View Full Version : CHP arrest on-duty firefigher while treating crash victims . . .
Moose-Knuckle
02-06-14, 14:43
Nanny/Police state working for you!
Cop handcuffs on-duty firefighter for not moving truck
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/cop-arrests-on-duty-firefighter-over-parking-feud-150128011.html?vp=1
SilverBullet432
02-06-14, 15:12
Thats sad. Very sad. Made me get a knot in my gut sad.
So when I read the headline I figured: Offduty fireman, pulls up in his Dodge Ram in street clothes to render first aid, and there is a huge misunderstanding... I was shocked to see him in bunker gear at an actual accident...
I don't want to turn this into the typical anti cop thread - but - this really speaks to a "my way, or the highway" mentality on the part of the CHP officer (see what I did there). Even if he was right - one would think that he would have said to himself: "self, you are in the right, but the guy is a fire fighter, treating victims, and he is in uniform, and there are TV camera's rolling, and right or wrong, I'm going to look like an idiotic 'triple A with a badge' schmuck by arresting this guy... I am so glad I moved out of that crazy ass state...
I think this, and things like this, are in the minority, which is why they make the news. I do not for a second think that cop is like all, or most, LEOs. He is a schmuck who needs some serious disciplining.
JBecker 72
02-06-14, 15:48
I normally try to stay out of these types of threads, but I can honestly say I feel that officer should lose his job for this. What an asshat.
Moose-Knuckle
02-06-14, 15:59
Not sure about CA, but here it is standard operating procedure for our FD's to park their apparatuses in a way so as to shield themselves and their patients from oncoming traffic. If this is the attitude that CHP takes with FD then I hope they never need EMS. Would that trooper arrested him if he was treating a fellow trooper on the highway? Do they arrest ambulance drivers for busting red lights and or speeding enroute to or from a call?
This is a shining example of how asinine that place is, it is void of all logic.
Whiskey_Bravo
02-06-14, 16:00
I normally try to stay out of these types of threads, but I can honestly say I feel that officer should lose his job for this. What an asshat.
I do to. If he is willing to do that to an on duty firefighter actively treating accident victims on scene over the parking of an engine, I can only imagine how he treats the general public.
Not the first time and it won't be the last........ :mad:
Cop Vs. Fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O0O0TaQBE0
Cop Vs. EMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4G37Ouy164
.
Should be dealt with accordingly.....as in fired. If I did that, I would expect to NOT HAVE A JOB as soon as my Sgt, LT, CPT, and Chief found out.
Not sure about CA, but here it is standard operating procedure for our FD's to park their apparatuses in a way so as to shield themselves and their patients from oncoming traffic. If this is the attitude that CHP takes with FD then I hope they never need EMS. Would that trooper arrested him if he was treating a fellow trooper on the highway? Do they arrest ambulance drivers for busting red lights and or speeding enroute to or from a call?
This is a shining example of how asinine that place is, it is void of all logic.
I understand what you are saying, but in my area I have seen the Fire Department respond to a six lane interstate and block all three lanes traveling in one direction to treat someone on the right shoulder. They had traffic at a stand still and some of us were curious why they could not open one lane. They would still have two lanes and a shoulder to work with and I was curious why 32' was not enough room to treat the person parked on the shoulder.
Where was the truck parked in this particular incident and why didn't the fireman move it when the CHP officer told him to? Before we hang the CHP officer, let's get a few more details.
Do they arrest ambulance drivers for busting red lights and or speeding enroute to or from a call?
actually we get tickets here at our Service if we do more than 80mph(70mph is Indiana Speed Limit) on an interstate, 70(60mph speed limit) on a state highway, and 50(35mph speed limit) on a state highway that runs through a town.
actually we get tickets here at our Service if we do more than 80mph(70mph is Indiana Speed Limit) on an interstate, 70(60mph speed limit) on a state highway, and 50(35mph speed limit) on a state highway that runs through a town.
If you have your emergency lights activated and are responding to a bonafide emergency, I think LEO should give you some consideration.
If you have your emergency lights activated and are responding to a bonafide emergency, I think LEO should give you some consideration.
Consideration? I don't give two craps, they can go as fast as they think they can go if they are running hot/lights (or whatever their policy says). Just don't get in to an accident lol.
WOW talk about complete lack of judgement.
Consideration? I don't give two craps, they can go as fast as they think they can go if they are running hot/lights (or whatever their policy says). Just don't get in to an accident lol.
