View Full Version : I need help. I bought .223/5.56 already primed!
I just got off work and was ready to go to town on some reloading. A company sent me already primed cases even though I didn't request it. I'm measuring some cases and they vary from 1.750 to 1.775. They should at least be trimmed to 1.760 correct? I have 5,000 to reload and I am bummed out.
How do I get these cases down to the proper length?
Any and all wisdom would be appreciated.
A lot of new brass I have purchased for reloading has required trimming. Check your brass with a case gauge and you should find it will not need to be resized, but may require trimming. I am afraid you will need a case trimmer. When trimming cases, cut them to trim length or a few thousandths of an inch over trim length.
Be wary of the primer while trimming the case to length.
Thank you for your reply! So the case trimmer I have is a Lee trimmer that I stick in my drill and requires that I poke into the primer pocket.
To sit touch with the shell holder. Are there trimmers available that don't require this? I hope I'm not screwed.
I agree. Check it with a case gauge & you may be fine with some of them. I've also deprimed/resized cases with live primers without any "surprises". Just go slow & be careful. 5000 would kind of suck to go through though.
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Thanks guys. I was hoping there was a way to not de-prime these but you gotta do what you gotta do I guess.
Thank you for the quick responses guys!
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-21-14, 18:28
0.015 I would load them up man, trim them on the next firing.
This is what I use. Nothing goes into the primer pocket and it's meant for use with a power drill.
http://www.littlecrowgunworks.com/wft.html
0.015 I would load them up man, trim them on the next firing.
That's what I was wondering. If I understand it correctly, you trim if it reaches 1.775 back down to below 1.760. So these would be fine? Please correct me if I'm wrong about the cases reaching 1.775 though.
I already sorted 2 piles. One pile under 1.760 and one pile over. The pile over 1.760 is definitely larger.
I guess I'm confused on when to trim it. Is it over 1.760 always or once it reaches 1.750.
Thanks guys.
This is what I use. Nothing goes into the primer pocket and it's meant for use with a power drill.
http://www.littlecrowgunworks.com/wft.html
Thank you Erik! That is exactly what I was thinking about.
I would NOT try to remove a live primer! but I don't think you have to...
with 5000 cases just pick a few hundred that are in spec and use those for your accuracy loads. load up the rest and trim them, if needed, after firing...
Thanks ra2bach. I wasn't sure if it was just flat out dangerous! There weren't that many in the 1.770-1.775 range. That's good to know. I'll fire off the long ones first and trim them so I can load accurately. I appreciate the warning!
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-21-14, 21:20
I would NOT try to remove a live primer! but I don't think you have to...
with 5000 cases just pick a few hundred that are in spec and use those for your accuracy loads. load up the rest and trim them, if needed, after firing...
Just fyi the primers will pop right out they only pop in one direction. I have done it many times.
Just fyi the primers will pop right out they only pop in one direction. I have done it many times.
Thanks for the heads up. They only pop in one direction so... I have a case trimmer that pokes in the case and is set to the depth of the base shell (through the primer hole); can I set the trimmer to the length of the inner part of the primer and trim it? So the point is resting on the primer. Sounds crazy to me but you guys seem to have more knowledge on how a primer works. In worried about running cases 1.775 is through my gun but the general consensus seems to be it should be alright.
Thanks for the heads up. They only pop in one direction so... I have a case trimmer that pokes in the case and is set to the depth of the base shell (through the primer hole); can I set the trimmer to the length of the inner part of the primer and trim it? So the point is resting on the primer. Sounds crazy to me but you guys seem to have more knowledge on how a primer works. In worried about running cases 1.775 is through my gun but the general consensus seems to be it should be alright.
Is this the trimmer you have? http://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools/case-trimming-tools/
I personally would not do what you asked above, but if someone else has done it then I'll stand corrected.
I don't care for those Lee trimmers. You might have a good excuse to just get a lathe style trimmer or the Little Crow version.
Just fyi the primers will pop right out they only pop in one direction. I have done it many times.
better you than me! but really, why should he have to? with a 5.56 chamber there shouldn't be any issue. the lengths he quoted should not be any kind of issue and that would just be wasting a primer and adding a couple of steps...
Rackham1.... Yes. That is the trimmer I have. I think your right. I believe common sense may be right on this one. I just need to accept my situation and get the proper tools. Not just want it to work with what I have. I appreciate your help everyone. I knew I came to the right place.
Not worth it to mess up my bcm recce or 18" ss410. Thank you again.
better you than me! but really, why should he have to? with a 5.56 chamber there shouldn't be any issue. the lengths he quoted should not be any kind of issue and that would just be wasting a primer and adding a couple of steps...
