View Full Version : Weights and cardio on the same day...is this a bad idea?
brickboy240
01-29-14, 13:44
I was wondering...
In the last few weeks, I have been doing maybe 30-45 minutes of elliptical work (...with the resistance cranked way up so it actually does some good) after doing an upper body free weight session (hour and a half of dumbell presses, curls, flys, rows, tricep kickbacks....etc.).
Is this a bad idea? Someone told me that doing weight training and cardio on the same day is counter-productive. If my weight work is upper body and the elliptical is lower....does it matter?
My daughter joins me at the club, after her tennis lesson and my weight workout and this was something we can do together when we cannot get outside to hit on the tennis court. When the weather gets better...I plan on taking back up with tennis and using my "cardio days" helping my daughter improve her game (she is on the high school tennis team). I am not a huge fan of indoor cardio on a machine like a treadmill, bike or even this elliptical...rather be outside.
So is cardio on the same day as weights a bad idea? I know it is important to do both weights AND cardio but never found a straight answer on whether one right after the other is good or bad.
Thanks in advance for the replies...
-brickboy240
I'd be curious what the physiological brainiacs have to say...I have always followed up weights with a run.
brickboy240
01-29-14, 13:50
I don't know if I'd follow up a lower body workout with the elliptical or running but after lifting upper body...man...I like how it sort of "finishes things off" for me.
I figured burning calories is burning calories...does it matter when you do it?
-brickboy240
I always do cardio first as a warm up, nothing high intensity, just 15-30 min of stair climber on hard level or elliptical / jumping rope. I'm also interested...
Brick- 1.5 hour weight session! Your probably getting a solid cardio workout there if your not taking breaks- my supersets leave me feeling like I ran sprints.
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I do calisthenics and cardio every single morning. Not because I want to, but unfortunately the Army have their own ideals for physical training.
I supplement this with weight lifting almost every afternoon. And while I'll admit I'm far from being the pinnacle of physical fitness, I've never seen a downside to training like this and consistently perform at the top of my Company.
I'm happy with what I do. The question is, are you? If so, keep on rocking.
brickboy240
01-29-14, 14:20
My 1.5 hour upper body sessions usually involve SOME short breaks. At age 48....I am not looking to injure myself! LOL
No breaks longer than a few minutes, though. Just enough to get a quick sip of water or stop panting! LOL
That workout usually consists of dumbbell bench press (incline press too), dumbbell military press, dumbbell flys, dumbbell rows, cable flys, dumbbell curls/hammer curls, tricep kickbacks, skull crushers and maybe cable curls. Either doing super sets or 4 sets of 12 each takes me a good 1.5 hours.
By that time...yeah...I could not do anymore upper body stuff but I feel just fine to go at least 30 minutes on the elliptical.
I wish I could remember where it was that I read you should not do cardio and weights on the same day. Seems fine to me but I am no expert.
-brickboy240
I don't know if I'd follow up a lower body workout with the elliptical or running but after lifting upper body...man...I like how it sort of "finishes things off" for me.
I figured burning calories is burning calories...does it matter when you do it?
-brickboy240
I don't do lower body workouts; I run or jog stairs to work out my legs. I will throw in box jumps from time to time. I don't know how well I could run after a leg routine.
I've always done fasting cardio first thing in the mornings followed 8 hrs later with weight training. has always worked for me and is what has always been recommended by the various forums I've been a member at
and some times I would add in a 1 mile treadmill run after weights based on how I'm feeling
I don't, unless you consider mountain biking (singletrack) to be cardio (I don't really since I'm not using a single speed).
I'm not much of a runner though. It gets way too boring after two miles.
I only do full body supersets (had to google that term; I hate just standing around in the gym) every other day. Usually I'm in and out in about an hour. While weight training doesn't really make me sweat if I keep it heavy and lower reps (5-10), I'm usually wiped out and light headed when I'm done (I train fasted), so cardio right after would be a bad idea for me.
Not sure if cardio will hurt your gains, or if that's just broscience. I'd up your cals to account for the cardio though (unless you're trying to loose weight).
Always do a warm up before lifting weights, i.e. static & ballistic stretches. Light cardio is also ok before lifting.
One to two days of intense cardio (e.g. plyometrics rather than running) a week is sufficient; too much cardio will prevent you from building muscle.
For most individuals who want to lose body fat percentage rapidly, you will have to greatly decrease your intake of grains, e.g. wheat/ gluten.
Also, be sure to change your workouts every four weeks if you are looking to change your physique.
When I lift heavy on lower body dominant lifts (Squats, Cleans, Snatches), I always follow up with a high intensity low volume sprint of some sort. I do this about twice a week.
For example, 70 yards sprints on the minute for 10 minutes at 90% intensity. I also do the same thing with bleachers.
I loathe running distance, but the high intensity stuff actually carries over into my lifts. I believe it helps with explosiveness. The high intensity stuff seems to work better for me. I've noticed that I stay leaner without losing strength like I did with endurance training.
Every day this week thus far, I've done 4 miles @ 7:30 pace, which I would consider easy, then 30:00 on the bike keeping my heart rate about 130 BPM, which nets me about 9.2 miles in the allotted time, followed by weights.
The short answer is that it totally depends on your physical condition. When you get into higher levels of conditioning you'll have to make larger and larger training commitments to make smaller gains. When you're running a 10:00 mile, it doesn't take much to improve. At a 6:00, the gains are smaller for much more training.
There is a lot to be said for lower intensity duration training, and high intensity has its place as well. From my experience though, its much easier to get hurt on faster or interval runs than it is long(er) ones.
In the same day, no problem. I'd say no in the same session, but this is a general answer not knowing any other pertinent facts.
When you finish your strength training re-fueling the body with protein shortly thereafter is an important part of building muscle. Jumping straight to cardio delays the fueling process. So, let's say your goal is to build muscle I'd separate cardio and weights into two workouts in the same day.