Same opinion here.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-06-14, 16:59
As has been posted before, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last we see something like this happen. I would have liked to have seen the apparatus positioning, but if the driver was refusing to move the rig then I'm betting he was erring on the side of the safety of his crew and the patients. If I have to choose between getting arrested or protecting my crew I'll take the bracelets every time, because my guys are going home. I've also heard that the heads of both agencies are already meeting to eliminate this happening in the future.
As a driver/operator, my concern is being able to position my apparatus in a way to maximize the effectiveness of the blocking for the safety of the responding crew, period. If I'm able to do that and allow traffic to be able to get by safely, then I'm all for it. Sometimes the scene allows for that, sometimes it doesn't. It's up to the IC to work with State Patrol/Highway Patrol/local LE to figure out if a road needs to be shut down. If a road does have to be shut down, then there is an urgency for the crews to work as quickly as possible in order to get everyone off the road and get things opened up again. Cooperation (and a good dose of humility on both sides) is crucial in multi-agency responses like this.
So when I read the headline I figured: Offduty fireman, pulls up in his Dodge Ram in street clothes to render first aid, and there is a huge misunderstanding... I was shocked to see him in bunker gear at an actual accident...
I don't want to turn this into the typical anti cop thread - but - this really speaks to a "my way, or the highway" mentality on the part of the CHP officer (see what I did there). Even if he was right - one would think that he would have said to himself: "self, you are in the right, but the guy is a fire fighter, treating victims, and he is in uniform, and there are TV camera's rolling, and right or wrong, I'm going to look like an idiotic 'triple A with a badge' schmuck by arresting this guy... I am so glad I moved out of that crazy ass state...
Saved me a LOT of typing.
This guy did not get the "We're all in this together trying to help people" memo and he needs to find a more suitable occupation. Creating a friction / strain between LE and rescue workers (not to mention the public) is possibly one of the absolute worst things a "first responder" of any kind can do.
actually we get tickets here at our Service if we do more than 80mph(70mph is Indiana Speed Limit) on an interstate, 70(60mph speed limit) on a state highway, and 50(35mph speed limit) on a state highway that runs through a town.
Let me guess. ISP every time?
Let me guess. ISP every time?
Thats who our service has write the tickets. The local city dept and county dept won't do it
While where I work we often joke about fire taking up three lanes to apply a band-aid, we also cede some authority if they are actively treating injuries or addressing hazards. They establish the room they feel they need to work safely. While we may ask how long they may need for the purpose of diverting traffic, we really don't try to hurry them, they are not trying to be out there any longer than they have to.
Fortunately, I have never seen anything like this, and if I did I would address it right away. Even if the FF was being an asshat, there is a way to do things in the public eye that involves a bit of decorum and common sense. If there is some kind of bona fide emergency that trumps the current emergency, then you explain that to the ranking personnel and let them deal with their people. Moving stuck traffic on the freeway ten minutes sooner than later is not such an emergency.
Most all of our FD personnel are pretty good about this kind of thing. They do get pretty testy about driving over their hoses though.....
ShortytheFirefighter
02-06-14, 17:26
Most all of our FD personnel are pretty good about this kind of thing. They do get pretty testy about driving over their hoses though.....
To be fair, our own Chiefs do it too ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roTHmpxirNY
I appreciate all that our fire dept does for us (police dept) on crash investigations. They always park the pumper or ladder in such a way to provide a barrier for coming traffic. I've seen pumpers ran into by sober and intoxicated drivers not paying attention. Yes even with all their emergency lights on..
Where I'm at there's no pissing contest. We get in, do our shit and leave.
Not sure about CA, but here it is standard operating procedure for our FD's to park their apparatuses in a way so as to shield themselves and their patients from oncoming traffic. If this is the attitude that CHP takes with FD then I hope they never need EMS. Would that trooper arrested him if he was treating a fellow trooper on the highway? Do they arrest ambulance drivers for busting red lights and or speeding enroute to or from a call?
This is a shining example of how asinine that place is, it is void of all logic.
It is in CA as well. And there are misdemeanor laws about interfering with public servants on scene (which, c'mon, you think are really going to be put on this guy?)
The real conflict is who really 'owns' the accident scene. CHP is a state level agency, vice the usual county or city FD/EMS agencies (or heck, even private EMS). Most of rural CA is under CDF, which is a state level fire agency. Either way, in about 8 years of EMS in CA, I never saw cops give much flack to how/where the Fire and EMS guys positioned things. The cops usually just encompassed the entire scene and blocked as much as was needed.
That being said, CHP are wizards at getting the streets open and keeping traffic moving. I wish every state had such a priority on clearing the scene after the accident has been handled.
