View Full Version : Interesting Kahr CM9 issue
warpedcamshaft
02-09-14, 00:04
I figured I would quickly share an interesting problem that I discovered with my wife's Kahr CM9.
I think it teaches an interesting lesson... (for me anyways)
She chose a CM9 for her second handgun, and I promptly snatched it up and put several hundred rounds through it, and made sight adjustments with our "family" 9mm defensive ammunition selection.
After that, aside from her shooting it several times I never gave it another thought, aside from noticing that the trigger felt strange at the end of its pull compared to the several other Kahrs I have spent time with.
Fast forward several months to when the temperatures drop low... (Double digit negatives). During a trip to the range, the CM9 was allowed to reach a thermodynamic equilibrium with about 10 degree air. When I arrived at the range and pulled the pistol from it's case... the pistol would not fire!!! I tested this multiple times by leaving the firearm in the cold and found that I could not trip the sear and make the striker fall.
It turns out that the tolerances of the trigger and the polymer frame would not allow the sear to trip in cold temperatures. I then sent the unit off for repair. All is good now, but... just remember to test your equipment in every temperature you may encounter if you live in the cold states.
Had something similar occur with a polymer framed pistol. Below about 35°F some of the magazines quit dropping free. If the gun warmed up it was not an issue. I later had material removed from a few spots where it was becoming tight when the frame contracted due to cold and the problem was solved.
HardToHandle
02-09-14, 08:10
Not too surprising in a Kahr. Swiss watch tolerances but not comparable reliability.
The polymer frames do significantly flex or at least harmonics change. I had similar concerns as occasional FTF occurred below 20F. The slide velocity became noticeable slower. Had to be especially limited with lubrication when winter came.
I was careful when it got cold with my PM9. I kept the gun close to my body for warmth in an IWB. I did not feel comfortable with pocket carry due to the lower temp. However, no issues in the K40 with the cold.
The K40's barrel liner did unscrew itself with 180 grain bullets though... I grew real tired with Kahr design compromises.
I use Brian Enos's "Slide-Glide" "Lite" during the winter months on my PM9 and other pistols. The rest of the year I run the "Standard". But since my PM9 is my warm weather EDC I have not seen this issue. During the colder months either my G26, G19, or USPC .40 gets the duty. And being EDC they have my body warmth to moderate their temperatures.
I have not had this problem with the all steel pistols.
But, consider this, for a CCW pistol it would most likely be close to your body anyway and this would not be an issue.
IMO, the Khar pistols are some of the best in the world. They are my favorite among anything else I have shot.
[QUOTE=Armati;1852430
IMO, the Khar pistols are some of the best in the world. They are my favorite among anything else I have shot.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree!!!
I must live in the same part of the country as the OP as it has been -30 to -50 windchills for several weeks. -19 at 8:30 this morning and I don't bother looking the rest of the day as I know it is cold and it isn't going to get much warmer any time soon.
I own several PM series Kahr's and I appreciate their quality and I personally have not had a single issue with any of them. They are amazingly accurate for their compact size. A PM9 and/or PM45 is my constant companion. Don't leave the house without one. As has been stated, mine rest next to my body so the warmth apparantly has kept them from the issue mentioned. Definitely good info to be aware of though. Thanks for the heads up.
Not too surprising in a Kahr. Swiss watch tolerances but not comparable reliability.
The polymer frames do significantly flex or at least harmonics change. I had similar concerns as occasional FTF occurred below 20F. The slide velocity became noticeable slower. Had to be especially limited with lubrication when winter came.
I was careful when it got cold with my PM9. I kept the gun close to my body for warmth in an IWB. I did not feel comfortable with pocket carry due to the lower temp. However, no issues in the K40 with the cold.
The K40's barrel liner did unscrew itself with 180 grain bullets though... I grew real tired with Kahr design compromises.
