View Full Version : Two calibers, one powder? Oh where is my Reloader 15
The title pretty much says it all, I can't find Reloader 15 locally and I'm trying to avoid the hazmat fee and support my local shop. What say thee as to a powder that can provide accuracy in both .223 and .308. I can vouch for Reloader 15's accuracy in the .223. I'm new to the .308 and buying one powder the performs well for both would simplify matters (and inventory). Thanks guys!
Can you find Norma 202? That stuff is supposed to be the same as R15.
Varget would make an excellent powder for both. But for some reason... every knuckle head on the planet blindly loads Varget even though they're just loading .223. And there are so many better dedicated .223 powders.... These dopes in turn go on the forums and recommend it to new dopes, and here we are. No Varget for thinking loaders.
What bullets are you shooting in .223 and .308?? What are your accuracy expectations?
A good recommendation depends on whether you are shooting heavy bullets in the 223. If so, there are many good "cross-over" powders. Accurate 2495, IMR 4895, etc. all work well. I am currently experimenting with Power Pro 2000-MR in 308 + 223, shooting 168-175 gr in the 308 and 75 gr in the 223. It is supposed to be a slightly slower RL-15 in spherical form. It meters very well and seems to provide excellent velocities, but has to be loaded fairly hot to deliver good accuracy. It is also clean-burning as well. One downside is that it is unsuitable (read: too slow) for any 223 loads with <69 gr.
You could really go off the beaten path and try alternative powders. I am also going to be playing with Leverevolution in 223/308 but don't have any data yet...
I4064 is pretty well available and will work with "most" bullets in each of those two calibers.
AA 2230 works well in both. As long as you aren't shooting too heavy of a bullet for each caliber.
Steel head
02-03-14, 23:01
R 15 has been a ghost, I haven't seen it listed on gunbot for a LONG time.
I'd keep an eye out for Varget as I've been seeing some of it lately.
Also W748 and 8208XBR seem to often be available, both are great in 223 and I see data for 308.
Leaveammoforme
02-03-14, 23:12
If you can not find what you want ,I vote for w748.
I4064 is pretty well available and will work with "most" bullets in each of those two calibers.
IMR 4064 indeed is a nice powder for both. however, I'm hard pressed to find any powder with longer kernels than 4064. That stuff is like rice. A metering nightmare, I'd guess. I only manually scale it, or run it in the chargemaster.
On the advice of this forum, I have 24lbs of Ramshot TAC waiting to fill .223 and .308 cases (waiting for me to have some free time).
If you can't find it, then backorder it...
IMR 4064 indeed is a nice powder for both. however, I'm hard pressed to find any powder with longer kernels than 4064. That stuff is like rice. A metering nightmare, I'd guess. I only manually scale it, or run it in the chargemaster.
Yes, it can be difficult but I have better luck with 4064 in my Chargemaster than I do with Varget. For whatever reason I find myself shaking nearly every varget load back into the hopper a few grains.
Yes, it can be difficult but I have better luck with 4064 in my Chargemaster than I do with Varget. For whatever reason I find myself shaking nearly every varget load back into the hopper a few grains.
I have become a master at fine tuning loads on the chargemaster. When that thing gets into bitch mode, it'll drive you nuts.
I've used only Hodgdon BLC-2 in all my 556 and 7.62s shooting heavy OTMs.
I've seen more and more Alliant powder on the shelves around here. My LGS is getting RL-15 in tomorrow. We are lucky I guess. I use RL-7 for 55gr. Works well but not in 308.
Mark, do you have the programming data to make 21-25 grain charges to run faster in a Chargemaster? Thinking about calling RCBS. That was suggested on another thread. My average time is around 40 seconds.
I don't. I'm not one to mess with electronics. I'm analog to the bone. I've created side tasks so I'm not sitting and waiting on the chargemaster.
Try AR Comp if you find it. Supposed to be a more temp stable version of RL15, but it is a bit faster so it shoots the heavies a little slower.
Second the W748. Use it in .30 and .223.
I like 748 for 55 grain blaster ammo, but it's one of the most temp insensitive powders out there... for that same reason, I don't even dream of messing with any of the Reloader powders. Our temp swings are too great here in AZ. Even Hodgdon's extreme powders require recalibration for summer. FORGET Reloader. Yuck.
Mark, why the hate for RL-15? I have used it in everything from pistols to shotguns. I would still have a supply if my wife hadn't caught me snorting it during the holidays.
I hate it's temp instability. And it's reportedly the powder used in Mk 118LR ammo. I've shot that ammo and it's not as good as Varget. I have no idea why the mil would pic a temp instable powder for an LR round.
People do come up with good rifle loads with R15 and R17 or whatever.... I'm just a fan of the extreme powders from Hodgdon.
Actually most of my statement was in jest but I do use RL-15 as well as Varget and IMR 8208 depending on bullet weight.
As far as I know, RL15 was used in M118, but nobody can confirm what's used in M118LR
As far as I know, RL15 was used in M118, but nobody can confirm what's used in M118LR
Here is a link to the RL-15 official site it states it is the powder used in the 118lr round. Just because the military uses it does not mean it is the best.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx
Here is a link to the RL-15 official site it states it is the powder used in the 118lr round. Just because the military uses it does not mean it is the best.
