View Full Version : Ukraine at the precipice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85WBb9xA9AI#t=31
Just watched the Fox News report about it. Looks like they're coming unglued over there.
Those protesting are anti-Moscow and pro-West, correct?
RogerinTPA
02-18-14, 18:23
Just watched the Fox News report about it. Looks like they're coming unglued over there.
Those protesting are anti-Moscow and pro-West, correct?
Correct. I can understand the Ukrainians extreme hesitence with going with Russia, but with the economic collapse of of the EU on the horizon, unemployment through the roof & housing collapse, it may be a smarter choice for economic survival to go with Russia, and several other countries that are trying to form their own banking conglomerate based on a gold backed currency (Most possibly the Wan), with the goal of using it as the new petro currency and totally divesting from the USD.
VooDoo6Actual
02-18-14, 18:40
Dark Ages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie0rj0l85Q4&feature=youtu.be
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0b_1392755368
Correct. I can understand the Ukrainians extreme hesitence with going with Russia, but with the economic collapse of of the EU on the horizon, unemployment through the roof & housing collapse, it may be a smarter choice for economic survival to go with Russia, and several other countries that are trying to form their own banking conglomerate based on a gold backed currency (Most possibly the Wan), with the goal of using it as the new petro currency and totally divesting from the USD.
If I was them I'd choose BRICS over Bretton-Woods.
decodeddiesel
02-18-14, 19:21
My wife is Ukrainian, and I've been to the very place in Kiev where the protests are happening numerous times. It's a sad day for Ukraine, and every Ukrainian I know in the USA is having a hard time dealing with their normal day to day lives knowing what is happening over there. Yanukovych is a criminal and a puppet of Czar Putin. The people of Ukraine deserve better.
VooDoo6Actual
02-18-14, 19:34
My wife is Ukrainian, and I've been to the very place in Kiev where the protests are happening numerous times. It's a sad day for Ukraine, and every Ukrainian I know in the USA is having a hard time dealing with their normal day to day lives knowing what is happening over there. Yanukovych is a criminal and a puppet of Czar Putin. The people of Ukraine deserve better.
The Irony.....
that's like saying: Holder is a criminal & a puppet for Czar Obama. The people of America deserve better.
decodeddiesel
02-18-14, 19:38
The Irony.....
that's like saying: Holder is a criminal & a puppet for Czar Obama. The people of America deserve better.
:confused: I guess I'm not following what you are trying to say.
VooDoo6Actual
02-18-14, 20:09
:confused: I guess I'm not following what you are trying to say.
Nevermind & no sweat, not worth it if you don't get it.
I was born in Kiev and though I have no ties left there, and have not been back since Dec 3rd 1990 I still feel sad for the state of affairs. Ukrainians hate Russians since they lost their independence to them last century and the feelings have only gotten stronger since their independence was regained. There is even a derogatory term for Russians in the Ukranian language lol. Having a president who is essentially siding with the enemy after years of western leaning leaders only pours salt in the wounds.
My father and I were just discussing it, I wanted to snow Kiev to my wife, it's one of the oldest cities in Europe, but its not going to happen any time soon.
Shche ne vmerla Ukraina
I was born in Kiev.....
Commie
No wonder you live in NJ! (Mea culpa, I'm on a douchebag roll!)
;)
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2014/02/bloody-battles-in-kiev/100684/
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k09_70136181.jpg
thopkins22
02-19-14, 14:03
I wonder how many of the police and military are standing with the people vs. standing in the line of fiery cocktails protecting their corrupt bosses and politicians.
I wonder how many of the police and military are standing with the people vs. standing in the line of fiery cocktails protecting their corrupt bosses and politicians.
I don't think it is so much an issue of corruption.
http://takimag.com/article/pity_the_poor_ukrainians_scott_locklin#axzz2tnkavVEw
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/01/eric-margolis/partition-ukraine/
Commie
No wonder you live in NJ! (Mea culpa, I'm on a douchebag roll!)
;)
Location in the US was not my choice :(
I wonder how many of the police and military are standing with the people vs. standing in the line of fiery cocktails protecting their corrupt bosses and politicians.
I look at those pictures and wonder what makes them keep fighting for the government?, do they really believe in the governments actions? I am surprised they are not deserting and joining the protesters.
I don't think joining the EU is the greatest choice, but I certainly think its much better than getting in bed with Putin.
I am really curious if this will become a shooting war. The protesters are obviously not above singling out and beating a uniformed police officer with the real consequence of death. What will it take for the first hidden AK to come out and unloading magazines into the battle line.
ETA: nvm, saw the second LL link.
deadlyfire
02-19-14, 15:33
I think at this point, with casualties mounting well past 1,000 the point of no return for the opposition has come and gone.
Either they press towards a regime change or they face ruination. The current heads of Ukraine have already shown their fully capable of reprisals and targeted killings/tortures. Euromaidan's capitulation now, could easily mean we find a mass grave 10 years later filled with the most notable participants.
Grand58742
02-19-14, 15:38
I think the frightening thing is the fact the military chief was suddenly replaced last night and then the military announced it could take part in restoring order.
Whenever a military chief is fired, the reasons are typically bad. And mixing the military into suppressing civil demonstrations is basically a recipe for civil war.
RogerinTPA
02-19-14, 18:27
The country is split ideologically. One half sides with russia, the other, sides with the EU. One half is doing all the rioting, the other, not so much.
I think the frightening thing is the fact the military chief was suddenly replaced last night and then the military announced it could take part in restoring order.
Whenever a military chief is fired, the reasons are typically bad. And mixing the military into suppressing civil demonstrations is basically a recipe for civil war.
I see a repeat of 1956 Hungary. Tanks will roll, people will disappear and the government will do as it desires.
davidjinks
02-19-14, 19:42
What I find hilarious...
Obama said if anything bad happens...there will be consequences.
I think the whole situation is a "Damned if you do damned if you don't" type deal.
Let's face it, the EU is the last place I'd want to go to for sanctuary. Of course Russia is t much better.
Another US-UK "Color Revolution".
The bastards are getting paid to protest.
Yanukovich has issues but nothing like the "Heartland Theory"-loving West.
Deconstructing Russia, eh, Brzezinski?
It will soon get hot if this crap continues; like one million degrees hot.
And Americans lap up the misdirection like candy...
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
VooDoo6Actual
02-19-14, 21:14
Another US-UK "Color Revolution".
The bastards are getting paid to protest.
Yanukovich has issues but nothing like the "Heartland Theory"-loving West.
Deconstructing Russia, eh, Brzezinski?
It will soon get hot if this crap continues; like one million degrees hot.
And Americans lap up the misdirection like candy...
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I know, most don't have a clue. I gave up trying to help & educate it was completely a waste & futile. I have not seen one post to date here that says: Hmmm, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, MB, Radicals, Islamofascism, EU, IMF, NATO, Global Warming, Polar Vortex, EMP's, CME's & a completely divided USA (culturally, economically, racially, religious, transhumanism, LBGT, DEM vs. GOP, militarily, propaganda & Media of Mass Distraction etc.
Of course we did elude to the "Hegelian Dialectic" how many years ago ?
The Band played on....NBC
SomeOtherGuy
02-19-14, 21:21
The country is split ideologically. One half sides with russia, the other, sides with the EU. One half is doing all the rioting, the other, not so much.
Been reading the same, with the addition that one half is basically ethnic Russian and speaks Russian, thanks to serious Russian settlement efforts during Stalin's reign, while the other half is largely ethnic Ukrainian and (surprise!) speaks Ukrainian. Basically it's two nations, ethnically and linguistically, that have an artificial set of borders based on history. Just like much of the middle east. Best thing would be for it to divide peacefully.
Care to break it down for me?
I know, most don't have a clue. I gave up trying to help & educate it was completely a waste & futile. I have not seen one post to date here that says: Hmmm, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, MB, Radicals, Islamofascism, EU, IMF, NATO, Global Warming, Polar Vortex, EMP's, CME's & a completely divided USA (culturally, economically, racially, religious, transhumanism, LBGT, DEM vs. GOP, militarily, propaganda & Media of Mass Distraction etc.
Of course we did elude to the "Hegelian Dialectic" how many years ago ?
The Band played on....NBC
Another US-UK "Color Revolution".
The bastards are getting paid to protest.
Yanukovich has issues but nothing like the "Heartland Theory"-loving West.
Deconstructing Russia, eh, Brzezinski?
It will soon get hot if this crap continues; like one million degrees hot.
And Americans lap up the misdirection like candy...
Mauser KAR98K
02-19-14, 23:56
Been reading the same, with the addition that one half is basically ethnic Russian and speaks Russian, thanks to serious Russian settlement efforts during Stalin's reign, while the other half is largely ethnic Ukrainian and (surprise!) speaks Ukrainian. Basically it's two nations, ethnically and linguistically, that have an artificial set of borders based on history. Just like much of the middle east. Best thing would be for it to divide peacefully.
I feel it might turn into a Yugoslavia affair. Bloody.
I feel it might turn into a Yugoslavia affair. Bloody.
Speaking of Yugoslavia....
http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/d9/4e5821b4dab12fb07eabf7fa53d94/_h353_w628_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg
http://news.uk.msn.com/comment-and-analysis/bosnian-unrest-a-united-economic-uprising
Mauser KAR98K
02-20-14, 01:59
Speaking of Yugoslavia....
http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/d9/4e5821b4dab12fb07eabf7fa53d94/_h353_w628_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg
http://news.uk.msn.com/comment-and-analysis/bosnian-unrest-a-united-economic-uprising
Oh, brother. Not again.
You know. You could just try the old "front door approach" and just spell it out.
I know, most don't have a clue. I gave up trying to help & educate it was completely a waste & futile. I have not seen one post to date here that says: Hmmm, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, MB, Radicals, Islamofascism, EU, IMF, NATO, Global Warming, Polar Vortex, EMP's, CME's & a completely divided USA (culturally, economically, racially, religious, transhumanism, LBGT, DEM vs. GOP, militarily, propaganda & Media of Mass Distraction etc.
Of course we did elude to the "Hegelian Dialectic" how many years ago ?
The Band played on....NBC
The truce didn't even last a day.
"Truce crumbles amid gunfire in Ukraine, at least 20 dead"
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/europe/ukraine-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
SomeOtherGuy
02-20-14, 08:31
Ah, Bosnia. Nice quote:
“The people of Bosnia have finally understood who their true enemy is: not other ethnic groups, but their own leaders who pretend to protect them,” Slavoj Žižek writes in The Guardian.
This may be the european round of the "arab spring" stuff we saw a few years ago, driven by a mix of food shortages, general economic decline, and more attention to government corruption and injustice by people who are hungry and have lots of free time. Nothing got solved in the mideast and chances are nothing will get solved in these countries either.
Mini-documentary on the Ukraine from Vice. A little under 30 minutes.
http://youtu.be/7eTuFAR169s
ForTehNguyen
02-20-14, 18:39
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5304ee2b6da811f066946b73-1200-/screen%20shot%202014-02-19%20at%2012.44.43%20pm.png
Been reading the same, with the addition that one half is basically ethnic Russian and speaks Russian, thanks to serious Russian settlement efforts during Stalin's reign, while the other half is largely ethnic Ukrainian and (surprise!) speaks Ukrainian. Basically it's two nations, ethnically and linguistically, that have an artificial set of borders based on history. Just like much of the middle east. Best thing would be for it to divide peacefully.
The Ukraine is really three countries, land that was once Poland, the major cities and the rural villages. The far west portion was actually Poland prior to Stalin and Hitler calling dibs, those people are catholic and were always ostracized and persecuted under the Soviet government. The rest is Eastern Orthodox and an odd mix; the major cities speak Russian and the rural areas speak Ukranian. The languages are actually fairly different. My great-grandmother lived in a small village about 90 min (by train) from Kiev and she spoke Ukranian and Yiddish, never really spoke Russian. Oh and I mean village, when she passed away in 1989 she had a old school well (rope, bucket and hand crank), outhouse and was essentially a subsistence farmer. She did make some awesome moonshine according to my dad.
During the Soviet era schools in the Ukraine did not begin teaching Ukranian until the second grade. I left a month into second grade and therefor even learned Ukranian. Listening to the news I understand only one of every five words.
As said before, the majority of Ukranians despise Russians.
Damn moskali. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal ]
Mauser KAR98K
02-21-14, 00:00
The Ukraine is really three countries, land that was once Poland, the major cities and the rural villages. The far west portion was actually Poland prior to Stalin and Hitler calling dibs, those people are catholic and were always ostracized and persecuted under the Soviet government. The rest is Eastern Orthodox and an odd mix; the major cities speak Russian and the rural areas speak Ukranian. The languages are actually fairly different. My great-grandmother lived in a small village about 90 min (by train) from Kiev and she spoke Ukranian and Yiddish, never really spoke Russian. Oh and I mean village, when she passed away in 1989 she had a old school well (rope, bucket and hand crank), outhouse and was essentially a subsistence farmer. She did make some awesome moonshine according to my dad.
During the Soviet era schools in the Ukraine did not begin teaching Ukranian until the second grade. I left a month into second grade and therefor even learned Ukranian. Listening to the news I understand only one of every five words.
As said before, the majority of Ukranians despise Russians.
Damn moskali. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskal ]
So knowing more of the culture than us native Americans, is what is going on good for the Ukraine, with the eye of going more align to the West and away from Putin, or bad thing in giving Putin more room to get a stronger hold of the Ukraine? It has seem that Poland and the Ukraine were always the turf for the turf war of East and West.
http://youtu.be/Hvds2AIiWLA
Ukrainian Police is using lethal force on the people now and there's now talk about the Ukrainian Military getting deployed to crush the protesters via 1989 PLA Tiananmen Square style.
http://youtu.be/T6IbEIBhb8o
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg6PN0CCEAACRk3.jpg
So knowing more of the culture than us native Americans, is what is going on good for the Ukraine, with the eye of going more align to the West and away from Putin, or bad thing in giving Putin more room to get a stronger hold of the Ukraine? It has seem that Poland and the Ukraine were always the turf for the turf war of East and West.
I think what Putin wants is reunification and the majority of Ukranians don't. One of the problems is that Ukraine does not have a lot of natural resources, very fertile soil, but no oil or gas... Some coal but not a lot. The culture in rural Ukraine was always an agrarian one, it was the "bread basket" of the Soviet Union. Now Russia has a ton of oil and natural gas, and the gas pipelines going from the Russian Far East to Europe pass through the Ukraine, they were getting discounted rates because the pipelines were on their lands. Every time the gov. in Kiev did something Putin did not like, he would turn off the gas. People are sick of being under his thumb. They tasted freedoms for a bit and as anyone would, they liked it, now the current president is taking away rights because he is a puppet. I have no idea how he was elected but some believe the election was fraudulent and influenced by Putin. Whatever he is now, he is always a KGB guy first.
Ukrainian Police is using lethal force on the people now and there's now talk about the Ukrainian Military getting deployed to crush the protesters via 1989 PLA Tiananmen Square style.
http://youtu.be/T6IbEIBhb8o
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg6PN0CCEAACRk3.jpg
I saw a video yesterday of "snipers" targeting protesters. Pretty ****ed up.
I saw a video yesterday of "snipers" targeting protesters. Pretty ****ed up.
Protestors burning policemen alive is also pretty ****ed up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85WBb9xA9AI#t=31
The_War_Wagon
02-21-14, 07:41
If I was them I'd choose BRICS over Bretton-Woods.
Assuming as few of them understand fiat economics, as understand it over here, that's going to be a steep, uphill climb...
Protestors burning policemen alive is also pretty ****ed up.
stop, drop and roll :-D
Maybe if the police would not be killing protestors who just want freedom they would not be under attack from flaming liquids! Obviously, I may be bias in this situation
Alex, all of the ukranians and their descendants I know around here (paraguay-argentina-brazil) share your views. Even more, when Hitller invaded Ukraine during WWII the germans were well received by most people, that should tell something about Stalin and Russia.
Not saying it is a simple issue, though, after so many years of virtual colonization by the russians and their many descendants there. Same thing for so many other URSS nations that the russians want back at whatever price.
stop, drop and roll :-D
Maybe if the police would not be killing protestors who just want freedom they would not be under attack from flaming liquids! Obviously, I may be bias in this situation
No doubt you obviously know quite a bit more about Ukraine and its problems, but the protesters were throwing fire bombs on police officers before blood was spilt.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k01_RTX191SR.jpg
And it may also have been the protestors who drew first blood.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k21_RTX192CU.jpg
And as much as I am trying to get a handle and just what the protestors are protesting, I still really don't know. What freedom don't then presently have that they are protesting for?
Why Does Ukraine Seem So Much Like Syria?
"In Ukraine, US-backed rebels seize weapons from a military depot and begin firing on police — killing at least ten. The rebel groups occupy and torch government buildings, trade union headquarters, the central post office, and political party headquarters. They occupy local government facilities in other cities and physically attack local authorities. Their goal is to overthrow the elected government."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/why-does-ukraine-seem-so-much-like-syria/
Russian gas distribution to Europe runs through Ukraine.
