SS109

[Razorhunter]

What's the deal with this Sellier and Bellot SS109 ammo in the 20 rd green boxes that my dealer just got in?
I'm not sure why they don't list the bullet weight in grains on the box, but they don't. Guess I'll have to Google that one.
Is SS109 considered to be decent ammo, crap ammo, or what? What was it made/designed for?
I know it's not Mk262, but how good is $10.99 for a box of 20 rds? I'm sure it's cheaper by the case, if I were to inquire.
What's the green tip for? Appearance, or just identification purposes only?
Thanks guys.

[markm]

ss109 is the bullet designation I thought. :confused:
(62 grain FMJBT with steel penetrator.)

In any case, the price is ridiculous. I wouldn't pay that price for USGI Lake City ammo, let alone S&B.

[Failure2Stop]

Demigod hit it on the head.
62gr FMJBT w/ penetrator.

It was designed for the M249 SAW to defeat Russian body-armor at 300+ meters. It does that OK, but for anything else it is sub-par and waaaaay too expensive for training ammo.

But hey, you might love it for whatever you are using it for.

[Robb Jensen]

What's the deal with this Sellier and Bellot SS109 ammo in the 20 rd green boxes that my dealer just got in?
I'm not sure why they don't list the bullet weight in grains on the box, but they don't. Guess I'll have to Google that one.
Is SS109 considered to be decent ammo, crap ammo, or what? What was it made/designed for?
I know it's not Mk262, but how good is $10.99 for a box of 20 rds? I'm sure it's cheaper by the case, if I were to inquire.
What's the green tip for? Appearance, or just identification purposes only?
Thanks guys.


SS109 is the projectile, M855 is the loaded cartridge. SS109 is a 62gr which has a small steel penetrator in the nose of the round. The green paint on the tip of it is for US forces to designate it from M193 ball (55gr.) The old 1x12 twist M16s and M16-A1s will not stabilize M855. A faster twist rate is required to stabilize the longer and heavier cartridge, 1x9 or faster works.

For stabilizing the M855s cousin round, the M856 tracer (orange tip) an even faster twist is required..... the US military uses 1x7 twist because of the M856 tracer for use in the M249 and stayed with 1x7 when adopting the M16A2 and newer rifles in 5.56mm NATO. The projectile from a M856 tracer is even longer than newer 77gr MK262. IIRC for some reason in the 80's there was a requirement for the new round to penetrate a steel pot helmet at 600meters the M855 did it.

Other NATO countries (i.e. Canada and England) that use SS109 projectiles but never had M193 or 5.56mm rifles with 1x12 twist in their inventory don't use green paint on the tips as they have no reason to designate it from any other ammo.

[Razorhunter]

Thanks guys. I appreciate it. That was exactly the info I needed.

[R Moran]

Demigod hit it on the head.
62gr FMJBT w/ penetrator.

It was designed for the M249 SAW to defeat Russian body-armor at 300+ meters. It does that OK, but for anything else it is sub-par and waaaaay too expensive for training ammo.

But hey, you might love it for whatever you are using it for.

F2S,
I'm not arguing with you, but..

I think its interesting that there are differing opinions on this round. In aclass with Jim Smith, of Spartan Tactical, he mentioed he liked the M855.
In Kyle LAmbs book, he also mentions he thinks its a good round.

Paul Howe, mentioned his dislike of it in BlackHawk Down, but never mentioned it in the few classes I've taken with him.

I wonder why the differing opinions of guys with similar backgrounds?

Bob

[Failure2Stop]

I wonder why the differing opinions of guys with similar backgrounds?


I have used the M855 to good result, and would definately take it over a varmint round. If you hit 'em where it counts, caliber and construction don't matter as much. But better performing rounds make those hits easier and give a greater degree of error in shot placement.

Pros of M855-
Deep penetration
Low failure to fire rate
Waterproof

Cons-
Late yaw
Inconsistent wound pattern
High velocity required for fragmentation
Sub-par accuracy

Add to these the price demanded for LC M855. I would prefer Mk262 Mod 1 far above M855 for real use, and when I have to pay for each shot I train with XM193 (for close stuff).

The new fat kids on the block, such as the MK262 and 5.56 TAP greatly reduce or eliminate the Cons of M855 (and 5.56 in general) except for fleet yaw variation and barrier penetration.

This is simply my experience combined with data from smarter guys than me.

[R Moran]

F2S,
Trackin, I just find it all interesting, for example...

On another forum, a Vn vet complains endlessly about the M16fow and the 5.56, a former co-worker of mine, a 173d Abn vet, from the same year as the former, says they never had a problem w/ the M16 and they "needed bulldozers to bury all the bodies" they killed with the 5.56.

Many of my current co-workers have just returned from tours overseas, and generally have no problem with either, and my good friend, a recently retired 1sgt, says his DM generally left the M14 behind, and killed plenty with the 5.56.

For personal use I generally just used 55grn ball, and used to be issued it, I recently got a supply of 75grn TAP NATO, so will zero it, but still have about 10,000 rounds of 55grn to shoot up.

Again, I find the conflicting reports interesting, its also kinda funny when some Internet know it all's on a certain other forum, think they know more then the likes of Smith and Lamb.

Bob

[Failure2Stop]

Bob-
I'm feelin' ya.
From the internet it would seem that M855 is barely acceptable to be used against rabid prarie-dogs or it is a heat-seeking circular saw.

I am firmly in the shot placement over caliber/construction camp, but I am happy to embrace improvements to my effectiveness.

(ETA- A certain group noticed that their complaints about M855 immediately dropped when they equipped their weapons with magnified optics. Hmmm.)

Have fun converting those 10,000 55 grainers into brass :cool: .

[R Moran]

a heat-seeking circular saw.



Years ago, during the first Gulf War, once the air war had started, my BN, was preparing to move to the Iraqi border, my platoon had been w/o an Lt for some time, so guess what happens? They send us a transpo LT, straight from who knows where, good guy, but....
He was loading mags, and prepping gear, as the rest of us were breaking camp, he turned to the RTO and asked what was the difference between the Green Bullets and the Red ones.

The RTO explained, the green ones were Titanium piercing, and the red ones were heat seeking. Good times.

F2S,
I'm with you on shot placement, but unlike some others who insist it everything, I'll take what ever advantage I can get also. I have no qualms w/ carrying 55grn ball.

If shot placement were everything, we'd all be carrying wrist rockets.

Bob

[ffhounddog]

I have alot of 55 grain stuff. My reloads are 55 grain because I got the bullets cheap when I was buying.

Now my go to is 62 grain TAP Barrier. I was going with 75 grain TAP but my wife's AR does not run it as well. Point of Aim from the TAP Barrier and 55 grain not that much of a problem.

I do have some 75 grain TAP loader in Home AR rounds but after that its Hornaday TAP barrier, and that 63 grain Federal that was out for a bit. I go point of aim the same as teh TAP Barrier so I got a 500 round case of the other stuff for cheaper that TAP.

After than I have 1.5K SS109 Olympic and 1K M855 ADCOM. They all work well in my ARs.

Then I have the 55 grain stash. Well I have alot because it was cheap. 50.00 for a BP of Wolf M193 and then PPU came in 07/08 for 64-66 a BattlePack.

Then the release of alot of M193 came along as well and so I started buy M193.

I have loading in my 20 rounders IMI 55 grain M193. Right now at 35 mags.


See I am just confussed because until recently All the US M855 and SS109 was M855PD that I would not buy because of the horror stories. PPU has M855 but for 9 bucks more than M193.

Confussed yet I am. I might just get 55 grain for store ammo due to that fact that I can get it local verse only on the Interweb.