The "Mk" designation suggests that the Navy is the originator of the load? Generally the Mil is pretty buttoned up on ammo development, and propellent knowledge.
I've shot a bit of the 118LR and it's good, but not better than our Varget load. I'm sure there are some compromises in the ammo in that it probably has to be spec'd to work in a gas gun too..... But I can't figger why they went with RE powder.
The "Mk" designation suggests that the Navy is the originator of the load? Generally the Mil is pretty buttoned up on ammo development, and propellent knowledge.
I've shot a bit of the 118LR and it's good, but not better than our Varget load. I'm sure there are some compromises in the ammo in that it probably has to be spec'd to work in a gas gun too..... But I can't figger why they went with RE powder.
I don't think the MK means navy but I could be wrong. As for going with the RL-15 here is the reason with a link to the whole article on match ammo.
In 1999 the powder type was changed to Alliant Reloder 15. The new nominal charge was 44.3 gr. of RE-15 powder, which produced a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,750 fps from the 24 inch barrel of the M24/M40 with a velocity at 78 feet of approximately 2,700 fps. The reason for the change has not been definitely published, but seems to have to do with some improvement in either temperature stability or accuracy. In any case neither of these cartridges variants was intended for use in the M14, though the early lots of M118LR (those loaded with 42.8 gr. instead of 43.3 gr. of WC750) were suitable for the M14, although hard on the rifles due to the high gas port pressure. Indeed the Marine Corp prohibited the use of the M118LR cartridge in the M14 DMR rifle until 2002
This link is to part II there is a part I as well.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2012/02/cartridges-762-nato-long-range-match_04.html
Interesting....
The result, when it was standardized as the MK316 Mod 0 cartridge, was a Federal modified case (Drawing number 8347636), Federal match primer, Sierra 175 grain Matchking and 41.75 grains of IMR 4064 powder. According to the published sources this load will produce a muzzle velocity of 2640 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. The load as produced by Federal is claimed to produce under 1 MOA out to 1000 yards from an appropriate rifle. With the IMR powder the shift in velocity is only 20 fps from 0 to 100 Deg C, with the Standard deviation in velocity over 40 rounds being 15 fps or less. In contrast the M118LR loaded with RE-15 powder will see a 50 fps rise in velocity for a 50 deg rise in temperature.
The MK316 ammunition is essentially the finest possible mass produced match ammunition, comparable to the hand loads utilized by the various service MTUs. The cost is higher than M118LR, with a government cost of 78 cents per round for the MK 316 Mod 0 rather than 55 cents for the M118LR (2009 prices).
Here is a link to the RL-15 official site it states it is the powder used in the 118lr round. Just because the military uses it does not mean it is the best.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx
It says M118 special ball, not M118LR. Two different loads.
With the shabby availability outlook for VARGET, I'm going to revisit IMR 4064. ekaphoto's link up there shows old 4064 to have much more temp stability than RE15, and Powder valley had 8 pounders in stock today.
eightmillimeter
02-12-14, 14:06
With the shabby availability outlook for VARGET, I'm going to revisit IMR 4064. ekaphoto's link up there shows old 4064 to have much more temp stability than RE15, and Powder valley had 8 pounders in stock today.
You'll have no regrets. Get it while it's available. As far as RL15, Norma 203B is the equivalent. 202 is the old RL12.
Yep. I've always liked IMR 4064. None of my pet loads happen to use it.
I switched from RL15 to AR Comp a couple years ago. Not unhappy with that decision
I've had great luck with Reloader 15, Imr 4064, 3031 and Ramshot tac. Never have had any with Varget for some reason. CFR Is looking promising.
Cabelas had IMR 4064 on the shelves today. And you could get primers large or small for rifle or pistol. Maybe not your favorite kind, but they were there. Everything is priced at absolute miserable full retail naturally.
They also had RE-17 and IMR 4350 I think.
I shoot a lot of 75gr. bullets. Have tried Varget, RL-15, CFE 223 and IMR 8208 XBR. The 8208 is by far my favorite. I can also use it in my .25 WSSM.
I really like RL-15 it works well with my ar's and bench gun in 308 with a 11.25 twist
With the shabby availability outlook for VARGET, I'm going to revisit IMR 4064. ekaphoto's link up there shows old 4064 to have much more temp stability than RE15, and Powder valley had 8 pounders in stock today.
Funny how availability varies from region to region. Plenty of Varget around these parts but no Alliant powder to be found.
That's nuts. Lohman's sites Varget as one of the longest wait time powders. I suppose there could be some 1 pounders here and there locally. I just don't go into gun stores to check.
Is WC844/H335 more readily available to you?
I use WC844 for my .223 and H335 is supposedly the same powder or at least close enough to use the same load data and listed in most manuals for .308 as well, though I've never loaded any .308 with it.
I haven't noticed Varget being terribly difficult to find in my area. If there is any powder at all there is usually Varget on the shelf.
Is WC844/H335 more readily available to you?
Last bit of H335 I had was used for launching monster flash signatures out of my 11.5 SBR. I'd buy a pound of that if I saw some.
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