These are the people libs want to run away from in Iraq?

[Gutshot John]

I'm still shaking I'm so angry.

I saw a news report on CNN about life in Basra after it was wrested from Mehdi militia control last month.

One captured militia person confessed to the rape and killing of 15 girls, the youngest of which was 9, most of them were GIRLS who "dared" go to school. Maybe we should drop copies of "I Spit on Your Grave" to Iraqi women.

Do we really want to run away from these people? I don't give a rip about democracy in Iraq, but there is no honor in running from cowards.

[variablebinary]

I'm still shaking I'm so angry.

I saw a news report on CNN about life in Basra after it was wrested from Mehdi militia control last month.

One captured militia person confessed to the rape and killing of 15 girls, the youngest of which was 9, most of them were GIRLS who "dared" go to school. Maybe we should drop copies of "I Spit on Your Grave" to Iraqi women.

Do we really want to run away from these people? I don't give a rip about democracy in Iraq, but there is no honor in running from cowards.

These so-called insurgents tend to be some of the lowest creatures to walk the earth.

[Safetyhit]

Do we really want to run away from these people? I don't give a rip about democracy in Iraq, but there is no honor in running from cowards.



With all due respect, I don't believe anyone feels as though we need to "run away" from them. Some do feel, however, that the overall mission is doomed not to succeed as intended due to Iraqi corruption, ongoing insurgency, negative internal influences (Al-Sadr, AQ, anti-west sentiment), negative external influences (Iran, Syria) and the endless Sunni - Shiite - Kurd bullshit.


I would say that the most reasonable two scenarios are to "Balkanize" the country into three districts or just let the bastards kill each other off in mass and see where things go from there. We can protect our bases there and our personnel, just no longer a government (and large segment of the population) that won't help themselves. Then instead of 150,000 troops there full time we would need about 30,000 or so.

As far as AQ in Iraq, we continue to hit them anytime and anywhere we please. If Iran gets too entangled, we hit them, too. Otherwise, we stand down and, for the most part, let them have most of their God forsaken country back. They will not destabilize the region if we keep a close eye on things and only act when such a destabilization appears likely. Either way, we are not running anywhere as we are still a presence not to be messed with in the region.

Yes, I am sure that someone will tell me why the latter suggestion won't work or isn't practical. But, what really will work or is practical there anymore? More of the same? Maybe that will pan out one day, but when and how? And at what cost to our families and our financially ailing country?

Maybe it would be better to let them become as weak and broken as Afghanistan was before we try to intervene and establish a Democracy. More infrastructure work sure, but also likely less organized resistance both militarily and internally. Plus, then in the end we can say we hung in there, so to speak.

[Gutshot John]

With all due respect, I don't believe anyone feels as though we need to "run away" from them. Some do feel, however, that the overall mission is doomed not to succeed as intended due to Iraqi corruption, ongoing insurgency, negative internal influences (Al-Sadr, AQ, anti-west sentiment), negative external influences (Iran, Syria) and the endless Sunni - Shiite - Kurd bullshit.


The Sunni, Shi'a conflict is a bit overblown. They are perfectly willing to work together when they have common purposes. For instance Shi'a Hezbollah wants to liberate the Sunni West Bank/Gaza. I even think the 9/11 commission believes that Iran aided AQ pull off 9/11. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is as potent in the ME as anywhere else.

"Balkanization" is not really relevant to Iraq for a host of reasons, but if it works out that way, I can live with that. People talk about it like a doomsday scenario, but having been to Croatia in 1994 and then again two years ago, it's a world of difference. I'd happily go to the Balkans on vacation, but again I don't think it's really relevant.

Respectfully..you don't think that the left wants (I never said "needs") to run away from Iraq? I understand that you don't like the war, for that matter I don't either, but there is nothing to be gained by just abandoning innocent civilians to their fate. Really I thought we were better than that.

Again I don't care what the politics are, but how do you retreat in the face of such evil that it would rape and murder a 9 yo girl for committing the unpardonable sin of going to school? How do you negotiate with it? I don't believe that all muslims are evil or even subscribe to this viewpoint, but surely those that do (not just muslim) need to be found, cornered and ruthlessly exterminated.

It should be noted that this militia was directly funded by Iran. The same people with whom Obama would like to sit down and have a nice chat.

As for sitting back and watch Iraq turn into Afghanistan before doing anything is, from a historic perspective, a REALLY bad idea. How do you think Afghanistan got to be that way?

[BAC]

Would US military presence eliminate this occurrence? Would it reduce it? Will it come back if we ever leave?

It's a disgusting act, but no different than the same act occuring all over the world, including in the US. I'd be very cautious about using emotion to dictate military involvement with a country, or we'd be in a lot more of the world than we are now.