I sorted through it all and checked the lengths of each and every one of them. One week later my pile of brass 1.760 and less is a little more than the +1.760 so I have time to buy a trimmer that holds it by the neck to trim it. after finding this site and getting quality ARs from lurking this site I need to do the se with my reload setup. I need to buy quality to get it done right. Saving pennies and buying quality is the way to go. Thank you.
I would not be concerned about removing primers when trimming the brass to length. As long as you are not hammering on the brass on the end with the primer, you should not have any issues. Whatever you decide to do, wear safety glasses when decapping, trimming and reloading.
Trim the brass and load them. You can remove the primers later when they are spent.
This is nuts! Load that damned shit and shoot it. Trim it later. Christ... You should have seen some of the Black Hills Blue box ammo I've shot in the past. That brass was over length in the 1/16 inch arena. You didn't need to go to thousands with that stuff... and it worked fine.
Just another option if you decide to trim primed cases.
Lee Quick Trim Deluxe (http://www.titanreloading.com/quick-trim)
I'm using this for my .223 and .308 brass. I've never used anything else other than Lee's case gauge and trimmer that the OP has now so I can't say it's as good or better than any other options. It is significantly cheaper than anything else I've looked at.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-22-14, 10:06
better you than me! but really, why should he have to? with a 5.56 chamber there shouldn't be any issue. the lengths he quoted should not be any kind of issue and that would just be wasting a primer and adding a couple of steps...
I Agree with you, I was not trying to imply he needed to trim them. I was just adding in the fact, that he can pop LIVE primers right out while re-sizing, without them going off, I assume that was the concern, still I would air on the side of caution, don't hang your face over them and always wear safety glasses.
Just another option if you decide to trim primed cases.
Lee Quick Trim Deluxe (http://www.titanreloading.com/quick-trim)
I'm using this for my .223 and .308 brass. I've never used anything else other than Lee's case gauge and trimmer that the OP has now so I can't say it's as good or better than any other options. It is significantly cheaper than anything else I've looked at.
I forgot about that one & I actually own one. :eek:
It does work good, at least better than the Lee trimmer the OP has... got one of those too and I hate it. It's alright if you only have a couple to trim, but if you're cheap like me and have a shit ton to trim, that Lee Quick Trim is way better.
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Yeah... popping a live primer is not a problem. But in this case, it'd be nuts to do so just for a trim.
Dang. That's a good one. I just checked this thread right after I ordered the WFT for $69.99.
Oh well. Buy once cry once right? After seeing that lee trimmer I just may go have a good cry. Lol
Dang. That's a good one. I just checked this thread right after I ordered the WFT for $69.99.
Oh well. Buy once cry once right? After seeing that lee trimmer I just may go have a good cry. Lol
No way, that new Lee trimmer looks OK and a huge improvement over the one you have, but I'd much rather have the WFT (which is on my shopping list, too).
The Lee Quick Trim works well and is much faster and easier than the other Lee option but I would have to bet money the WFT is worth every penny. It just looks like a great tool.
Buy the Giraud if you want a good cry. :(
Buy the Giraud if you want a good cry. :(
I had roughly 1K to trim awhile back & I almost pulled the trigger on one. I'm too tight so I passed on it & toughed it out.
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Even 1k can suck on a Giraud if it's once fire XM193 brass or any mil 5.56 hot stuff. You have to let the machine cut so much of that stretched ass brass that it's time consuming. I bet the cut time is 3-4 times longer on XM193 once fired compared to the same brass on the subsequent loadings.
After you get your brass into rotation though.... it's super fast.
Yeah, it was once fired LC. Did a hundred or so each night, along with other prep work, plus a few beers & got it done. Smooth sailing from here.
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Beers are a critical in the case prep process. Much more important than the equipment.
Especially with the equipment I have. Tunes too.
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It's ordered and will be here Friday. Thanks everyone for your input. I value what is said on this forum a lot more than others. Usually a thread like this on any other forum would have been de-railed and we would be 7 pages deep into .223 vs 5.56 lol. I'll let you know how it works and spread the word about what to do if you have primed cases that need trimming. Once again thanks fellas!
Like the man said, shoot it. Decades ago, I bought a large batch of Win 44 mag unprimed brass. With my new micrometer, I was horrified to learn that case length varied .003 within the batch. Buying a manual lathe type trimmer and really turning the crank for hours produced a new batch of trimmed cases which varied .0025 within the batch. Case rims add to variation. Reliability of your equipment, its adjustment sensitivity, cutter tool hardness and sharpness, its rigidity, how its mounted, and your technique are all big variables.
