Tactical Gear: Camo or No Camo?

[Gutshot John]

Should you buy tactical gear in a camo pattern that matches your primary underlying camo pattern? Or

Is it more versatile to chose a neutral solid color (OD, Ranger, Coyote) that can be worn over a variety of underlayers, camo or otherwise?

Does wearing solid color tactical gear over camouflage BDUs eliminate what the camo was intended to do in terms of breaking up shapes?

[Dave L.]

First, what is the purpose of your question? Are you wondering from a military or LE point of view?
I'll say this:
The Army seems to like everything in ACU which doesn't matter because it doesn't really blend with anything- it only helps uniformity overall.
In an urban environment I don't think it really matters all that much.
If you have all Multi-Cam from top to bottom that might help in multiple terrain backgrounds when camo/concealment are "important" to say the least.

You can always paint your nylon to somewhat resemble your camies.

[Gutshot John]

The need would be minuteman and a mix between urban/rural.

Actually I have three types of Camo: Woodland, Digital Woodland and multicam. I like the first and the third best and have more of these than the digital which I'm considering ditching altogether.

I use the multicam quite a bit while bowhunting, and it's done well in the Ohio Valley as well as Canada/Maine.

[Dave L.]

Honestly unless you are conducting surveillance it doesn't matter, just stay with earth-tones or Multi-cam if you have the money and ability to wait for stuff in that color.

[Gutshot John]

Honestly unless you are conducting surveillance it doesn't matter, just stay with earth-tones or Multi-cam if you have the money and ability to wait for stuff in that color.

So you don't see any reason not to go with camo/multi-cam outside of cost? but that ultimately any difference is negligible?

Thanks for the info.

[El Cid]

I don't think it will matter, unless you have to worry about looking like your buddies. By that I mean, if a tactical team wants everyone wearing X color uniforms, and X color gear so you can quickly ID each other. If that isn't a concern buy what you prefer for your surroundings. I suspect it's not or you wouldn't be asking the question.

I decided last year that any gear I buy will either be Multicam or brown (there's dirt everywhere and it works great for animals). If I recall, having camo clothing/gear is more about breaking up your outline and making it less obvious there is a person there, than about actually making you "disappear." If you want to disappear, then you need 3D camo (i.e. something like a ghillie suit) IMO.

And I agree with Dave. ACU only blends in with anything else that is covered in ACU. I can't stand it. Not that my old service did much better with digital tiger stripes... :rolleyes:

[Gutshot John]

If I recall, having camo clothing/gear is more about breaking up your outline and making it less obvious there is a person there, than about actually making you "disappear."

No you're absolutely right about breaking up the silhouette, the question that occurs to me is whether a solid color LBE actually creates a silhouette wearing camoflage if that makes sense.

[NCPatrolAR]

No you're absolutely right about breaking up the silhouette, the question that occurs to me is whether a solid color LBE actually creates a silhouette wearing camoflage if that makes sense.

I think large patches of solid colors would stand out more than smaller sections. For example, when I was on active duty it could be hard to spot guys that were wearing normal BDUs and issue LCE. When guys started trying out vests, they became a bit easier to spot.

My recommendation; get a solid base layer and then add pouches in whichever color/pattern you feel is most appropriate.

[czydj]

I was watching a .mil sniper school on the Military Channel and one of the senior instructors said a patch of black in a woodland environment is a dead giveaway. He was able to use binoc's to pick out a fully camouflaged, sniper-trainee in full stalk mode because he left a 1" by 1" square of black showing on his mono-pod setup. Based on this, my woodland camo gear will be anything but black. IMHO, in a neighborhood / urban setting I don't believe I want to stand out. Based upon what I've read, the more I look like the "average joe", the less attention I will get. What do y'all think?

[Lagadelphia]

I was watching a .mil sniper school on the Military Channel and one of the senior instructors said a patch of black in a woodland environment is a dead giveaway. He was able to use binoc's to pick out a fully camouflaged, sniper-trainee in full stalk mode because he left a 1" by 1" square of black showing on his mono-pod setup. Based on this, my woodland camo gear will be anything but black. IMHO, in a neighborhood / urban setting I don't believe I want to stand out. Based upon what I've read, the more I look like the "average joe", the less attention I will get. What do y'all think?