Ukraine has been in talks with the EU, regarding a trade agreement.
Moscow has a tendency to shut down gas supply to the Ukraine when Kiev does something that is not in line with their wishes.
The current Ukraine gov is Russia-friendly. Yanukovych backed out of the trade agreement talks with the EU, and favored a closer relationship with Russia. That is what caused the riots.
I guess the population is sick and tired of being victims of Russian influence on their country.
A deal has been signed by both parties, and things are apparently quieting down. Also, Yulia Tymoshenko, the opposition leader who was imprisoned is maybe being released.
I hardly see this escalating into something more than what we see now...
No doubt you obviously know quite a bit more about Ukraine and its problems, but the protesters were throwing fire bombs on police officers before blood was spilt.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k01_RTX191SR.jpg
And it may also have been the protestors who drew first blood.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k21_RTX192CU.jpg
And as much as I am trying to get a handle and just what the protestors are protesting, I still really don't know. What freedom don't then presently have that they are protesting for?
Could be wrong as I was not there and don't trust the Ukrainian media but the protests would not have turned violent had not the Militsiya stepped in. The people wanted to "peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" :-D The government wanted to crack down on opposition and protests, protesters were told to f off, they believed they should be able to protest. The rest we see on TV now.
Could be wrong as I was not there and don't trust the Ukrainian media but the protests would not have turned violent had not the Militsiya stepped in. The people wanted to "peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" :-D The government wanted to crack down on opposition and protests, protesters were told to f off, they believed they should be able to protest. The rest we see on TV now.
Fair enough, but police officers telling protesters to disperse and go home does not warrant them being set on fire, and I still don't know what freedoms the protestors are asking for?
Belloc, if you believe the official version of how all these events developed, you might as well believe Maduro's version of what is happening is Venezuela...
Fair enough, but police officers telling protesters to disperse and go home does not warrant them being set on fire, and I still don't know what freedoms the protestors are asking for?
The initial protest was not for rights, but it quickly turned that way when the rights they had were taken away. From what I understand the protests started when the current president tore up a potential trade agreement with the EU in favor of one with Russia. Once the protest started, Yanukovych tried to/did ram through legislation making it illegal to demonstrate/protest/voice decent. He had the leader of the opposition arrested and imprisoned. Other opposition leaders were abducted/captured/arrested from/in their homes by police without any due process and held without charges, beaten and so on. This is when the protests turned from peaceful to violent (around 18 Feb) The fear is that the Ukraine which was trying to westernize with fair laws and judicial system will become an oppressive state like Russian in order to please Putin and lead to possible reunification.
One thing is for sure, regardless of who started what, if you threw a few firebombs into an AMERICAN police force in a major city in the U.S.A. you would see similar results.
This is an excellent article to understand what is going on:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10653932/The-pictures-from-Kiev-dont-tell-the-whole-story.html
The pictures from Kiev don't tell the whole story
By Anne Applebaum - 8:13PM GMT 21 Feb 2014
Yes, the photographs from Kiev this week were uncanny, even “apocalyptic”. The orange sky, the burning buses, the blood on the barricades did indeed create scenes which looked like a Second World War movie. They made the city seem foreign, exotic, unreal – which is precisely why you should be wary of them.
Certainly there were quite a few things that the pictures didn’t show. The rest of Kiev, for example: it was far from business as usual in the Ukrainian capital this week, but neither was the entire city a war zone. The fighting was concentrated in a few places, and the rest of Kiev looked no different from any other European city.
The rest of the country wasn’t in the pictures either. In the city of Lutsk, in Western Ukraine, police not only refused to fight anti-government demonstrators, they joined them in demanding the resignation of the Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych.
In truth, large parts of the country are already run by people who bitterly oppose Yanukovych and will happily say so quite loudly. Even if Kiev were permanently cleared of government opponents, the government’s problems would not be over. Disagreement is spread far beyond the capital.
More importantly, the pictures didn’t explain the motives of those who are taking part in these scenes. Nor did they explain why others, including many who were nowhere to be seen, went out of their way to create this kind of havoc.
This latest round of violence began, after all, with a surprise attack. On Monday, negotiations to alter the constitution and limit the powers of the president seemed to be progressing. Some demonstrators had even agreed to withdraw from government buildings that their protest camps had been blocking for many weeks.
But on Tuesday, the parliament, which is controlled by the president, abruptly blocked the reform. At the same time, police launched a violent attack on the remaining protesters, who had spent weeks preparing for just such an eventuality. To protect themselves, they set fire to the barricades which had surrounded them. Those flames made the Kiev scenes appear so dramatic.
The riot police did not act alone. In addition to the men in uniform, the Ukrainian government also employs plain-clothes thugs who periodically show up and wreak mayhem. In the past few weeks, groups of unidentified men – death squads – have grabbed activists off the street, beaten them or tortured them, cut off their ears, and left them in the woods for dead.
On Tuesday, they stopped the taxi of a well-known journalist, pulled him out and shot him. This wasn’t “crowd control”. Nor was this a legitimate response to troublesome demonstrators or an accident caused by circumstances. This was a planned murder.
When violence is deliberately provocative, it is always important to ask why – and in whose interests? Some of this state-organised thuggery was, of course, intended to scare people, to keep them away from the barricades and prevent them from joining the protests. But it was also intended to inflame people: violence can make any situation spin out of control.
To some extent, the attempt to make people very, very angry has succeeded. There were no violent protesters in November, when the unrest began: the original demonstrators were mostly young people profoundly disappointed by Yanukovych’s last-minute decision not to sign a trade treaty with Europe, and to join a Russian-led Customs’ Union instead.
There was no violence on New Year’s Eve either, when many tens of thousands of Ukrainians came to central Kiev to hear speeches, wave the European flag, and sing the national anthem.
But since then, the government’s opponents have been provoked, threatened and teased by a president who awarded himself dictatorial powers, then rescinded some of them, who has agreed several times to make big changes and then stopped short.
Now he has once again reversed: after two days of unexpectedly terrifying violence – and with heavy encouragement from three European foreign ministers and the threat of personal EU sanctions – he has agreed to bring back the old constitution, to hold early elections, and not to press charges against anyone.
It is possible that the opposition will still be reluctant to go home. After many months, Ukraine’s peaceful protest movement has developed into a much different, angrier and more volatile crowd, one which will indeed tear up paving stones and throw them at police who are spraying them with water cannons, or will capture police guns and ammunition and begin to use those as well.
And this is precisely the transformation that some wanted. Photographs of such violence certainly help the cause of the Russian parliamentarian who has just declared that he and his colleagues are “prepared to give all the necessary assistance should the fraternal Ukrainian people ask for it”. Since “fraternal assistance” was the term used to describe the Soviet invasion of Prague in 1968, or Afghanistan in 1979, this was clearly understood as a threat of military intervention.
Violence also helps the cause of those who want to describe all of the demonstrations as a “coup d’etat” orchestrated by “fascists” or “far-Right” extremists. It is just as useful for those who still want to organise an “anti-terrorist operation” and carry out martial law.
The chief of the Ukrainian security agency called for precisely such an “anti-terrorist operation” this week, and interior ministry troops were being prepared. Yanukovych has, for the moment, abandoned that plan: after signing the agreement negotiated with the opposition and the EU yesterday, riot police once again pulled back from the central square and the army is presumably back in its barracks.
But if Yanukovych wants to reverse himself again, there is still time.
Finally, the photographs of violent struggle and burning buses are misleading because they mask what is, in fact, a legitimate argument about the future of Ukraine.
Appearances to the contrary, the conflict we are witnessing is not an atavistic, ethno-linguistic struggle between Russians and Ukrainians, or some kind of tussle between street thugs and police. There are no ancient ethnic rivalries at stake.
It is not even clear that the Ukrainian political struggle is really just a geographic dispute, as it is so often characterised, between the more “European” western half of the country and the more “Russian” East.
On the contrary, this is a political conflict, and one which is not that hard to understand. On the one side are Ukrainians (both Russian and Ukrainian-speaking) who want to live in a “European” democracy with human rights and rule of law, one which is genuinely integrated with the European Union and the rest of the world. The supporters of this “European” option include students, pacifists, gay and environmental activists, as well as Right-wing nationalists and people motivated by memories of the terrible crimes that Stalin carried out in Ukraine 80 years ago.
On the other side are Ukrainians (also both Russian and Ukrainian-speaking) who support an undemocratic, oligarchic regime which is politically and economically dependent on Russia, more cut off from the European Union, and affiliated instead with the customs union controlled from Moscow.
Some of this regime’s supporters are the tiny elite who have made such massive profits from Ukrainian corruption, and who have famously purchased some of London’s most expensive homes (and, if rumours are correct, may have rapidly taken up residence in them this week).
Others without such wealth may fear the violent extremists they have seen on the television news, and the forces of general disorder. Still others may fear that even a trade agreement with Europe would entail deep reforms and economic changes, threatening their jobs.
Either way, this is not a fight over which language to speak or even over who controls Kiev’s main square. Historical allegiances are not an issue, either. Though both get bandied about, neither the word “fascist” nor the word “communist” is correctly applied to either side.
On the contrary, the fighting on the street this week was the latest manifestation of a deep national disagreement over the nature of the Ukrainian state, the shape of Ukraine’s economy, the status of the legal system, the country’s membership of international organisations. This is a legitimate political argument, and ultimately it can only have a political solution. And, in the end, this is why you should treat those dramatic photographs with caution.
This is not a war, or even a conflict which either side can win with weapons. It will have to be solved through negotiations, elections, political debate; by civic organisations, political parties and political leaders, both charismatic and otherwise; with the participation of other European states and Ukraine’s other neighbours.
The thugs, riot police and men bearing arms may be part of the problem right now, but in the very long term, they won’t bring about a solution.
People, fighting for their rights, and their freedom.
Belloc, if you believe the official version of how all these events developed, you might as well believe Maduro's version of what is happening is Venezuela...
What's happening in Venezuela makes the Ukraine seem like Disneyland.
Bosnia's about to light off too. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0208/Bosnia-sees-smaller-protests-after-days-of-violent-rioting
All you need to know is the Neo-Cons are spoiling for US military intervention in the Ukraine.
What are your questions?
Belloc, if you believe the official version of how all these events developed, you might as well believe Maduro's version of what is happening is Venezuela...
Red herring. I never once stated I believed anything either side has said, and in fact I actually don't have any reason to believe a single word anyone in the conflict is saying. But what I do know is that images such as this were appearing in the press well before there was any reporting of bloodshed.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/kiev021814/s_k25_70107371.jpg
But if you have any reason to believe you know for a fact who drew first blood then I would certainly be interested to read it.
montanadave
02-21-14, 20:13
Well, shit, looks like we're right on schedule to celebrate the centennial of WWI, the War to End All Wars, with the beginning of WWIII. Or is it WWIV? Not sure where the GWOT fits in.
I'm sure we can update the lyrics as soon as we know where we're headed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Y0ekr-3So
You'd think folks would eventually wise up. :rolleyes:
Well, shit, looks like we're right on schedule to celebrate the centennial of WWI, the War to End All Wars, with the beginning of WWIII. Or is it WWIV? Not sure where the GWOT fits in.
I'm sure we can update the lyrics as soon as we know where we're headed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Y0ekr-3So
You'd think folks would eventually wise up. :rolleyes:
Off topic, but one of my high school history books stated that there's been 8 "world wars." It was referring to things like the French-Indian war, which was a proxy between the British. It's point (this is based off 20 year old memory) was that battles between the Navies ran across the globe (kind of like the movie Master and Commander, where the British ship was following the French ship around S. America).
Anyone else see a similarity between this and Clancy's new book, Command Authority? It's amazing how many times stuff he writes comes close to reality.
The news is reporting that the Ukrainian President has fled the capital… Interesting times ahead.
ForTehNguyen
02-22-14, 08:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYujlJW3fRg
Well, shit, looks like we're right on schedule to celebrate the centennial of WWI, the War to End All Wars, with the beginning of WWIII. Or is it WWIV? Not sure where the GWOT fits in.
You'd think folks would eventually wise up. :rolleyes:
Hey now Wall Street don't be slow
It's a War-a-go-go
Plenty of money to be made,
Keepin' the Army in tools of the trade
No truer words were ever spoken.
For anyone who still thinks we have a dog in this fight, I would refer you to MG Smedley Butler (USMC) and "War Is A Racket".
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
Seriously, read it, and tell me why again we need to get involved in the Ukraine.
Hey now Wall Street don't be slow
It's a War-a-go-go
Plenty of money to be made,
Keepin' the Army in tools of the trade
No truer words were ever spoken.
For anyone who still thinks we have a dog in this fight, I would refer you to MG Smedley Butler (USMC) and "War Is A Racket".
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
Seriously, read it, and tell me why again we need to get involved in the Ukraine.
This ^... I cannot agree more.. If Obombo wants to get into a war in the Ukraine, He needs impeached, right there on the spot.. Any Senator, or House Rep, that votes in favor of such nonsense, needs to have either him or her self, or one or more of their kids rounded up and put in a uniform and be the first boots on the ground before anyone else. Maybe if they had some "skin" in the game, they might think about it for more than 2 seconds... The endless war has got to stop.
Grand58742
02-22-14, 11:01
It's not our fight.
This times 1000. And now that the Ukrainian President is refusing to listen to his Parliament? That makes matters even worse as the divisions in the people will widen.
It's now Putin's move to see what Russia will do now that it looks like the protesters have won...
Magic_Salad0892
02-22-14, 20:14
Think we'll take action in Bosnia again?
RogerinTPA
02-22-14, 21:04
It's not our fight.
Yet we try to influence the Ukrainians to lean towards the west by funneling 5 billions dollars via the state department through Germany to them to protest.
Putin is playing nicey until Sochi ends. Then the most optimistic scenario I can imagine is the Crimea with Russian majority splits off and allies with Russia while western Ukraine gets tight with the west. My big fear is Russia and China synchronizing aggresive expansionist moves while abetting global, Iranian backed Jihadist mischief to distract int'l attention.
Would we allow Taiwan to be invaded? Japan attacked? E. Euro satillites reconquered? Obama's foreign policy may be interpreted by hardliners as "There will never be a better time." Scary possibilities.
Yet we try to influence the Ukrainians to lean towards the west by funneling 5 billions dollars via the state department through Germany to them to protest.
We should stay out of it completely. It's none of our business.
TacMedic556
02-22-14, 23:12
Ukraine has OIL, Nat gas, Iron, Agriculture, tax base, land. EU wants all of the above. Russia wants all of the above. EU wants more.....Russia wants more. Same old story different times.
Hitler invaded that region with Operation Citadel (Zitadelle) in 1943 for the reasons of procuring these much needed items. Russia countered. 1,000,000 men died in Kursk alone.
I agree with those who have said stay out. We need to guard and protect America. I am not a pacifist, but I don't want to see you my brothers, or my sons die so that the EU can get more or Russia can get more of anything.
We should sit this one out but be ready to guard our own. My $.02
Kursk 1943
2392423925
Maybe we should watch their tactics, sit back, and learn...
Belmont31R
02-23-14, 00:49
Graphic; snipers shooting protestors. http://youtu.be/qSvj8F_Br4M
Look for the presence of US State Department NGOs over the past right years or so. USAID, AEI are two of the more prominent ones. They were "front and center" at ALL of the previous Color Revolutions, including what's happening in Venezuela.
Also, there are captured emails as well as audio PROOF that the West was up to its eyeballs in this. Most of you don't follow geopolitics very closely and for whatever reasons have a hard time accepting the fact that your government has been screwing others over prior to them now screwing us here at home. But that's the price of of a public-at-large that chooses ignorance, arrogance and apathy over vigilance.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Time to start calling and faxing our representatives offices.
Cagemonkey
02-23-14, 06:54
Look for the presence of US State Department NGOs over the past right years or so. USAID, AEI are two of the more prominent ones. They were "front and center" at ALL of the previous Color Revolutions, including what's happening in Venezuela.
Also, there are captured emails as well as audio PROOF that the West was up to its eyeballs in this. Most of you don't follow geopolitics very closely and for whatever reasons have a hard time accepting the fact that your government has been screwing others over prior to them now screwing us here at home. But that's the price of of a public-at-large that chooses ignorance, arrogance and apathy over vigilance.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."I concur. Most hear don't get it. You can lead a horse to water.............
Look for the presence of US State Department NGOs over the past right years or so. USAID, AEI are two of the more prominent ones. They were "front and center" at ALL of the previous Color Revolutions, including what's happening in Venezuela.
Also, there are captured emails as well as audio PROOF that the West was up to its eyeballs in this. Most of you don't follow geopolitics very closely and for whatever reasons have a hard time accepting the fact that your government has been screwing others over prior to them now screwing us here at home. But that's the price of of a public-at-large that chooses ignorance, arrogance and apathy over vigilance.