-B

[Gutshot John]

It's a disgusting act, but no different than the same act occuring all over the world, including in the US. -B

And what do we do with people like that in the US? Even still here it's a sick individual...for the Mehdi militia it's a tactic for terrorizing the population into compliance.

What I'm saying is that these Iranian funded militias need to be destroyed if for no other reason than to prevent the institutionalization of such practices.

[BAC]

And what do we do with people like that in the US? Even still here it's a sick individual...for the Mehdi militia it's a tactic for terrorizing the population into compliance.

What I'm saying is that these Iranian funded militias need to be destroyed if for no other reason than to prevent the institutionalization of such practices.

I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that's a tall order even for our military. Funded officially or unofficially, we're talking about groups of people, many of them locals, who already have a hostile or negative disposition toward our involvement there. Destroying these and keeping the remaining population happy might be mutually exclusive.

As for the media coverage, I'm of the mind that the best way to counter media is with media. Run a counter-propaganda campaign; you can't tell me we don't have the technology to do it, and to do it effectively.


-B

[Safetyhit]

The Sunni, Shi'a conflict is a bit overblown. They are perfectly willing to work together when they have common purposes. For instance Shi'a Hezbollah wants to liberate the Sunni West Bank/Gaza. I even think the 9/11 commission believes that Iran aided AQ pull off 9/11. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is as potent in the ME as anywhere else.

Maybe, but I see absolutely no evidence of this potential cooperation in Iraq, do you? Even just a staged display of cooperation to get us to leave? And what were they working on together there before the U.S. invaded? The only reason they were not at each other then was because of Saddam's iron fist rule.



"Balkanization" is not really relevant to Iraq for a host of reasons, but if it works out that way, I can live with that. People talk about it like a doomsday scenario, but having been to Croatia in 1994 and then again two years ago, it's a world of difference. I'd happily go to the Balkans on vacation, but again I don't think it's really relevant.

OK, but not sure I understand your reasoning as to why it is irrelevant. Divide them (so they don't fight like little, undisciplined children) and let them rule themselves respectively.



Respectfully..you don't think that the left wants (I never said "needs") to run away from Iraq? I understand that you don't like the war, for that matter I don't either, but there is nothing to be gained by just abandoning innocent civilians to their fate. Really I thought we were better than that.

My mistake regarding your exact wording, sorry. And we are better than that, but how much can we take on and for how long? They say we broke it so now we own it, but the reality was it was already broken. Broken via mass murders, corruption and an evil dictator. We tried to get the UN to help, but they did nothing as usual but set more mandates. So, eventually we followed through when others wouldn't. And, why are all these wonderful Iraqi's not rioting in the streets or voicing their tremendous displeasure with the terrorist bombings that often kill their own women and children? Where is the massive needed display by the common people saying we denounce homicide bombings anywhere in any form in the name of islam? Whether from AQ or the Sunni vs Shiite conflicts? I know there are good people there, and I swear I feel for them, but the mindset of the masses must change before anything good can happen.



Again I don't care what the politics are, but how do you retreat in the face of such evil that it would rape and murder a 9 yo girl for committing the unpardonable sin of going to school? How do you negotiate with it? I don't believe that all muslims are evil or even subscribe to this viewpoint, but surely those that do (not just muslim) need to be found, cornered and ruthlessly exterminated.

While I agree with you 100%, this is not the real issue, as these things happen in places where bad people live and especially where they are allowed to flourish. The U.S. can't end those types of horrible incidents alone, but a change in the overall public mindset can.



As for sitting back and watch Iraq turn into Afghanistan before doing anything is, from a historic perspective, a REALLY bad idea. How do you think Afghanistan got to be that way?

I look at it this way, the weakened state of Afghanistan is what allows there to be only a fraction of the forces needed to maintain order than are needed in Iraq. Sure, it was a mess with little infrastructure, but sometimes maybe it is better to rebuild from the bottom up. I don't know, just speculating, but someone better come up with something to end this apparent stalemate.

[KintlaLake]

...there is no honor in running from cowards.

There's no national honor in propping up cowards, either.

I give all due honor to our warriors, but as a nation we're being flanked. Time to wise up.

[Gutshot John]

There's no national honor in propping up cowards, either.

I give all due honor to our warriors, but as a nation we're being flanked. Time to wise up.

I agree, but I'm not sure where that means we abandon the innocent to their fate in a war we started.

I'm not talking about being the world's policeman. I'm talking about taking responsibility for our choices and dealing with the consequences of our actions.

[Striker5]

One of the dangers of "exporting democracy" is that when the common man gets a vote in places like Iraq, it won't be for affirmative action. This is why we always gravitate toward the "corrupt degenerate puppet" model of government in this region (and others). That's when we sacrifice long term legitimacy for a short term feeling of being in control.

