View Full Version : 1:7 twist with .22?
I had another post about me purchasing my first ar. That thread went down hill at a fairly fast rate so I will not be mentioning what brand of ar I am going with. But I have a question about some .22 conversion kits. One that I saw got some decent reviews (albeit on YouTube so I take that with a grain of salt) but the cmmg conversion is one that I am referring to. I know that the videos I've seen were using a 1:9 twist out of a 16" barrel. The rifle I would be getting has a 1:7 twist. Is that an issue with .22?
I know that .22 have a higher twist rate because the bullets are lighter so I don't know if 1:7 will stabilize it enough. I've also heard various opinions on the cmmg kit because it's only replacing the bcg. So would it be a better option to just buy a dedicated .22 upper? Thank you in advance for any help. And for any members that were in my other thread you should have gotten a pm but if not, thank you for the advice in that thread as well.
1:7 is too fast for 22lr but it should still shoot it ok. Most people who have the 22lr conversion kits say your accuracy will suffer in a barrel with 1:7 or 1:9
Technically you are better off buying a complete 22lr upper or rifle altogether. But if you are on a budget the CMMG 22lr conversion is a good choice if you are just plinking with it. Just don't expect the conversion kit with a 1:7 or 1:9 to be as accurate as a 22lr upper.
I have the M&P15-22 which has a 1:15 twist rate. Its pretty accurate for my uses. Before I bought it, I was debating on buying the 22lr conversion kits, but I ended up buying a complete rifle instead.
I would assume I could get a complete upper with a 1:15 (or close) twist for around $300 right? I'll look online now to see. The one thing that does worry me more than the accuracy is the reports of the .22 clogging the gas port in the barrel. But then I've read that it's only if using lead.
I would assume I could get a complete upper with a 1:15 (or close) twist for around $300 right? I'll look online now to see. The one thing that does worry me more than the accuracy is the reports of the .22 clogging the gas port in the barrel. But then I've read that it's only if using lead.
Yes, you can get a complete .22lr upper for around $300. I think they're not DI, just use the actual recoil to operate their BCG. Easy enough to set it up to mimic your 5.56 upper if desired. Only real downside is the lower gets dirtier.
No affiliation, but Core 15 has some 5.56/.22lr upper combos right now. No idea how their quality is, but look on TOS if you want.
I would assume I could get a complete upper with a 1:15 (or close) twist for around $300 right? I'll look online now to see. The one thing that does worry me more than the accuracy is the reports of the .22 clogging the gas port in the barrel. But then I've read that it's only if using lead.
Then why title the thread about 1/7 twist and instead make it about clogging gas ports.
This should help below.
Here is one : https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-26693.html
Just search .22 conversions and you will find threads to answer not just these questions, but literally anything else you can come up with question wise regarding the .22 converion kits. Trust me, you may not think it's been asked, but most likely it has been, numerous times.
Personally, if you have been on arfcom or the other "ar" forums, you basically have to relearn everything here as you quickly find that 99% of the crap on other forums is just that... crap.
I just looked really quick and it seems like that is about the price point of most of the .22 uppers. The lower getting dirty is not as much as a issue for me because I clean my firearms completely after every range trip no matter how many rounds I shot.
As to the cost. I am looking to buy a .22 conversion mostly to practice with and play around. Then when I want to shoot 5.56 I can. In my thinking I would rather have a 5.56 rifle that I can shoot .22 with than to buy a .22 rifle and be stuck with it being only .22.
I tried to search but didn't find anything conclusive. I am using tapatalk so that may have something to do with it. I titled it this because I am still concerned with accuracy but another concern is clogging of the has port. But now that I see what I can get a new upper for I may not need to worry about either of those.
I would assume I could get a complete upper with a 1:15 (or close) twist for around $300 right? I'll look online now to see. The one thing that does worry me more than the accuracy is the reports of the .22 clogging the gas port in the barrel. But then I've read that it's only if using lead.
It's not my money or gun so personally I'm not really invested. I'm just more curious as to why you were sweating spending a couple hundred extra bucks to secure a proven better quality rifle, but have no worries about dropping $300 or so on a .22 upper after you have purchased a rifle.
I'm not looking to get this thread off track and this is going to be my last reply in here. I also mean no offense by this question, as I'm a "to each his own" type of person. :cool: Again, more just curiosity then anything at this point.
Good luck, hope you get something you enjoy and shoot the S*** out of it!