I've heard before that weight training and cardio on the same day can compromise your strength gains. BUT, here's an article from the NY Times (I know...) about a University research study which found no indications of "interference"; i.e. doing cardio before or after lifting weights does not compromise your workout:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/mixing-weight-training-and-aerobics/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
However, if you do cardio after you lift, the increased blood flow may help flush lactic acid from your muscles and reduce next day & 2nd day after soreness.
brickboy240
01-30-14, 11:33
If my goal is to just stay relatively thin and not gain weight...I would think that doing more activities that burn calories is better than going home and watching tv and eating even healthy foods.
I am not trying to look like Arnold or gain strength to win a lifting contest...just remain healthy and not get fat as I reach 50.
You can, and it will be beneficial. But you induce a lot more stress on the body through an exaggerated release of cortisol after your workout. I myself lift at 0600, and after classes and such get home an run between 3-6 miles by 1800. That way you can replenish lost protein, vitamins, and help a stressed CNS recover slightly before your next workout, be it weights or running. Also, putting time between your workout and run allows you to train at a relatively higher intensity, making gains/progress that much more. But, I do see a lot of guys follow your same pattern too, so it obviously works. At least your doing something.
P.S.: DONT SKIP LEG DAY
LESSTHANZERO
01-30-14, 12:32
All the time, mix it up to see what works best for you & your goals.
I was wondering...
In the last few weeks, I have been doing maybe 30-45 minutes of elliptical work (...with the resistance cranked way up so it actually does some good) after doing an upper body free weight session (hour and a half of dumbell presses, curls, flys, rows, tricep kickbacks....etc.).
Is this a bad idea? Someone told me that doing weight training and cardio on the same day is counter-productive. If my weight work is upper body and the elliptical is lower....does it matter?
My daughter joins me at the club, after her tennis lesson and my weight workout and this was something we can do together when we cannot get outside to hit on the tennis court. When the weather gets better...I plan on taking back up with tennis and using my "cardio days" helping my daughter improve her game (she is on the high school tennis team). I am not a huge fan of indoor cardio on a machine like a treadmill, bike or even this elliptical...rather be outside.
So is cardio on the same day as weights a bad idea? I know it is important to do both weights AND cardio but never found a straight answer on whether one right after the other is good or bad.
Thanks in advance for the replies...
-brickboy240
Depends mostly on your goals. If your goals is to get stronger, add muscle, etc, then doing cardio right after could be counter productive yes. Two, hour and a half including kick backs and flys? Stick to primary multi joint, best bang for the buck, exercises like squats, chin ups, bent rows, standing press, and forget things like kick backs, all of which should easily be done in 40mins to an hour max.
Finally, if I read the above correctly, no lower body work other than aerobic work? Stop that. Do a proper program that includes lower body work.
With 5 cardio sessions per week and 3 weight-lifting ones, well....do the math. Yes, there are a day or two each week where I have to do both in one day. Always do cardio first though.
You lost me at tricep kickbacks and flyes. Maybe something like Starting Strength, Stronglifts 5x5 or Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 for your strength training programming.
With 5 cardio sessions per week and 3 weight-lifting ones, well....do the math. Yes, there are a day or two each week where I have to do both in one day. Always do cardio first though.
If your goal is to build/maintain muscle, then it is counterproductive to do cardio right before weights. Will can dispute this if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that doing cardio right before weights will deplete your testosterone, which means you won't be getting the full benefit of a weightlifting session. Something like a morning cardio session and an evening weight session would be better if you wanted to get cardio out of the way first.
If your goal is to build/maintain muscle, then it is counterproductive to do cardio right before weights. Will can dispute this if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that doing cardio right before weights will deplete your testosterone, which means you won't be getting the full benefit of a weightlifting session. Something like a morning cardio session and an evening weight session would be better if you wanted to get cardio out of the way first.
Unfortunately it's a time factor coming into play. I work 3 (night) 12 hour shifts one week and 4 the next. Given that I have an almost 50 minute drive to work all I have time for on work days is cardio....not enough time to drive to the gym and drive home to get ready for work. Hell, I'm lucky if I'm getting 6 to 6 1/2 hours of sleep on those days as it is! So, that leaves my weight training on my off days, but still have a cardio or 2 left to do that week also. As it is I basically don't have a totally "off" day from workouts unless I want to add to the number of days I do cardio/weights in the same day. It sucks.......but by damned when they close the lid they'll say "At least he looked good"!
Summertime is worse with the heat sapping my energy and then having to lift too.
I'm 48yo and still trying to maintain a workout schedule like I'm 30! That's okay though, as I have (had I guess is a better way to put it) "low-T" and 1/2cc of Test Cypionate a week does help believe it or not. In fact, it was really dragging ass on my cardio/weight days that got me motivated to get my T checked in the first place.
No I totally understand what you mean about time crunch and trying to fit in workouts. All I was saying was that it may be better to switch you cardio to after weights instead of before. In your situation it wouldn't add time to your workouts since you're already doing both. Splitting it to a morning cardio session (or lunch time) is probably best (IMO)...IF you have the time for it.
And kudos to you for working out and staying in shape at your age. I wanna be like you when I grow up ;)
When doing cardio and weights in the same sessions there's 2 schools of thought I've always heard.
1. If i do 30 minutes of cardio first it gets the body starting to burn cals and continues it as I push through my lifting sessions.
2. If I lift weights first I have all of my energy for going hard on weights. However, You have a bit longer to wait for the protein after the lift. Unless, you like slamming 20oz of thick protein before 30 minutes of running.
I for one want to put as much effort as I can into my lifting. So i go with number 2 and make sure to get protein immediately after the cardio. Not saying I am right but thats the way I see it.
Or do crossfit and "cardio-lift". not for me, but may be for you.
And kudos to you for working out and staying in shape at your age. I wanna be like you when I grow up ;)
Friggin' whippersnappers! ;)
Or do crossfit and "cardio-lift". not for me, but may be for you.
Yeah, I haven't been able to bridge that gap either. Old school I guess. I suppose it's the wave of the future (?). I keep cardio and strength training separate, but I can see the utility of the cardio-fit regimen for functionality (and there certainly is something to be said for that in the real world).