I would think that in an urban/neighborhood setting with a rifle in hand, the color/camo pattern of any gear you are wearing won't matter :)

[Failure2Stop]

I use a FDE/Coyote base with multicam pouches.

The FDE/Coyote is easier for the user to modify (spray-paint) depending on specific environment. A few seconds and your desert rig becomes your woodland rig. Even if you don't have enough time to paint the base, the brown is a very common color in nature, and the multicam pouches will break-up the outline of the vest and match most environments.

Buy no camouflage patterns with black in them, and cover any black on items. This has been discussed to great length, and the final result is always the same- black is bad.

However, if you aren't planning on having to change climates, you would probably be better off with a dedicated scheme based on your environment.

[vaspence]

I have different take on this. It would appear to me that movement and noise plays a lot more into being detected than camo. Obviously a solid color is worse than multiples but unless you are sniper moving across open terrain during a course, I think it is secondary. I only base this on the fact that I hunt. A lot. And I was guilty of buying anything I thought would give me an advantage. Over the years I came to realize that movement is more critical in getting busted either in the tree or on the ground than camo. Last bow season I used a set of multicam BDU's I got used, shot a deer. Then I used a 3d suit in Mossy Oak Break Up and got a deer. Then I used a set of scentlock coveralls in some form of Mossy Oak or Advantage and got a deer. Fast forward to regular season and I was hunting on the ground in a pair of brown carhartt bibs and a goretex woodland jacket with a Filson waxed cotton vest over it. Had no problem killing a deer and a turkey with this setup and I was moving through the woods. Trust me, I am no indian or hawkeye.

Does this lead to any comparison with utilization against the human eye? After numerous observations in different conditions in the hills and mountains of central and western VA of my hunting buddies and myself, I prefer a a 3D suit of muted greens and browns. This has proven to be good in most scenarios except trying to cross large open areas, but you know to navigate around them don't you?


Hopefully I didn't waste anyone's time and if so my apologies.

[chadbag]

And I agree with Dave. ACU only blends in with anything else that is covered in ACU. I can't stand it.

And a few other things

[Ridge_Runner_5]

All black for me!!

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4798/1005920pc0.jpg

[HolyRoller]

I was watching a .mil sniper school on the Military Channel and one of the senior instructors said a patch of black in a woodland environment is a dead giveaway. He was able to use binoc's to pick out a fully camouflaged, sniper-trainee in full stalk mode because he left a 1" by 1" square of black showing on his mono-pod setup. Based on this, my woodland camo gear will be anything but black. IMHO, in a neighborhood / urban setting I don't believe I want to stand out. Based upon what I've read, the more I look like the "average joe", the less attention I will get. What do y'all think?
I've seen that episode about a hundred times and will see it again just about every time it's on. I'm no camo expert but I'd be reluctant to make these kind of decisions on one incident in one show, however true it may be in that exact circumstance.

This seems like one of those things where an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. How about taking a friend to the woods, or whatever environment you think you'd be operating in, and stalking each other to see for yourself? That might give you a more rounded picture.

[Gutshot John]

If it's the show I'm thinking of, it wasn't so much the black...so much as the black spot floating in mid-air on an open field. It created a shadow that revealed his silhouette.

In dense growth or forest, I can guarantee you that there are black patches everywhere.

[El Cid]

And a few other things

LMAO!! That is awesome! :D We should distribute that pattern all over Iraq and Afcrapistan. Send them drapes, couches, chairs, wallpaper, etc.



I've seen that episode about a hundred times and will see it again just about every time it's on. I'm no camo expert but I'd be reluctant to make these kind of decisions on one incident in one show, however true it may be in that exact circumstance.

This seems like one of those things where an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. How about taking a friend to the woods, or whatever environment you think you'd be operating in, and stalking each other to see for yourself? That might give you a more rounded picture.

I am no expert, but I agree about the black issue. I can recall seeing video images of woodland BDU's under NVG's. The black was a HUGE standout no matter what the terrain. The problem is worse in desert areas and the PJ's I worked with made sure to have pretty much everything black covered or painted.

