View Full Version : College (and the cost thereof)
http://news.yahoo.com/college-worth-104500677--politics.html
Looking at the above article, it's noteworthy (or depressing, depending on your point of view) that the cost of higher education has gone up 1120% in 35 years, more than almost any other item. It does make me wonder how the majority of kids can afford it.
I'm 53 years old and a career Blue Collar guy (including 20 years in the US Air Force), so I passed on the whole college scene/experience. But I've been continuously employed since I was 17 so I'm grateful for that. Seems a lot of college graduates these days don't even have that.
So, without a scholarship or some other similar means, how do kids manage a college education these days without going into debt that will swallow them for years?
I put money aside in UTMA accounts for my kids starting when they were born. Just set up a 529 plan for my newborn granddaughter.
thopkins22
01-24-14, 14:51
Parents...and as you said most go into debt for an education that in most fields will not yield much more income. Shy of engineering, law, and medicine, there really aren't many degrees that inherently qualify you to do something you otherwise could not have. I'd like to see more emphasis put on apprenticeships and trade schools in trades that traditionally haven't had those.
It's the greatest argument against the government subsidies that currently exist. Universities can charge whatever they like because students are guaranteed the ability to borrow it. Literally anyone can "afford" any education.
My ex is the most successful and highly paid twenty eight year old I know...frankly she's more successful than most people I know regardless of age. For her last two jobs, she not only didn't list her degree on her resume, she didn't even mention attending university at all. I'm not saying she succeeded in spite of college, but her desire to rule the freaking world was far more beneficial for her than four years of smoking pot and occasionally going to a class.
Some actually work while going to college . Like every stripper I ever met.
But seriously, I worked 12-120 hours/week as an EMT during my college years (depending on course load or course). Lots of student loans. A few actually get scholarships. Apparently there is "lots of money out there" if you look, but when I looked ... pretty much I couldn't find squat for a white male from a middle class family. Suprise suprise.
SomeOtherGuy
01-24-14, 15:19
Shy of engineering, law, and medicine, there really aren't many degrees that inherently qualify you to do something you otherwise could not have.
And right now, going into law or medicine is generally a dubious to bad financial decision. Law is simply overpopulated, medicine is being killed by government intervention. Engineering is iffy - if you can get an engineering job it's still a good career field (relatively to the cost of a bachelor's), but many employers try to exploit foreigners on H1B (etc.) visas and either won't hire US citizens or will try to hire them at the $10/hour that the foreign ones will work for.
It's the greatest argument against the government subsidies that currently exist. Universities can charge whatever they like because students are guaranteed the ability to borrow it. Literally anyone can "afford" any education.
+1000
SomeOtherGuy
01-24-14, 15:23
So, without a scholarship or some other similar means, how do kids manage a college education these days without going into debt that will swallow them for years?
Not many do. The few who do either (1) have a trust fund (wealthy parents) or (2) closely control costs while working lots of hours at a high paying job - whether that's stripping or skilled blue collar work depends on the person.
College costs are outrageous, and it's driven by a combination of easy student loan availability, selling to a laughably unsophisticated customer base (doe-eyed teens), and excessive demand due to the mantra that EVERYONE SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE instead of just sending the much smaller portion of students who are both smart and academic-oriented. (I probably don't need to tell people here that you can be smart and not do well in, or even hate, the academic setting.)
Recent college graduate here that has yet to find a career type job. If I could do it over, I would have either joined the military or went to trade school to be an aviation mechanic. I despise the corporate world; I don't want miserably sit behind a desk for 40 years. Obviously if a job comes along, I will take it, but I will not spend the rest of my life working to make someone else millions of dollars.
I think the university system has realized people will never stop getting a higher education, so they are cashing in on it. Thankfully, my parents set aside a college fund since I was born, so I'm not $80,000 in debt w/ student loans.
Here in Texas, the state pays part of the tuition at public universities. Just think if they didn't...
Your average college-age teen from the Facebook generation probably doesn't want to be a diesel mechanic or drive a forklift somewhere.
