View Full Version : University Police advises students to "improvise"
Tacti-square
01-28-14, 17:37
Today my building was given a rundown of "Run, Hide, Defend," which is the college preparedness drill for an active shooter on campus. My question to UPD is this: how do you expect us to defend ourselves against a violent attacker when we aren't even allowed to carry knives on campus, let alone firearms? Why should we have to "improvise weapons" in the forms of chairs or fire extinguishers when we are already at such a disadvantage defensively? I do not feel as though my right to defend myself is being upheld or respected at this university, nor do I believe the response time of a police department is something I want to trust my life with.
I would like to know why items such as knives are not allowed to be carried on campus if defending ourselves is so very clearly stated for an emergency such as an active shooter. Yes, I am aware of the blade length and build exceptions, but those are truly pathetic. They can't possibly expect anyone to fight a gunman with a pocketknife, do they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSwejU2D0
They can't possibly expect anyone to fight a gunman with a pocketknife, do they?
Of course not. They'd much rather you utilize a pair of the teacher's scissors or a pencil.
Write letters, picket, do what you can to change things. In the meantime. Get a tactical pen and a Kevlar backpack. Carry mace if you can and be in the best shape you can be in.
Maybe one day you'll be able to change some minds.
black22rifle
01-28-14, 18:28
Ultimately you must decide what is more important to you. I believe that the chances of you getting caught carrying are far slimmer than actually having to use it so in my opinion it is worth the risk. Your degree or what you have of it is no good to you if you are either death or disabled and can not use it.
I stopped promoting carrying guns to people who don't already a long time ago. These situations are incredibly rare- you're hundreds of times more likely to hit the Powerball jackpot than to become the victim of an active shooter. You can train for it, but you can't train for it. People who will not train for it are completely ****ed, and we all know probably 9 out of 10 people carrying guns don't "train" any more than a few magazines at the cold range a few times a year.
A PSA video can't change anything; not for the better, nor the worse. I wouldn't waist any brain calories on it at all.
Yep, so that's how we came to be the pre-eminent civilization on the planet, not to mention the top of the food chain.
By adhering to the time-tested principles of: Run, Cower under a desk, Die begging for your life.
Natural selection at work
Most colleges and universities are run by the liberal idiots who fear guns. It's their playground. It sucks - but that's what we are stuck with in most cases.
That said - if you're in a classroom and there is an active shooter there is a technique that has a high probability of success. The fewer doors the better. But picture a classroom with a single door. Have everyone stack on the inside of the door and wait. Maybe the shooter looks in the window and sees an empty room, passing it by. If he enters, everyone stacked up jumps him.
Yes - some of you may get shot. Some of you may die. But no matter what type of firearm he has, he won't be able to stop the dogpile. This of course works best on single shooters and thugs who aren't wearing explosives. But the technique will work and will stop the killing. And it beats the hell out of hiding under a desk and hoping he doesn't shoot you. I'd rather get dead fighting to the very end than letting some wanker with a gun casually decide my fate.
Spectre'sWrath
01-29-14, 21:12
My wife works at the local community college (Reading Area Community College) and they went through a similar "Active shooter response" course. Basically, a dude went on for over an hour on how they could stack chairs against a door. The fact that a lot of the classrooms have a giant glass wall didn't seem to enter into his plan. Pathetic. Sadly, the decision must be made to act within your limitations, knowing, as is stated above, that some will die.
Plumber237
01-30-14, 06:17
People running colleges take their "expertise" from their idols in congress...make rules, laws, and programs even though you have no knowledge at all about what you're talking about. I'd say screw it and get a small folder, idk about your college, but I normally had a small folder on me when on campus...nobody ever said anything. YMMV depending on strictness, I'm sure colleges have gotten even worse since I've been out (5+ years).
Most colleges and universities are run by the liberal idiots who fear guns. It's their playground. It sucks - but that's what we are stuck with in most cases.
Therein lies the problem. Institutes of higher learning are run by liberals promoting their liberal agenda usually funded by public money.
Therein lies the problem. Institutes of higher learning are run by liberals promoting their liberal agenda usually funded by public money.
In a case like this, you have to look at who typically attends the university. We're talking about 18-20 somethings who are leading increasingly more sheltered lives, though there's a recent influx of recent veterans (thank you) attending on the GI.
The typical college student isn't the survival minded, situationally aware, M4C type who applies "thinking outside the box" to many things outside of a classroom or lab setting. In short, these aren't the types who have the training, foresight, or intestinal fortitude to carry a knife or firearm (maybe pepper spray) in defense of self or others.