And no one knows this better than Putin. He must know that there is a very strong likelihood that if Ukraine moves into the EU geopolitical orbit, it would only be a matter of time, perhaps less than a decade, before NATO would be openly encouraging them to apply for full membership. I wonder if he would go so far as to roll tanks to prevent that from happening.
http://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/27602.gif
Cagemonkey
02-23-14, 08:18
And no one knows this better than Putin. He must know that there is a very strong likelihood that if Ukraine moves into the EU geopolitical orbit, it would only be a matter of time, perhaps less than a decade, before NATO would be openly encouraging them to apply for full membership. I wonder if he would go so far as to roll tanks to prevent that from happening.
http://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/27602.gifGood stuff. Its looking now that their is a good potential for the Ukraine to be divided. The N/West(Pro EU) from the S/East(Pro Russia). I expect things to heat up after Sochi. Putin most likely will work on the perimeter and not take direct action/confrontation IMO.
Good stuff. Its looking now that their is a good potential for the Ukraine to be divided. The N/West(Pro EU) from the S/East(Pro Russia). I expect things to heat up after Sochi. Putin most likely will work on the perimeter and not take direct action/confrontation IMO.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/02/23/article-0-1BBF828700000578-989_964x663.jpg
Hard to imagine any division of the country without some sort of bloodletting like was seen when Yugoslavia broke up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565961/As-Ukrainian-parliament-names-new-acting-president-country-finally-pulled-apart-bitter-divide-20-years-making.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/01/24/Foreign/Images/Ukraine_Protest-046db-8559.jpg
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ukraine120213/s_u01_RTX160E2.jpg
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1576389/thumbs/o-KIEV-900.jpg?6
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ad_125507893.jpg?w=649
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/19dg1r1enorx1jpg/ku-xlarge.jpg
http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ap_taksim_park_turkey_protest_fireworks_thg_130611_wmain.jpg
http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1358617/police-take-cover-shields.jpg
http://media.vocativ.com/photos/2014/01/Weapons-Of-Ukrainian-Protestors-013473158558.jpg
Those are excellent pictures, very dramatic.
Appears to be a collection of pictures taken by different individuals as all have a Reuter's connection.
Good post. I hope this whole thing doesn't open the door to hell. Putin is quietly waiting I am sure. Great pics.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ap_taksim_park_turkey_protest_fireworks_thg_130611_wmain.jpg
That looks apocalyptic right there. Impressive photo.
Anyone who would go up against an armed police / military force with slingshots, rocks and Molotov cocktails gets my respect even if I may not agree with there ideology.
.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/02/23/article-0-1BBF828700000578-989_964x663.jpg
Hard to imagine any division of the country without some sort of bloodletting like was seen when Yugoslavia broke up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565961/As-Ukrainian-parliament-names-new-acting-president-country-finally-pulled-apart-bitter-divide-20-years-making.html
Problem solved.
It look like we have two new countries - Ukraine and Crimea. Next slide.
Of course the Neo-Con Globalists will never go for it.
Click on this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=1
And about halfway down you will be able to see a photo where you can scroll left to right to see a before and after.
VooDoo6Actual
02-23-14, 10:55
There's a far bigger agenda in play. Sea-Change coming....
Joke for the day:
How does Justin Bieber remove a condom ?
He farts
Ukraine's Crisis, Not Ours
By Patrick J. Buchanan
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/02/patrick-j-buchanan/hands-off-ukraine/
Another article by Buchanan, this one from 2004.
"What Are We Up To In Ukraine?"
http://archive.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan15.html
thopkins22
02-23-14, 16:20
Graphic; snipers shooting protestors. http://youtu.be/qSvj8F_Br4M
Unbelievable footage. Unbelievable bravery regardless of whom you side with. These guys are marching to their deaths with nothing but sheet metal shields and hard hats in an effort to rescue their comrades. You have to wonder if the protesters are still fighting the last battle in which shields were very beneficial, and are simply hampering their mobility with them and putting blaze orange indicators on their heads now.
I do fail to see the morality of shooting these men, and particularly in shooting those whom are retreating. Very tough viewing even in the days of desensitization from a decade of highly documented wars.
Another article by Buchanan, this one from 2004.
"What Are We Up To In Ukraine?"
http://archive.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan15.html
Everyone should read this.
Keep in mind that this coup is a George Soros operation. The same George Soros funds the Obama Regime.
Cagemonkey
02-23-14, 18:31
Everyone should read this.
Keep in mind that this coup is a George Soros operation. The same George Soros funds the Obama Regime.Good advise. Thanks for the update Belloc. Shows this plan had been in the works for a decade.
Wonder when in the hell we'll take our own country back?
Wonder when in the hell we'll take our own country back?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
It's been tried before with poor results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
It's been tried before with poor results.
Yup, sadly I'm fully aware of that situation, as of late...thanks to another thread that was on here in the GD.
It just blows my mind watching those folks over in the Ukraine right now, driving back an Opressive Regime, and taking fire like that, while being unarmed. It shows that there are actually still human beings out there that are willing to fight and die for there Freedom, against poor Odds.
Look at our Country and the current state we're in... way too many striking similiarities imho.
VooDoo6Actual
02-23-14, 23:00
Look at our Country and the current state we're in... way too many striking similiarities imho.
somebody's paying attention....
My wife is Ukrainian, and I've been to the very place in Kiev where the protests are happening numerous times. It's a sad day for Ukraine, and every Ukrainian I know in the USA is having a hard time dealing with their normal day to day lives knowing what is happening over there. Yanukovych is a criminal and a puppet of Czar Putin. The people of Ukraine deserve better.
The Irony.....
that's like saying: Holder is a criminal & a puppet for Czar Obama. The people of America deserve better.
:confused: I guess I'm not following what you are trying to say.
Nevermind & no sweat, not worth it if you don't get it.
I know, most don't have a clue. I gave up trying to help & educate it was completely a waste & futile. I have not seen one post to date here that says: Hmmm, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Venezuela, MB, Radicals, Islamofascism, EU, IMF, NATO, Global Warming, Polar Vortex, EMP's, CME's & a completely divided USA (culturally, economically, racially, religious, transhumanism, LBGT, DEM vs. GOP, militarily, propaganda & Media of Mass Distraction etc.
Of course we did elude to the "Hegelian Dialectic" how many years ago ?
The Band played on....NBC
You HD1911 Sir, have mad critical thinking skills... congrats...
Everyone should read this.
Keep in mind that this coup is a George Soros operation. The same George Soros funds the Obama Regime.
Can you imagine if the USSR and Warsaw Pact were still around, and they were attempting to overthrow the democratically elected government in Canada so as to install a puppet regime that would be favourable to joining the Warsaw Pact? And if we also had someone like a Reagan as president, and how much he would be ready to take just about any actions necessary to prevent that from happening? It seems like that is exactly the position we are putting Putin and Russia in, and doing to the Ukraine.
somebody's paying attention....
You HD1911 Sir, have mad critical thinking skills... congrats...
Are you ****ing with me, or being serious?
Are you ****ing with me, or being serious?
I hope he is not, I see similarities as well. It's not hard to see that we also have a president who is taking the country in a direction contrary to the wishes of the majority. Every poll I have seen as of late shows growing disapproval of his policies.
My estimation is that the people of the Ukraine feel like maybe they have a bit less to loose starting this fight and still have vivid memories of 1991 and 2004. They are willing to pick up the cause. For us, 1776 is too far in the distance and we have lost the will. The majority of Americans would rather go to work, pick up McDonald's on the way home and stuff their face with those delicious fried while they watch their "stories". It's been said in other threads, the majority simply have too much to loose to show such opposition to our government, but the similarities can not be ignored. It's only the reaction that is different.
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 06:46
Are you ****ing with me, or being serious?
Serious
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 06:48
I hope he is not, I see similarities as well. It's not hard to see that we also have a president who is taking the country in a direction contrary to the wishes of the majority. Every poll I have seen as of late shows growing disapproval of his policies.
My estimation is that the people of the Ukraine feel like maybe they have a bit less to loose starting this fight and still have vivid memories of 1991 and 2004. They are willing to pick up the cause. For us, 1776 is too far in the distance and we have lost the will. The majority of Americans would rather go to work, pick up McDonald's on the way home and stuff their face with those delicious fried while they watch their "stories". It's been said in other threads, the majority simply have too much to loose to show such opposition to our government, but the similarities can not be ignored. It's only the reaction that is different.
Give that man a Cigar. You got some of it.
It's deeper than that & Ukraine's terra firma is divided (resonate ?)
Putin's boy Admiral Ilyin (a Belarusian & loyalist from the Crimea region) is in place as Yanukovych made the appointment before he poped smoke. Now that Sochi is done, w/o a major T event & having a sucessful Winter Olympics w/ a record 88 countries compete in Winter Olympics, the Putinator is back gluing his 15+Billion $ pre-coup deal he made squeezing out the EU's IMF's bid.
Putin's 'Box full of Chocks' 15 Billion+ bail Ukraine out of bankruptcy GAZPROM Gas (that EU uses & is dependant on as well) et al pre-coup deal not to mention his sweet deal of the Century for securing a lease from 2010-2042 Ukrainian Sea Sevastopol giving Russia sea access to ME etc. Which caused an actual fist-fight in the Ukrainian Parliament back in 10'.
As a side note, I will be curious to see what comes of the "Fracking" deal near the borders Yanukovych cut w/ Chevron & Shell.
Like I said, I'm not compelled to do people's reading or research w/ limited knowledge of the Grand Chessboard. Do your own.
Another good read.
Diplomacy, Not Empty Threats, are Needed in Ukraine
By Eric Margolis
February 22, 2014
"...Besides being hypocritical, Washington’s policy towards Russia is increasingly dangerous. Have we learned nothing from the diplomatic folly that led to World War I?
The US has steadily pushed its strategic influence to Russia’s borders in the Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Central Asia. This in spite of a promise to Mikhail Gorbachev by the George Bush Sr. administration not to do so in exchange for the Kremlin allowing the peaceful collapse of the Soviet Empire.
Gorbachev kept his side of the pact; Washington did not."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/02/eric-margolis/is-the-us-trying-to-start-wwiii/
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 07:58
Another good read.
Lew has some good stuff, 'tyrannos' hate him.
BTW,
I'm curious if you caught this or not, his all Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual leader of over 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide, will meet with Pope Francis May 24-26, 2014 in the Holy City of Jerusalem.
http://www.goarch.org/news/jeruasalem-first%20anmnt-02202014/
What's up w/ that ?
Ping me via PM if you have an opinion, not to detract from this thread & being mindful of netiquette protocols & all that.
Oh boy.
U.S. warns Russia
"National Security Adviser Susan E. Rice said the situation unfolding in Kiev “reflects the will of the Ukrainian people and the interests of the United States and Europe,” and that Russia would be making a “grave mistake” if it sends in military forces to try to reverse the developments — or to seize control of pro-Moscow eastern Ukraine."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/23/us-warns-russia-to-keep-its-military-out-of-ukrain/
Anyone else think that the U.S. basically pulling down Putin's trousers in front of the whole world and then pointing and laughing at his manhood, is not going to end with him saying "Ah shucks, haha, ya got me!"?
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 08:28
Good advice, wrong address: Russia responds to Susan Rice ‘no tanks to Ukraine’ warning
http://rt.com/news/russia-usa-rice-advice-450/
“We have noted the expert assessment of Susan Rice based on multiple cases when American troops were sent to various places of the word, especially those where the US administration believed the norms of Western democracy were in danger, or where the local regimes were getting out of hand,” a Russian Foreign Ministry source told news agencies on Monday.
The source added that, “We expect that national security adviser would be giving to the US leadership the same advice on the mistaken path of the use of force if it decides to conduct a new intervention.”
Like I said (& no one paid attention then either) Cold War went hot via Ziggy pulling strings a while back...
From the Times article posted by Belloc:
“If I was Vladimir Putin today at the end of the Olympics, I’d be a little nervous,” said Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican. “The people of Russia have watched this transpire, and they’re tired of the crony capitalism and kleptocracy that governs Russia today.”
Pot meet kettle...
Also from the article:
In Washington, Ms. Rice tried to downplay the idea that the U.S. and Russia have opposing interests in Ukraine.
“This is not about the U.S. and Russia; this is about whether the people of Ukraine have the opportunity to fulfill their aspirations and be democratic and be part of Europe, which they choose to be,” she said.
“It’s in nobody’s interest to see violence returned and the situation escalate,” said Ms. Rice, adding that Ukraine could have “long-standing historic and cultural ties to Russia” while moving to “integrate more closely with Europe.”
“These need not be mutually exclusive,” she said.
Horseshit, This is about Obama trying to get a win against Putin after he was taken to school over Syria. The IMF want's this deal badly because they are losing ground to the BRIC's with increasing regularity.
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 13:56
as I suspected & knew, I wasn't the only one seeing it either
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/02/24/Pat-Caddell-Kiev-Could-Happen-Here-Americas-Under-Soft-Oppression-Of-Complacency-And-Corruption
Even better is the development is this key grasp of the obvious...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/02/24/Freedom-101-NRA-GOA-and-C2AA-Support-Push-For-A-Ukrainian-2nd-Amendment
as I suspected & knew, I wasn't the only one seeing it either
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/02/24/Pat-Caddell-Kiev-Could-Happen-Here-Americas-Under-Soft-Oppression-Of-Complacency-And-Corruption
Even better is the development is this key grasp of the obvious...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/02/24/Freedom-101-NRA-GOA-and-C2AA-Support-Push-For-A-Ukrainian-2nd-Amendment
Keep up the good work, bud. I'm sharing this with everyone I know.
Thanks.
VooDoo6Actual
02-24-14, 14:16
Keep up the good work, bud. I'm sharing this with everyone I know.
Thanks.
FREEDOM 101: NRA, GOA, AND C2AA SUPPORT PUSH FOR A UKRAINIAN 2ND AMENDMENT
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/02/24/Freedom-101-NRA-GOA-and-C2AA-Support-Push-For-A-Ukrainian-2nd-Amendment
If (it's a big "IF" no doubt & Putin won't want it either & I'm not saying it necessarily will happen) this gets any legs, it would be an understatement to say HUGE. If would be an abject Epic Fail on many people's list & a almost uncomprehensible paradigm shift. It's a complete Wild Card that was truly unseen & not predicted.
"This is freedom's teeth. And it is another proof that others around the world want what we have here in America. They see and want freedom's light, even through our own president is doing all he can to dim that light here."
BTW, don't kid yourself for a second & think Ukrainians are not paying attention to what is happening in America as well. They are a smart, richly cultured, fantastic people having spent time there myself. The women there are amongst the HOTTEST on this planet & their gene pool is fairly pure & untainted ;-/.
as a side note the world's arena is on fire:
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/23/morsi-accused-ofleakingstatesecrets.html
As I said earlier, "Sea-change" times ahead indeed...
Oh boy.
Anyone else think that the U.S. basically pulling down Putin's trousers in front of the whole world and then pointing and laughing at his manhood, is not going to end with him saying "Ah shucks, haha, ya got me!"?
Well, Putin in nobody's fool. What is valuable to him are the ports in Crimea. I am sure he will weigh his options, but I think in the fullness of time he will go into Ukraine to "stabilize" it and ultimately partition the country into a more Russia friendly place.
Right now the Russian govt's official position is there is no one to talk to in Kiev. The streets are being run by hooligans with Kalashnikovs. Let it play out.
Belmont31R
02-24-14, 16:30
Russia is sending warships and issuing passports to Crimeans.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-7-decoding-documents-indicting-dictators/#2200
RogerinTPA
02-24-14, 18:11
Well, Putin in nobody's fool. What is valuable to him are the ports in Crimea. I am sure he will weigh his options, but I think in the fullness of time he will go into Ukraine to "stabilize" it and ultimately partition the country into a more Russia friendly place.
Right now the Russian govt's official position is there is no one to talk to in Kiev. The streets are being run by hooligans with Kalashnikovs. Let it play out.
Agreed. With this spineless administration, potus is in no position to do jack, other than to feed money to the opposition. As for the US intervening militarily, I don't see it. I would be more concerned with our troops being abandoned once they're committed, if he did choose to go down that road. Putin could take that portion of the country who stands against him, in a week if he was so inclined. You can bet the EU coozes won't be getting involved militarily either, so we won't go it alone.
Just look at Russian intervention in Georgia. This is the template for pending Russian Stability Operation in Crimea.