It's a tough gig out there even with a college education, but it sure as hell is not made easier with only a high school education. People have to be more creative how and where they get their education, but I'd say it's still worth doing if getting a college education is important to you. It costs more, and no longer automatically means a job is waiting, and the cost/benefit getting smaller, but I'd still recommend it. But, it's important to know that is what you want, and having all manner of jobs when you're younger helps to give one an idea of what they can see doing for a living and not. I like to tell younger types that doing various jobs will often not show you what you want to do, but it will show you what you don't want to do. I think taking a year or two between high school and college also not a bad idea to get your bearings and see if maybe the military, or various trades are a better fit.
For me, I learned, by working as a painter, roofer, electricians helper, bar tender, construction, etc, etc, that I had better find a way to make a living with my brain because none of those jobs seemed like anything I'd want to do for decades, hence my advice above I often give. Medical history prevented the military option. Various LEO friends encouraged that as an option, but I felt I really didn't have the temperment for it.
SilverBullet432
01-24-14, 16:30
Jobs in my field in my area start at 40-50 $/hr. With degree. Ive got one more semester to go! :D has not been cheap though, but thankfully I am not in debt.
My career has nothing to do with my degree. My degree is a fall back for me I guess. Is it worth the money I spent on it??? Probably not (went to a private school), I should've joined the military or went to a trade school (welding, tech, ect).
Oh well...hindsight is 20/20, at least I didn't get suckered in to a masters lol.
If you cant afford it, serve your country for 4 years. Who knows how long that option will last with all types of budget cuts.
I have a Bachelors and a Masters and neither have a direct relationship to what I am doing. The 4 years of military leadership does though.
Lucky for me also, joining the military as a resident of Texas allows me to give 4 years of college at a university in Texas that is state funded to a child thanks to the Hazelwood Act.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-24-14, 17:32
I am using the GI bill, others I have spoken to, who's parents are not fronting the cost, go down one of two paths. The first being two years at a community collage and 2 years at a university to lower cost, or they take the debt. I was just speaking with a girl at my school yesterday, she is in the nursing program and already owes 98k to another school. After she completes the next 2 years at my school she will owe at least another 60k. Also a lot of employers will pay to advance your education, my neighbor was an RN, her employer (strong hospital) sent her to Harvard for her masters, with a contract that she would work for them for the next 6 years. All of the local hospitals here have programs where you work for them for so many years and they will pay for your advance schooling. Another buddy's wife is a professor at RIT so he attends there for free, he has got his BA and is working on his MBA. My wife's employer also paid for her BA in criminal justice, they gave her half the tuition in her check for 2 years (which we deducted and set aside, as it was taxed) then two years after getting her BA they sent her a check for the rest, which was also taxed, but you write it off. These are just a few ways I am aware of, also service in the peace corps or americore gives you a paid 4 year education on the federal gov, as well as you can now defer your gi bill to your kids or spouse.
thopkins22
01-24-14, 18:33
Engineering is iffy
Go petroleum, chemical, or mechanical...and then be willing to move to the oil patch and work offshore. ;) There literally aren't enough students coming out of school with petroleum engineering degrees to fill the available jobs right now. A whole lot of English majors trying to get jobs though.... Hell there are a lot of safety officer jobs at $65,000 we used fill from within the field that are purely going to vets with no knowledge of the industry nor regulations but at least we know they can enforce/follow rules and are willing to work.
Agreed on law and medicine, my main point was that they are professions that genuinely require the educational hoops.
ForTehNguyen
01-24-14, 18:45
not enough engineers being produced in college, not the most glamorous or easiest major. Engineering companies cannot find enough down here
SilverBullet432
01-24-14, 21:36
Go petroleum, chemical, or mechanical...and then be willing to move to the oil patch and work offshore. ;) There literally aren't enough students coming out of school with petroleum engineering degrees to fill the available jobs right now. A whole lot of English majors trying to get jobs though.... Hell there are a lot of safety officer jobs at $65,000 we used fill from within the field that are purely going to vets with no knowledge of the industry nor regulations but at least we know they can enforce/follow rules and are willing to work.
Agreed on law and medicine, my main point was that they are professions that genuinely require the educational hoops.
I was doing mechanical engineering. Then I heard about instrumentation & automation and switched in a heartbeat. Sure an engineer designs the layout, but I like hands on work that pays $50 an hour!!