No offense taken at all. I will try to answer the question the best way I can. So, I am thinking about dropping another $300 on another upper because I would be able to use it. As opposed to spending that $300 on a better rifle where I doubt I'd notice any difference in use. I'll go back to my tool example again. Say I have a hammer, one is $20 the other one is $40. Both will do the same thing I want which is pound a few nails on the occasional project. Both have similar construction and both look the same. Logical I'd pick the cheaper one because there is a higher likely hood of me not being able to tell the difference in the way it hammers a nail.
That is my thinking with the rifle. Now that isn't a good example but that's all I can think of. But now say since I bought that cheaper hammer I can now have money left to buy other tools (.22 conversion). So then I'd have a hammer that does what it should and say a set of screw drivers.
I can't think of any other way to explain my thinking. But it may not be the right way to think but that's the way I am.
And I just tried to search from my computer and I did find a few threads on similar questions. I guess I just need to figure out how to word it right.
JBecker 72
02-06-14, 20:01
I had one of those CMMG conversion kits and it was a piece of junk. If you could get a dedicated upper for only $100 more, go for it.
That's what I'm thinking now. The .22 upper wouldn't have a gas port right? The cmmg kit is $200 something so the difference is negligible.
No offense taken at all. I will try to answer the question the best way I can. So, I am thinking about dropping another $300 on another upper because I would be able to use it. As opposed to spending that $300 on a better rifle where I doubt I'd notice any difference in use. I'll go back to my tool example again. Say I have a hammer, one is $20 the other one is $40. Both will do the same thing I want which is pound a few nails on the occasional project. Both have similar construction and both look the same. Logical I'd pick the cheaper one because there is a higher likely hood of me not being able to tell the difference in the way it hammers a nail.
That is my thinking with the rifle. Now that isn't a good example but that's all I can think of. But now say since I bought that cheaper hammer I can now have money left to buy other tools (.22 conversion). So then I'd have a hammer that does what it should and say a set of screw drivers.
I can't think of any other way to explain my thinking. But it may not be the right way to think but that's the way I am.
And I just tried to search from my computer and I did find a few threads on similar questions. I guess I just need to figure out how to word it right.
Are you talking about spending $300 on a regular 223/5.56 DI upper?? This may make more sense, as you can use it to shoot both 22lr and 223.
On a previous post, you talked about a 1:15 upper. For $100 more you might as well buy a complete M&P15-22 rifle for $400 that is properly configured to shoot 22lr.
That's what I'm thinking now. The .22 upper wouldn't have a gas port right? The cmmg kit is $200 something so the difference is negligible.
No, a dedicated 22lr should not have a gas port. 22lr are Blowback operated, not gas operated/DI.
Leaveammoforme
02-07-14, 03:46
No offense taken at all. I will try to answer the question the best way I can. So, I am thinking about dropping another $300 on another upper because I would be able to use it. As opposed to spending that $300 on a better rifle where I doubt I'd notice any difference in use. I'll go back to my tool example again. Say I have a hammer, one is $20 the other one is $40. Both will do the same thing I want which is pound a few nails on the occasional project. Both have similar construction and both look the same. Logical I'd pick the cheaper one because there is a higher likely hood of me not being able to tell the difference in the way it hammers a nail.
That is my thinking with the rifle. Now that isn't a good example but that's all I can think of. But now say since I bought that cheaper hammer I can now have money left to buy other tools (.22 conversion). So then I'd have a hammer that does what it should and say a set of screw drivers.
I can't think of any other way to explain my thinking. But it may not be the right way to think but that's the way I am.
And I just tried to search from my computer and I did find a few threads on similar questions. I guess I just need to figure out how to word it right.
Only problem with your hammers is one is a sledge hammer (1/7) and the other is a claw hammer (1/15). Guess which one will drive nails better.
The thing with the hammers was with the other thread he was referring to.
I if I do anything with a conversion at this point I would be getting a dedicated separate .22 upper. In addition to the 5.56 upper that comes on the rifle
19trax95:
I kinda feel where you are coming from.
I wanted to do the occaissional cheap plinking/train new shooters with the 22LR kits. I didn't want to spend extra money to duplicate mil-spec accessories, like BUIS/RDS on a dedicated 22LR upper/rifle to exactly mimic my 5.56mm's setups.
I have two Ceiner ($130 each, IIRC) and one old school Colt AR15 22LR conversion kits. All three have been extremely reliable with their respective mags, and the Ceiners with Gen1 27rd & Gen2 30rd Black Dog 22LR magazines. I personally prefer the more expensive CCI Minimags, but other ammo have shot fine.