I also do cardio sometimes before lifting. However I prefer to mix in my cardio while lifting by doing interval training. Lift a set, do abs, lift another set, do heavy ropes, lift another set, do jumping jacks or mountain climbers, when all is done, after 1-1.5 hrs you've got your lifting and cardio done all at once
Yeah, I haven't been able to bridge that gap either. Old school I guess. I suppose it's the wave of the future (?). I keep cardio and strength training separate, but I can see the utility of the cardio-fit regimen for functionality (and there certainly is something to be said for that in the real world).
I see it as an option for people with kids and stuff that need to blast themselves really quickly. I do some of the "tests" sometimes to see how I am compared to some crossfitters. I have the time to do my personal workouts but If I really had all the time in the world I would do my workouts and crossfit twice a week. For me, most of the time I want to lift when I want to lift and I want to do cardio when I want to do cardio. I don't like mixing the 2.
I see it as an option for people with kids and stuff that need to blast themselves really quickly..... For me, most of the time I want to lift when I want to lift and I want to do cardio when I want to do cardio. I don't like mixing the 2.
Singing my song. I like circuits for that very reason. My goal is weight maintenance and fitness now that I am 45...my days of trying to be super lean or running marathons or doing Tough Mudders are behind me. I usually do either moderate/heavy weights followed by some cardio, or a moderate weight routine that hits the whole body and do it quickly for the combo weight-cardio thing (my usual routine). Some days I just skip weights altogether and go for a nice, slow run. I wish I had a couple hours a day, or five or six days a week, to devote to exercising but if my wife and kids want to see me, I just can't do it.
If your goal is to build/maintain muscle, then it is counterproductive to do cardio right before weights. Will can dispute this if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that doing cardio right before weights will deplete your testosterone, which means you won't be getting the full benefit of a weightlifting session. Something like a morning cardio session and an evening weight session would be better if you wanted to get cardio out of the way first.
I'm in agreement. As a rule, it's been shown that resistance training does not negatively impact cario, but cardio does negatively impact resistance training. If one has to to them in the same session, I'd do the resistance training first. Best to break them up by at least a few hours of possible.
brickboy240
02-03-14, 16:13
Oh no...I AM doing lower body work but not on the days that I do the elliptical or go out on the tennis court.
I was just wondering if doing cardio (elliptical or tennis) AFTER the upper body on those days was counter-productive. I knew that doing cardio before weights was a no-no. Was wondering about cardio right after upper body lifting.
Also...when the weather gets better...my "lower body days" lifting sometimes gets replaced with a few hours of mt biking on the trails. I'd rather be outside sweating and enjoying the trails instead of lifting in the a/c if it is possible. The mt bike gives me plenty of lower body workout. I am completely wiped out when I get home from riding.
I guess it is just good that I get out and do anything. So many of my neighbors and family do little or no exercising at all.
Not looking for a body builder's look or to be a power lifter...just keep thin, gain some definition and not get fat as I age. I just fell better when I do all of htis versus just sit around.
-brickboy240
Oh no...I AM doing lower body work but not on the days that I do the elliptical or go out on the tennis court.
I was just wondering if doing cardio (elliptical or tennis) AFTER the upper body on those days was counter-productive. I knew that doing cardio before weights was a no-no. Was wondering about cardio right after upper body lifting.
Also...when the weather gets better...my "lower body days" lifting sometimes gets replaced with a few hours of mt biking on the trails. I'd rather be outside sweating and enjoying the trails instead of lifting in the a/c if it is possible. The mt bike gives me plenty of lower body workout. I am completely wiped out when I get home from riding.
I guess it is just good that I get out and do anything. So many of my neighbors and family do little or no exercising at all.
Not looking for a body builder's look or to be a power lifter...just keep thin, gain some definition and not get fat as I age. I just fell better when I do all of htis versus just sit around.
-brickboy240
Counter productive to what goal is the Q? If the goal is "Not looking for a body builder's look or to be a power lifter...just keep thin, gain some definition and not get fat as I age" then no, it's unlikely to be counter productive. If the goals were the opposite, then yes, it could be counter productive. Goals dictate programs and it sounds like yours is working well for you, so GTG is my assessment.
While it may be a dated theory, I've always thought that doing cardio after weights was pulling valuable blood and nutrients from the muscles you just worked out (?).
wild_wild_wes
02-08-14, 12:03
What about lifting, then a low-intensity "cardio" workout, like a brisk walk?
Lot of us 48 year old guys on this forum :D
wild_wild_wes
02-08-14, 12:05
Depends mostly on your goals. If your goals is to get stronger, add muscle, etc, then doing cardio right after could be counter productive yes. Two, hour and a half including kick backs and flys? Stick to primary multi joint, best bang for the buck, exercises like squats, chin ups, bent rows, standing press, and forget things like kick backs, all of which should easily be done in 40mins to an hour max.
Finally, if I read the above correctly, no lower body work other than aerobic work? Stop that. Do a proper program that includes lower body work.
Will is absolutely correct. Put away those dumbbells and pick up the barbells.
Will is absolutely correct. Put away those dumbbells and pick up the barbells.
I don't think that's what he's saying. Aside from leg workouts, I don't touch barbells.
I don't think that's what he's saying. Aside from leg workouts, I don't touch barbells.
My comment was more on the exercises being done with the dumbbells than any comment on barbells vs dumbbells per se. Obviously, dumbbells are very useful tools in the tool box.
My comment was more on the exercises being done with the dumbbells than any comment on barbells vs dumbbells per se. Obviously, dumbbells are very useful tools in the tool box.
Gotcha Will. I just didn't want guys to think that you should avoid dumbells like the plague. But yes, most of the big multi-joint exercises are done with a bar. If it weren't for the fact that my legs can carry a lot more than my hands/arms can, I wouldn't ever use a bar.
Gotcha Will. I just didn't want guys to think that you should avoid dumbells like the plague. But yes, most of the big multi-joint exercises are done with a bar. If it weren't for the fact that my legs can carry a lot more than my hands/arms can, I wouldn't ever use a bar.
And that's a major issue right there. If I could only choose one, I'd take the barbell, but as I'm not limited to one or the other, best to use which ever fits the need and the goal, etc.