A look inside the recently vacated presidential home, complements of the Chive ---"The Ukrainian president has been impeached by the parliament and he has fled his home, leaving it empty for locals to come and visit." http://thechive.com/2014/02/24/a-look-inside-the-recently-vacated-luxury-home-of-ukraine-president-viktor-yanukovych-40-photos/
"Is Ukraine Drifting Toward Civil War And Great Power Confrontation?"
http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/35046/Paul-Craig-Roberts-Is-Ukraine-Drifting-Toward-Civil-War-And-Great-Power-Confrontation/
"Russia Prepared To Fight War Over Ukraine, Senior Government Official Admits"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-21/russia-prepared-fight-war-over-ukraine-senior-government-official-admits
"What Is Happening In Ukraine Is Far More Important Than Most People Realize"
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/what-is-happening-in-ukraine-is-far-more-important-than-most-people-realize
I thought this was interesting:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/23/democracy-murdered-protest-ukraine-falls-intrigue-violence/
RogerinTPA
02-26-14, 13:21
Interesting read.
http://scgnews.com/washingtons-role-in-the-ukrainian-coup-how-it-may-spin-out-of-control
Wow... I feel like just changing my name to "Pawn (some random number)" John Donne was correct no matter how small I try to make my bubble.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
VooDoo6Actual
02-26-14, 14:02
Interesting read.
http://scgnews.com/washingtons-role-in-the-ukrainian-coup-how-it-may-spin-out-of-control
I tried to research whom SCG News is any idea ?
Storm Clouds Gathering ?
The info is spot on.
Domain Name: SCGNEWS.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1729751757_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.enom.com
Registrar URL: www.enom.com
Updated Date: 2013-06-12 08:46:26Z
Creation Date: 2012-06-26 16:39:00Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2014-06-26 15:39:44Z
Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Registrar IANA ID: 48
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse@enom.com
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.4252744500
Reseller: NAMECHEAP.COM
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registry Registrant ID:
Registrant Name: AARON HAWKINS
Registrant Organization: PIXELCLEVER
Registrant Street: 2C RUE DE L'ORANGERIE
Registrant City: BEAUVAIS
Registrant State/Province: OISE
Registrant Postal Code: 60000
Registrant Country: FR
Registrant Phone: +1.5127824514
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax: +1.5555555555
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: AARON@PIXELCLEVER.COM
Registry Admin ID:
Admin Name: AARON HAWKINS
Admin Organization: PIXELCLEVER
Admin Street: 2C RUE DE L'ORANGERIE
Admin City: BEAUVAIS
Admin State/Province: OISE
Admin Postal Code: 60000
Admin Country: FR
Admin Phone: +1.5127824514
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax: +1.5555555555
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email: AARON@PIXELCLEVER.COM
Registry Tech ID:
Tech Name: AARON HAWKINS
Tech Organization: PIXELCLEVER
Tech Street: 2C RUE DE L'ORANGERIE
Tech City: BEAUVAIS
Tech State/Province: OISE
Tech Postal Code: 60000
Tech Country: FR
Tech Phone: +1.5127824514
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax: +1.5555555555
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email: AARON@PIXELCLEVER.COM
Name Server: NS1.BLUEHOST.COM
Name Server: NS2.BLUEHOST.COM
DNSSEC: unSigned
URL of the ICANN WHOIS Data Problem Reporting System: http://wdprs.internic.net/
Last update of WHOIS database: 2013-06-12 08:46:26Z
Natural Rights Media
Aaron Hawkins (Aaron@pixelclever.com)
2c Rue de L'Orangerie
Beauvais, FRENCH Guiana 60000
FR
Hmmm...
leads to here as well:
http://stormcloudsgathering.com
more here:
http://pjmedia.com/blog/author/awrhawkins/
http://www.breitbart.com/Columnists/AWR-Hawkins
Looks to be a fit...
RogerinTPA
02-26-14, 15:01
Bingo: Storm Clouds Gathering. I've been tracking him and his youtube series for a while.
"Savagery for All"
http://kunstler.com/cluster****-nation/4671/
"Culture, as we know, is resilient. But given that history, one wonders what the current disposition of all these historical tides portends. The few thousand Americans not completely distracted by tweeting the content of their breakfasts or shooting naked selfies or texting behind the wheel — yea, even the gallant minority not mentally colonized by the slave-masters of Silicon Valley — must wonder what the heck happened in the streets of Kiev last week. Or, as Sir Mick Jagger famously said at the deadly Altamont Speedway festival, “Who’s fighting, and what for?” By the way, don’t count the editors of The New York Times among the aforementioned gallant minority of digital idiocy resisters. Today’s front page contained this rich nugget:"
KIEV, Ukraine — "Ukraine’s acting interior minister issued a warrant on Monday for the arrest of former President Viktor F. Yanukovych, accusing him of mass
killing of civilian protesters in demonstrations last week…. Arsen Avakov, the acting official, made the announcement on his official Facebook page Monday."
VooDoo6Actual
02-26-14, 20:56
pretty good read here:
http://philosophyofmetrics.com/2014/02/26/ukrainian-currency-peg-and-u-s-military-reduction/#more-221
This article blow spells out SDR's & "The Plan"... Part One
http://philosophyofmetrics.com/2014/01/21/sdrs-and-the-new-bretton-woods-part-one/
"The International Monetary Fund issues a currency called SDR – Special Drawing Rights. The SDR’s are valued on a basket of currencies. In essence, it’s a true to life multiply reserve currency system. It has been slowly built up since the early 1970’s, at the same time the U.S. dollar started its serious devaluation. Could the plan have been in place since 1971 to end the dollar system through hyperinflation before implementing the SDR as a true world currency? Perhaps."
“The legislative process is underway right now. We want the reforms to be adopted expeditiously. It’s really the U.S. Treasury, Jack Lew and his team that’s taking the lead on getting these measures through the U.S. Congress that are required to implement the 2010 reforms.”
“Just to remind you what those are, the 2010 reforms do a couple things. One, they bring four dynamic emerging market countries into the top 10 shareholder ranks or what we call quota ranks of the institution. China, Brazil, Russia, India. It also doubles our permanent capital, the quota. And it also creates a fully elected Executive Board.”
– William Murray, I.M.F. Deputy Spokesman, Jan 9, 2014.
“The IMF is explicit in its antidemocratic leanings, what it calls “political considerations”. The SDR blueprint calls for the appointment of “an advisory board of eminent experts” to provide direction on the amount of money printing in the new SDR system. Perhaps these “eminent experts” would be selected from among the same economists and central bankers who led the international monetary system to the brink of destruction in 2008.”
– James Rickards, Currency Wars, Penguin Group, 2011
_______________________________________________________________________________
G. Edward Griffin’s mind altering “The Creature from Jekyll Island” introduced many of us to the somewhat hidden history of the U.S. Federal Reserve. It told of how the Federal Reserve Act was passed in Congress during the Christmas break in the year 1913. It was insidious. And it changed the course of human history, as it planted the seed of what would slowly grow to become the world’s reserve currency.
Though the U.S. dollar didn’t become the official reserve currency until the Bretton Woods Agreement of 1944, it is commonly accepted that the dollar had already usurped the British pound of this title well before it was officially acknowledged. As I believe the U.S. dollar has now already been usurped by another. We’ll get back to that in a while.
There was another event which took place in the year 1913 which has been little understood or known at all in the western world today. After the collapse of the Manchu Dynasty in 1911, the remaining Government of the Chinese Republic issued bonds to foreign investors for the purpose of raising capital to rebuild the country. These bonds were titled the 1913 Chinese Government 5% Reorganization Gold Loan. Emphasis on the word gold for later reference.
These bonds were pegged to the price of gold as a hedge against future inflation and were denominated in four currencies. The underwriting banks for the bonds reflect the four currencies which the bonds were interchangeable with at the time, which are now known as HSBC, Deutsche Bank, the Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, and Caylon – Credit Agricole Corporate and Investment Bank.
Keep in mind that these bonds were issued in the same context as the U.S. Treasury Bonds which the world’s central banks have been gobbling up since 1944. These bonds had a yield. These bonds have never fully been acknowledged by the Chinese government. As a part of the deal with the British government for the return of Hong Kong, the People’s Republic of China did honor 10% of the outstanding bonds at about 62% of the face value. And what I can say at this time is that there is in fact a deal in the works for a final payout on the remaining bonds. We’ll get back to that in a while.
10323072_1
In 1944, as a part of the Bretton Woods system, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank were created. These were western dominated institutions whose sole purpose was organizing foreign markets for the acceptance of U.S. dollars. We will leave the full explanation of these institutions and their role in structuring our current debt based system for another essay series, but for our purposes here, it’s important to understand that they propagated the exporting of dollar inflation to what we now call the “emerging markets”, or the BRICS countries.
Since the initial printing of the Federal Reserve Note (U.S. dollar) in 1913, the “dollar” has lost 95% of its value. We see this devaluation of the dollar as inflation, or the increase of costs for items we buy. This devaluation of the dollar has had a few milestones. One is after the Bretton Woods Agreement when the dollar became the primary reserve currency of the world. The second came when President Richard Nixon uncoupled the dollar from its peg with gold. This was in 1971. A third milestone can be argued to be in 1973, when the so called “petrodollar” was created with agreements between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, and later all the OPEC countries. This “petrodollar” scheme ensured that all oil trades were completed internationally in U.S. dollars. This was a slight-of-hand from the Bretton Woods arrangement to the “petrodollar” arrangement.
A fourth milestone was obviously the onset of Quantitative Easing after the financial crisis of 2008. The chart below clearly shows how with each milestone the amount of debt (money printing) by the U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve tag team has been multiplied dramatically leading to inflation. This is shown by an increase in the red line, which represents CPI – Consumer Price Index, the amount you pay for stuff.
20131212_Fed1
The only end to this pattern is an end to the dollar as the world’s primary reserve currency. Just like the British pound before it. In the chart below you’ll notice the same gradual downward pattern as the U.S. dollar.
BritishPound1791-2004NOTES
The central banks of the world were buying up U.S. treasuries before the British even accepted that there was a problem with the pound. The same is happening today with the dollar. In fact, most of the world outside the United States has already accepted the demise of the dollar as fact. But the idea is unfathomable to the average American.
The International Monetary Fund issues a currency called SDR – Special Drawing Rights. The SDR’s are valued on a basket of currencies. In essence, it’s a true to life multiply reserve currency system. It has been slowly built up since the early 1970’s, at the same time the U.S. dollar started its serious devaluation. Could the plan have been in place since 1971 to end the dollar system through hyperinflation before implementing the SDR as a true world currency? Perhaps.
On January 9, 2014, I.M.F. Deputy Spokesman William Murray was giving a press briefing. With zero coverage of this briefing in the western media, it’s important to relay what happened when the questioned was asked about the implementation of the 2010 Code of Reforms, or Governance Reforms. Mr. Murray answered by stating:
“The legislative process is underway right now. We want the reforms to be adopted expeditiously. It’s really the U.S. Treasury, Jack Lew and his team that’s taking the lead on getting these measures through the U.S. Congress that are required to implement the 2010 reforms.”
It seems both the U.S. Treasury and the I.M.F. are very anxious about these reforms. So what are they?
“Just to remind you what those are, the 2010 reforms do a couple things. One, they bring four dynamic emerging market countries into the top 10 shareholder ranks or what we call quota ranks of the institution. China, Brazil, Russia, India. It also doubles our permanent capital, the quota. And it also creates a fully elected Executive Board.”
This tells us a few important things. One, the influence of the BRICS countries within the structure of the I.M.F. is going to be greatly expanded. As stated, they will be in the top 10 shareholder ranks. These are positions previously dominated by western financial and U.S. dollar interests. The gravity of this statement cannot be understated.
Second, it’s telling us that the BRICS countries are bringing capital with them. Enough capital in fact, to double what the I.M.F. presently holds on reserve. The BRICS countries will be injecting a huge amount of capital into the SDR system. One only has to research the amount of gold being exported to the BRICS countries, especially China, to understand where this capital, or worth, will come from. We’ll get back to that in a while.
Thirdly, expanding the influence of the BRICS countries within the structure of the I.M.F. also “creates a fully elected Executive Board”. The Executive Board of the I.M.F. is responsible for SDR allocation. Let that sink in for a moment. The BRICS countries are going to have an equal say on SDR allocation. The SDR is being built up as the world’s reserve currency. The value of the SDR will be based on a basket of currencies. And the U.S. Treasury is pushing congress to make this happen.
On August 5, 2013, the Peoples Bank of China called for a “New Bretton Woods” system where the U.S. dollar would be removed as the world’s primary reserve currency. It also called for an expanded usage of the SDR and for the new system to be supported by gold.
In Part Two, we will explore how the U.S. debt, being the liabilities of both the Treasury and the Federal Reserve, will be consolidated with the treasury bonds held by China and rolled into the new SDR system. – JC Collins
In a nutshell to simply it: they are attempting to consolidate power Globally (geopolitically) via Neo-fuedalism / Vassel States, which explains the Coups' while locking / lynchpining as many Countries / states / vassels as possible for IMF monetarily to control the financial all aspects, (georesources i.e. energy sources) etc. using their exclusive "SDR" concept in their effort to control the World's currency.
^^ Wow, Thanks for keeping eyes wide open, this is first I've heard of this (guess news accidently forgot to report:rolleyes:). I have always said that the Federal Reserve was the devil. Our founding fathers knew the inherent dangers of a central banking system, and discouraged such an establishment. The Fed does not serve Americas interest, they serve the banking cartels whom are mostly not American based. FED cartel list are the Goldman Sachs, Rockefellers, Lehmans and Kuhn Loebs of New York; the Rothschilds of Paris and London; the Warburgs of Hamburg; the Lazards of Paris; and the Israel Moses Seifs of Rome.
Good read http://deanhenderson.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/the-federal-reserve-cartel-part-i-the-eight-families/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-27/two-russian-warships-enter-black-sea-through-bosphorus-another-docks-cuba
VooDoo6Actual
02-27-14, 17:29
Pretty informative interview, highly recommended.
http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-830-william-engdahl-exposes-the-western-agenda-in-ukraine/
Who controls the nukes in the Ukraine? Which faction? Oh, and which part of the country are they located in?
Who controls the nukes in the Ukraine? Which faction? Oh, and which part of the country are they located in?
They sent all the nukes back to Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine
They sent all the nukes back to Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine
Interesting....third largest in the world!
Read the whole thing and it appears that Ukraine sent all their strategic warheads to Russia for "dismantling". However, they suspended the shipment of tactical nukes in 1992. So it would seem that they do in fact retain tactical nukes but who controls them?
I know a guy that helped dismantle them. The strat nukes are gone.
This has Spetsnaz written all over it...
"The Road to War"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/02/eric-margolis/crimea-boils-over/
VooDoo6Actual
02-28-14, 10:34
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-road-to-moscow-goes-through-kiev-how-the-protests-in-ukraine-transformed-into-a-coup-that-could-target-russia/5370479
vodoo, the guy that wrote this piece is basically a POS...
See if you agree with his assestment in Venezuela:"Desestabilización imperial: primero Ucrania, ahora Venezuela" (Imperial desestabilization: Ukraine first, now Venezuela")
http://www.globalresearch.ca/desestabilizacion-imperial-primero-ucrania-ahora-venezuela/5370109
I know he is so seriously off the mark that it cannot simply be a deluded comment, but guy has an agenda and receives money to tell fairy tales.
RogerinTPA
02-28-14, 13:39
vodoo, the guy that wrote this piece is basically a POS...
See if you agree with his assestment in Venezuela:"Desestabilización imperial: primero Ucrania, ahora Venezuela" (Imperial desestabilization: Ukraine first, now Venezuela")
http://www.globalresearch.ca/desestabilizacion-imperial-primero-ucrania-ahora-venezuela/5370109
I know he is so seriously off the mark that it cannot simply be a deluded comment, but guy has an agenda and receives money to tell fairy tales.
Check this vid: Confessions of an economic hitman, and how America really goes to war for the corporatocracy and globalist.
The steps:
1. Economic hitmen to bribe a leader and bury the country in debt that it cannot repay.
2. Jackels are sent in to assassinate the leader if economic hitmen fail.
3. US Military: used to invade a country and replace the leader after extensive propaganda campaign is conducted in the country and internationally, to include paying indigenous population to protest that leader through front American NGOs.
It has been used over and over with great success.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVsB07CcSNw
You must learn to separate separate chaff from the wheat...
Anyone that thinks that Italy, Spain, Greece, etc. economical crisis are not primarily because of their own inept governments are seriously deluded.
thopkins22
02-28-14, 14:38
vodoo, the guy that wrote this piece is basically a POS...
See if you agree with his assestment in Venezuela:"Desestabilización imperial: primero Ucrania, ahora Venezuela" (Imperial desestabilization: Ukraine first, now Venezuela")
http://www.globalresearch.ca/desestabilizacion-imperial-primero-ucrania-ahora-venezuela/5370109
I know he is so seriously off the mark that it cannot simply be a deluded comment, but guy has an agenda and receives money to tell fairy tales.
I lived in Venezuela for many years, including Chavez's first election. If you think we aren't promoting anti-government sentiments there, you're not paying much attention. With that said, that author is also clearly not paying attention. The country is firmly divided, with almost every person of any education being against the government, and most of them with the means are not living there anymore. The government has been brutal in regards to free speech and the media. They have no leg to stand on, and anyone that defends them is clearly defending communism light. Even many of the utterly impoverished chavistas are beginning to see the light.