Tacti-square, "Run Hide Defend" isn't for you, or many of us here. It's geared towards the types who haven't given much thought to the scenario before. Is it the ideal, where CCW is allowed on campus, and everyone in the classroom gets behind the 2 guys who are armed? No. But not even three years ago, this type of training for colleges and large businesses (I organized one for a hospital in 2012) was unheard of, and largely consisted of "put your head between your legs and kiss your behind goodbye".
The fact that you're getting some training from the school is a big step in the right direction. A lamp or a small folding pocketknife aren't the ideal defensive weapons, but they beat cowering or yelling which, for a time, were approved options.
Related: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139366-Higher-learning-liberal-logic
In a case like this, you have to look at who typically attends the university. We're talking about 18-20 somethings who are leading increasingly more sheltered lives, though there's a recent influx of recent veterans (thank you) attending on the GI.
The typical college student isn't the survival minded, situationally aware, M4C type who applies "thinking outside the box" to many things outside of a classroom or lab setting. In short, these aren't the types who have the training, foresight, or intestinal fortitude to carry a knife or firearm (maybe pepper spray) in defense of self or others.
Related: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139366-Higher-learning-liberal-logic
I don't disagree that we are dealing with 18-20 year olds, many who have lived a sheltered life, but I do believe having more direct security measures implemented at institutions of higher learning are a good idea. The training given to students should also include "Welcome to the real world" instruction that make them less like sheep heading to slaughter. Perhaps better training would also help in addressing other problems such as violent attacks against individuals and sexual assaults.
Agreed! But that's not going to happen overnight, and The OPs video, though it's not perfect, is much better than what's been passed as "training" before.
Some more situational awareness or WTTRW training would do our college (and high school) students some good. I also have some issues with how some colleges talk about and deal with sexual assaults and other forms of campus violence. The fact that the OP's campus even showed the video is amazing, since many high schools and colleges don't want to admit to the possibility of bad things happening on their property.
... but I do believe having more direct security measures implemented at institutions of higher learning are a good idea.
Also true. Again, I submit that implementing more physical security measure (along with training/education), hiring more and better cops (with a focus on protecting the student body, vs traffic control for the football team), and revisiting campus weapons policies (as in, allowing) are all great ideas, but they will take time, money, and convincing. Frank talks, a short video, and a modicum of personal responsibility and initiative are cheap, if not free.
I've not read the entire thread, that said, I'd look into an online college if your course curriculum allowed it.
I'd think home is quite a bit safer than most schools can provide.
Trouble is, I don't know if a degree from an internet school has accreditation?
Or if it does, will employers look upon such favorably?
Tacti-square
01-30-14, 14:39
I've not read the entire thread, that said, I'd look into an online college if your course curriculum allowed it.
I'd think home is quite a bit safer than most schools can provide.
Trouble is, I don't know if a degree from an internet school has accreditation?
Or if it does, will employers look upon such favorably?
My major is Music Education with an emphasis on percussion, so unfortunately I need to be in hands-on environments for mastering my trade and working with kids.
I went to a southern college that was fairly conservative. You were the odd man (or woman) out if you didn't have a good size folder clipped in your front pocket. The campus police didn't say a damn word to us about it. They understood.
Many of my fellow classmates carried guns. I kept an AR in my truck and took certain measures. Hell the campus police told us to keep guns in our cars.
If an active shooter had picked our campus, he would have been kicking over the wrong hornets nest for sure. It was understood after VT that you were expected to fight back.
I know a member on another forum who was attending the University of Texas when Charles Whitman climbed the tower. He gave us a good detailed rundown of the incident and how students/professors provided countersniper fire
HardToHandle
01-31-14, 06:15
My major is Music Education with an emphasis on percussion, so unfortunately I need to be in hands-on environments for mastering my trade and working with kids.
You should be carrying snare drum sticks all the time right? That is a nice start.
There are a lot of improvised weapons around. Think fire extinguishers.
Tacti-square we share majors except I have a focus on vocals. Year left. Not sure if I'll finish or not but anyway, my school is private and has the saddest security. I doubt we can carry at all without facing trouble. Judged by 12/carried by 6.
I always have a light and Hinderer pen on me. Maybe something slicey might help but probably isn't permitted.
Ned Christiansen
01-31-14, 08:38
If they won't allow real weapons, and suggest that chairs and fire extinguishers are adequate weapons, then by their own logic, all the chairs and fire extinguishers in the place..... must go.