ForTehNguyen
01-24-14, 22:21
I was doing mechanical engineering. Then I heard about instrumentation & automation and switched in a heartbeat. Sure an engineer designs the layout, but I like hands on work that pays $50 an hour!!
automation engineer here
I can honestly say that the massive pile of government backed loans is solely responsible for the rate at which the cost of an education has rocketed upwards. It's simple economics. More dollars chasing the same resources.
You cut off the tap, and schools would be cutting tuition massively. Private industry still funds, and would continue to fund, a lot of student loans, but the number would drop insanely fast if Uncle Sam was out of the game.
SilverBullet432
01-24-14, 23:34
automation engineer here
Awesome! I love spending time in our lab working with the PLCs and valves & transmitters!
The HMI makes everything a breeze!
My kids are paying three times what I did for college (in the late 80's), five times what I did for car insurance (perfectly clean drivers), four times what I did for gasoline, and twice what I did for rent. All while making only 10% more than I did at their age at my job. They have a long uphill road.
I paid for both of my undergrad degrees (with GI Bill help for the second) and grad school; my wife paid for her undergrad and grad school. If my kids want to go to college (and we are not going to make them), we'll help them find ways to make it work, but we do not think it is our responsibility to pay for it.
Part of the great scam of the business of higher education is being forced to take courses that you have neither an interest or no relation to your major. They force you under the guise of "being well-rounded"; in fact, it is mechanism to make more money. The highest job-to-graduate ratio is with the community college...ain't no shame in being an HVAC repairman. Hell, I bet I am paying for my repairman's kids' college.
College is not in the business of education, college is in the business of business.
Eurodriver
01-25-14, 07:33
I am using the GI Bill so I have no experience on costs. But i see so many students taking out fat ($35,000+) loans to pay for completely worthless degrees.
Many of my classmates already have degrees in political science, English, interdisciplinary sciences, etc. They wasted so much time and money because they thought the philosophy company hired and paid well.
. College is a great tool if you're actually using it to learn a practical field (engineering, chemistry, finance, etc)
Your average college-age teen from the Facebook generation probably doesn't want to be a diesel mechanic or drive a forklift somewhere.
This is quite true, But, the sad fact is, this is what they may end up doing if they want to eat...Unless you have a degree(s) in something in demand, and actually useful, What a lot of these kids are going to find out when they graduate is, That they can take that degree and wipe their ass with it. an awful lot of them are going to end up as well educated forklift drivers, retail clerks, assistant managers at McDonalds, etc, If there are some who don't mind working with their hands, and getting dirty, they might make it in a apprenticeship, provided they can do the following.. Show up for work, Show up for work every day, Show up for work every day ON TIME.. I've been a pipefitter for 33yrs..and the basics, like showing up for work, is hard for a lot of the apprentices I've seen in the last few years..
Showing up for work on time is the NUMBER ONE issue I have with employees. All people with an education... Drives me nuts. It took me almost a year to get the entire office onboard with "5 minutes early is on time, 'on time' is late."
I put money aside in UTMA accounts for my kids starting when they were born. Just set up a 529 plan for my newborn granddaughter.
I took a similiar route myself. We managed to save close $30k and that still didn't cover the cost of a four year degree. It did when she was born 21 years ago. Keep in mind that we couldn't take the Jr College route because my daughter is doing a music degree with an education minor. She commutes to school so there aren't any additional cost for lodging. A college education isn't cheap and I think parents and educators need to increase emphasis on trade schools to include computer/information technology.
My parents started saving for my siblings and I when we were born. When I was 8 my brother and I started mowing lawns, all of the money made from that point until we graduated high school went towards saving for college. Almost the end of my 4th year and I'll be out of money. I would have been graduated with a biology degree and going to med school, but last semester changed my major to mechanical engineering. I have 2 more years to go after this which sucks but it will be worth the debt (I feel) to have made the switch.
Showing up for work on time is the NUMBER ONE issue I have with employees. All people with an education... Drives me nuts. It took me almost a year to get the entire office onboard with "5 minutes early is on time, 'on time' is late."
Laziness has nothing to do with education level.
Awesome! I love spending time in our lab working with the PLCs and valves & transmitters!
The HMI makes everything a breeze!