But to take that and say, "we're not playing in that game" is absolutely false.
Sevastapol airport surrounded by unknown military forces: http://theaviationist.com/2014/02/28/belbek-airport-unknown-troops/
Videos of Hinds overflying Crimean airspace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVyPiHVZ1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYFh2lABg48
thopkins22, of course the US is involved in Venezuela, that is not the point. It is the rest and general interpretatation of events of the article that is so off the mark.
FWIW, I'm paraguayan, live in Paraguay, travel a lot in the region and have many friends there.
If you can read spanish, see this letter written by a venezuelan leftist student nonetheless:
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1667459-la-crisis-en-venezuela-desde-adentro-el-emotivo-relato-de-la-prima-de-jorge-drexler
I lived in Venezuela for many years, including Chavez's first election. If you think we aren't promoting anti-government sentiments there, you're not paying much attention. With that said, that author is also clearly not paying attention. The country is firmly divided, with almost every person of any education being against the government, and most of them with the means are not living there anymore. The government has been brutal in regards to free speech and the media. They have no leg to stand on, and anyone that defends them is clearly defending communism light. Even many of the utterly impoverished chavistas are beginning to see the light.
But to take that and say, "we're not playing in that game" is absolutely false.
And I have friends selling them properties here in Panama in record numbers. Many (most?) are going to Panama. Things have gone from bad to worse (there should be a Venezuela on the precipice thread...) lately and another wave of people leaving. I don't know how much press it's getting in the US, but it's probably heading toward a very bad period in Venezuela.
Voodoochild
02-28-14, 16:25
How bad do you think things would get if the new Ukrainian govt said not only do we want a pact with the EU but we want NATO membership?
VooDoo6Actual
02-28-14, 16:26
vodoo, the guy that wrote this piece is basically a POS...
See if you agree with his assestment in Venezuela:"Desestabilización imperial: primero Ucrania, ahora Venezuela" (Imperial desestabilization: Ukraine first, now Venezuela")
http://www.globalresearch.ca/desestabilizacion-imperial-primero-ucrania-ahora-venezuela/5370109
I know he is so seriously off the mark that it cannot simply be a deluded comment, but guy has an agenda and receives money to tell fairy tales.
Just so I'm tracking w/ you here, he's a POS because you disagree w/ what he wrote ?
Have not read the Venezuela Op Ed yet but will do so later as time permits.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-calls-russian-troops-invasion/2014/02/28/e066bfc8-a0be-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html
Something to consider & give some thought before you jump on the US vs Russia planned party line as your pre-conditioned to & easily manipulated by the media's narrative is this:
If Barack Obama declared Martial Law after purposely dividing America on many levels & tiers & said he wanted the US Constitution null & void & ordered the confiscation of your guns & other BOR's etc would you back him then ? Keep in mind this same guy giving away your countries sovereignty to immigration, your taxes towards their welfare, your really think SS will be there for you ? your children's future for bigger out of control government etc. is trying to spin it after sponsoring another Coup & take away Crimea (predominately Russian) & Sevastopol (a key & salient Naval Strategic location for Russia to have access to ME (where Putin already executed a lease & has the Russian Black Sea Navy stationed at) under the guise of liberating only a portion of the country that was already divided on many issues (just as America is) by using & manipulating mostly Radicals Nazi-Neo-Cons, installing a Banker as new president (that not all of Ukraine agrees w/ no general election held yet. Be careful w/ emotional reactions & responses to a polemically charged & deliberately created crisis. This is a complex situation on many levels & it may resemble some similar dilemmas currently percolating & festering in America sub rosa....Putin will not give up Sevastopol or Crimea so regardless of whether part of Ukraine wants a faustian bargain or Parrots a narrative saying they do to appease the West's & EU's IMF's agenda w/ NATO as a protector or insurance it's going to be mess & propaganda spin fest guaranteed. Be careful looking under the microscope & judging, you might be looking at America's Petri dish as well & w/o realizing it...
BTW, I have been to Ukraine & Russia. I have no misconceptions about those people, their culture, their history, government corruptions, conditions etc. You might also look at the # of terrorists attacks regarding the caucuses region's in an effort to destabilize those areas & then think about the recent growth of DHS w/ similar stats. The agenda becomes pretty clear.
If the Ukraine, Russia and disinformation interest you then I would suggest reading this interview with Lt. Gen. Ion Pacepa (http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/02/10/an-interview-with-lt-gen-ion-pacepa-the-highest-ranking-soviet-bloc-intel-officer-to-ever-defect/), the highest ranking Soviet bloc intel officer to ever defect. Pretty interesting stuff...
The very idea that the Soviet Union was defeated is disinformation in itself. The Soviet Union changed its name and dropped its façade of Marxism, but it remained the same samoderzhaviye, the historical Russian form of autocracy in which a tsar is running the country with the help of his political police…
In 1972, during a breakfast in his office, KGB chairman Andropov told me that “our” disinformation machinery should ignite a campaign aimed at transforming Arab anti-Semitism into an anti-American doctrine for the whole Muslim world. The idea was to portray the United States as a war-mongering, Zionist country financed by Jewish money and run by a rapacious “Council of the Elders of Zion” (the KGB’s derisive epithet for the U.S. Congress), the aim of which was to transform the rest of the world into a Jewish fiefdom. Andropov made the point that one billion adversaries could cause far greater damage than could a mere 150 million.
The KGB boss described the Muslim world as a waiting petri dish, in which we could nurture a strain of hate-America. The Muslims had a taste for nationalism, jingoism and victimology. We had only to keep repeating, over and over, that the United States was a war-mongering, Zionist country financed by Jewish money, with the goal of taking over the whole world.
And John 'milketoast' Kerry, actually threatens them? Isn't it ironic that the anti-war protesters/peacenicks are now the ones making theatening overtures?
How bad do you think things would get if the new Ukrainian govt said not only do we want a pact with the EU but we want NATO membership?
I think we will be at war in less than 3 months. It will continue by proxy and then become full scale NATO involvement, which will be interesting since the major players will have nukes.
Voodoochild
02-28-14, 18:28
Link from Shooterman017.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26392958
Plumber237
02-28-14, 18:38
If the Ukraine, Russia and disinformation interest you then I would suggest reading this interview with Lt. Gen. Ion Pacepa (http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/02/10/an-interview-with-lt-gen-ion-pacepa-the-highest-ranking-soviet-bloc-intel-officer-to-ever-defect/), the highest ranking Soviet bloc intel officer to ever defect. Pretty interesting stuff...
Thanks for posting that article Irish, very informative and shocking article. I will be buying the General's book when it comes out in paperback.
Thanks for posting that article Irish, very informative and shocking article. I will be buying the General's book when it comes out in paperback.
There is a certain segment, much like the TFP forum (http://thefinalphaseforum.invisionzone.com/index.php?showforum=3), who believe that we, as Americans, have been duped by the Russians for decades. It makes for some pretty thought provoking material, if read with an open mind.
Check out JR Nyquist's website (http://www.jrnyquist.com) as well. His train definitely runs along the same tracks along with quite a few others.
Comrade Putin is probably not the person to be toying with. I see the euro trash EU being pushed by the new world order leaders and Russia and the brics wanting their new world order .Who will blink? There are many youngsters who will feel it is their patriotic duty to be the pawns for either sides respective rulers handlers. There is nothing like a big war to hide the fear of the end of the dollar as well as our plunge into socialism and corrupt governments. And what media source can be believed.
It's about to get real sporty over there. Obama is making empty threats that he won't back up, just like when he warned Syria about chemical weapons. His failure to back up his BS posturing is ironically what gave Putin the confidence to put the chess pieces in place this time around.
Yep, to both of the posts above this. Washington was just instrumental in overthrowing the duly and honestly elected and internationally recognised president of Ukraine. And just to bring up again what I posted a few days ago..
Diplomacy, Not Empty Threats, are Needed in Ukraine
By Eric Margolis
February 22, 2014
"...Besides being hypocritical, Washington’s policy towards Russia is increasingly dangerous. Have we learned nothing from the diplomatic folly that led to World War I?
The US has steadily pushed its strategic influence to Russia’s borders in the Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Central Asia. This in spite of a promise to Mikhail Gorbachev by the George Bush Sr. administration not to do so in exchange for the Kremlin allowing the peaceful collapse of the Soviet Empire.
Gorbachev kept his side of the pact; Washington did not."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/02/eric-margolis/is-the-us-trying-to-start-wwiii/
There is no reason whatsoever for Putin to trust a single word coming out of Washington, and what he does in response to Washington's deliberate and arrogant provoking is anyone's guess, but there might just be a black swan or two on the horizon.
"Can Washington overthrow three governments at the same time?"
http://www.voltairenet.org/article182295.html
montanadave
03-01-14, 07:54
I will readily confess I do not have the requisite knowledge of Russian/Ukranian history and politics to offer any informed opinion on recent events. I think some of the rhetoric being tossed around is a tad naive. Imagine if Guantanamo Bay were the U.S. navy's only base permitting access to Gulf of Mexico and the Panama Canal. What would our reaction be if those facilities were threatened?
And while I think the editorial board of the NYT is talking out their ass on this issue, it is interesting to read the diversity of opinions expressed in the reader's comments section: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/01/opinion/what-is-russias-aim-in-ukraine.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0
Bottom line is the U.S. isn't going to do shit other than flap our gums. This is Russia's backyard and it's their call. All we can do is watch and wring our hands. If Obama decides to draw a "red line" with Putin, he'd better draw it somewhere around the 20 degrees east meridian.
Live updates: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates
Latest…
4m
The Russian upper house has not yet voted on Putin’s proposal although all the speeches made so far are supportive.
17m
The upper house of the Russian parliament unanimously approved President Putin’s request to use armed forces in defence of Russians and Russian interests, anywhere in the territory of Ukraine.
36m
Summary
Putin ask for right to use armed forces in Ukraine.
Ukrainians accuse Russia of refusing dialogue.
European foreign ministers urge Russia to respect sovereignty of Ukraine and help reduce tension.
Pro-Russian demonstrations take place in Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and other towns.
Reports of Russian troops attempting to take Ukrainian bases in Crimea.
50m
Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the upper house of parliament to approve sending armed forces to Ukraine’s Crimea region, the Kremlin said in a statement on Saturday.
“In connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots, and the personnel of the armed forces of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory (in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) ... I submit a proposal on using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in the that country,” the statement said.
I will readily confess I do not have the requisite knowledge of Russian/Ukranian history and politics to offer any informed opinion on recent events. I think some of the rhetoric being tossed around is a tad naive. Imagine if Guantanamo Bay were the U.S. navy's only base permitting access to Gulf of Mexico and the Panama Canal. What would our reaction be if those facilities were threatened?
You're only halfway there. Imagine also that Cuba was a democracy, and that the president had been elected in a vote that the international community said was fair and honest. Imagine that president was open to the west and keeping it's naval base. Now imagine that the USSR was still around and they had just channeled $5 billion to opposition groups in Cuba as a means to overthrow the president who was by the majority of the people chosen in open and free elections, and that that overthrow was successful. Now also imagine that the Warsaw pact had not disintegrated but instead NATO, and for the last 15 years the Warsaw Pact has been steadily moving ever westward in Europe, and were now actively courting a receptive Canada to join.
And that only begins to paint a fuller picture.
montanadave
03-01-14, 09:14
You're only halfway there. Imagine also that Cuba was a democracy, and that the president had been elected in a vote that the international community said was fair and honest. Imagine that president was open to the west and keeping it's naval base. Now imagine that the USSR was still around and they had just channeled $5 billion to opposition groups in Cuba as a means to overthrow the president who was the majority of the people chose in open and free elections, and that that overthrow was successful. Now also imagine that the Warsaw pact had not disintegrated but instead NATO, and for the last 15 years the Warsaw Pact has been steadily moving ever westward in Europe, and were now actively courting a receptive Canada to join.
And that only begins to paint a fuller picture.
Point taken. Definitely an occasion to step back and walk a mile in the other guy's shoes.
Bottom line is the U.S. isn't going to do shit other than flap our gums. This is Russia's backyard and it's their call. All we can do is watch and wring our hands. If Obama decides to draw a "red line" with Putin, he'd better draw it somewhere around the 20 degrees east meridian.
Sounds like a perfect summary to me. Not only does Putin want to reclaim a portion of Ukraine if possible but he also would delight in exposing Obama for the weak leader he is. May sound like an odd criticism for someone in favor of staying out but a real leader of the strongest nation on earth would have been far more likely to prevent the Russian landings before they began.
Either way, regardless of the '97 charter we will almost certainly find a way to stay away unless a member of NATO is pulled directly in. It is probably worth adding though that there are benefits to having a democratic ally so close to Russia and also that by attempting to essentially influence freedom we aren't equal to some sort of expanding oppressor.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 09:46
Yep, to both of the posts above this. Washington was just instrumental in overthrowing the duly and honestly elected and internationally recognised president of Ukraine. And just to bring up again what I posted a few days ago..
There is no reason whatsoever for Putin to trust a single word coming out of Washington, and what he does in response to Washington's deliberate and arrogant provoking is anyone's guess, but there might just be a black swan or two on the horizon.
"Can Washington overthrow three governments at the same time?"
http://www.voltairenet.org/article182295.html
No, just no. First the Ukrainian Parliament ousted Yanukovich on their own. And in doing so hoped to avert the violence that was spreading before it could become a full scale civil war and international involvement was all but guaranteed (which might be the case anyway).
Second, do you think for one second Putin believes Obama is going to do anything more than give a pretty speech condemning the acts? He doesn't respect Obama, that much is certain. And Putin will do what's in his and what he feels is Russia's best interests. And if that means rolling a Motor Rifle Regiment into the Crimea despite warnings of "consequences" from the US, he'll do so and wait to see what we do.
And last but not least, the whole US influence in the region is a bit overstated. The EU and Russia exerts a whole lot more influence over the region and rightly so since it's in their back yard. But so what we made a pinky promise 20 years ago not to influence matters in the former Soviet States. I'd say the Ukrainians have done more to align themselves with the EU and the US than we have in return.
This is a game of geopolitical chess Putin is playing and unfortunately the foreign policy team of Obama is playing Connect 4. With our weak foreign policy since 2009, Putin knows there is little, if anything, this Administration is going to do. He's seen the failures to support the revolt in Egypt, the debacle in Benghazi, the continually moving red line in Syria, our weak response to Iran and last but certainly not least the failed "reset" with Russia itself. Putin is in a stare down contest with Obama right now and has no reason to blink.
Anyone else remember how the media gave Romney all kinds of hell for saying Russia was our number 1 geopolitical foe?
No, just no. First the Ukrainian Parliament ousted Yanukovich on their own. And in doing so hoped to avert the violence that was spreading before it could become a full scale civi
Violence funded, and in large part perhaps even instigated, by Washington. And the ouster was only after he left the capital, after both the "protestors" and police had spilled blood. Not before.
Second, do you think for one second Putin believes Obama is going to do anything more than give a pretty speech condemning the acts? He doesn't respect Obama, that much is certain. And Putin will do what's in his and what he feels is Russia's best interests.
There is no blame in that.
And last but not least, the whole US influence in the region is a bit overstated. The EU and Russia exerts a whole lot more influence over the region and rightly so since it's in their back yard. But so what we made a pinky promise 20 years ago not to influence matters in the former Soviet States. I'd say the Ukrainians have done more to align themselves with the EU and the US than we have in return.
"Influence"? We are talking about moving and stationing of military equipment, including missiles, right up on the boarder of Russia, and of surrounding and threatening them with a strategic military alliance. I rather think that goes more than a little beyond 'breaking a pinky promise'.
VooDoo6Actual
03-01-14, 10:14
Putin for the Win...
Well played PR statesmanship & showing solid strategy.
http://patdollard.com/2014/02/russias-hells-angels-join-crimea-invasion/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nsBG356GQc&feature=youtu.be
If the Ukraine, Russia and disinformation interest you then I would suggest reading this interview with Lt. Gen. Ion Pacepa (http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/02/10/an-interview-with-lt-gen-ion-pacepa-the-highest-ranking-soviet-bloc-intel-officer-to-ever-defect/), the highest ranking Soviet bloc intel officer to ever defect. Pretty interesting stuff...
Interesting, JR Nyquist's rebuttal to Pacepa's interview: http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2738/Nyquist-on-Pacepa-Golitsyn.aspx
Grand58742
03-01-14, 10:43
Violence funded, and in large part perhaps even instigated, by Washington. And the ouster was only after he left the capital, after both the "protestors" and police had spilled blood. Not before.
Which you base this on a singular report from that Nuland woman. And furthermore, $5 billion over 23 years? And did this money come specifically from the US Government? Furthermore, what was it spent on? Taken out of context, this 5 billion number is pretty large, but does not specify what exactly the money was spent on. Was it modernizing industry? Creating commercial ties? Updating medical facilities? Funding groups to oppose the government? Was it for buying arms?
