear from people is "get a small base die". My answer is "get a die that holds dimensions better". No need for small base in 99% of applications, just the need to buy better dies and not cheap out.
And nothing I have said changes the FACT that a Wilson gauge IS NOT a chamber gauge, its a headspace/trim length gauge which is OK for setting head space ONLY on a size die. That guarantees nothing as far as anything else with the case goes since it checks NO OTHER DIMENSION. It has nothing to do with small base or not because most small base dies size BELOW SAAMI spec. If you call Wilson they will explain the same thing that the only dimension they check is head space. That makes the Wilson gauge a shitty chamber gauge, since it doesnt mimic a chamber.
Again, Wilson gauges, for what they are designed to do are good gauges, accurate, etc... BUT people, especially new loaders, buy them and think "chamber gauge" and then are baffled when their ammo doesnt chamber.
So for the same money as a Wilson gauge I would still recommend a Sheridan gauge or Hornady headspace gauge kit for the calipers. IMO you get BETTER data with the Hornady kit and a more useful overall gauge with the Sheridan since it shows you headspace as well as min SAAMI chamber dimensions. I will not recommend Wilson gauges to anybody anymore when there are better products on the market for the same cost.
When you are talking to new guys about reloading that dont even have a case gauge of any kind you have to explain the difference to them and that was what I was really trying to get at. If people dont understand what a Wilson gauge is for, they will assume "chamber" gauge, but its not, its a headspace gauge. If people want a true "chamber" gauge, get a Sheridan. If all they want is to check headspace, the Wilson gauge will work out great OR get the Hornady headspace kit which I believe is the better way to go. Right tool for the job type of thing.
OK, that helps but still confused. So I think you mean the brass near the web is expanding outward so the diameter can be too big to chamber. Would FL resizing not take care of that?
Also, I had been thinking the gauge was just for length, but now I gather that it simulates a chamber so it'll catch diameter problems too. That right?
Just to make the point 1 more time. Wilson gauges only show head space, they DO NOT simulate a chamber in all dimensions. If you want a gauge that does that, get a Sheridan gauge that shows both head space AND actual SAAMI chamber diameter.
In my opinion, if you get a good sizing die... small base or a good standard die, you don't need anything more than a Dillon or Wilson case guage.
I have never had any web area dimension problems in any number of guns my ammo has been fired in.
As far as "oversizing" a case... To me that means turning the size die to where the shoulder is pushed back too far. This will greatly reduce case life. And when they start separating, it can be annoying... creating stoppages and stuff.
In my opinion, if you get a good sizing die... small base or a good standard die, you don't need anything more than a Dillon or Wilson case guage.
I have never had any web area dimension problems in any number of guns my ammo has been fired in.
As far as "oversizing" a case... To me that means turning the size die to where the shoulder is pushed back too far. This will greatly reduce case life. And when they start separating, it can be annoying... creating stoppages and stuff.
This is where I am. I'm not "high volume", but I do enough that efficiency is important. My chamber gage is my chamber. When setting a FL die the Wilson has always worked for me. Is it the best? Probably not, but it does what I, and many others, need it to do.
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