I have shot them through various Colt carbines with 1/7" and 1/9" pencil barrels. They have been very accurate, but I only shoot 22LR at 50 yds.
The kits come in a compact plastic case, and along with a couple of tiny 22LR ammo boxes, I keep them in my range bag all the time just in case I want to plink anytime. So the conversion kits serve my purpose well. When I'm done playin with 22LR, I fire a few rounds of 5.56mm to blast any possible gas port blockage away.
One word of caution is 22LR ammo doesn't shoot exactly POA/POI as 5.56mm. Just an inch or so difference at 50 yds. With a dedicated 22LR upper/entire rifle, you can always keep the sights dialed in for your favorite 22LR fodder and not change your sight settings back and forth. I shoot for small groups and don't play with my 5.56mm settings.
At the moment, the point is moot as I'm almost out of 22LR ammo and not paying 5.56mm prices for them until they come down in price/availability.
Also, you have it backwards in worrying if 1/7" will stabilize 22LR because it is too slow. In fact 1/7" is quite "fast" for 22LR. Optimum 22LR twist rate is 1/16", which is "slower." (i.e. Spinning the projectile slower.)
I bought a CMMG conversion kit for my AR with Black Dog magazines and it works fine. With my 1:8 barrel, it's accurate enough to break clay pigeons out to 100 yards. After shooting 22 LR, I remove the conversion kit and fire a few centerfire rounds to blow out the lead. I like the conversion kit because I'm using the same upper & sights as my HD carbine
Here's a good thread about conversion kits
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94908-quot-Best-22cal-conversion-kit-for-the-AR15-M4-quot
Most 22 LR use a 1:16 twist because the bullet is so short and usually round nosed. Tighter twists are need to stabilize long bullets with pointed noses and boatails.
I read your other thread you're referring to. Think about your own contribution to it going sideways and how you can avoid that in the future. You can learn much from folks on this forum once you learn how to settle in. Here's something written by a man far wiser than I which I think will help you
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
I have the M&P15-22 which has a 1:15 twist rate. Its pretty accurate for my uses. Before I bought it, I was debating on buying the 22lr conversion kits, but I ended up buying a complete rifle instead.
I bought one of these and was really surprised how accurate it was with most brands of 22,I can hit steel silhouettes easily @75 yds which I was very
happy with. Pete
I've tossed the rimfire idea back and forth for quite some time now, as my fiancé all but demanded a 22lr carbine... For $400 I can have a 15-22 rifle that does one thing really well. Given that I've spent that on lower parts for a rifle more than once, it's an easy decision to not have to compromise on a "good enough" conversion kit at 30% of the price of the complete build. Also have a little 1-4 rimfire optic for it from an old varmint gun...
I definitely am going to go with a separate upper. It seems like those have less issues from reading those threads linked above. But I think I will shoot and get used to the 5.56 rifle before I go changing stuff up. Then afterwards I can get the upper. Thank you everyone. Some very helpful info in here and on this site.
I kind of skimmed through... but thought I'd throw my two cents in on twist rate vs accuracy.
I have one of the cmmg stainless conversion kits and had a 1:7 barrel on my last rifle. Standing with a 2moa aimpoint I could still hit bowling pins at 100 yards with the 22 conversion, so while I'm sure it would be better in a slower twist, it's not terrible in a fast twist.
SurplusShooter
02-10-14, 08:43
I used to run a .22 kit in my AR. Then I "ringed" a barrel due to a squib .22. If it was a 22 only I would have let it go, but since it was a 5.56 also I had to get it replace. You have to understand .22 ammo is dirty and subject to misfires much more than Centerfire ammo, and now you are running that junk thru the same rifle you want to use for serious purposes? No, I wouldn't.
I eventually learned my lesson the hard way after the ruined barrel: if you want a .22, then buy a dedicated .22 upper or buy a S&W M&P-15-22 rifle. it works much better and you'll be happier in the long-run.
The 1:7 twist may lead up in the rifling and the gas tube.
(Original rifle non-issue when ceiner conversion designed "1:14 /1:12" twist rifles) Over stabilizing of the lead bullet causing less accurate shot group. Possibly more accurate with heavier/ subsonic ammo
I have a complete upper setup that I use, matching a upper I have with an ACOG. (It costs as much as a M&P 22 and then some.) I still have all the crud from firing 22LR in the lower, but the same trigger pull.
If the intended usage is 100-200 rnds I'd stick to a conversion unit if higher volume completely upper or rifle. I'm one that is a high volume use 300- 1200 rnds at the range.
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