Some vendors sell .223 primed cases salvaged from ammo by pulling the bullet, saving the powder and bullets for resale, and then selling you the primed brass as unfired--which it technically is. This trick is ok. Just remember to debur and chamfer case mouth. You may discover that sealant residue remains in the case necks.
It's very likely that these primers are crimped into the case. I advise against removing crimped in live primers.
Like the man said, shoot it. Decades ago, I bought a large batch of Win 44 mag unprimed brass. With my new micrometer, I was horrified to learn that case length varied .003 within the batch. Buying a manual lathe type trimmer and really turning the crank for hours produced a new batch of trimmed cases which varied .0025 within the batch. Case rims add to variation. Reliability of your equipment, its adjustment sensitivity, cutter tool hardness and sharpness, its rigidity, how its mounted, and your technique are all big variables.
Some vendors sell .223 primed cases salvaged from ammo by pulling the bullet, saving the powder and bullets for resale, and then selling you the primed brass as unfired--which it technically is. This trick is ok. Just remember to debur and chamfer case mouth. You may discover that sealant residue remains in the case necks.
It's very likely that these primers are crimped into the case. I advise against removing crimped in live primers.
Thanks for the advice. I bought the WFT so I'm going to set it at 1.750 and run all through it. I measured about 200 of the ones shorter than 1.760 and none were shorter than 1.750 I'll definitely check for sealant.
Do you guys separate your .223 and 5.56 and put different grains of powder in them? I've only loaded my own .223 casings. This is my first purchase of brass and it came with 5.56
Some people do but mostly for high precision loads. There's no safety concern if you don't separate them. I never have and haven't had any problems. There are more threads about that if you do a search.
Do you guys separate your .223 and 5.56 and put different grains of powder in them? I've only loaded my own .223 casings. This is my first purchase of brass and it came with 5.56
Thanks Eric. Will do. From what I've read there is case thickness and throat tolerances to be concerned about. Again, I didn't know if it was a safety concern or a precision decision.
It's very likely that these primers are crimped into the case. I advise against removing crimped in live primers.
The only downside I've found to decapping crimped primers is they get too deformed to reuse. The cup diameter narrows and they have no pocket tension.
Totally agree with MarkM - load it and shoot it.
I looked at 8 different reamers I have & their corresponding prints - every one except one shows and ABSOLUTE MAX case length of 1.7720" The only short one is the .223 Rem Match reamer by PTG at 1.760"
Do not bother wasting time on trimming it - do so AFTER you shoot it all and BTW I'd trim to 1.760 - 1.765 range - no need to go as short as 1.750. Waste of time / effort / brass / beer.
BTW - the reamers I checked were:
223 Rem (Clymer)
556 NATO (Clymer)
556 NATO - Compass Lake (JGS)
223 Wylde (JGS)
223 Rem (PTG)
556 NATO (JGS)
556 NATO (PTG)
My bet is your chamber is one of these - I'd bet a case of home brew on it....
Do not bother wasting time on trimming it - do so AFTER you shoot it all and BTW I'd trim to 1.760 - 1.765 range - no need to go as short as 1.750. Waste of time / effort / brass / beer.
Yeah.. Our bolt gunsmith encouraged us to run out to 1.760" instead of 1.750" to get more caseneck/bullet contact. He said it'd make for more accurate ammo.
Yeah.. Our bolt gunsmith encouraged us to run out to 1.760" instead of 1.750" to get more caseneck/bullet contact. He said it'd make for more accurate ammo.
Amen - the reloading books all quote very very conservative numbers so any neophyte won't inadvertantly crimp his case neck into the bullet while chambered - it really is ridiculous how much they advise to trim.
Same same with load data - for shits and giggles look at OLD reloading manuals to see how far the books have backed off on loads - especially prevalent in handgun data.
LOAD 'EM n Shoot 'em!
It's a shame too. People won't take the load max data serious when you nerf it. I don't recommend newer loaders do this... but I've honestly just started a new load at published max because the published numbers are so conservative.
I just wanted to update the thread. My WTF came today. I ordered it on Wednesday afternoon on amazon. That thing is a dream. The only reason I'm here writing this is I drained two 18v dewalt batteries. I never experienced this with my old lee trimmer. My hands would give out and cramp before I got through one battery. I want to thank everyone for your help! I trimmed to 1.755. Did about 800 of them. My ready to load bin is looking very good.
I hope I never get primed brass ever again. I didn't like how some of the case necks were smushed. I threw out some that I know a resizing die would fix.
Thanks everyone!