Not to be a dick, but Kahr barrels do not have liners. The problem with Kahr is not the tightness or the design, but rather, they have idiots working on their assembly lines. The two issues we see in Kahr's are trigger bar related and broken follower related. The trigger bar issue is one of fitment, where the trigger does not release (sound familiar!). What they're trying to do is get the FCG fit in a way that gives very litle trigger over-travel. They cut the margin too close and the pistol wont fire. The other issue is the barrel ramp nose smacking the magazine follower when the last round is fired. You can trim (or the factory can trim) about .025 off the ramp's length and you're good to go again. Stupid ass fitting and assembly mistakes. I've got to believe that this is from balls to the wall production, getting the stuff out the door to fill orders.
From purely the design standpoint... its not a bad design. Weakest link is neither the FCG nor the barrel fitment, but... that pesky slide stop spring.
I'd like to hear more about the "barrel liner" because all Kahr barrels are hammer forged, final machined, then nickel plated for lubricity.
I probably ought to add that the FN FNX series had cold weather issues too. I happen to have an FNX-45 (and three Kahr PM series 45's and 9mm). Yes, they all got put in the -10 degree freezer (about as cold as mine gets in the winter here due to increased humidity). They passed. FN took steps to correct the issue. Kahr.... can't say they have.
HardToHandle
02-09-14, 21:45
Not to be a dick, but Kahr barrels do not have liners.
I'd like to hear more about the "barrel liner" because all Kahr barrels are hammer forged, final machined, then nickel plated for lubricity.
I'll call BS. The initial K40 production run did have a chamber insert as it unscrewed and backed up in my K40's action. That necessitated a trip to the factory (~2001).
I had a discussion with Kahr Customer Service last year when they said "that's impossible" over the phone. They then had to eat crow when they verified their records. Hence Kahr has some design issues... and customer service issues.
Feel free to use your own words to describe this condition... It ain't supposed to look that way.
http://s23.postimg.org/vnl716hsb/Kahr_Issue2.jpg
http://s30.postimg.org/mdrybpt5t/Kahr_Issue1_copy.jpg
Thanks for the pictures! And now I'm going to go to Ian over at Kahr and get educated.
My initial thought is what I'm seeing is not a liner per-se, but a barrel assembly like many 1911 and Sig barrels are assembled. That is, the chamber area is turned down and fit into a seperately machined locking unit. Springfield barrels (and lots of others) are made this way, and so are (at least) the early SIG barrels. My guess is that the chamber area of the barrel itself (no liner) broke free and backed out. Not sure if its screwed into place... most are just silver brazed.
Still not trying to be a dick, and I do appreciate the insight. And thank you for the homework project.
HardToHandle
02-09-14, 22:11
Thanks for the pictures! And now I'm going to go to Ian over at Kahr and get educated.
My initial thought is what I'm seeing is not a liner per-se, but a barrel assembly like many 1911 and Sig barrels are assembled. That is, the chamber area is turned down and fit into a seperately machined locking unit. Springfield barrels (and lots of others) are made this way, and so are (at least) the early SIG barrels. My guess is that the chamber area of the barrel itself (no liner) broke free and backed out. Not sure if its screwed into place... most are just silver brazed.
Still not trying to be a dick, and I do appreciate the insight. And thank you for the homework project.
It's all good. Maybe you can raise some awareness.
I am still butthurt a decade later about Kahr not standing behind this gun nor a PM9 I owned that had issues later on. Add in the fact that some models aren't reliable in climatic conditions that impact 75% of the U.S., I would only recommend Kahr pistols to communists, Sean Penn and similar malcontents, as the design and execution are flawed, coupled with lousy New England customer service.
[/RANT]
Not to be a dick, but Kahr barrels do not have liners. The problem with Kahr is not the tightness or the design, but rather, they have idiots working on their assembly lines. The two issues we see in Kahr's are trigger bar related and broken follower related. The trigger bar issue is one of fitment, where the trigger does not release (sound familiar!). What they're trying to do is get the FCG fit in a way that gives very litle trigger over-travel. They cut the margin too close and the pistol wont fire. The other issue is the barrel ramp nose smacking the magazine follower when the last round is fired. You can trim (or the factory can trim) about .025 off the ramp's length and you're good to go again. Stupid ass fitting and assembly mistakes. I've got to believe that this is from balls to the wall production, getting the stuff out the door to fill orders.
From purely the design standpoint... its not a bad design. Weakest link is neither the FCG nor the barrel fitment, but... that pesky slide stop spring.