....but I think we know that, since logic doesn't really exist in this situation, the chairs and fire extinguishers will probably stay. So.... no joke..... maybe a little familiarization with chairs and fire extinguishers would not hurt?
The typical college student isn't the survival minded, situationally aware, M4C type who applies "thinking outside the box" to many things outside of a classroom or lab setting. In short, these aren't the types who have the training, foresight, or intestinal fortitude to carry a knife or firearm (maybe pepper spray) in defense of self or others.
Small point of disagreement, carrying forward the box metaphor: the folks that are, or get, switched on (whether it's because of info they sought out or discovered here or aboard another venue) are those who have discovered that, in a great many cases, they've been ignoring all of the simplest, most viable solutions that were there in the box the whole damned time.
...and in the middle of typing that, I realize that you appear to be speaking more from the standpoint of "Some admin/middle-management douche took my simple solution out of my box, NOW what do I do....?" (given that I and certainly a lot of us look upon carrying articles with which to provide for one's own defense and that of others is not only in the box, but in a box marked "Kit, Grown-Ass Adult, Mk1 Mod0"). How close am I?
Tacti, I remember seeing some after-action/emergency-room photos of a corrections officer who'd managed to fight off and subdue an inmate that'd somehow gotten his hands on or built an improvised cutter with a fraction of a razor blade. It's amazing that that officer survived the encounter; I'm not big on dramatic language, but the damage was simply massive, to the point that I think the only reason that officer survived is that he managed to keep the inmate from applying it to areas where even something with a not-particularly-large cutting surface would have opened up something major. The wounds he did have....stunning. Simply put, would have been beyond credible had it not been for imagery.
Lots of self-defence practitioners taking ShivWorks, ECQC classes, and similar with small knives and being taught how make an effective defense and make an opponent room-temp, if need be. In light of equipment restrictions, presuming one elects to abide by them in the first place (that's not advocacy of ignoring the rules, just recognizing that some folks may choose to ignore them...), it's easy to sell short what "equipment" you may have available until shown just how much CAN be done with something less than ideal, or even something one'd not automatically think of as useful in the first place.
Airplanes: You have no idea how badly you can **** somebody up with a rolled-up SkyMall magazine until somebody shows you how. :ph34r:
Small point of disagreement, carrying forward the box metaphor: the folks that are, or get, switched on (whether it's because of info they sought out or discovered here or aboard another venue) are those who have discovered that, in a great many cases, they've been ignoring all of the simplest, most viable solutions that were there in the box the whole damned time.
...and in the middle of typing that, I realize that you appear to be speaking more from the standpoint of "Some admin/middle-management douche took my simple solution out of my box, NOW what do I do....?" (given that I and certainly a lot of us look upon carrying articles with which to provide for one's own defense and that of others is not only in the box, but in a box marked "Kit, Grown-Ass Adult, Mk1 Mod0"). How close am I?
Pretty good. My comment about the box was in reference to the larger issue of many of these college kids having limited ability to think creatively on their feet, regardless of the gravity of the issue at hand, though certainly a life or death scenario would fall into that category. SAOAFR is also a factor.
For folks here, the ability to apply abstract thought and problem solving skills goes hand in hand with our ability and choice to carry the tools which may or may not be necessary for the task at hand. Our "box", so to speak, can be modified by the rules imposed by others, and, yes, our willingness to abide by them.
Lots of self-defence practitioners taking ShivWorks, ECQC classes, and similar with small knives and being taught how make an effective defense and make an opponent room-temp, if need be. In light of equipment restrictions, presuming one elects to abide by them in the first place (that's not advocacy of ignoring the rules, just recognizing that some folks may choose to ignore them...), it's easy to sell short what "equipment" you may have available until shown just how much CAN be done with something less than ideal, or even something one'd not automatically think of as useful in the first place.
Airplanes: You have no idea how badly you can **** somebody up with a rolled-up SkyMall magazine until somebody shows you how. :ph34r:
There's a lot of truth here. For some of us, a rolled up magazine, a metal flashlight, or a full pack of breath mints are inside the box, and for others, they are outside.
I think you put it a lot more eloquently than I could have. Just because some "middle management douche" or an over-priced notary public took away your ability to carry your tool of choice, it should not keep you from looking for ways to exploit your own environment, or seeking training in unarmed or "less armed" self defense. You still have options, some of which may serve you well in the meantime when you encounter a problem that you can neither walk away from, nor shoot(either because it isn't legal or practical). In addition, while the ideal is obviously to be able to carry the best tools for the job, which will likely happen first: you gain a basic understanding of how to ground fight with an armed opponent or use a table leg as an improvised baton, or the venue changing its weapons policy?