I'm no expert by any means, but I always start with a light run then do the weights. I do this every other day, the days in between I swim.
What about lifting, then a low-intensity "cardio" workout, like a brisk walk?
Lot of us 48 year old guys on this forum :D
You can find blue haired training partners in the mall around 9:00 :)
You can find blue haired training partners in the mall around 9:00 :)
Ouch!
brickboy240
02-10-14, 11:13
Ouch is right! LOL
I am 48 and enjoy a 1-2 hour mt bike ride as my "cardio" when weather permits. I come back sweaty, dirty and totally spent.
Old does not mean dead....you know! LOL
-brickboy240
Ouch is right! LOL
I am 48 and enjoy a 1-2 hour mt bike ride as my "cardio" when weather permits. I come back sweaty, dirty and totally spent.
Old does not mean dead....you know! LOL
-brickboy240
My idea of a "brisk walk" is 4 miles in ~ 50 mintues......that's a 12:30 min/mile speed-walk pace. Almost as challenging as a slow run. Haven't done it since last Fall due to weather but the Spring cometh!
I do this occasionally for cardio (to mix things up a bit) since my knees are shot as far as running goes, but at that pace you're still banging on the knees pretty good believe it or not. I sweat like a pig so on summer days my shoes would squish sweat out with each step by the time 50+ minutes of this was done! :bad:
I have this on a trainer in my basement. It's the closest thing to a true running motion of any elliptical-type machine. 3 of my cardios each week are on this thing and the other 2 are biking (as mentioned above, I'll mix in a long speed-walk every now and then for variety's sake).
http://www.elliptigo.com/
I'll take a WAG that 12:30 is about 4.5 MPH. Walking becomes hugely inefficient at fast paces. I very fast walk will be worse (harder on your joints) than a very slow jog, even if the paces are the same or near the same. There are reason those race walkers look f'n stupid, its just not a natural movement at fast paces.
As an alternative, I'd suggest walking slower, but at a greater incline. Everyone pushes pace on treadmills, but largely ignore incline. A caveat to that is don't hang from or support yourself on the machine like the fat women do. Arms should be swinging at your side naturally. No holding on. If you can't do it w/o holding on, you can't do it. You will also find that working at an incline will be harder on your muscles and demand more oxygen from your cardiovascular system, but will be easier on your joints.
I'm not a huge fan of elliptical machines. The arc trainers better simulate a running stride, but you have to be aware of your training heart rates. IMO, an elliptical machine teaches lazy turnover and exaggerated vertical movement which is the exact opposite of what you want for a run.
I've also seen bike rides that were mostly coasting, and I've ran past people who were biking. Heart rate is important if you are looking for a cardiovascular improvement. When I hit the stationary bike at the gym, I like to be about 15 miles, which time varies based on what heart rate zone I want to be at, but typically about 40:00 min.
I'll take a WAG that 12:30 is about 4.5 MPH. Walking becomes hugely inefficient at fast paces. I very fast walk will be worse (harder on your joints) than a very slow jog, even if the paces are the same or near the same. There are reason those race walkers look f'n stupid, its just not a natural movement at fast paces.
As an alternative, I'd suggest walking slower, but at a greater incline. Everyone pushes pace on treadmills, but largely ignore incline. A caveat to that is don't hang from or support yourself on the machine like the fat women do. Arms should be swinging at your side naturally. No holding on. If you can't do it w/o holding on, you can't do it. You will also find that working at an incline will be harder on your muscles and demand more oxygen from your cardiovascular system, but will be easier on your joints.
I'm not a huge fan of elliptical machines. The arc trainers better simulate a running stride, but you have to be aware of your training heart rates. IMO, an elliptical machine teaches lazy turnover and exaggerated vertical movement which is the exact opposite of what you want for a run.
I've also seen bike rides that were mostly coasting, and I've ran past people who were biking. Heart rate is important if you are looking for a cardiovascular improvement. When I hit the stationary bike at the gym, I like to be about 15 miles, which time varies based on what heart rate zone I want to be at, but typically about 40:00 min.
That's science right there bitches! :cool:
I LOLd at that comment.
I'll take a WAG that 12:30 is about 4.5 MPH. Walking becomes hugely inefficient at fast paces. I very fast walk will be worse (harder on your joints) than a very slow jog, even if the paces are the same or near the same. There are reason those race walkers look f'n stupid, its just not a natural movement at fast paces.
As an alternative, I'd suggest walking slower, but at a greater incline. Everyone pushes pace on treadmills, but largely ignore incline. A caveat to that is don't hang from or support yourself on the machine like the fat women do. Arms should be swinging at your side naturally. No holding on. If you can't do it w/o holding on, you can't do it. You will also find that working at an incline will be harder on your muscles and demand more oxygen from your cardiovascular system, but will be easier on your joints.
I'm not a huge fan of elliptical machines. The arc trainers better simulate a running stride, but you have to be aware of your training heart rates. IMO, an elliptical machine teaches lazy turnover and exaggerated vertical movement which is the exact opposite of what you want for a run.
I've also seen bike rides that were mostly coasting, and I've ran past people who were biking. Heart rate is important if you are looking for a cardiovascular improvement. When I hit the stationary bike at the gym, I like to be about 15 miles, which time varies based on what heart rate zone I want to be at, but typically about 40:00 min.
I don't do the gooney race-walker thing.....but, yeah, it's not natural to walk that fast and like I said above it still imparts a little discomfort on the knees.
That Elliptigo I use has a pretty natural running stride to it. If you look at the link you'll see what I'm talking about. There isn't the "upstroke" emphasis like other elliptical machines but instead a push backwards like you would when pushing your body forward while running.
My biking outdoors averages 18.5 mph for 10 miles and just over 18 mph for 15 miles. For weighing 230lbs that's leaning on it, trust me.
My indoor (winter) biking is for 35 minutes at a pop and gets my HR from the mid 140's to the low 150's.