I'd like to hear more about the "barrel liner" because all Kahr barrels are hammer forged, final machined, then nickel plated for lubricity.
Can you share any info in regards "that pesky slide stop spring?" I have an older PM9 that recently started to lock back on several different magazines with varied amount of rounds still in them. Never happened in the years that I have owned it, even with longish 147gr 9mm RA9T ammo.
My first thought was that my thumb inadvertently pushed up the slide stop during recoil. I focused to insure my thumb did not activate the slide stop when shooting. But it continued. What was strange is that it did not happen all the time, and when it did, it was not a solid slide lock back. During recoil, the slide seemed to barely catch the slide stop, stop momentarily at the slide stop notch, and then slingshot forward into battery. I own another older PM9 and shot many rounds through both for years, and have experience in the proper hold on the small grip.
My second thought, maybe the cartridge bullet noses, moving upwards in the mag during firing, were activating the slide stop tab inside the frame.
My third guess was "that pesky slide stop spring" weakened to the point it didn't bias the slide stop downwards allowing it to loosely move up, slightly locking back the slide during firing.
I had a extra slide stop and it seemed to have fixed the issue for now. But at the time, something was definitely funky in the area of the slide stop.
Furthermore, I discovered one out of my six magazines had a broken follower (front anti-tilt leg). But this weird slide stop thing happened with all the mags and to only one of my two PM9's.
Regarding all Kahr barrels are nickel plated for lubricity, is this really true? I thought they were stainless steel, bead-blasted for a dull finish.
Some longer rounds may hit the slide stop. PM9s seem most prone with heavy hollow points due to the shallow ogive. Thats an easy fix if its happening. Trim the slide stops inner surface a little.
The slide stop spring on PMs is a double looped twisted affair. One end runs to keep the slide stop down except when the follower pushes it up. The other end serves to fit in a notch that retains the slide stop.
Yes barrels are nickle plated on all stainless or black stainless Kahrs. So are the pins of the slide stop on P series, but not C series. The nickle is there to help prevent galling.
Unlike ARs....Kahr polymer pistols prefer fairly dry running.
Some longer rounds may hit the slide stop. PM9s seem most prone with heavy hollow points due to the shallow ogive. Thats an easy fix if its happening. Trim the slide stops inner surface a little.
The slide stop spring on PMs is a double looped twisted affair. One end runs to keep the slide stop down except when the follower pushes it up. The other end serves to fit in a notch that retains the slide stop.
Yes barrels are nickle plated on all stainless or black stainless Kahrs. So are the pins of the slide stop on P series, but not C series. The nickle is there to help prevent galling.
Unlike ARs....Kahr polymer pistols prefer fairly dry running.
Now you have my full attention, like a sinner to a minister on a Sunday. You definitely sound like a Kahr SME to me.
To give more details: Both of my older PM9's (VA & VB-series) are original, factory, black DLC-coated, stainless steel-marked, "updated" slides.
Only three types of ammo have ever been fired through them: American Eagle 115gr FMJ / Gold Dot 124gr+P / RA9T 147gr - Total through each...IDK, no more than 1000 each gun.
Usual PM9-type story/complaints/annoyances: A couple of fail to feeds early on (break in?); Need to load 1st round via slide stop (opposed to slingshot); spare mag without mag
pouch auto-unloads rounds in my pocket...................typical PM9 behavior.
Un-usual complaints/annoyances: Every few hundred rounds, pin holding plastic panel on the right-side of gun near the rear of the slide will slightly walk out. Lightly tapped back in.
One (1) broken early, non-metal-reinforced mag release (Kahr sent me updated metal-reinforced part), One (1) broken mag follower
Other than the above, I have fired hundreds of "long" RA9T's with no problems before the slide stop lock-back phenomenon suddenly started. It is my preferred carry load due to extremely mild recoil.
If the phenomenon continues with the replaced slide stop, I will try to file down the interior tab. After that, it will go back to Kahr for inspection.
- Slide stop spring - what weakness do you foresee causing it to be the system's weak link. Early failure? Snapping? Losing spring tension?
- Nickeled barrel - is it nickeled inside the bore as well or just the exterior? Nickeled barrels on the early all stainless steel-framed K9's too?