This sort of crime is like necklacing in South Africa - the local community is complicit when these crimes are committed and no one steps up. Easier said than done - but still true.

I think the right direction is to keep up slow steady pressure on the mahdi army, plaster this incident all over the place, and push them out of the Shia top slot. Whatever tactical issues they had, the plan to go after the mahdi army cough cough, I mean criminal gangs was a smart move. Push too hard and assassinate al Sadr, you alienate his disaffected, pissy Shia followers.

President/Prime Minister Striker would covertly groom some neutered radical cleric, then fabricate some phony footage of Sadr getting romantic with a goat, or having a beer with Ehud Olmert etc. Then disseminate, discredit and have my lap dog/cleric step into the power vacuum. Genius - pure genius. :D

[BAC]

I agree, but I'm not sure where that means we abandon the innocent to their fate in a war we started.

I'm not talking about being the world's policeman. I'm talking about taking responsibility for our choices and dealing with the consequences of our actions.

I don't understand this, though. We didn't start anything that caused women to be raped if they tried to go to schools; that's been in place long before our involvement in the Middle East. That's kind of the point I was trying to make. It sucks, it really does, but it's happened before we were there, it's happened while we were there, and there's no reason to think it won't in the future either.


-B

[KintlaLake]

I agree, but I'm not sure where that means we abandon the innocent to their fate in a war we started.

Like politicians and bureaucrats, I think we're all prone to paint this situation (and others) by its extremes -- it's either "stay the course" or "surrender," or some similar characterization.

With respect, I suggest intelligent redeployment. Others will differ, I'm sure, but there's a war on, dammit, and, in my opinion, we're not fully engaged in it.


I'm not talking about being the world's policeman. I'm talking about taking responsibility for our choices and dealing with the consequences of our actions.

I think that's called the "Pottery Barn Strategy."

There's a form of honor in cleaning up a mess we made, but that makes us more of a janitor than a cop. And while we're mopping up in the cafeteria...

Our forces are finite. Our time is short.

[Gutshot John]

I don't understand this, though. We didn't start anything that caused women to be raped if they tried to go to schools; that's been in place long before our involvement in the Middle East. That's kind of the point I was trying to make. It sucks, it really does, but it's happened before we were there, it's happened while we were there, and there's no reason to think it won't in the future either.-B

There is a difference between rape that exists in theirs and every society...and those that use rape as a political weapon of intimidation.

If you see no distinction than oh well.

I'm not sure I can make a "rational" argument in this case. I fully admit this is too emotional for me.

I'm all for "intelligent" redeployment so long as it's not perceived as a loss otherwise it's just "declaring victory and running away." If we don't stand up to thugs like this, than it will be perceived as a loss.

[KintlaLake]

If we don't stand up to thugs like this, than it will be perceived as a loss.

You're right, 'John -- it is emotional for you. ;)

[Gutshot John]

You're right, 'John -- it is emotional for you. ;)

Indeed...but the consequences of such a perceived loss are of a far more "rational" concern.

[BAC]

I'm not sure I can make a "rational" argument in this case. I fully admit this is too emotional for me.

Me too. That's why I have to look at it from a logical perspective, or else it'd be hard to get past the evil things I'd do or suggest doing to those caught committing such a crime.

I see the distinction, but again, it's something that's always been there and will likely remain there. Safetyhit was right: this isn't going to change because we make it change, it's going to change when they make it change. Isn't that part of the whole strategy we're employing over there? Empowering them so they can take back the reigns for their own countries?

I, personally, feel that this is a hell of an opportunity to run a strong counter-propaganda campaign. Use this as another catalyst for winning the hearts and minds of the locals and having them take care of business. Make the best of a shitty situation, right?


-B

[Gutshot John]

Me too. That's why I have to look at it from a logical perspective, or else it'd be hard to get past the evil things I'd do or suggest doing to those caught committing such a crime.

Yeah I just can't flip that switch. If I found someone doing that to a child. I know exactly what I would do and I would deserve AND happily spend the rest of my life in jail for doing it.

But when it's a politico-religious ideology...I'm flummoxed with rage.


I, personally, feel that this is a hell of an opportunity to run a strong counter-propaganda campaign. Use this as another catalyst for winning the hearts and minds of the locals and having them take care of business. Make the best of a shitty situation, right?
-B

Agreed.

[Safetyhit]

I'm not sure I can make a "rational" argument in this case. I fully admit this is too emotional for me.


That's OK. Because at least you care, for more than the minute it takes to watch the story, about those atrocities committed against those and other children.

Many don't. Not enough, anyway.