I have a theory that I base my cardio on: if it doesn't suck balls you ain't doing it right. You should be praying for it to be over. You should have a manageable amount of dread beforehand but the discipline to MAKE yourself do it anyway. I don't miss.....260 per year (5x per week). And yeah, I mark it on the calendar in my bedroom to keep track.
FWIW I do ~160 minutes of cardio each week and lift 3 times.
wild_wild_wes
02-15-14, 15:45
I don't do the gooney race-walker thing.....but, yeah, it's not natural to walk that fast and like I said above it still imparts a little discomfort on the knees.
My pace is 3.8 MPH. I do it for one hour after lifting, and feel no discomfort at all.
3.8 is what I'd consider a typical walking pace. I doubt doing it for an hour is doing anything for you though. You could probably just eat 100 less calories and accomplish the same thing.
wild_wild_wes
02-16-14, 00:40
Nope. HR usually averages about 115, just a bit less than an easy bike ride. Burns about 450 calories.
Yup. When you subtract your base metabolic rate from that you'll find it is much less.
115 is higher than I would expect for a walking pace, even a brisk walk. Are you heavy or working at an incline?
Again, its still very low intensity. What you see on most heart rate zone charts, which are useful as a guideline, is that resting to about 100-115 is only considered warm-up/Z1. What exactly are you trying to train by working at such a low intensity for so long?
wild_wild_wes
02-16-14, 12:10
I'm pretty fit cardiovascularly; that HR is what it is for that effort- pretty flat.
Low-level aerobic work is recommended for daily training, along with 2 days a week high intensity. Do you think an hour LISS is too much?
it's not necessarily a bad idea. In an ideal world you'd probably separate them, but that's usually not reasonable with most people's schedules. I will say that if you do them together, I'd recommend lifting first. Doing cardio first will severely hamper resistance training performance but not as much the other way around.
There is no good idea/bad idea analysis if you don't state your goals. Generally speaking though not only is it a good idea to combine WT and cardio it's generally the best idea. You should likely engage in cardio before - and probably after - your WT, assuming you don't have restricting injuries, health issues, etc. Vague questions, vague answers.
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I disagree slightly with BioLayne. A brief cardio session (10-15 minutes) prior to lifting at a moderate HR generally leads to better lifting sessions, for most people
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I disagree slightly with BioLayne. A brief cardio session (10-15 minutes) prior to lifting at a moderate HR generally leads to better lifting sessions, for most people
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But that's known as a warm up, and I doubt very much Layne is against a warm up. However, studies have shown one is best off doing resistance training before extended cardio sessions if one must do them back to back.
I agree Will. That's why I hedged by asking OP for his cardio goals. Extended vs brief/warm-up/moderate. I am currently training for Mt Rainier, for example, and would not lift my legs after 3 hours on the stair master. I would lift my legs after a 2 mile warmup run, however. For OP a 2 mile run may be a full cardio session, which is absolutely fine if that segment is part of his plan.
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I agree Will. That's why I hedged by asking OP for his cardio goals. Extended vs brief/warm-up/moderate. I am currently training for Mt Rainier, for example, and would not lift my legs after 3 hours on the stair master. I would lift my legs after a 2 mile warmup run, however. For OP a 2 mile run may be a full cardio session, which is absolutely fine if that segment is part of his plan.
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But that brings up back to the goals, and as mentioned early in the thread: if his goals is to maximize the effects of his resistance training (for example), a 2 mile run prior to the resistance training, may indeed interfere with that goal, and doing the exact same 2 mile run after the resistance training (although not optimal) would be the better option. But, if you look at early posts in this thread, you'll see discussion of his specific goals and my comments of his approach to it. For example:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146725-Weights-and-cardio-on-the-same-day-is-this-a-bad-idea&p=1848527#post1848527
I'm pretty fit cardiovascularly; that HR is what it is for that effort- pretty flat.
Low-level aerobic work is recommended for daily training, along with 2 days a week high intensity. Do you think an hour LISS is too much?
I think you have to define exactly what you consider low and high intensity. Low level or base training makes up the vast majority of any cardio training plan, but the intensity is much higher than 115 BPM. For a 35 year old that range would be about 130-148 BPM. High intensity for the same 35 year old would have you break about 172 BPM in an interval type workout.
I don't think an hour is too long for base cardio training in that 130-148 range provided your mechanics are good. If your form is falling apart because you're tired then its better to stop than risk injury.
As to which to do first, cardio or weights, I would say it depends on what is the priority to the one preforming the work.
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 10:35
it's not necessarily a bad idea. In an ideal world you'd probably separate them, but that's usually not reasonable with most people's schedules. I will say that if you do them together, I'd recommend lifting first. Doing cardio first will severely hamper resistance training performance but not as much the other way around.
I can separate the workouts by doing the cardio before work and resistance training after work. I've read though that there is a benefit of doing LISS after strength training because that dumps large amounts of free fatty acids into the bloodstream.
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 10:40
There is no good idea/bad idea analysis if you don't state your goals. Generally speaking though not only is it a good idea to combine WT and cardio it's generally the best idea. You should likely engage in cardio before - and probably after - your WT, assuming you don't have restricting injuries, health issues, etc. Vague questions, vague answers.
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To un-vague matters, I don't have any health issues or restrictions, besides being overweight. My goal is to lose body fat while retaining muscle mass.
EDIT: To aid in this I'm trying out the ketogenic diet, with a 20% caloric deficit.
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 10:43
I think you have to define exactly what you consider low and high intensity. Low level or base training makes up the vast majority of any cardio training plan, but the intensity is much higher than 115 BPM. For a 35 year old that range would be about 130-148 BPM. High intensity for the same 35 year old would have you break about 172 BPM in an interval type workout.
I don't think an hour is too long for base cardio training in that 130-148 range provided your mechanics are good. If your form is falling apart because you're tired then its better to stop than risk injury.
As to which to do first, cardio or weights, I would say it depends on what is the priority to the one preforming the work.
The problem with getting into the higher HR range is that it requires the legs to work pretty hard. I don't want to interfere with recovery after lower body resistance training days, which I do twice a week.
To un-vague matters, I don't have any health issues or restrictions, besides being overweight. My goal is to lose body fat while retaining muscle mass.