In CA, the law is that running Code 3 (lights/siren) can only go 15 over posted speed limit (IIRC, that test was a while ago). I've never seen anyone get a ticket for that; though I have seen emergency vehicles get parking tickets.
Maybe the guy will get disiplined. Maybe the fire guys will just screw with CHP and find some fire code violations at their substation.
How much credibility is this guy going to have in court from now on?
I can see an "administrative" transfer to Death Valley in this guys future. Needs of the department and all.
While where I work we often joke about fire taking up three lanes to apply a band-aid, we also cede some authority if they are actively treating injuries or addressing hazards. They establish the room they feel they need to work safely. While we may ask how long they may need for the purpose of diverting traffic, we really don't try to hurry them, they are not trying to be out there any longer than they have to.
Fortunately, I have never seen anything like this, and if I did I would address it right away. Even if the FF was being an asshat, there is a way to do things in the public eye that involves a bit of decorum and common sense. If there is some kind of bona fide emergency that trumps the current emergency, then you explain that to the ranking personnel and let them deal with their people. Moving stuck traffic on the freeway ten minutes sooner than later is not such an emergency.
Most all of our FD personnel are pretty good about this kind of thing. They do get pretty testy about driving over their hoses though.....
This is a very good post and it expresses how most LEO feel.
TacMedic556
02-06-14, 22:22
I have been in this line of work for 13 years now. I cannot fathom how these situations escalate to this point. A few years back there was a similar incident, and the arresting officer lost his job as a result (if I remember correctly). This case is similar and there were patients still requiring aid.
The placement of engines to protect a scene is protocol everywhere. The incident commander is 99% of the time the first arriving fire officer. This police officer really had no right to order movement of the apparatus. Traffic movement is a non issue. People in cars getting to where ever on time IS NOT A PRIORITY. The flow of traffic is NOT a priority.
In the end we are all brothers and sisters doing the same job. Let's do it right and save lives. Hope this is settled well and apologies are made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LC6oqLhbr0
I have been in this line of work for 13 years now. I cannot fathom how these situations escalate to this point. A few years back there was a similar incident, and the arresting officer lost his job as a result (if I remember correctly). This case is similar and there were patients still requiring aid.
The placement of engines to protect a scene is protocol everywhere. The incident commander is 99% of the time the first arriving fire officer. This police officer really had no right to order movement of the apparatus. Traffic movement is a non issue. People in cars getting to where ever on time IS NOT A PRIORITY. The flow of traffic is NOT a priority.
In the end we are all brothers and sisters doing the same job. Let's do it right and save lives. Hope this is settled well and apologies are made.
Very well said. It surprises me sometimes that some officers do not realize that at many of these scenes, the IC is Fire and not LE.
eightmillimeter
02-06-14, 23:18
Have I seen emergency vehicles do terrible jobs of parking at crash scenes... yes, all the time. There is a right and wrong way to do it and on a high-traffic freeway it gets a little dicey. Parking a fire truck in the middle of a lane that is not already blocked (without additional traffic control vehicles to the rear) is wrong and dangerous. Usually its the police car with the dash cam rolling that gets hit from behind smashing everyone in between wreckage and now a large fire truck that isn't going to move much. That said, I never so much as mention it to the fire boys when they show up because 1) I am professional enough to let it go, 2) they can settle the lawsuit when the crash happens.
Was the CHP (and the officer in above older video) correct in their concern? Yes. Should they have addressed it with the firefighters when they obviously had something better to do (EMS)? No. Should they have been a big enough tard to escalate a situation like that? F-CK NO!
It's been a few years, but back when I was working in Utah I went to a seminar out on by UDOT about incident command/secondary incident etc etc. While at that seminar UDOT specifically mentioned that in Utah the UHP does NOT "own" the road and can not order Fire aparatus placement etc.
Believe it or not the UDOT road recovery/driver assistance people owned the road and were the only people legally allowed to make PD/FD/UHP move vehicles etc.
Whiskey_Bravo
02-07-14, 07:40
Where was the truck parked in this particular incident and why didn't the fireman move it when the CHP officer told him to? Before we hang the CHP officer, let's get a few more details.
Doesn't really matter where the truck was parked, and I assume he didn't move it being an active scene and he was busy. If the officer didn't like it that much he should have waited until there was no more EMS needs and take it up with the FF and his commanding officer after the fact. Arresting another civil servant, especially in public on an active scene who is providing medical service over a parking job is the height of stupidity and and shows a lack of judgement that should call into question his previous and future actions.
Just my opinion though.