"Kit, Grown-Ass Adult, Mk1 Mod0". - So stealing that.
Added, off topic: it's funny how in almost every profession, but especially public safety and .mil, the longer you're at it and still in the game, the more easily the simple solutions, the ones that are already in the box, come to you?
When I was in school (not too long ago) I always told my self and thought things out how if there was ever an active shooter I would do whatever I could to stop the treat. Weather that means getting injured or worse than so be it. But I'm not the type to let someone freely do what he pleases with other people's life's and my life.
When I was in school, also not that long ago (like yesterday), I always told myself "I'd dump two magazines into that mother****er," and that's exactly how I intend to handle it. Concealed means concealed.
The_War_Wagon
01-31-14, 16:48
Welcome to State U., where - if all your bills are paid - you're the MOST expendable commodity on campus. There's always another sucker, with a fractionally lower GPA, waiting to take your place. :rolleyes:
And of course, the bad guy just had to be a white male.
Because if it was any other "demographic", that would be racist/sexist/offensive/etc.
Anyways, it is bewildering how universities have become the mecca of leftist indoctrination. With the likes of Bill Ayers, Derrick Bell and various anti-Western psychopaths teaching our kids, I am not paying for my kid to become one of their social experiments. Trade school it is. Hell, they're even pshing this garbage down to the elementary levels. I never thought I would seriously look at home-schooling, but here I am.
^^^ tell me about it. I had maybe 2 teachers that I can confidently say that weren't left wing extremists. One was my economic teacher (ex army) and the other was my American history teacher (former marine sniper). All the others were clear cut leftists. When I have kids I will be dammed if the schools liberal agenda gets pull over on them.
My brother is still in elementary school and I ask him from time to time (without pushing too hard) what his teachers say about how you should be and what they say the "best way" is.
And of course, the bad guy just had to be a white male.
Because if it was any other "demographic", that would be racist/sexist/offensive/etc.
Anyways, it is bewildering how universities have become the mecca of leftist indoctrination. With the likes of Bill Ayers, Derrick Bell and various anti-Western psychopaths teaching our kids, I am not paying for my kid to become one of their social experiments. Trade school it is. Hell, they're even pshing this garbage down to the elementary levels. I never thought I would seriously look at home-schooling, but here I am.
This is why private schools, K-12, have such a long waiting list in our area. What is really disturbing is that the left wing extremists are spreading their doctrine in a public school system that is funded by OUR TAX MONEY.
Tacti-square
02-01-14, 18:27
There is a lot of right-wing sentiment here, something I'd expect from a forum like this. However it should be noted that plenty of reasonable gun owners/enthusiasts are liberal, myself included. I'd like to know what the outrage is over educated people expressing their personal views in the classroom. Maybe there's a reason the majority of university professors, people with degrees that more often than not include a doctorate, are democrats. Your hatred of their "doctrine" is assuredly shared by them of your political views, trust me.
Because a classroom should not be an environment for teachers to give their opinions on how things should be. They should teach how things are and let the kids make up their own minds. Kids don't know that some teachers are so bias so the kids think that's the only way to be. The teachers should leave it up to the parents to show their kids what's right and what not so right.
There is a lot of right-wing sentiment here, something I'd expect from a forum like this. However it should be noted that plenty of reasonable gun owners/enthusiasts are liberal, myself included. I'd like to know what the outrage is over educated people expressing their personal views in the classroom. Maybe there's a reason the majority of university professors, people with degrees that more often than not include a doctorate, are democrats. Your hatred of their "doctrine" is assuredly shared by them of your political views, trust me.
As a gun-guy, a liberal, a graduate and seemingly perpetual student, I think I'd disagree that a majority of professors are Democrats. At least professors of relevant disciplines. Liberal, yes. Democrat? The IQ cap for membership to the Democrat party is around 83-85; this automatically excludes most graduate degrees. Liberal-Indy seems to dominate, with significant support for Democrat candidates generally for lesser-of-two-evil sake (just as Libertarians keep voting for Republicans, retardedly), and Green and Libertarian parties have strong representation among graduate degree holders. The various Socialist parties also see decent representation.
Friends of Ds, sure. But smart people are neither Ds nor Rs. Too mainstream, if for no other reason. Gotta be unique to be elite.