That number is all but useless without some data behind it. But people get outraged without knowing all the facts, which is pretty typical.
There is no blame in that.
Absolutely not. Having said that to say this, Putin knows we cannot even possibly hope to exert as much influence in that area as he can. And in this game of politics, I stand on my comments that he is playing chess while our own foreign policy team bumbles around.
"Influence"? We are talking about moving and stationing of military equipment, including missiles, right up on the boarder of Russia, and of surrounding and threatening them with a strategic military alliance. I rather think that goes more than a little beyond 'breaking a pinky promise'.
Since when did we preposition military equipment inside the Ukraine? They aren't a member of NATO. The BMD Shield never came close to being deployed there. And whether or not the Ukraine wants to join NATO is on the Ukrainian people and their representatives and has zero to do with Russia. And let's face it, NATO is little more than a figurehead organization these days that can't even agree to get into a conflict with a third rate power like Libya without half their members backing out as well as having to depend on US support for it.
http://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/screen-shot-2014-03-01-at-11-32-02-am.png
Which you base this on a singular report from that Nuland woman. And furthermore, $5 billion over 23 years? And did this money come specifically from the US Government? Furthermore, what was it spent on? Taken out of context, this 5 billion number is pretty large,
It is a pretty large amount in any context involving taxpayer money being channeled to a foreign power. And if the credible reports are in fact accurate, then money was paid to "protestors" to in fact protest.
Absolutely not. Having said that to say this, Putin knows we cannot even possibly hope to exert as much influence in that area as he can. And in this game of politics, I stand on my comments that he is playing chess while our own foreign policy team bumbles around.
I would argue just the opposite. It is Obama and his gang that can't shoot strait who are the bumblers, and always have been. They are as incompetent, naive, hapless, and amateurish, in foreign policy as they are in economic policy.
Since when did we preposition military equipment inside the Ukraine? They aren't a member of NATO. The BMD Shield never came close to being deployed there.
I never stated we did, but we are putting them in Poland and there is no doubt in Putin's mind, (and I think rightfully so) that Washington wants to put them in the Ukraine as well.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 11:16
It is a pretty large amount in any context involving taxpayer money being channeled to a foreign power. And if the credible reports are in fact accurate, then money was paid to "protestors" to in fact protest.
And again, is it confirmed that this was in fact taxpayer money? Or was it a mix of foreign aid as well as commercial endeavors in the Ukraine?
And considering the foreign aid we give to other nations, $5 billion over 20+ years isn't exactly a lot of money. And again, without context and facts of what this money specifically was spent on other than articles that jump to conclusions without basis of fact the figures are useless.
So if you have data, please cite so I can educate myself.
I would argue just the opposite. It is Obama and his gang that can't shoot strait who are the bumblers, and always have been. They are as incompetent, naive, hapless, and amateurish, in foreign policy as they are in economic policy.
That's actually what I said...
I never stated we did, but we are putting them in Poland and there is no doubt in Putin's mind, (and I think rightfully so) that Washington wants to put them in the Ukraine as well.
Had plans to put them in Poland. But was scrapped in 2009 by Obama as part of the "great reset." And currently the land based Aegis system is supposed to be built by 2018. So four years from now they might be deployed to Poland, which is a lifetime in politics, and certainly not taking into account the most recent budget cuts and how they might affect that.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 11:32
I'll further add that no matter what, this is a win/win situation for Putin. If we do little more than give out words in speeches and call for UN action, we will be perceived as weak and will give the Russians carte blanche to expand their influence over the Ukraine. If we follow up words with any kind of action, Putin will be seen as countering US aggression in what is traditionally a Russian sphere of influence and it consolidates his power base in his own country. No matter what, he has us backed into a corner and anything we do, including nothing, is going to go wrong for us.
There are very few, if any, options available that allow us to get through this without egg on our face in some form or fashion.
And again, is it confirmed that this was in fact taxpayer money? Or was it a mix of foreign aid as well as commercial endeavors in the Ukraine?
Sorry, but you actually think that foreign aid is not money the government collected in taxes?
And considering the foreign aid we give to other nations, $5 billion over 20+ years isn't exactly a lot of money. And again, without context and facts of what this money specifically was spent on other than articles that jump to conclusions without basis of fact the figures are useless.
Again, sorry, but the argument from 'what's $5 billion here or there spent in part to destabilize a government, overthrow a democratically elected president, and potentially plunge a foreign nation into all out civil war with perhaps untold global consequences, all things considered' is just plain untenable.
Had plans to put them in Poland. But was scrapped in 2009 by Obama as part of the "great reset." And currently the land based Aegis system is supposed to be built by 2018. So four years from now they might be deployed to Poland, which is a lifetime in politics, and certainly not taking into account the most recent budget cuts and how they might affect that.
So in other words you do acknowledge the fact that we are actually putting ABMs in Poland, but because the system won't be built for 4 years, Putin should be perfectly fine with the idea?
Grand58742
03-01-14, 11:47
Sorry, but you actually think that foreign aid is not money the government collected in taxes?
Are you arguing just to argue? Because you did not read what I wrote in the question that "is it a mix of foreign aid and commercial investment?" Because according to the World Bank figures, we've only given about $800 million to the Ukraine in foreign aid.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/DT.ODA.ALLD.CD
Please drop the condescending attitude, it's not impressive.
Again, sorry, but the argument from 'what's $5 billion here or there spent in part to destabilize a government, overthrow a democratically elected president, and potentially plunge a foreign nation into all out civil war with perhaps untold global consequences, all things considered' is just plain untenable.
And I'll challenge you to provide facts, articles, link that this money was specifically spent to destabilize the sitting government in the Ukraine. Other than the Alex Jones fantasies, provide me proof.
So in other words you do acknowledge the fact that we are actually putting ABMs in Poland, but because the system won't be built for 4 years, Putin should be perfectly fine with the idea?
<sigh>
So in other words you do acknowledge the fact that we are actually putting ABMs in Poland, but because the system won't be built for 4 years, Putin should be perfectly fine with the idea?
While there is room to question our involvement in such endeavors you seem to be overlooking the fact that the reason nations like Poland seek such defense systems is due to their well founded fear the Russians. They often impose a threat to their neighbors so the neighbors choose to act accordingly.
Are you arguing just to argue?
Funny, I was about to ask you the same thing.
Because you did not read what I wrote in the question that "is it a mix of foreign aid and commercial investment?" Because according to the World Bank figures, we've only given about $800 million to the Ukraine in foreign aid.
No, I read it. And you seem to be saying that only about $1 billion of the $5 billion was paid by us taxpayers, according to World Bank figures.
So it wasn't taxpayer money, expect that it was, and we are not putting missiles in Poland, except that we are.
Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. I just haven't the foggiest idea as to why you are saying it.
Please drop the condescending attitude, it's not impressive.
Being hypersensitive even less.
While there is room to question our involvement in such endeavors you seem to be overlooking the fact that the reason nations like Poland seek such defense systems is due to their well founded fear the Russians. They often impose a threat to their neighbors so the neighbors choose to act accordingly.
I understand that aspect completely.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 12:30
Funny, I was about to ask you the same thing.
No, I read it. And you seem to be saying that only about $1 billion of the $5 billion was paid by us taxpayers, according to World Bank figures.
So it wasn't taxpayer money, expect that it was, and we are not putting missiles in Poland, except that we are.
Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. I just haven't the foggiest idea as to why you are saying it.
Being hypersensitive even less.
And yet again, please provide proof that we, the US Government specifically, spent $5 billion to destabilize the sitting government in the Ukraine...
I understand that aspect completely.
I figured you did, just that your overall slant seemed to imply that we're essentially the cause of the unrest when I'm not sure we can even be justifiably considered a significant factor. That's a long and complicated history they have going there between the two nations as well as the others surrounding them.
That said sure we encourage them and maybe we simply shouldn't do so, however the fact remains that the world knows America isn't likely to be supportive of Ukraine because it plans on invading Mother Russia in the next few decades.
I figured you did, just that your overall slant seemed to imply that we're essentially the cause of the unrest when I'm not sure we can even be justifiably considered a significant factor. That's a long and complicated history they have going there between the two nations as well as the others surrounding them.
Yes, complicated, with interesting parallels to 1918. I think that globally and generally the US has very, very little to do with what is going on in Ukraine, and I am curious to see if Putin is getting edgy to reinstate the satellite states for buffers.
Obama skips the national security meeting regarding the Ukraine and Russia. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-skips-national-security-team-meeting-russia-ukraine_783659.html
Russian Parliament gives Putin the green light for military action. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp&_r=0
And they're recalling their ambassador here in the States. http://news.yahoo.com/upper-house-demand-recall-moscow-ambassador-u-160038208--finance.html;_ylt=AwrBJR9bBBJTxhQAp0nQtDMD
Interesting times ahead...
montanadave
03-01-14, 15:38
Obama skips the national security meeting regarding the Ukraine and Russia. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-skips-national-security-team-meeting-russia-ukraine_783659.html
Russian Parliament gives Putin the green light for military action. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp&_r=0
And they're recalling their ambassador here in the States. http://news.yahoo.com/upper-house-demand-recall-moscow-ambassador-u-160038208--finance.html;_ylt=AwrBJR9bBBJTxhQAp0nQtDMD
Interesting times ahead...
Aren't you supposed to be outside playing with the kids? :laugh:
Aren't you supposed to be outside playing with the kids? :laugh:
Nap time for the little ones now. ;) I'm a news dork...
Per CNN, the Ukranian minister states 15K Russian troops are in the Crimea.
This isn't going to affect us one way or the other, but this will not end well for Ukraine.
Belmont31R
03-01-14, 16:07
If we did pay for protestors or fund them or not that is the line Russia is using, and blaming us for the unrest. They also cited the new govt banning the Russian language, and said the Crimean govt requested their help.
montanadave
03-01-14, 17:28
Short primer on Crimea from Foreign Policy:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/02/28/different_chapter_same_book
VooDoo6Actual
03-01-14, 17:37
If we did pay for protestors or fund them or not that is the line Russia is using, and blaming us for the unrest. They also cited the new govt banning the Russian language, and said the Crimean govt requested their help.
Russia is saying because it's true. Our Liar In Thief doesn't have a stellar or sterling reputation or track record for veracity...
"Putin aide accuses US of funding Ukraine rebels"
http://news.yahoo.com/us-press-ukraine-end-crisis-russia-bailout-warning-085422744.html
As the humiliating & embarrassing Diplomatic beatdown continues....
BREAKING UPDATE: Obama ‘Punishes’ Putin By Saying He Might Not Go To G-8 Meeting
http://patdollard.com/2014/03/update-obama-punishes-putin-by-saying-he-might-not-go-to-g-8-meeting/
Putin Laughs At His Bitch Obama’s Warning, Authorizes Invasion Of Ukraine – Parliament Moves To Recall Ambassador To U.S.
http://patdollard.com/2014/03/putin-laughs-at-his-bitch-obamas-warning-authorizes-invasion-of-ukraine-parliament-moves-to-recall-ambassador-to-u-s/
CNN Accuses Putin of 'Bullying' Obama
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/03/01/CNN-Accuses-Putin-of-Bullying-Obama
montanadave
03-01-14, 18:22
Admittedly, Obama and, by extension, the U.S. is looking completely impotent right now. But, seriously, what are our options, short of deciding we want to engage in some Cuban missile crisis style brinkmanship?
Not looking to be an apologist for this administration. I just don't see any great options.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 18:36
Admittedly, Obama and, by extension, the U.S. is looking completely impotent right now. But, seriously, what are our options, short of deciding we want to engage in some Cuban missile crisis style brinkmanship?
Not looking to be an apologist for this administration. I just don't see any great options.
Win/win for Putin. There is literally nothing we can do short of putting UN or NATO troops in the Ukraine that will matter. We played the "stop being a naughty boy Vlad or we're not going to the G-8 summit" card and informed him of potential economic and political isolation he faced.
Putin responded with:
The Russian President underlined that there are real threats to the life and health of Russian citizens and compatriots on Ukrainian territory. Vladimir Putin stressed that if violence spread further in the eastern regions of Ukraine and in Crimea, Russia reserves the right to protect its interests and those of Russian speakers living there.
Which is basically telling Obama, the entire world really, to eat a bag of dicks; this is my backyard and I'll do as I please. He's opened the door to the possibility that he will deploy military forces into Eastern Ukraine.
There is nothing we can do in this situation other than Russia backing off entirely. Which is not going to happen.
VooDoo6Actual
03-01-14, 19:16
Report: “masked men opened fire with automatic weapons close to the building of the Council of Ministers of Crimea”
http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=581456
I'm reading the above posts.
Win/win for Putin. There is literally nothing we can do short of putting UN or NATO troops in the Ukraine that will matter.
Which is basically telling Obama, the entire world really, to eat a bag of dicks; this is my backyard and I'll do as I please. *He's opened the door to the possibility that he will deploy military forces into Eastern Ukraine.
There is nothing we can do in this situation other than Russia backing off entirely. *Which is not going to happen.
Why would the US do anything in this situation we caused ?
I'm not one for interventionism of the world or intervening especially on crisis initiation we caused. I thought we were done being the World's Police, at least everyone I know is done & sick of it.
Why is any of our business. Let them work it out & stop playing onto their hand. When we have a meltdown here & we will eventually would you want other countries intervening in our business especially after our troop strength has been purposely reduced radically ?
"There is literally nothing we can do short of putting UN or NATO troops in the Ukraine that will matter"
Question: Would you want UN or NATO intervening in the US for a problem we already know is inevitably coming ?
You think things here haven't happened for a reason & it's all coincidence. Can't you see the setup yet ? Would you like Russia or China or both to intervene in the US crisis's when Barry asks them to ?
Frankly I'm surprised more people aren't citing the parallels or similarities between issues in Ukraine & the US.
Don't you get it yet ?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Mobile%20Uploads/LeonardodaVinci_zps34eda211.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/Mobile%20Uploads/LeonardodaVinci_zps34eda211.jpg.html)
Will at least no one can turn off the Gazprom anytime in the near future.
montanadave
03-01-14, 20:25
Will at least no one can turn off the Gazprom anytime in the near future.
Not sure I follow.
Grand58742
03-01-14, 21:45
Report: “masked men opened fire with automatic weapons close to the building of the Council of Ministers of Crimea”
http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=581456
I'm reading the above posts.
Why would the US do anything in this situation we caused ?
I'm not one for interventionism of the world or intervening especially on crisis initiation we caused. I thought we were done being the World's Police, at least everyone I know is done & sick of it.
Why is any of our business. Let them work it out & stop playing onto their hand. When we have a meltdown here & we will eventually would you want other countries intervening in our business especially after our troop strength has been purposely reduced radically ?
I think you misunderstand my position on this. I do not think we need to be involved at all. We have no strategic interests in the Ukraine just like we had none in Syria either. This is in particular a EU problem, however, if we are to be involved it should be as a neutral third party.
But I do not think we had anything at all to do with this contrary to this whole $5 billion question. If you are to believe what the press over there is reporting, you might as well believe the propaganda coming out of North Korea or Cuba.
Question: Would you want UN or NATO intervening in the US for a problem we already know is inevitably coming ?
You think things here haven't happened for a reason & it's all coincidence. Can't you see the setup yet ? Would you like Russia or China or both to intervene in the US crisis's when Barry asks them to ?
Frankly I'm surprised more people aren't citing the parallels or similarities between issues in Ukraine & the US.
Don't you get it yet ?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Mobile%20Uploads/LeonardodaVinci_zps34eda211.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/Mobile%20Uploads/LeonardodaVinci_zps34eda211.jpg.html)
To my knowledge, nobody in the Ukraine has asked for US or NATO intervention, so I'm not sure where you are getting the whole "if Barry asked them to." And again, we have no reason to get involved and that's been my position from the start. Unfortunately, Barry needs a foreign policy win in five years of continual losing. So I wouldn't put it past him to try and weasel his way into this somehow. He's basically been bitch slapped by Putin at every turn and has to show he can wear the big boy pants eventually else he loses complete credibility on the world stage for the remainder of his presidency.
And yes, I know of the potential "coming" as you put it. And I don't see anyone else coming to our "aid" even if specifically requested because they would end up with the same problems we have. Especially China. Russia would be more concerned with Europe and the former Soviet States to the south. And that leaves nobody else to include the Europeans which depend greatly on our own markets. So no, I cannot see the parallels between the Ukraine and us just yet. And it's not that I don't want to see, I cannot connect the dots between the two.
But I've got an open mind, give it a try.
Nevermind.
Not sure I follow.
montanadave
03-01-14, 22:29
Nevermind.
Sorry, I had been reading a couple of different pieces related to the Ukrainian gas market and I missed whatever you were referencing.