I used to travel the world working for CCI a few years ago. If you're in Houston I can hook you up with those guys if you wanna go screw with valves, etc.
Jobs in my field in my area start at 40-50 $/hr. With degree. Ive got one more semester to go! :D has not been cheap though, but thankfully I am not in debt.
What is your field?
Interesting thread, keep it coming. I just retired from 37+ years at a major land grant university, have a daughter with her bachelors and a son on the verge of graduating with his doctorate/ Cheers..
Laziness has nothing to do with education level.
Yeah, but in four years they never learned that they had to actually show up on time?
I was fortunate enough to have parents that decided they would never let either of their kids begin their adult lives in debt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
I can honestly say that the massive pile of government backed loans is solely responsible for the rate at which the cost of an education has rocketed upwards. It's simple economics. More dollars chasing the same resources.
You cut off the tap, and schools would be cutting tuition massively. Private industry still funds, and would continue to fund, a lot of student loans, but the number would drop insanely fast if Uncle Sam was out of the game.
THIS!!! Our kids yet again have been screwed by the government. In the early 90s I was able to pay my own way through school. There is no way that a kids can do that these days and it's all courtesy of the government interfering in the market. Note now that the government owns Sallie Mae.
scoutfsu99
01-25-14, 23:35
Yeah, but in four years they never learned that they had to actually show up on time?
5 minutes early isn't on time. It's early.
The Army became 15 minutes to 15 minutes to 15 minutes ad nauseam....next thing you know, you're showing up at 0300 for a 0630 weapons draw.
The same people making others show up early are the same people keeping them after hours too.
On time is on time. You really want to effect some change - create a work environment where people want to come in early, where people care about success, where people are guilty for being late, sick, lame, etc, and where people care about the success of the company/business/whatever.
College costs are outrageous, and it's driven by a combination of easy student loan availability, selling to a laughably unsophisticated customer base (doe-eyed teens), and excessive demand due to the mantra that EVERYONE SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE instead of just sending the much smaller portion of students who are both smart and academic-oriented. (I probably don't need to tell people here that you can be smart and not do well in, or even hate, the academic setting.)
There's truth to this...with the prevalence of unfettered government-backed student loans, there is no reason for universities to hold costs, much less lower them. Aside from capital projects like buildings, the cost of the product (the classes) are a constant...there is no reason that this year's econ 101 should be more expensive than last year's econ 101.
5 minutes early isn't on time. It's early.
The Army became 15 minutes to 15 minutes to 15 minutes ad nauseam....next thing you know, you're showing up at 0300 for a 0630 weapons draw.
The same people making others show up early are the same people keeping them after hours too.
On time is on time. You really want to effect some change - create a work environment where people want to come in early, where people care about success, where people are guilty for being late, sick, lame, etc, and where people care about the success of the company/business/whatever.
Where I work the shift starts at 0700. You start work at 0700. If your equipment is not checked out when cases start rolling in, that's on you. So people clock in between 0645 and 0700. And you show me a boss that tries to affect change by making someone sick feel guilty, I will show you a bad boss. I agree with much of the rest of your post.
Not all want to go to college.
My neighbor's son is going to a two year (I think) trade school to learn instrument measurement.
When he finishes he'll make big bucks and not be stuck behind a desk.
Needless to say, but I will anyway, he's an "outdoors kinda guy".
He's quite intelligent enough to earn a college degree, but simply doesn't want that kind of education.
alvincullumyork
01-26-14, 10:19
I'm graduating in March with a construction engineering degree. If you're are even relatively motivated it's pretty easy to have a job lined up before you leave school and the average salary is about 56k. If you don't mind working in ND or AK the salary can be a lot higher. Looking back I wish I had either worked in construction as an apprentice first or served in the military. Coming out of high school I had no idea of what I wanted to do and so I did what people told me to do and I went to college. Because I had no plan I've spent 7 years just to get my bs. That is one of my biggest failures. Thankfully my parents helped with the first four years and I have worked almost continuously since I was sixteen so my debt is not to bad and I have a plan to have it paid off in three years.
Sent from my clutch hand while riding a wheelie....
scoutfsu99
01-26-14, 10:40
Where I work the shift starts at 0700. You start work at 0700. If your equipment is not checked out when cases start rolling in, that's on you. So people clock in between 0645 and 0700. And you show me a boss that tries to affect change by making someone sick feel guilty, I will show you a bad boss. I agree with much of the rest of your post.