I just wanted to update the thread. My WTF came today. I ordered it on Wednesday afternoon on amazon. That thing is a dream. The only reason I'm here writing this is I drained two 18v dewalt batteries. I never experienced this with my old lee trimmer. My hands would give out and cramp before I got through one battery. I want to thank everyone for your help! I trimmed to 1.755. Did about 800 of them. My ready to load bin is looking very good.
I hope I never get primed brass ever again. I didn't like how some of the case necks were smushed. I threw out some that I know a resizing die would fix.
Thanks everyone!
I threw out some that I know a resizing die would fix.
I'll take that perfectly usable primed brass off your hands. ;)
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Maybe already covered:
One reason the cases may have measured long could be the result of the primer. Always best to measure case length sans primer (fired or live). Could be just enough primer material exposed to mess with your calipers.
"ASSuming the neck tensions were 100% good to go (and round), I would probably have just loaded 'em up as practice rounds. But knowing me, I also might have lightly lubed the necks and ran them through a backed out (and seldom used) Dillon trim die - no trim motor. Just to tweak the necks - and only because I already have one in a spare tool head. Better with some extra tension than not enough (the Dillon trim die takes case necks down a little more than standard...).
Edit: Worst case scenario, there is a Giraud case trimmer in the garage that can solve any such problems in a heartbeat. Food for the future.
Maybe already covered:
One reason the cases may have measured long could be the result of the primer. Always best to measure case length sans primer (fired or live). Could be just enough primer material exposed to mess with your calipers.
"ASSuming the neck tensions were 100% good to go (and round), I would probably have just loaded 'em up as practice rounds. But knowing me, I also might have lightly lubed the necks and ran them through a backed out (and seldom used) Dillon trim die - no trim motor. Just to tweak the necks - and only because I already have one in a spare tool head. Better with some extra tension than not enough (the Dillon trim die takes case necks down a little more than standard...).
Edit: Worst case scenario, there is a Giraud case trimmer in the garage that can solve any such problems in a heartbeat. Food for the future.
if you have protruding primers, you've got more problems than case length...
if you have protruding primers, you've got more problems than case length...
Correct, and why the case length should be verified w/o a primer. Also, a huge difference in a high primer at ~.050" and one with a bit of raised metal on the edge (or even a few thou from being seated correctly).
I'll take that perfectly usable primed brass off your hands. ;)
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He is right. Don't toss new brass with dented case mouths unless they are badly damaged. I have loaded new brass that required straightening the case necks and it worked just fine.
ra2bach/Markm
Theres a reason why they post MAX case lengths in manuals! Max for .223 Rem is 1.760" .:mad: OP just trim any case you have to the Max trim and load shoot as normal. Sucks for you but get it done. If you must deprime to do it- do it! Depriming live primers is not an issue, been doing it for many years never had a problem. Now if your using a Progressive press just be more careful -IE remove/empty your powder disspenser just in case.:rolleyes:
Correct, and why the case length should be verified w/o a primer. Also, a huge difference in a high primer at ~.050" and one with a bit of raised metal on the edge (or even a few thou from being seated correctly).
what? no... a properly seated primer is recessed in the case. it would have no bearing on case length. if any part of a primer is proud of the case that needs to be dealt with ASAP...
what? no... a properly seated primer is recessed in the case. it would have no bearing on case length. if any part of a primer is proud of the case that needs to be dealt with ASAP...
Jez-Louise - my point that you don't want to understand is: 1. He won't reliably know the case length unless he decaps the live primer first - at least on a few samples . Been there done that, btw. And it's not a big deal as has been mentioned by several. Just use some common sense - with eye protection being the first of several.
And point number 2 - If you reload (especially on a progressive), you will see high primers from time to time. The Huge Difference is in one that will A): cause a stoppage or worse (and should not be loaded in a firearm - assuming you even see it first); and B): one that's a blond one high and can be fired rather than scrapped.
Of course it's anyone prerogative if they want to be so safe they never cross the street.
ra2bach/Markm
Theres a reason why they post MAX case lengths in manuals! Max for .223 Rem is 1.760" .:mad: OP just trim any case you have to the Max trim and load shoot as normal. Sucks for you but get it done. If you must deprime to do it- do it! Depriming live primers is not an issue, been doing it for many years never had a problem. Now if your using a Progressive press just be more careful -IE remove/empty your powder disspenser just in case.:rolleyes:
reloading manuals are required to tell you to trim to nominal length but I have fired more rounds than I can remember over that length without issue. it makes a difference what your chamber is. if he's shooting 5.56 chamber this is all a waste of of time and material (I have removed live primers but I don't reload them).