Shifting energy trends blunt Russia's natural gas weapon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/shifting-energy-trends-blunt-russias-natural-gas-weapon/2014/02/28/7d090062-9ef7-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html)
Russia's gas can blow up Ukraine tomorrow (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/28/russia-gas-ukraine_n_4876832.html)
VooDoo6Actual
03-01-14, 22:35
I think you misunderstand my position on this. I do not think we need to be involved at all. We have no strategic interests in the Ukraine just like we had none in Syria either. This is in particular a EU problem, however, if we are to be involved it should be as a neutral third party.
But I do not think we had anything at all to do with this contrary to this whole $5 billion question. If you are to believe what the press over there is reporting, you might as well believe the propaganda coming out of North Korea or Cuba.
To my knowledge, nobody in the Ukraine has asked for US or NATO intervention, so I'm not sure where you are getting the whole "if Barry asked them to." And again, we have no reason to get involved and that's been my position from the start. Unfortunately, Barry needs a foreign policy win in five years of continual losing. So I wouldn't put it past him to try and weasel his way into this somehow. He's basically been bitch slapped by Putin at every turn and has to show he can wear the big boy pants eventually else he loses complete credibility on the world stage for the remainder of his presidency.
And yes, I know of the potential "coming" as you put it. And I don't see anyone else coming to our "aid" even if specifically requested because they would end up with the same problems we have. Especially China. Russia would be more concerned with Europe and the former Soviet States to the south. And that leaves nobody else to include the Europeans which depend greatly on our own markets. So no, I cannot see the parallels between the Ukraine and us just yet. And it's not that I don't want to see, I cannot connect the dots between the two.
But I've got an open mind, give it a try.
so here's what you wrote:
Win/win for Putin. There is literally nothing we can do short of putting UN or NATO troops in the Ukraine that will matter.
Which is basically telling Obama, the entire world really, to eat a bag of dicks; this is my backyard and I'll do as I please. *He's opened the door to the possibility that he will deploy military forces into Eastern Ukraine.
There is nothing we can do in this situation other than Russia backing off entirely. *Which is not going to happen.
Not sure what's to misunderstand there as those are your words & what you wrote which is different than what your singing now.
regarding your quote: "So no, I cannot see the parallels between the Ukraine and us just yet"
I'll connect some simple dots for you since you can't see them. Should be easy now with these & actually the US has more issues if you tally the actual salient differences due partially to immigration & ethnicities / religions / gender bias which makes it even clearer.
#1 Ukraine Bankrupt US Bankrupt
#2 Ukraine is divided on traditional Russian roots, language, culture, history, religions similarly to the US in that US has traditional Patriots/Constitutionalists & now almost a split in Progressive / Democrat type ideology (make sure you add immigration to that number as well), economic class split that closing rapidly, gender issues, racial issues, clearly w/ the discussions of succession, constitutional convention, insurrection rhetoric fairly common it's fairly obvious the azimuth. So the nexus is fairly easy without acting like you can't see it.
#3 both have corrupt governments.
#4 Both have recently changed their Constitutions to reflect their recent leaderships's agendas. One wants to use a Pen & Phone the other just changed it (2004). Not sure what the difference is there yet. Both resonate like dictators. Both are/were fairly overt.
"To my knowledge, nobody in the Ukraine has asked for US or NATO intervention"
Actually, It's been discussed around the campfire quite a bit actually. As usual the cover story or controlled narrative is the whipped creme & what's under it is pure shit & a "Faustian" bargain.
Here's some to add to your inventory of knowledge.
The UN Says the Ukrainian People Must Decide their Fate, NATO wants something else
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-un-says-the-ukrainian-people-must-decide-their-fate-nato-wants-something-else/
Washington’s Dirty Game In Ukraine
http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/washingtons-dirty-game-in-ukraine/
US wants to rule Ukraine and continue their NATO encroachment against Russia- expert
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_02_11/US-wants-to-rule-Ukraine-and-continue-their-NATO-encroachment-against-Russia-expert-6967/
But, as you say if you cannot see the parallels yet then I guess you cannot connect the dots between the two.
I'll let your attempt @ a rub "But I've got an open mind, give it a try" slide, not worth the prolix.
Belmont31R
03-02-14, 00:21
Hasn't Obama given up on quite a few things like the missile defense shield in Poland? I don't think we need to get into WW3 over this but Obama's stance has been to bend over and spread his cheeks. He's given them far more than we've gotten in return due his ideological stance of knocking us down a few notches. I don't think we need boots on the ground at all but Obama has effectively put us at a far worse bargaining position. He gave up chips for nothing, and now doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Grand58742
03-02-14, 02:46
so here's what you wrote:
Not sure what's to misunderstand there as those are your words & what you wrote which is different than what your singing now.
Saying it would be the only thing that could amount to a hill of beans and supporting it are two different animals. I said back on page 4 that I agreed this wasn't our fight, so I'm not sure what I'm "singing" in regards to anything other than what I originally said. Making an observation and supporting it are two completely different principles.
So yes, you misinterpreted what I said as tacit support and nothing could be further from the truth.
I'll let your attempt @ a rub "But I've got an open mind, give it a try" slide, not worth the prolix.
No attempt at a rub and frankly, I don't care if you let it slide or not. If you believe it was sarcasm, it wasn't. You have been cryptic in several posts here as noted by others so I asked for clarification. Now on that subject, your parallels could be just about any country or government on the planet as they are that generic. Many governments have gone into default. Many are corrupt. Many are split ideologically, politically, ethnically and random other -ly's out there. So ours is no different than plenty of nations on this planet right now both past and present. There is no great connecting of the dots here.
The situation as it stands in the Ukraine right now is more similar to the Hungarian Revolt in 1956 with a tad of the Sudetenland in 1938 mixed in than it is to the current political climate of the US. We aren't facing an angry neighbor on our doorstep nor has violence broken out in our cities between government forces and the citizens. We don't have a militarily superior nation attempting to move troops into our borders to "protect their non-English speaking citizens." And we certainly don't have a President that was taken out of power by the legislature that refused to give up his power.
Yet.
VooDoo6Actual
03-02-14, 10:02
Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/kiev-edge-after-russia-oks-putins-military-intervention-plan-n41861
Emphasis on the bolded:
Kiev (Warsaw) was on edge Saturday after Russian parliament’s upper house (the German Reichstag) unanimously approved President Vladimir Putin’s (Chancellor Adolf Hitler’s) request for a military intervention in Ukraine (Poland), according to a Kremlin (Reichstag) statement.
The approval came within two hours of Putin (Hitler) appealing to parliament (the Reichstag), saying the move is needed to protect ethnic Russians (Germans) and the personnel of a Russian (German) military base in Ukraine’s (Poland’s) strategic region of Crimea (“Polish Corridor”),
The situation on the ground became even murkier when Russia (Germany) claimed that Kiev (Warsaw)-backed gunmen terrorists had attempted to take over the Crimean Interior Ministry a (German) radio station. There was no confirmation of such an action from other sources. Russia’s (Germany’s) foreign ministry said people had been wounded, but gave no details.
Fixed it, same playbook different decade...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/trainwreck_zps76f1294c.gif (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/trainwreck_zps76f1294c.gif.html)
This is bad from any angle. I can't help but think the weakness of the current administration has a lot to do with this move from Putin. He knows our community organizer will do nothing.
Obama is bluffing/playing with a really bad hand....
The Decline of Western Civilization.
30 years old and still quite topical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_6_s_LXPi8
I would pay good money to see Kerry or McCain actually tell us how they really feel (see above).
A very cogent article on the subject matter (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116810/putin-declares-war-ukraine-and-us-or-nato-wont-do-much) discussing Western analysis, logic and how it relates to the matter. Putin's War in Crimea Could Soon Spread to Eastern Ukraine And nobody—not the U.S., not NATO—can stop him.
Why is Putin doing this? Because he can. That's it, that's all you need to know...
We didn't think Putin would do this. Why, exactly? This has often puzzled me about Western analysis of Russia. It is often predicated on wholly Western logic: surely, Russia won't invade [Georgia, Ukraine, whoever's next] because war is costly and the Russian economy isn't doing well and surely Putin doesn't want another hit to an already weak ruble... "what's really in it for Russia?"—stop. Russia, or, more accurately, Putin, sees the world according to his own logic, and the logic goes like this: it is better to be feared than loved, it is better to be overly strong than to risk appearing weak, and Russia was, is, and will be an empire with an eternal appetite for expansion. And it will gather whatever spurious reasons it needs to insulate itself territorially from what it still perceives to be a large and growing NATO threat. Trying to harness Russia with our own logic just makes us miss Putin's next steps.
A very cogent article on the subject matter (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116810/putin-declares-war-ukraine-and-us-or-nato-wont-do-much) discussing Western analysis, logic and how it relates to the matter. Putin's War in Crimea Could Soon Spread to Eastern Ukraine And nobody—not the U.S., not NATO—can stop him.
Yep. Americans have always had a hard time understanding Russia. Americans tend to be very short sighted linear thinkers. Strategic thinking is not something we do well.
George S. Patton on Russia:
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.
Russia KNOWS what she wants. WORLD DOMINATION. And she is laying her plans accordingly. We, on the other hand, and England and France to a lesser extent, don't know what we want. We get less than nothing as a result. If we have to fight them, now is the time. From now on, we will get weaker and they will get stronger. Let's keep out boots polished, bayonets sharpened, and present a picture of force and strength to the Russians. This is the only language that they understand and respect. If we fail to do this, then I would like to say that we have had a victory over the Germans, and have disarmed them, but we have lost the war.
The Russians are Mongols. They are Slavs and a lot of them used to be ruled by Ancient Byzantium. From Genghis Kahn to Stalin, they have not changed. They never will, and we will never learn, at least, not until it is too late.
I am very much afraid that Europe is going Bolshevik. If it does, it may eventually spread to our country.
Patton was a freakin' genius.
Patton was a freakin' genius.
I definitely think those quotes are in line with what's happening today.
Patton may have been a genius, but he's also the asshole who ordered cavalry to attack defenseless U.S. war veterans with fixed bayonets, in Washington D.C., during the Bonus Army episode. Sorry for the slight derail...
montanadave
03-02-14, 11:20
The oft-quoted Will Rogers once quipped, “Russia is a country that no matter what you say about it, it’s true.”
Given the diversity of opinion regarding Putin, Russia's intentions in Ukraine, and the precipitating causes, I'd say Mr. Rogers wasn't too far off the mark.
RogerinTPA
03-02-14, 13:59
A very interesting report on Russia's leverages on Ukraine by Caspian Report. I feel it is spot on and on par with what Voodoo stated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNi32y1i-Ls
A few things here.
First, historically, the Ukraine is the "motherland" for all the "Rus."
In other words, it is the birthplace of Russians historically.
Second, if Europe cares so much for the pro-European folks in Ukraine, then let Britain, France and Germany take care of it.
We should sit this one out. We've done our International Policemen duties for a good long while.
This is bad from any angle. I can't help but think the weakness of the current administration has a lot to do with this move from Putin. He knows our community organizer will do nothing.
Yes, just as Hitler played the British and French in the 1930s. The movement of troops back into the Rhineland, the Anschluss Austrian annexation and the Munich Agreement over the Sudentland - all justified over historial Germanic heritage. A "lion" intimidating the weaker "fox". A bully and a bitch.
Obama is certainly not showing any sense of mastery of foreign relations. He's reacting and constantly bumbling and fumbling his way through this chess game. In this case then, Putin = Lion and Obama = Fox. Not advocating our involvement in this case - just find it interesting that obviously Putin understands this game while Obama does not.
An interesting read describes this behavior.
http://www.jrnyquist.com/lions-and-foxes.html
"What is most important, however, for the present analysis, is Pareto's observation that foxes cannot plan ahead. Their thinking is always short term thinking. In the very next chapter of his book, Burnham begins by observing that U.S. foreign policy "has seldom been deliberately directed for any length of time toward clearly defined Grand Strategic Goals." Foxes do not follow long-range plans. They do not believe such plans are effective or even possible. Their manipulations are short-term.
Other countries, however, are not led by foxes. They are often led by lions. If we look at various great nations throughout history, or if we look at Russia and China today, we will find Grand Strategy at the center of what they do. The absence of Grand Strategy is a key fact which many "experts" have not fully appreciated about the United States. America is not a country with a coherent or consistent strategy. America remains domestically focussed, even now. There is no strategic plan for America. Americans do not even have a clear idea of who their enemies are."
Cagemonkey
03-02-14, 18:55
A very interesting report on Russia's leverages on Ukraine by Caspian Report. I feel it is spot on and on par with what Voodoo stated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNi32y1i-LsGood stuff. Thanks for the info. Its not black and white as many would like to assume.
VooDoo6Actual
03-02-14, 19:16
Soviet REUnion: the Power Play Behind Putin’s Invasion of Crimea
http://sofrep.com/33526/soviet-reunion-the-power-play-behind-putins-invasion-of-crimea/
Some good info they got most of it right.
I know & served on a few contracts w/ this writer Pawel, a former GROM soldier.
His assessment is spot on. In fact some of the Berkut are actually prisoners that get a privileged / special adjudication release in turn for their service. But to deep for some who are not really that well informed but seem to think they are. NFQ.
The Future of Berkut Soldiers in Crimea and Ukraine
Read more: http://sofrep.com/33563/future-berkut-soldiers-crimea-ukraine/#ixzz2urKnvnd0
http://sofrep.com/33563/future-berkut-soldiers-crimea-ukraine/#respond
BoringGuy45
03-02-14, 20:04
The thing about Putin is that he's a Machiavellian dictator who knows how to keep both his friend and enemies at arms length. He also knows how far he can push before the other side is going to push back with all its might. The full annexation of Ukraine by Russia would lead to a full scale war between the West and Russia, with China siding with the West as well (they'd like nothing more than to see Russia taken down). Putin knows that there is no way he could go toe to toe with us if we went to all out war, and he certainly would not be able to take on NATO's combined forces. Putin is not like Kim Jong-Un, who is crazy enough to believe his own bravado that he could easily defeat the world's superpowers, nor is he an extremist who would gladly die and have his country destroyed if it meant killing just one of his enemies like al-Qaeda. As evil as he is, he's no dummy. He's not going to jeopardize his own position by going to war with countries that are more powerful and technologically advanced than his. He knows that the West has its hands tied with what's going on now, and is not going to push us to war.
I think this is going to end with Ukraine making unconditional concessions to Russia, Putin pulling troops out and waving his middle finger at the West...just like always. God, I hope I'm right.
RogerinTPA
03-02-14, 21:53
These west flowing Russian pipelines serve as leverage for a Syrian war so Saudi Arabia can build natural gas pipelines through Syria, north through Turkey, then into the EU from the south...what SA wants all along. It takes that economic/strategic leverage away from Russia, and gives the EU a choice in source selection, and an option to turn the tables on Russia by not buying their gas. Russia's economy is in the dumps anyway, and that type of power reversal would cripple russia's economy.
VooDoo6Actual
03-02-14, 22:18
These west flowing Russian pipelines serve as leverage for a Syrian war so Saudi Arabia can build natural gas pipelines through Syria, north through Turkey, then into the EU from the south...what SA wants all along. It takes that economic/strategic leverage away from Russia, and gives the EU a choice in source selection, and an option to turn the tables on Russia by not buying their gas. Russia's economy is in the dumps anyway, and that type of power reversal would cripple russia's economy.
Spot on.
Things are not going as planned. In fact, may backfire.
Some pretty interesting stuff here: I'm thinking some Hocus Pocus gong on...
French News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O-rgo6zgeY
Russian News from before:
http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=581456
You'll notice a couple things. About 20 men w/ white armbands (white armbands indicating to RU not to fire upon ?), some knowledge of SUT's, RU M-94 43mm Grenade rifle & AK74M I think, do a soft perimeter probe, bust some caps & all pile in a bus uncontested ? That Grenade rifle & AK74 is fairly exclusive to RU. Hmmm, did Putin just do a FFO on itself to justify it's occupation of Crimea ? French & Ukrainian media caught it, not a peep in US media yet.
Hmmmm... AGITPROP ?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Mobile%20Uploads/wribbon2_zps84195a58.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/Mobile%20Uploads/wribbon2_zps84195a58.jpg.html)
Memo to Obama: This Was Their Red Line!
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/2014/03/02/memo-to-obama-this-was-their-red-line/
"In 1783 the Crimea was annexed by Catherine the Great, thereby satisfying the longstanding quest of the Russian Czars for a warm-water port. In fact, over the ages Sevastopol emerged as a great naval base at the strategic tip of the Crimean peninsula, where it became home to the mighty Black Sea Fleet of the Czars and then the commissars.
For the next 171 years Crimea was an integral part of Russia—a span that exceeds the 166 years that have elapsed since California was annexed by a similar thrust of “Manifest Destiny” on this continent, thereby providing, incidentally, the United States Navy with its own warm-water port in San Diego. While no foreign forces subsequently invaded the California coasts, it was most definitely not Ukrainian and Polish riffles, artillery and blood which famously annihilated The Charge Of The Light Brigade at the Crimean city of Balaclava in 1854; they were Russians defending the homeland."