Them I repeat my recs: do resistance training first (and perhaps 20-30g of whey between them if possible) then cardio, if you have to do them together.
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 11:21
Them I repeat my recs: do resistance training first (and perhaps 20-30g of whey between them if possible) then cardio, if you have to do them together.
I don't have to do them together, but I was doing that because I heard it was better (with 27g whey protein taken between them). I will just have to wake up an hour earlier to do the cardio if you think that is optimal.
I don't have to do them together, but I was doing that because I heard it was better (with 27g whey protein taken between them). I will just have to wake up an hour earlier to do the cardio if you think that is optimal.
It's better for eating up muscle tissue yes. :cool:
I'm not a fan of fasted cardio, so I'd recommend at least get the 25-30g of whey before you do the cardio if it's early am.
How on earth is he working hard enough to eat muscle tissue at that intensity?
How on earth is he working hard enough to eat muscle tissue at that intensity?
Intensity is but one variable. For example, high intensity for very short periods, via HIIT, is anti catabolic to LBM if employed correctly. Extended periods of even LISS, reduced cals, total volume of exercise, are all factors, etc can be catabolic to LBM. Two, I didn't say LISS alone was the issue, but resistance training followed by extended LISS, is likely going to be catabolic to LBM, especially if in a hypo caloric phase.
For example, in terms of your intensity comment: people who embark on a weight loss program doing only LISS as their form of exercise, will often lose LBM. Thus, why resistance training should always be included, if not the main focus, of any weight loss program.
The data, and extensive experience, supports that well and it's old news. Yes, my comment was flippant (hence the smile face) and all variables would have to be taken into account to say in absolute terms, in his case, he will lose LBM by doing that.
As there's zero metabolic advantage to do doing that, especially in that order, and there's a number of reasons not to to them together (if the goal is to preserve LBM while losing some BF), then the basic advice not to do that is still best practice.
IMO, the VAST majority of people who worry about losing muscle mass while trying to loose weight are worrying for nothing. I wouldn't even being to worry about it until I was well within a healthy weight. Lets say you lost a percentage of muscle mass while trying to loose 50lbs. Imagine what dropping that much mass would do. Pick up 50lbs and hit the stairs. The effort expended in carrying extra mass is enormous. What would losing that do for your energy level throughout the day?
I think a lot of people get bent out of shape because they feel weak after very long or intense cardio sessions. This is much more realistically the effects of dehydration than any muscle mass loss. A point I don't think anyone has made in this thread so far. I'd make sure I'd have a pretty good water balance going into any long workout, and its one of the reasons I like splitting workouts.
A girl I work with was having a conversation with me about running...she's not a runner, but I played along. As she puffed on her cigarette she said she doesn't like doing long runs because she looses too much muscle mass. Right. That doughy bag of tar doesn't know what a long run is nor would she be capable. So if working out is to be an improvement in health, the cigarette is much more destructive than the loss of muscle mass from long cardio. The cart is obviously before the horse here.
If one is overweight, loosing the excessive fat should be the priority. And all of this is my advice as a reformed fat kid ex-smoker.
IMO, the VAST majority of people who worry about losing muscle mass while trying to loose weight are worrying for nothing. I wouldn't even being to worry about it until I was well within a healthy weight. Lets say you lost a percentage of muscle mass while trying to loose 50lbs. Imagine what dropping that much mass would do. Pick up 50lbs and hit the stairs. The effort expended in carrying extra mass is enormous. What would losing that do for your energy level throughout the day?
I think a lot of people get bent out of shape because they feel weak after very long or intense cardio sessions. This is much more realistically the effects of dehydration than any muscle mass loss. A point I don't think anyone has made in this thread so far. I'd make sure I'd have a pretty good water balance going into any long workout, and its one of the reasons I like splitting workouts.
A girl I work with was having a conversation with me about running...she's not a runner, but I played along. As she puffed on her cigarette she said she doesn't like doing long runs because she looses too much muscle mass. Right. That doughy bag of tar doesn't know what a long run is nor would she be capable. So if working out is to be an improvement in health, the cigarette is much more destructive than the loss of muscle mass from long cardio. The cart is obviously before the horse here.
If one is overweight, loosing the excessive fat should be the priority. And all of this is my advice as a reformed fat kid ex-smoker.
And I couldn't agree with you any less. One of the major mistakes made by those looking to lose weight, is not focusing on fat loss while preserving all important LBM, which is essential to their RMR/metabolism, their health/well being, functionality and (if it matters to them) their visual appeal. And that's my advice from 20+ years as trainer of people at all levels, researcher, and thousands on thousands giving feedback to my advice (via articles published in various magazines, books, etc, etc) over the decades to outline a very small example of my background in this area.
Will is 100% correct, not only will losing LBM decrease strength & functionality, but it will reduce effectiveness of fat loss and will make you MORE likely to regain all the weight you lost previously
How on earth is he working hard enough to eat muscle tissue at that intensity?
the research is quite consistent that low intensity steady state cardio is more detrimental to muscle mass than high intensity short intervals. Dr. Mike Zourdos & Jacob Wilson at FSU demonstrated this with a very nice meta-analysis of the data
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 15:51
the research is quite consistent that low intensity steady state cardio is more detrimental to muscle mass than high intensity short intervals. Dr. Mike Zourdos & Jacob Wilson at FSU demonstrated this with a very nice meta-analysis of the data
Does that hold true if on a keto diet?
Just whey? I think casein between would be good as well. I'm advocating a blend of course, not additional as anything beyond 25-30grams won't be absorbed.
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It's cliche these days but HIIT is a combined efficient way to achieve your goals. But as with everything your diet will still play the major role.
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Will is 100% correct, not only will losing LBM decrease strength & functionality, but it will reduce effectiveness of fat loss and will make you MORE likely to regain all the weight you lost previously
I tried to find the article you referenced but no dice.
I'm not saying that LM loss isn't bad, I'm saying for someone who is obese the priority is backwards. Is it a concern, yes. Is it the only concern, no.