- The pins on the slide stops are black as is the slide stop itself. You're saying the pins are nickeled?
- I understood all Kahr pistols NEEDED to be kept "wet" for optimum, reliable performance. Is this incorrect all this time?
You seem very knowledgeable on the Kahr family, particularly the polymers, and I appreciate it. Can you share where you're getting the info?
My bad, the DLC pins are DLC, not nickel. The barrels however, are nickel plated. You can polish them out to shine like chrome, much easier than a stainless barrel would polish out. In fact... just about use hand rubbing with some polishing compound and rag.
On the PM series, the slide stop is two pieces. The pin is ground, very tough, and held into the MIM lever with a small blind crosspin. The pin will usually swivel in the lever. On the CM's the entire assembly is MIM and will not swivel. The "stainless" colored pins are nickel plated prior to assembly to keep them silvery colored and for lubricity.
Back to the barrels, its not uncommon for the ramps to show some deformation of the plating after a bit of use, say... anyplace from 500 to 1000 rounds (best guestimate). Wear of the plating on the ramp does not impede performance.
Most users on the internet form "all about Kahr" tend to agree that the polymer pistols run best fairly dry, especially the FCG and striker/striker channel, which tends to crud up easily with firing.
The slide stop spring, on the polymers has a retainer disk, and a retainer scew. These can loosen, and/or the spring can be deformed by over tightening the screw (or the screw hole can be deformed too). Incorrect re-assembly can bugger the spring. Its a part that works, works well, but.... if there's gonna be an issue, thats it. The slide stops can walk. The slide stop can become enganged prematurely. The slide stop can not become engaged.... you got the picture. Correct assembly counts.
The sideplate pin was replaced with a tiny torx screw, and as far as I know, the pin can be pulled and the screw put in place, perhaps with a little countersink in the sideplate added by the user (or the factory can do the same). My oldest is pinned PM9, no issues. My two PM45's are both screwed into place.
What's an SME? I'm not a huge fanboy of Kahr, they do have stupid issues. Its not a design problem, but assembly. The trigger bars, the barrel noses. Take note - check your barrel fit, pressing it fully rearward with no slide mounted, just a slide stop pin. Insert the magazine (empty). If the follower rubs on the slide, you need a ramp nose trim. The fit is tight and some of those poly frames are just a few .001's different. They function ok, but the stacked tolerances cause a follower smack, and eventually breakage.
On the break in - something to consider - a pistol like a 1911 has a huge amount of slide over-run of the rear of the magazine (and cartridge rim). In a Kahr, there is just a miniscule amount. That small amount of distance makes for critical timing, which they pull off to an extraordinary amount of satisfaction. But like a thorobred sports car, they need to be "right" to run the way they ought to. The recoil spring is short, and must be flexed to become the spring it ought to be. It cannot (easily) be made the spring it ought to be, and thus is made too tight, with the intent of loosening upon use until a state of near equilibrium is had.
Gotta say all three of mine run 100 percent with good ammo, less than 100 percent with range loads and such.
If you (or anyone ) wants the run down on Kahr, go to that internet forum and find the answewrs (and meet some great folks too). I wont mention the forum name here, might be against the rules, dunno.
Last thing, the mag release is all metal, and has been for a while My older PM has a plastic one, no issues - yet. Newer PM45's are metal, similarly no issues.
My PM9094NA has "Born on Date" of 04/24/2006, S# VC2***. What issues should I be aware off? I only have right at 500 rounds through it.
Unload it. Rack the slide to cock it. Put empty magazine into pistol. Put in freezer over night. Take it out, pull the trigger. If the trigger goes all the way back, and fails to release the striker, contact Ian and Kahr.
Unload it. Remove slide, barrel and recoil spring. Place barrel in frame and secure with slide stop. Press barrel rearward by finger pressure. Insert magazine while holding barrel rearward. If the follower touches the feed ramp, you may have follower's breaking.
Usuallly, they only need a very very small amount removed to clear the follower. Some folks do it themselves, others send it off. If doing it yourself, just follow the original contour and make a vertical pass with your sanding drum on your Dremel. A little Cratex wheel to smooth it out, and you got it done. Clean off abrasive dust before re-assembling, or doing a trial fit.