We're pretty much saying the same thing. I agree with showing up early to get situated and prepared for work. I just don't like seeing it mandated as the new "on time." If a person is consistently late or not ready to work...then maybe they shouldn't be there. Instead, we'd rather use mass punishment and operate at the lowest common denominator level....sound familiar military people?
I'm also not talking about a boss making someone feel guilty for being sick. The point I was trying to make is that the work environment is so good that a person feels bad that they're not there - even if it's a legit excuse. They want to contribute and be part of the team.
We're pretty much saying the same thing. I agree with showing up early to get situated and prepared for work. I just don't like seeing it mandated as the new "on time." If a person is consistently late or not ready to work...then maybe they shouldn't be there. Instead, we'd rather use mass punishment and operate at the lowest common denominator level....sound familiar military people?
I'm also not talking about a boss making someone feel guilty for being sick. The point I was trying to make is that the work environment is so good that a person feels bad that they're not there - even if it's a legit excuse. They want to contribute and be part of the team.
We are tracking.
SilverBullet432
01-26-14, 11:57
What is your field?
Instrumentation & Automation. Lotz of work here in the west tx oilfields!
SilverBullet432
01-26-14, 11:58
I used to travel the world working for CCI a few years ago. If you're in Houston I can hook you up with those guys if you wanna go screw with valves, etc.
Thanks man, but im 8 hours away!
montanadave
01-26-14, 13:42
For those interested in looking at some data, here's a report on a longitudinal study of 2002 high school sophomores ten years later conducted by the National Center for Educational Statistics: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2014/2014363.pdf
Lot of information, too much to try to summarize here. But the study does include stats on graduation rates, educational levels attained, employment and earnings, college loan debt, and much more. The Atlantic website has an article which provides some selected highlights from the study: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/highly-educated-highly-indebted-the-lives-of-todays-27-year-olds-in-charts/283263/
(I subscribe to The Atlantic; not sure that link is valid for all)
Anyway, here's a snippet that probably won't come as much of a surprise. 68% of high school dropouts have children; that number falls off to 12% for those with a bachelor's or post-grad degree. On the subject of college costs and student loans, surprisingly less that 25% of 27-year-olds who have attended college have more than $25K in student loans; almost 40% have no school debt at all.
That study is basically of the class I realistically was a part of (class of '05, but I really only took English and junk classes my senior year), and a lot of those make sense. Many of those statistics would be skewed significantly in my neck of the woods (97% high school graduation is unheard of here), but the debt figures are still pretty staggering to me - 43% carrying five figures of debt, yet only 33% having achieved a bachelor's or greater isn't really ideal. The 11% with over 50k ironically are probably among the best off statistically (it's hard to accrue that sort of debt without top end schooling - be it prestigious universities or postgraduate professional schooling), but that to me says the 55th through 88th percentile are in five figures of debt with anywhere between an AA degree and a baccalaureate, and these are the ones that should be forming the basis of the working middle class - but right now they're in the positions that are the most insecure in this type of economy. They'll succeed, but this really is the group I'm thinking of when college was probably a poor investment, made only possible by the extraordinary amount of federal funding which has enriched university facility funds more than students or society as a whole.
I'm still completely preparing myself to be viewed as a pariah for the level of schooling my spouse and I will have attained while having the sorts of ludicrous savings levels we've achieved, especially since we're both going into high demand fields. Somehow I know that telling all the facebook fools my age with liberal arts degrees that 'We knew there was a need for engineers and doctors - why are you complaining that your degree isn't in demand' isn't going to ameliorate the envy of greed, so hooray for that stupidity we'll get to endure.
I'd really love to see that same study on a population like New Mexico's - that would be entirely too depressing, but quite telling overall.
Mauser KAR98K
01-27-14, 06:24
I just got my B.S. in History last month, and I am 30. Do I have debt? Oh yeah. But I also kept my 30K-50K licenses clean and up to date (CDL-A). In fact I upgraded it last week to Hazmat, tankers, and doubles and triples. Took all three tests at the same time and passed all (HAZMAT with 100%). I will say college did help me in that regard.