Bolt_Overide
02-07-14, 08:05
Obviously we cannot know what the officers thoughts were. But the video gives the impression that it was a "you will respect my athoritai" type of moment. Fortunately this seems to be a less common mindset with LEO, I've only encountered it once in my lifetime. I don't wish being fired on the man, but I do hope that he either learns to adjust his attitude, or gets moved somewhere he doesn't deal with the public.
[QUOTE=TacMedic556;1850801]I have been in this line of work for 13 years now. I cannot fathom how these situations escalate to this point. A few years back there was a similar incident, and the arresting officer lost his job as a result (if I remember correctly). This case is similar and there were patients still requiring aid.
The placement of engines to protect a scene is protocol everywhere. The incident commander is 99% of the time the first arriving fire officer. This police officer really had no right to order movement of the apparatus. Traffic movement is a non issue. People in cars getting to where ever on time IS NOT A PRIORITY. The flow of traffic is NOT a priority.
In the end we are all brothers and sisters doing the same job. Let's do it right and save lives. Hope this is settled well and apologies are made.
QUOTE]
Thanks for the video.
http://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-safety/articles/350877-Fire-captain-arrested-for-apparatus-placement-awarded-17-500-in-Mo/
The captain won in federal court.
I think this, and things like this, are in the minority, which is why they make the news. I do not for a second think that cop is like all, or most, LEOs. He is a schmuck who needs some serious disciplining.
Or needs a new profession if he can't check his ego at the door.
When I was a medic we didn't have this issue with NCSHP. Sure, from time to time local LEOs felt a need to exert some testosterone, but that was rare. The highway patrol was always professional and helpful.
Sounds like this cop would make a PERFECT mod here on M4. :dance3:
Moose-Knuckle
02-07-14, 14:39
I have been in this line of work for 13 years now. I cannot fathom how these situations escalate to this point. A few years back there was a similar incident, and the arresting officer lost his job as a result (if I remember correctly). This case is similar and there were patients still requiring aid.
The placement of engines to protect a scene is protocol everywhere. The incident commander is 99% of the time the first arriving fire officer. This police officer really had no right to order movement of the apparatus. Traffic movement is a non issue. People in cars getting to where ever on time IS NOT A PRIORITY. The flow of traffic is NOT a priority.
In the end we are all brothers and sisters doing the same job. Let's do it right and save lives. Hope this is settled well and apologies are made.
Outstanding post and mirrors my thoughts on the matter.
SeriousStudent
02-07-14, 22:39
Sounds like this cop would make a PERFECT mod here on M4. :dance3:
Nope, he failed the screening process. He could not pull off a convincing German accent.
Many moons ago when I used to drive a big white bus, I was nearly given a ticket for parking at an accident. My partner and I were working a scene where a day care center van got T-boned by a DUI. I think we had 7 injured kids, it might have been 8. Driver was DRT, and three of the kids were real bad.
A relatively new officer wanted to write me a citation. My battalion chief came on-scene the same time as the police patrol sergeant. They had a brief conversation - AFTER they both helped me package the kids for transport.
I have no idea what happened to the citation on that. I do know what happened to the officer.
And that patrol sergeant was an awesome dude. He saved my FTO's life about a year later.
If I was that guy's supervisor he's need a booster cushion for his patrol car, cause he'd have no ass left when he exited my office! :(
Although this particular incident does not seem to be the case, I have had fire and EMS personnel get in the way and be downright idiotic on crime scenes.
In one specific incident, a paramedic decided not to listen to me as to where to enter the specific residence and decided to roll his stretcher and walk all over the blood evidence at my crime scene. I did not arrest him but I did call his chief.
In another incident, we called the fire department for lighting and when they arrived, they parked their trucks inside my crime scene. It wasn't until I showed the Chief that one of the trucks was parked over a spent shell casing that they decided to listen to me and move.
In this incident, just the simple fact that the officer cuffed him and then released him proves he didn't have any cause to arrest the firefighter and made himself and his department look bad.
Here in Phoenix we get along with fire really well. They get a bit of training on crime scene stuff and generally are really good at not ****ing up crime scenes.
This guys is a ****ing idiot.
Nope, he failed the screening process. He could not pull off a convincing German accent.
You're awesome. The guy in the video is a dipshit.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-08-14, 12:48
Well, lets apply some Search and Seizure logic to this: Reasonable Suspicion: No. Probable Cause: No.Investiative detainment: No, because physical force was used to seize the FF, therefore "Terry" Stop not in place and an Arrest in Custody was made. Violation of 4th Amendment?????
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.