The low temp failure to fire, is best handled by the factory. PITA that it is, I have never heard one person yet complain that a trip to the factory resulted in anything less than a trigger pull smooth as the inside of your girlfriends thigh. I've seen 'em go back twice for goofy stuff (mostly improper hold open's due to that slide stop spring) but the trigger bars get reworked and everything smoothed whenever you do a sendback for FCG issues.
warpedcamshaft
02-10-14, 21:50
Thanks cjb... lots of great info.
Thank you sir. It passed the mag test, now for the freezer.
Well it passed the mag test and then spent last night in the freezer with Brian Enos's Slide-Glide "Lite" on it. Pulled it out today and it went bang (figuratively speaking) every time. Racked the slide several times and each time the pistol performed perfectly, so I guess I am GTG. Thanks for all the help and advice.
John
warpedcamshaft
02-12-14, 21:54
Since getting my wife's gun back, I left it in a bag of snow at about 18 degrees... Then hit the range and fired about 150 rounds with no issues.
- I understood all Kahr pistols NEEDED to be kept "wet" for optimum, reliable performance. Is this incorrect all this time?
This has not been my experience. I have a K9. I bought it used and have put about 500rds thru it with no lube and no cleaning. I think I disassembled it and lubed it when I first got it but that is about it.
It goes bang every time I ask it to, it eats everything, tolerates neglect and is unbelievably accurate. I can single handed, rapid fire all rounds in the X ring at 7 yards. For a defensive pistol I cannot ask it to do much else.
BravoSierra2
04-30-14, 09:36
... During a trip to the range, the CM9 was allowed to reach a thermodynamic equilibrium with about 10 degree air. When I arrived at the range and pulled the pistol from it's case... the pistol would not fire!!! I tested this multiple times by leaving the firearm in the cold and found that I could not trip the sear and make the striker fall.
It turns out that the tolerances of the trigger and the polymer frame would not allow the sear to trip in cold temperatures. I then sent the unit off for repair. All is good now, but... just remember to test your equipment in every temperature you may encounter if you live in the cold states.
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I came across the same problem with a CW9. Sent back to Kahr once already, but they did not fix the problem. Question for the OP: was Kahr able to fix the issue, or did they replace the firearm? I'm wondering if this is something a competent gunsmith could correct locally. Thanks
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I came across the same problem with a CW9. Sent back to Kahr once already, but they did not fix the problem. Question for the OP: was Kahr able to fix the issue, or did they replace the firearm? I'm wondering if this is something a competent gunsmith could correct locally. Thanks
I bought a Ruger P95 last month because it was really low priced after 50 rounds ejection became erratic and failures to eject so I called Ruger and they emailed me a shipping label and instructions. Great service and it came back in a week with the extractor replaced . after 50 rounds it still ejected erratic and failures to eject so I called Ruger and they emailed a shipping label and the ruger tech called and said they put another slide on it . I have shot about 400 faultless rounds so far and the pistol works and for a cheap pistol works great and is surprisingly accurate. Maybe you have to call Kahr again.
I had issues with my PM9 in the very very cold. It was lubed (probably heavily) with frog lube paste. I switched to a light coat of a CLP type lube and the problem went away.
The gun sat out in the middle of the winter at night at the range to make this happen. I am confident that it I had been carrying it it would have been warm enough for this not to happen. Also after a few rounds it would warm up enough to run consistently.
warpedcamshaft
05-01-14, 15:05
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I came across the same problem with a CW9. Sent back to Kahr once already, but they did not fix the problem. Question for the OP: was Kahr able to fix the issue, or did they replace the firearm? I'm wondering if this is something a competent gunsmith could correct locally. Thanks
Kahr was able to fix the issue the on the first trip back. Same firearm, not replaced. I could easily identify the area where the trigger bar was pressing against the frame, it seemed like it would be a simple fix to me... Just remove a bit of polymer from that area of the frame.
BravoSierra2
05-01-14, 19:15
Makes sense, thanks for the additional info. I will keep the lubricant in mind as well. No issues with my older PM9 btw
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