I left OTR trucking to finally pursue a Bachelors in something 4 and half years ago. Reason: I wanted to be an educator. After all said and done, I just wanted it like a kid wanting the top-shelf toy at Toys-R-Us. For me it is really not a leg up but an achievement, one that I would have kicked myself for the rest of my life if I had not gotten it. Plus, I did it in a discipline that I have a passion for. It hasn't really shaped my view of the world, but it has hardened my values, and has made me more aware of things. If that is all my degree and time in college will serve me, it beats moaning that it hasn't raised my gross income.
In fact, I'm going back to trucking, but going to Texas to the Oil Patch and make more money than I would being an educator. I will say many of my professors wanted me to go get my PH.D and become one of them. But I would be 34 by then with a mountain of debt a University prof couldn't pay off. Plus with the unsettling spending and rising debt ceiling on the nation, I want to be in something that is going to have more of a resilient life in a huge economic downturn.
$80,000 for a truck driver is just awesome. Being well educated just keeps my mind entertained longer.
Eurodriver
01-27-14, 06:40
From the link
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/01/27_Education_Ethnicity/8cebbaa4f.png
Wait a minute....white privilege? What?
Coming out of high school I had no idea of what I wanted to do and so I did what people told me to do and I went to college. Because I had no plan I've spent 7 years just to get my bs.
I am in the same boat and I think this is actually an issue these days. Where I went to high school we never really had anything where someone could go to in order to learn about other majors/professions/etc. No one really talked a whole lot about college except for "are you going?" I started a biology degree because I was told that's what I needed for med school and I thought maybe that's what I wanted to do. Spent 3 years taking biology classes and started looking into other things. Found mechanical engineering and haven't looked back. I think one of the biggest issues is that not a lot of kids know exactly what they want to do when they graduate high school. How should they? Especially if their high school doesn't help them and provide information on things for them.
High school also did not prepare me for college AT ALL. I did not study a single time in high school, even in AP classes and dual credit classes (called level class in high school and got credit for both college and high school). Was it nice at the time? Hell yeah, I just got to **** around all the time. I came to college and got by for a while and then really struggled because I didn't know what studying was. Having ADD doesn't help, but it would have been a lot better for me had I learned good study habits long ago.
SilverBullet432
01-27-14, 09:12
I just got my B.S. in History last month, and I am 30. Do I have debt? Oh yeah. But I also kept my 30K-50K licenses clean and up to date (CDL-A). In fact I upgraded it last week to Hazmat, tankers, and doubles and triples. Took all three tests at the same time and passed all (HAZMAT with 100%). I will say college did help me in that regard.
I left OTR trucking to finally pursue a Bachelors in something 4 and half years ago. Reason: I wanted to be an educator. After all said and done, I just wanted it like a kid wanting the top-shelf toy at Toys-R-Us. For me it is really not a leg up but an achievement, one that I would have kicked myself for the rest of my life if I had not gotten it. Plus, I did it in a discipline that I have a passion for. It hasn't really shaped my view of the world, but it has hardened my values, and has made me more aware of things. If that is all my degree and time in college will serve me, it beats moaning that it hasn't raised my gross income.
In fact, I'm going back to trucking, but going to Texas to the Oil Patch and make more money than I would being an educator. I will say many of my professors wanted me to go get my PH.D and become one of them. But I would be 34 by then with a mountain of debt a University prof couldn't pay off. Plus with the unsettling spending and rising debt ceiling on the nation, I want to be in something that is going to have more of a resilient life in a huge economic downturn.
$80,000 for a truck driver is just awesome. Being well educated just keeps my mind entertained longer.
Hauling crude? Water?
The cost of college has risen too quickly in comparison to inflation. Yes, you can make more with a degree, but the cost of the education has to be considered. A college degree could be shortened to 3 years or less. My third world nations course was a huge waste of my time in college.
In my case, I went to a state school and worked my through my MBA degree in 1994-1996. It has paid off for me. I am making over four times what I made in 1996.
Today's economy is still in a precarious state. I routinely hire college educated employees with varied backgrounds. Some of these people have over 50k in student loans.
This generation is going to have a hard time attaining the same standard of living that I did.