I also recall USAF SERE Specialists (formerly called Survival Instructors) telling me back in the early 90's that black is a no-no for camo. For most folks is it a non-issue? Probably.

[ST911]

As noted, the ACU and ABU suck unless you're trying to hide among others wearing it.

Earth tones are great for contingency gear. You can walk among the masses or hide out as needed. Tans and browns go unnoticed.

[sinister]

Gentlemen, the idea (and the translation of the word from the original French) is "To fool the eye."

ACU does fairly well here in Baghdad, especially in town (much better than I would have thought). Troops not wearing too much black shit (slings, leg rigs, black backpacks, etc.) don't stand out too badly. The ACU is a little more apparent than 3-color DCU, only for its greener shade. Soldiers with access to spray-paint for their weapons are better off than those without.

Everything old is new again. Multicam looks a LOT like US ERDL camouflage but with less green (the pattern used on GI jungle cammies from 1969 through 1983 before the BDU Woodland camouflage pattern was adopted). Multicam has more of the tans and khaki, but the smaller print pattern than the Woodland clown pattern.

Camouflage will not make you invisible. The priniciple is to break up shape, shine, silhouette, and shadow and to help you blend. If you can do that, your cammy is right. METT-T always dictates. Multicam is good for a far wider range than Woodland.

With individual camouflage gear lighter is always better than darker. It's always easier to darken equipment than to try to lighten it up.

The US GI Vietnam-era lightweight cotton OG-107 jungle fatigues were also a great universal uniform -- you could wear them anywhere and they did their job -- jungle, desert, and urban, the more you washed them and the lighter they got the better they worked.

Ranger Green reminds me of a well-weathered GI field jacket, shelter half, or Deuce-and-a-half tarp -- the more weathered it is the better it blends with most backgrounds.

[Gutshot John]

Gentlemen, the idea (and the translation of the word from the original French) is "To fool the eye."

En faite non, la traduction en Francais de "To fool the eye" est "trompe-l'oeil."

In english this is translated as "optical illusion".

Camoflage is a verb unto itself. If you were to translate it directly it would be closest to "muffled foliage."

I don't really think anyone believes camoflage makes you invisible only breaks up silhouettes (though I suppose there is someone out there). Though if done effectively it can make you all-but invisible.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Ya wanna be invisible, you get/make a ghillie suit :D

[Heavy Metal]

The purpose of camoflage is to make you worthy of being ignored.

[old grunt]

Dave L is on the money. And for the record..I'm Army(Guard now) and the ACU SUCK!! As for ONE pattern the Multi-Cam looks the best or go with 2 like the Marines did(Woodland and Desert). Before I forget....THE VELCRO on the ACU's blows too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[the judge]

Buy Woodland or go home....:D

In the Woodlands of Canada, I still like the old Woodland camo the best. I like Multi-cam, but I think it is a bit to light in color.


I use OD a lot as a base color for gear and spray paint it as needed.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Trying to look at it from both a LE and Mil perspective ... yeah, it trashes my feeble mind ... I tilt towards a solid color for gear. Ragnar Gruen followed very closely by MJKhaki. A whole bunch of my gear is ragnar gruen, but my plate carrier (which sees the most actual use) is MJKhaki with M/C pouches on it.

Mil-wise ... in spite of what Big Army and the E-9 Mafiya thinks ... I believe that R/G works great with the UCP. But, obviously, it ain't my call. My non-LE uniformed gun belt is R/G, so is one asslt pack, chest rig and CIRAS vest.

[K.L. Davis]

The Army seems to like everything in ACU which doesn't matter because it doesn't really blend with anything

Actually, it works freakin awesome on grandma's couch...

but that is really the only place.

http://www.defensetech.org/images/ACU-couch-web.jpg

[Gutshot John]

Reminds me of this old chestnut from Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam" maybe Leo helped design the new ACU. :D

http://www.moviesounds.com/vietnam/fashion.wav

[Failure2Stop]

...Ragnar Gruen...

Erick-
I thought that we all agreed that Viking Colors were off-limits.
If they are back on the table- then I am going for Flat Dark Olaf.