Will is 100% correct, not only will losing LBM decrease strength & functionality, but it will reduce effectiveness of fat loss and will make you MORE likely to regain all the weight you lost previously
And now the person has an even less favorable BF/LBM ratio than they started with! Lose lose...
Just whey? I think casein between would be good as well. I'm advocating a blend of course, not additional as anything beyond 25-30grams won't be absorbed.
There's no reason for the blend in that context: fasted cardio followed by a meal after exercise. Whey is exactly what one needs at that point, high BCAA content, high BV, fast absorption, effects on GSH, etc. which would be followed by a normal meal.
I tried to find the article you referenced but no dice.
I'm not saying that LM loss isn't bad, I'm saying for someone who is obese the priority is backwards. Is it a concern, yes. Is it the only concern, no.
No one claimed it was the only concern here. It is however of major importance to the overall success and it's still one of the least appreciated aspects vs." worrying for nothing" as you stated.
I am no expert nor claim to be but I have seen the same thing time and time again regarding whey and casein from multiple sources and studies. Here's an example:
Whey and casein are better together
Since whey rapidly increases protein synthesis and casein blocks protein breakdown, a combination of both would be ideal.
A recent study compared the effects of supplementing with either a combination whey and casein protein versus carbohydrate on several markers of muscle anabolism during strength training.3 Untrained men participated in a 10-week resistance training program and either supplemented with 40 grams of carbohydrate or 40 grams of protein containing a mixture of whey and casein. Half of the supplements were consumed one hour before and then immediately after exercise on workout days. The results were overwhelmingly positive for the combination protein group. Despite similar background diets and identical training programs, supplementation with protein resulted in greater increases in several measures of muscle anabolism, including greater increases in lean muscle mass, thigh muscle mass, muscle strength, anabolic hormones and muscle specific proteins.
In a similar study that lasted 14 weeks, untrained men performed resistance training and received either 25 grams of carbohydrate or 25 grams of a combination whey and casein protein one hour before and immediately after exercise.[4] The combination protein group had significantly greater increases in muscle fiber size compared to the carbohydrate group. These studies provide strong evidence that a combination protein consumed before and after workouts increases muscle size.
http://www.nutritionexpress.com/showarticle.aspx?articleid=787
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I am no expert nor claim to be but I have seen the same thing time and time again regarding whey and casein from multiple sources and studies. Here's an example:
Whey and casein are better together
Since whey rapidly increases protein synthesis and casein blocks protein breakdown, a combination of both would be ideal.
A recent study compared the effects of supplementing with either a combination whey and casein protein versus carbohydrate on several markers of muscle anabolism during strength training.3 Untrained men participated in a 10-week resistance training program and either supplemented with 40 grams of carbohydrate or 40 grams of protein containing a mixture of whey and casein. Half of the supplements were consumed one hour before and then immediately after exercise on workout days. The results were overwhelmingly positive for the combination protein group. Despite similar background diets and identical training programs, supplementation with protein resulted in greater increases in several measures of muscle anabolism, including greater increases in lean muscle mass, thigh muscle mass, muscle strength, anabolic hormones and muscle specific proteins.
In a similar study that lasted 14 weeks, untrained men performed resistance training and received either 25 grams of carbohydrate or 25 grams of a combination whey and casein protein one hour before and immediately after exercise.[4] The combination protein group had significantly greater increases in muscle fiber size compared to the carbohydrate group. These studies provide strong evidence that a combination protein consumed before and after workouts increases muscle size.
http://www.nutritionexpress.com/showarticle.aspx?articleid=787
I know the author well. Note his sentence here:
"For example, whey protein can be very effective before and after a workout and first thing in the morning. But since the benefits of whey after exercise are short-lived, you should consume a meal containing protein 20-60 minutes after drinking a post-workout whey protein shake"
So you'll note it jibes with what I was advising specific to the context specific to the fasted cardio + whey followed by a full meal after the cardio. There's also some larger additional issues specific to this type of research that makes for some potential recs not reflective of real life. You may find this article of value:
The Religion of Pre and Post Workout Nutrition.
Pre- and post-workout nutrition is all the rage these days, and for good reason. For some, however, it’s become more than a science—it’s become their religion, or perhaps just a place to focus their OCD-like tendencies. Regardless, people have taken the topic of pre- and post-workout nutrition to a level that is not justified by the research, or at least not confirmed by the research that currently exists.
Readers should realize I may have my membership card to the Bodybuilding Nutrition Guru Society torn up and thrown at me for what I am about to share in this article…
Cont HERE (http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/the-religion-of-pre-and-post-workout-nutrition/)
That was a good read thanks man
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That was a good read thanks man
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Glad you enjoyed it. Hopefully it helps put the pre/post workout thing into some perspective
I've only used casein for quite a few years now.
Rarely have a shake after workout. Usually eat a meal or I will have a shake if I lift earlier in the day. I prefer to use some BCAAs but they are expensive.
I also don't eat anything all day except a shake with about 20g casein and blueberries.
No issues with strength or muscle loss. The opposite actually.
Does that hold true if on a keto diet?
there isn't any direct research on it but based on what I know about muscle metabolism, laws of specificity, I wouldn't be inclined to think keto would reverse anything... glucose from gluconeogenesis would just be spared for the anaerobic exercise & thus you'd burn more fat at other times of the day
I tried to find the article you referenced but no dice.
I'm not saying that LM loss isn't bad, I'm saying for someone who is obese the priority is backwards. Is it a concern, yes. Is it the only concern, no.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22002517
There's no reason for the blend in that context: fasted cardio followed by a meal after exercise. Whey is exactly what one needs at that point, high BCAA content, high BV, fast absorption, effects on GSH, etc. which would be followed by a normal meal.
there are few things in the world that are overplayed as much as the value of casein IMO. In every single study of muscle protein synthesis we've done, Stu Phillips lab, and other labs that look at MPS (not whole body protein synthesis) casein is far inferior to whey. I'm with Will on this one. Whey does the job... no need to pay more
Just whey? I think casein between would be good as well. I'm advocating a blend of course, not additional as anything beyond 25-30grams won't be absorbed.