I think that the major and job outlook needs to be good to go to college. If you are getting a liberal arts, English, teaching, or social services degree, you could be in trouble. Many folks would be better off working for a year or two and learning the ways of the world. The military and technical occupations are also a good option. Of course, healthcare occupations are also great. Just my observations after 20+ years in the workplace.
5 minutes early isn't on time. It's early.
Walking in the door ON THE MINUTE the day is supposed to be starting is not on time. Being at your desk, or in a meeting, at the time you're told you need to be there, is ON TIME. I don't mandate 5 minutes but it's a great plan for contingencies. They can walk in the front door of the building with thirty seconds to go, but they damn well better hustle to where they need to be because my office's days begin on time.
On time is on time. You really want to effect some change - create a work environment where people want to come in early, where people care about success, where people are guilty for being late, sick, lame, etc, and where people care about the success of the company/business/whatever.
Last I checked, the paycheck is the primary motivator. This isn't a charity where we are doing our work for some emotional motivation. We work hard and as such my team, even the part time entry level folks, are very well paid with full benefits. I have a great team of people who, for the most part, kick ass all day. I did have some people I inherited from the prior mgmt team that did not have the standard I do. The ones who remain do execute to my standards every day. It's one of the reasons we're winning now. New people have seen the culture, and they fall in line fast. Still doesn't change the fact that I've had convos with 20something kids fresh out of college that 8:32 to my meeting at 8:30 is late. Once or twice in a great while, no sweat I guess. Life happens. Once a week is just disrespectful to everyone who showed up on time.
They can't hack it, the door to my office is always open, should they feel the need to talk or resign. Only had two people ever leave. Both left the field entirely, as the work wasn't for them.
Mauser KAR98K
01-27-14, 10:13
Hauling crude? Water?
Sand...
brickboy240
01-27-14, 10:46
We started a 529 account back when my 14 year old was born. Still...that alone will not cover college expenses.
I honestly don't know how these parents do it today with all the extra expenses as well as their living space, cell phone, computers and all...much more expensive than when I went to college in the late 80s!
We plan on sending my daughter to a smaller state college and paying the rest as she goes along. Our goal is no debt when she graduates and she HAS to get it done in 4 years.....no career student. She will also be expected to work part time to help with expenses.
It will be tight...but I think we will be able to swing it.
-brickboy240
ForTehNguyen
01-27-14, 17:41
Govt: Everyone should own a house!!! *pop*
Govt: Everyone should go to college...
scoutfsu99
01-27-14, 20:03
Walking in the door ON THE MINUTE the day is supposed to be starting is not on time. Being at your desk, or in a meeting, at the time you're told you need to be there, is ON TIME. I don't mandate 5 minutes but it's a great plan for contingencies. They can walk in the front door of the building with thirty seconds to go, but they damn well better hustle to where they need to be because my office's days begin on time.
Last I checked, the paycheck is the primary motivator. This isn't a charity where we are doing our work for some emotional motivation. We work hard and as such my team, even the part time entry level folks, are very well paid with full benefits. I have a great team of people who, for the most part, kick ass all day. I did have some people I inherited from the prior mgmt team that did not have the standard I do. The ones who remain do execute to my standards every day. It's one of the reasons we're winning now. New people have seen the culture, and they fall in line fast. Still doesn't change the fact that I've had convos with 20something kids fresh out of college that 8:32 to my meeting at 8:30 is late. Once or twice in a great while, no sweat I guess. Life happens. Once a week is just disrespectful to everyone who showed up on time.
They can't hack it, the door to my office is always open, should they feel the need to talk or resign. Only had two people ever leave. Both left the field entirely, as the work wasn't for them.
You and I are more in agreement than you think. At your place of duty, ready to work is on time. I just don't agree with the 15 minutes prior is on time, on time is late mantra (or whatever ambiguous time). I lived that madness long enough to despise it. Its been my experience that the same people wanting you to show up early are the same people that will keep you late with zero consideration too. I'll show up at whatever time I need to show up to be ready to work, be it 30 min or 3 min. I agree 100% with the bolded too.
Being on time and ready to work has zero to do with education level and everything to do with maturity, IMO.
SilverBullet432
01-27-14, 20:19
Sand...
cool, plenty of work in all 3
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