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556and223chambers_zps5ee6a6c4.gif
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556and223chambers_zps5ee6a6c4.gif
I'll admit, I just threw up in my mouth a little when I realized that was one of Big Ed's show-n-tell pictures. :(
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Buy the Giraud if you want a good cry. :(
or the dillon 1200b that doesn't even come with a trim die! buy that separate too!
Would suggest getting a Sinclair Chamber Length Gage Insert to determine the length of [U]your[U] chamber and trim your cases accordingly. You will likely find. as I did. that you don't need to trim as often as you thought. I'm only using this on 'blaster' ammo.
ra2bach
And what does the SAMMI spec say? Let me enlighten you 1.760-.020 not plus or minus, MINUS! So 1.760" is as long as your brass should ever be to be safe! I'm glad the op took the good advice an trimmed his cases. Atleast he'll know there little chance he'll hurt his gun or himself with some of the bad advice given.:rolleyes:
ra2bach
And what does the SAMMI spec say? Let me enlighten you 1.760-.020 not plus or minus, MINUS! So 1.760" is as long as your brass should ever be to be safe! I'm glad the op took the good advice an trimmed his cases. Atleast he'll know there little chance he'll hurt his gun or himself with some of the bad advice given.:rolleyes:
It took till just now but all cases have been put through the WFT at around 1.753. That's the closest I could get the trimmer adjusted. Man that thing works like a charm. I'm glad I had 3 dewalt 18v batteries and 2 chargers. I was hammering through them. I'm sure the didn't HAVE to be trimmed but I just wanted to ease my mind. I didn't want to go through 5000 rounds wondering "what if this cartridge is the one" lol. I don't quite have enough experience yet to know what needs to be done for safety and what needs to be done for just accuracy just yet so I kinda take every process very seriously. No one I know reloads so The Internet is my only mentor. One day I would like to experiment and get that perfect load set for each gun but right now, I have a very few recipes and they work so I don't stray away from those. One of those things is case length. I've only used cases trimmed to 1.750 so in my mind, everything else doesn't work. Lol
Plus, this site has gotten me to buy pretty bcm rifles so I don't want to put e-85 fuel in them so to speak.
Thanks everyone for leading me to do things right!
ra2bach
And what does the SAMMI spec say? Let me enlighten you 1.760-.020 not plus or minus, MINUS! So 1.760" is as long as your brass should ever be to be safe! I'm glad the op took the good advice an trimmed his cases. Atleast he'll know there little chance he'll hurt his gun or himself with some of the bad advice given.:rolleyes:
Show ONE SINGLE CASE of kabizzle with untrimmed brass. Black hills has sold gazzilions of rounds of ammo ridiculously beyond the 1.760 max, and never a single kaboomsky.
Ideally, YES. You don't want pressure variances with sloppy brass. But it's not a dangerous scenario within reason..... Common chambers, etc. You'd really have to stack some factors up just right to make it a real concern.
Would suggest getting a Sinclair Chamber Length Gage Insert to determine the length of [U]your[U] chamber and trim your cases accordingly. You will likely find. as I did. that you don't need to trim as often as you thought. I'm only using this on 'blaster' ammo.
I view trimming as more of a consistency excersize than a chamber fitment process. Trimming gets more round to round consistency in neck contact with the bullet. Most factory chambers have such ridiculous leades, that you probably couldn't get brass long enough to create mayhem.
ra2bach
And what does the SAMMI spec say? Let me enlighten you 1.760-.020 not plus or minus, MINUS! So 1.760" is as long as your brass should ever be to be safe! I'm glad the op took the good advice an trimmed his cases. Atleast he'll know there little chance he'll hurt his gun or himself with some of the bad advice given.:rolleyes:
lighten up francis... I know what spec is and I've read reloading manuals. I was also shooting these guns 20 years ago with open sights out to 600 yards and you don't get there with store bought ammo so this isn't my first go 'round. if you want to educate me on this, fine, information delivered. but don't think your book is telling me (or anyone else who has been doing this awhile) he's going to blow up his gun. 15/1000 is not enough to sweat for the first firing...
ra2bach
And I've been reloading /shooting alot longer! Bad advice is still bad advice. What you do with your guns/loads is your buisness just don't get other folks into bad habits! Having an AR come apart isn't fun and is alot easier to do then a bolt gun. :rolleyes:
Again... there is NO EXAMPLE of this ever happening.
I just set my Giraud up to cut to 1.757" to try and milk a little more neck/bullet surface contact. .003" under MAX.... kind of a middle ground length to accomodate the wide range of guns my ammo gets fired in.
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