Because a classroom should not be an environment for teachers to give their opinions on how things should be. They should teach how things are and let the kids make up their own minds. Kids don't know that some teachers are so bias so the kids think that's the only way to be. The teachers should leave it up to the parents to show their kids what's right and what not so right.
How can they do that when no one can agree on "how things are?"
That would depend on grade level. For say high school I would say that those students are more capable of making their own conclusions. So then maybe the teacher can teach about each side of the Isle and give their opinions on both.
But for elementary school I feel like they should teach off of facts from history. But even then it depends on who makes the books. So really there is no clear cut simple answer
The question comes down to: why should I have be forced improvise during a violent attack because of your poor policies? I'd stick to their focusing on their (poor) advice in the context of their policy and let them explain it you to. They will be unable to and the whole house of cards falls apart.
That would depend on grade level. For say high school I would say that those students are more capable of making their own conclusions. So then maybe the teacher can teach about each side of the Isle and give their opinions on both.
But for elementary school I feel like they should teach off of facts from history. But even then it depends on who makes the books. So really there is no clear cut simple answer
Many elementary school textbooks teach the Second Amendment grants powers to the States to form state-"regulated militias." Unfortunately, everything is subject to interpretation. Everything. It's just not that simple.
I am certainly not disagreeing with you. It truly come down to a teacher basis. I am not really deeply worried about my future children's educations because I will do what I can to assure they know that there is a difference between fact and opinion and how to interpret that. But I think we may be veering slightly off the topic of the thread so I won't make any more posts regarding my political beliefs on schools.
Many elementary school textbooks teach the Second Amendment grants powers to the States to form state-"regulated militias." Unfortunately, everything is subject to interpretation. Everything. It's just not that simple.
Obviously been a mighty long time, I can't remember a single discussion on the 2A in school until I got to college, and that was in one US History course. I grew up in the NE, so not a big surprise. Is that different for other regions of the US? Does the 2A get any actual focus in say the south?
There is a lot of right-wing sentiment here, something I'd expect from a forum like this. However it should be noted that plenty of reasonable gun owners/enthusiasts are liberal, myself included. I'd like to know what the outrage is over educated people expressing their personal views in the classroom. Maybe there's a reason the majority of university professors, people with degrees that more often than not include a doctorate, are democrats. Your hatred of their "doctrine" is assuredly shared by them of your political views, trust me.
it's not "sharing" their views, it's indoctrination and pressure on impressionable children to fit the mold of the modern "gentler, caring, enlightened" view...
you are ok to have your views, as am I. but your rights stop where mine begin and that is where I have a problem with people who attempt to induct, proselytize, or convert those younger than themselves. if you are liberal, socialist, homo, anti-gun, pro abortion, or whatever, that's fine, just don't cram that shit down my throat and I won't bother you either.
a teacher is in a position of authority over students and, IMO, abuse that position in espousing their views. this is wrong. there is no place for politics in care for the young...
Pretty good. My comment about the box was in reference to the larger issue of many of these college kids having limited ability to think creatively on their feet, regardless of the gravity of the issue at hand, though certainly a life or death scenario would fall into that category.
Would you not apply that statement to essentially everyone minus a smal % of people? It seems a accurate statement about the population at large and not say "worse" in college kids per se. People are generally just clueless I find.
Going slight OT, I roll my eyes at the people who spend so much time worrying and posting about their CCW rig being made, when that vast majority if people wouldn't notice a LAW rocket strapped to your back they are so clueless about their surroundings.
Tacti-square
02-02-14, 19:29
I'm sure you wouldn't mind if college professors quoted Bible verses, put up pictures of dead unborn fetuses, passed out "God Hates Fags" pamphlets and preached about the importance of militias.
I'm sure you wouldn't mind if college professors quoted Bible verses, put up pictures of dead unborn fetuses, passed out "God Hates Fags" pamphlets and preached about the importance of militias.
That would be just as inappropriate as the socialism that is being promoted by the schools.
I expect a moderator will tell us to get back on point.
I'm sure you wouldn't mind if college professors quoted Bible verses, put up pictures of dead unborn fetuses, passed out "God Hates Fags" pamphlets and preached about the importance of militias.
Unproductive and inaccurate. Throwing out your side's negative stereotypes of the other is only effective when you're on your side of the line. On the wrong side, you simply deepen your own alienation.
SeriousStudent
02-02-14, 20:56
That would be just as inappropriate as the socialism that is being promoted by the schools.
I expect a moderator will tell us to get back on point.
Nope, consider the shark jumped.
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