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that is completely incorrect. a huge myth.
I discuss that nonsense in my video log on protein myths: http://www.biolayne.com/uncategorized/biolayne-video-log-4-myths-about-protein/
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 22:05
I'm not a fan of fasted cardio, so I'd recommend at least get the 25-30g of whey before you do the cardio if it's early am.
I wish I could! Unfortunately, I had my thyroid gland removed. I have to take my daily dose of levothyroxine as soon as I wake up, and am not supposed to put anything else in my stomach for an hour afterwards. That means the only morning cardio I could do would have to be fasted. Which is a shame because I used to love working out before going to work; to do it now though I'd have to get up at 3:30 (so as to have time to let the meds absorb), and I'm having enough trouble with sleep as is.
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 22:18
the research is quite consistent that low intensity steady state cardio is more detrimental to muscle mass than high intensity short intervals. Dr. Mike Zourdos & Jacob Wilson at FSU demonstrated this with a very nice meta-analysis of the data
Does that hold true if on a keto diet?
there isn't any direct research on it but based on what I know about muscle metabolism, laws of specificity, I wouldn't be inclined to think keto would reverse anything... glucose from gluconeogenesis would just be spared for the anaerobic exercise & thus you'd burn more fat at other times of the day
What I meant was, since HIIT would be competing with strength training for muscle glycogen, if one were to do both on a ketogenic diet, wouldn't muscle mass be broken down to a greater degree to replenish it? Whereas LISS uses a different fuel source and would thus be more muscle-sparing?
I think you are underestimating your body's ability to adapt to a stresser :).
wild_wild_wes
02-17-14, 22:59
Hey, you're the PhD here!
well, i'm not going to pretend I'm right about everything and there is no direct data I'm aware of, but this is my opinion based on what I know about metabolism. It may be worth what you paid for it :p
wild_wild_wes
02-18-14, 07:13
HIIT is pretty hard on the legs. If I do it right after a Lower Body workout, would that hinder recovery/strength gains?
More free advice! Yay!
Everything needs to be put in context. What does your HIIT session contain? What exercises, duration, cadence, etc? What about your ST? If I do 5 min of HIIT and 5 mins of ST chances are I've undertrained. 50 mins of both probably overtrained. Everything requires a personalized plan based on your goals and restrictions.
And again - your diet will trump any exercise plan. Without the right diet it doesn't matter what you do physically.
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I wish I could! Unfortunately, I had my thyroid gland removed. I have to take my daily dose of levothyroxine as soon as I wake up, and am not supposed to put anything else in my stomach for an hour afterwards. That means the only morning cardio I could do would have to be fasted. Which is a shame because I used to love working out before going to work; to do it now though I'd have to get up at 3:30 (so as to have time to let the meds absorb), and I'm having enough trouble with sleep as is.
It isn't going to hurt you to do cardio fasted. Might not be the absolute best possible way to do it but your talking about this small percent of it all. Not like there isn't any aminos running through your body from eating the day before.
You're not going to shrivel up. Eat when you can and eat right.
HIIT is pretty hard on the legs. If I do it right after a Lower Body workout, would that hinder recovery/strength gains?
More free advice! Yay!
not once your body adjusted to it, assuming your program is properly periodized.
the thing people are forgetting is yes it's harder, but it also requires far less time input to get the same fat burning. a recent study showed 50% more fat loss from people who did 6 30 second all out sprints compared to those who walked 3 mph on an inclined treadmill. Now if you sprinted for an hour is that harder than walking for an hour? sure. But are 6 30 second sprints... 2 total minutes of work (not counting recovery periods) harder than walking for an hour? I'd say no
there are few things in the world that are overplayed as much as the value of casein IMO. In every single study of muscle protein synthesis we've done, Stu Phillips lab, and other labs that look at MPS (not whole body protein synthesis) casein is far inferior to whey. I'm with Will on this one. Whey does the job... no need to pay more
About the only time I'd alter that would be if say the person was going to go a long time without a meal. Then, a mix might make some sense, but outside of that, I see no real value to casein per se.
What I meant was, since HIIT would be competing with strength training for muscle glycogen, if one were to do both on a ketogenic diet, wouldn't muscle mass be broken down to a greater degree to replenish it? Whereas LISS uses a different fuel source and would thus be more muscle-sparing?
Strength training + HIIT + LISS and reduced cals could very likely overwhelm your ability to recoup yes. There's too many variables to consider and factor in to give a yes/no answer to that however.
wild_wild_wes
02-18-14, 13:24
Roger that, Will. I've over trained before, and I don't want to repeat the experience.
I haven't been able to make any progress since my surgery though; that's why I'm casting about for new strategies.
Roger that, Will. I've over trained before, and I don't want to repeat the experience.
I haven't been able to make any progress since my surgery though; that's why I'm casting about for new strategies.
Are you confident you're being correctly dosed, etc on the thyroid? Some info:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?28424-For-those-on-thyroid-meds-and-or-SSRI-s
wild_wild_wes
02-18-14, 16:53
Wow, that was a blast from the past, Will! I posted there right after being put on synthroid. I was on an initial high dose which they dialed down periodically. It seems to me I felt much better on a higher dosage, but both my endocrinologists say my TSH is sufficiently suppressed, and that is what matters most. I don't know how much longer I should stay on this dose before I request a change...I cut back on exercise and upped my calories, but I'm still falling asleep throughout the day.
Wow, that was a blast from the past, Will! I posted there right after being put on synthroid. I was on an initial high dose which they dialed down periodically. It seems to me I felt much better on a higher dosage, but both my endocrinologists say my TSH is sufficiently suppressed, and that is what matters most. I don't know how much longer I should stay on this dose before I request a change...I cut back on exercise and upped my calories, but I'm still falling asleep throughout the day.
Something to discuss with your docs. You might use what I posted as a reference to that discussion if you're still not feeling right. If they refuse to re visit the issue and feel that only your TSH is what matters, find a new doc...As you can see, the Co- Director of the Thyroid Clinic at Mass General Hospital (one of the most prestigious clinics in the US) does not appear to agree.
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