Couldn't be more appropriate.
http://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/barack_obama_never_heard_of_herjgfla.jpg
The full annexation of Ukraine by Russia would lead to a full scale war between the West and Russia, with China siding with the West as well (they'd like nothing more than to see Russia taken down).
News reports (http://news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine) contradict your assertion regarding China.
Russia has said China is largely "in agreement" over Ukraine, after other world powers condemned Moscow for sending troops into the country…
Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov discussed Ukraine by telephone with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, on Monday, and claimed they had "broadly coinciding points of view" on the situation there, according to a ministry statement.
IF anything, the Ukraine is likely to be split...
montanadave
03-03-14, 09:11
IF anything, the Ukraine is likely to be split...
Seems like Russia just snatched up one big-ass Guantanamo Bay but they may find the rent rather costly. Time, as always, will tell.
News reports (http://news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine) contradict your assertion regarding China.
Correct. Russia and China just finished up their largest joint naval exercise this past summer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/china-and-russia-in-a-display-of-unity-hold-naval-exercises.html?_r=0
Direct meetings between Putin and the Vice Chairman of China's Central Military Commission Xu Qiliang to discuss strengthening military ties...
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2013/4044ca_rus_respond_threat.html
"Putin indicated, according to Xinhua, that military cooperation plays a pivotal role in the strategic partnership between Russia and China, and he expressed the hope that the two defense ministries could improve their coordination to advance bilateral ties in the future. Xu replied that the China-Russia strategic cooperation has entered a new phase because of the efforts of both countries. Xu added that China is willing to deepen the military exchange and expand cooperation with Russia to boost bilateral ties to a new high."
And a direct effort via BRICS to replace the Petrodollar with gold. A move from the Petrodollar would crush the value of the dollar and likely trigger a massive economic collapse.
Growing alliance between Russia, China and India...
http://indrus.in/blogs/2013/10/24/why_a_russia-india-china_alliance_is_an_idea_whose_time_has_come_30345.html
"Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s interactions with Russian and Chinese leaders have opened up the enticing possibility of a brand new Eurasian alliance that could change the map of international relations.
India's economist Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is usually economical with words but nevertheless he offers clues that something is afoot in the BRICS-scape. In Moscow on Monday he thanked Russia for backing India when “our friends were few”. A day later in Beijing he said, “China is our great neighbour.”"
24104
Consider the following:
Putin is a Russian spymaster of the old school. The US has been trying to seriously influence events in Ukraine since 2004. Putin probably saw this coming and began setting up his own networks.
It is is Putin's interest to destabilize Ukraine. He then has justification to occupy Ukraine in order to protect ethnic Russians and Russian military assets.
Putin has long thought win-win-win. A stable pro-Russian govt stays pro-Russian. An unstable Ukraine is easily annexed. Win-win. The US seems incapable of thinking in these terms.
George Soros and other western powers promoted the fall of Yanukovych. They got what they wanted - so did Putin. Putin gets win-win-win.
Putin will partition the country in such a way that only the most pro-Russian parts of Eastern Ukraine fall into the Russian orbit. Putin is already granting them Russian citizenship.
The Western Powers now have to deal with a broke and broken, destabilized, chaotic Western Ukraine. Putin gave them the Tar Baby they wanted all along. While the West is dealing with the mess in Western Ukraine, Putin will continue to fortify Eastern Ukraine. Purges will take place and Eastern Ukraine will be solidly Russian in a very short time (weeks?).
And that kids is how you do it. I am not sure they are teaching this in International Affairs Dept in Columbia or Yale.
Not to mention Russia supplying most of western Europe's natgas.
He can bend those countries to his will with the turn of a valve.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
montanadave
03-03-14, 10:32
Not to mention Russia supplying most of western Europe's natgas.
He can bend those countries to his will with the turn of a valve.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
Gazprom provides about 20% of western Europe's nat gas demand. And Russian sales of oil/nat gas are one of its few sources of hard currency.
Not saying Putin doesn't have some leverage vis-a-vis energy resources, but perhaps not as influential as many assume.
RogerinTPA
03-03-14, 10:45
@ VooDoo6Actual: Perhaps one of the other ultra nationalist neo-nazi parties aligned with Russia. It makes sense to have an unaffiliated entity operate in areas where Russia can't politically. Perhaps even spetsnaz lead.
It can't be the Svoboda Party, it's aligned with the west despite having affiliates with extremist groups and has anti-semitic leanings. Many think it was key in instigating the uprising and have been offered key positions in the post government. That party has a former banker at the upper level, and may also be the main cause of selling Ukraine into IMF debt slavery through it's economic aid loans.
RogerinTPA
03-03-14, 10:58
Gazprom provides about 20% of western Europe's nat gas demand. And Russian sales of oil/nat gas are one of its few sources of hard currency.
Not saying Putin doesn't have some leverage vis-a-vis energy resources, but perhaps not as influential as many assume.
20% is relative...unless you're part of the EU not getting it. Putin has reduced oil and natural gas supplies before when Ukraine fell behind in it's payments or did something that displeased Putin. If pressed, why not extort the exact same economic pressures on the EU? Short of WWIII, Putin will do what he wants, and the west is in no position to militarily oppose him. Russia's national pride is at stake, and with Putin at the helm, nothing is off the table. The cold war is back in vogue, as it never truly ended...whether the west realizes it or not.
@ VooDoo6Actual: Perhaps one of the other ultra nationalist neo-nazi parties aligned with Russia. It makes sense to have an unaffiliated entity operate in areas where Russia can't politically. Perhaps even spetsnaz lead.
It can't be the Svoboda Party, it's aligned with the west despite having affiliates with extremist groups and has anti-semitic leanings. Many think it was key in instigating the uprising and have been offered key positions in the post government. That party has a former banker at the upper level, and may also be the main cause of selling Ukraine into IMF debt slavery through it's economic aid loans.
It was the Skinhead Ukrainian Nationalists (of various stripes) that provided the bulk of the hardcore streetfighters in Kiev. They were supported by both Western interests AND Putin. This fact has a lot of people confused because they cannot understand how Putin would actually benefit from ouster of Yanukovych and the collapse of the govt.
See my other post above:
It is is Putin's interest to destabilize Ukraine. He then has justification to occupy Ukraine in order to protect ethnic Russians and Russian military assets.
Putin has long thought win-win-win. A stable pro-Russian govt stays pro-Russian. An unstable Ukraine is easily annexed. Win-win. The US seems incapable of thinking in these terms.
What are the chances China will take this as an opportunity to finally make a quick strike at one of the disputed islands with Japan, Phillipines or Vietnam?
VooDoo6Actual
03-03-14, 12:10
@ VooDoo6Actual: Perhaps one of the other ultra nationalist neo-nazi parties aligned with Russia. It makes sense to have an unaffiliated entity operate in areas where Russia can't politically. Perhaps even spetsnaz lead.
It can't be the Svoboda Party, it's aligned with the west despite having affiliates with extremist groups and has anti-semitic leanings. Many think it was key in instigating the uprising and have been offered key positions in the post government. That party has a former banker at the upper level, and may also be the main cause of selling Ukraine into IMF debt slavery through it's economic aid loans.
Indeed, as you say it can't be Ukraine’s ultra-nationalists Svoboda party that the hubris & insouciant beaming paragon of virtue & morality McCain met w/ & offered them a "Faustian Bargain" to dance w/ the devil IMF Globalist's. I'm not buying it but it sells good to the unaware agitprop mindless zombies & media will spin it that way as it looks good in headlines. They busted some caps from their Pez dispensers & were uncontested by some of RU Vympel units in that AO. Doesn't pass the smell test is right. I'm not buying it, but it does sell to the ignorant & indolent, possibly. Hardware used, tactics looked to be more than ordinary street thugs to me. They were'nt armored up & that tells me either they knew they wouldn't be fired upon (hence white armbands) or they deliberately tried to look like Neo-Nazi's "actors" & again knew they would be uncontested. Either way, it plays to Putin's benefit.
Your comment "Perhaps one of the other ultra nationalist neo-nazi parties aligned with Russia" resonates & plays better as role players w/ Spetzie lead. Whether it's Russian National Unity (RNU), Russian National Socialist Party (RNSP) or Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR) which typically isn't as far right on the bubble as RNU are all in play as possibilities for a controlled plausible denial story line of agitprop. BTW, the RNU parties symbol is the Swastika so we're not dealing w/ extremist's too much ;-/. I do know that there is a commonality & reoccurring continual theme in the background. To date no mainstream-media including media talking media heads seem to be able to put together or seem to be acknowledging it. The Nazi's & Muslim Brotherhood's founder Hassan al-Banna were allies w/ Nazi's in WWll & Hitler used them in his SS Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th Handzar division. Interestingly & notable is the Mufti's physician's proclamation that the Grand Mufti is of Modern Arab ethnicity so the connection & exception was embraced (rationalized ;-/) into their existing Aryan ideology of race superiority. There were Soviet Muslims in the rank of the German army got attention of the second most powerful man in the Third Reich, Heinrich Himmler. The Reichsführer SS decided to recruit them into his private army, the Waffen-SS 13th Handzar division as the Grand Mufti approved the plan to raise a Turkic-Muslim SS division and give his "spiritual leadership" to influence the Muslim volunteers. So we can see a nexus between Nazi's, fascism, Neo-Nazi & MB again in the background that to most indolent types is clear as mud but those who know history smell what is percolating sub rosa. This would all play out in a Neo-Ottoman Caliphate pivot strategy imo.
In the end we may never know or we may come to learn down the road. FSB has many tricks up their sleeve & has been doing COINTELPRO w/ the best of them ;-/
Hitler's Mein Kampf sales are topping charts (Ask yourself WHY ?)
http://newsfeed.time.com/2014/01/07/why-is-hitlers-mein-kampf-topping-ebook-charts/
Here's a link (part 1 & 2) to an informative read on Muslim Brotherhood connecting Islamofacism, Hitler & Nazi ideology that is fact.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/a-brief-history-of-the-muslim-brotherhood
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/the-muslim-brotherhood-part-ii-haj-amin-al-husseini
little more on MB & 13th Handzar division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-YIYX3GWtQ
Same playbook, different decade, better weapons...
Sea change times & past the rubicon.
Have the Russian troops that have been featured prominently in the news been identified as to unit (Special Forces, Airborne, Naval Infantry, etc.)?
What are the chances China will take this as an opportunity to finally make a quick strike at one of the disputed islands with Japan, Phillipines or Vietnam?
I don't think it's very likely, as then we would have to get involved per our security treaties, with Japan and the Philippines. I'm unaware of any such agreement with Vietnam.
I look at those pictures and wonder what makes them keep fighting for the government?, do they really believe in the governments actions? I am surprised they are not deserting and joining the protesters.
I don't think joining the EU is the greatest choice, but I certainly think its much better than getting in bed with Putin.It is the "gang" they belong to. The US has squandered trillions in the middle east wars for no real gains to for the U.S. people. While Russia and China have been spending their money building their forces.
VooDoo6Actual
03-03-14, 14:43
It is the "gang" they belong to. The Socialist EU 'think NAZI" vs Communist ? It is really hard to decide which in the long run will be better. Putin is an interesting person, I am not sure what to think of him at times though. Putin is impressive in all details over Obama, Mccain and the rest of the clowns we keep on reelecting. This is a complicated issue We will blink, The middle east has raped the U.S royally,trillions of dollars wasted , resources depleted and for what? there is no profit for the Taxpayers. We are failures.
This X a gigaparsec.
Perhaps this might resonate w/ some similarities to one's view of Patriotism vs. Collectivism
The head of Ukraine's navy is a traitor or a patriot, depending which side you believe.
http://news.sky.com/story/1219877/ukraine-defection-reflects-escalating-rift
Kinda looks to me like when some were playing Chess others were playing Golf...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Mobile%20Uploads/CrimeaRiverObama_zps1afb0916.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CrimeaRiverObama_zps1afb0916.jpg.html)
RogerinTPA
03-03-14, 16:23
It was the Skinhead Ukrainian Nationalists (of various stripes) that provided the bulk of the hardcore streetfighters in Kiev. They were supported by both Western interests AND Putin. This fact has a lot of people confused because they cannot understand how Putin would actually benefit from ouster of Yanukovych and the collapse of the govt.
See my other post above:
Thanks for the info.
Indeed, as you say it can't be Ukraine’s ultra-nationalists Svoboda party that the hubris & insouciant beaming paragon of virtue & morality McCain met w/ & offered them a "Faustian Bargain" to dance w/ the devil IMF Globalist's. I'm not buying it but it sells good to the unaware agitprop mindless zombies & media will spin it that way as it looks good in headlines. They busted some caps from their Pez dispensers & were uncontested by some of RU Vympel units in that AO. Doesn't pass the smell test is right. I'm not buying it, but it does sell to the ignorant & indolent, possibly. Hardware used, tactics looked to be more than ordinary street thugs to me. They were'nt armored up & that tells me either they knew they wouldn't be fired upon (hence white armbands) or they deliberately tried to look like Neo-Nazi's "actors" & again knew they would be uncontested. Either way, it plays to Putin's benefit.
Your comment "Perhaps one of the other ultra nationalist neo-nazi parties aligned with Russia" resonates & plays better as role players w/ Spetzie lead. Whether it's Russian National Unity (RNU), Russian National Socialist Party (RNSP) or Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR) which typically isn't as far right on the bubble as RNU are all in play as possibilities for a controlled plausible denial story line of agitprop. BTW, the RNU parties symbol is the Swastika so we're not dealing w/ extremist's too much ;-/. I do know that there is a commonality & reoccurring continual theme in the background. To date no mainstream-media including media talking media heads seem to be able to put together or seem to be acknowledging it. The Nazi's & Muslim Brotherhood's founder Hassan al-Banna were allies w/ Nazi's in WWll & Hitler used them in his SS Bosnian Muslim Nazi 13th Handzar division. Interestingly & notable is the Mufti's physician's proclamation that the Grand Mufti is of Modern Arab ethnicity so the connection & exception was embraced (rationalized ;-/) into their existing Aryan ideology of race superiority. There were Soviet Muslims in the rank of the German army got attention of the second most powerful man in the Third Reich, Heinrich Himmler. The Reichsführer SS decided to recruit them into his private army, the Waffen-SS 13th Handzar division as the Grand Mufti approved the plan to raise a Turkic-Muslim SS division and give his "spiritual leadership" to influence the Muslim volunteers. So we can see a nexus between Nazi's, fascism, Neo-Nazi & MB again in the background that to most indolent types is clear as mud but those who know history smell what is percolating sub rosa. This would all play out in a Neo-Ottoman Caliphate pivot strategy imo.
In the end we may never know or we may come to learn down the road. FSB has many tricks up their sleeve & has been doing COINTELPRO w/ the best of them ;-/
Hitler's Mein Kampf sales are topping charts (Ask yourself WHY ?)
http://newsfeed.time.com/2014/01/07/why-is-hitlers-mein-kampf-topping-ebook-charts/
Here's a link (part 1 &2) to an informative read on Muslim Brotherhood connecting Islamofacism, Hitler & Nazi ideology that is fact.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/a-brief-history-of-the-muslim-brotherhood
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/the-muslim-brotherhood-part-ii-haj-amin-al-husseini
little more on MB & 13th Handzar division
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-YIYX3GWtQ
Same playbook different decade, better weapons...
Sea change times & past the rubicon.
Good read. This incident, as in many other wars, has way too many subrosa players involved, vying for power and dominance. The historic associations of these factions are incredible. Regardless of it's outcome, it will be spun to the victor's diatribe, whether the aggression is checked through politics or war. All the more reason for the US to stay out militarily and manipulate with money and let the EU, World Bank and Soros handle it. IMHO, the EU needs a reminder of what a real shooting war actually is, to knock them off their moral high horse. If lead starts being slung, the US being drawn into the fray via NATO eventually, but I would enjoy watching the EU bleed a little.
Cagemonkey
03-03-14, 19:00
More Interesting Info in regards to: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/03/03/the-rape-of-ukraine-phase-two-begins/
If we suspended trade the 5.45 ammo is not coming in after what's gone is gone correct?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Belmont31R
03-03-14, 23:48
Russian troops massing on eastern border.
Russian military vehicles spotted at Eastern and North-Eastern borders of Ukraine
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/4/7017411/&usg=ALkJrhgV2EFgd_OYWQI0XyYigPhxzLPQjw
Seems like Russia just snatched up one big-ass Guantanamo Bay but they may find the rent rather costly. Time, as always, will tell.
Actually I think Putin just occupied the Sudetenland and the ethnic Russians there couldn't be happier. The parallels are just eerie.
VooDoo6Actual
03-04-14, 01:57
More Interesting Info in regards to: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/03/03/the-rape-of-ukraine-phase-two-begins/
Thx, Good read. I consider William Engdahl a SME & think he's usually spot on. Pretty easy to see the agendas after reading stuff like this.
Strange Ukraine ‘Nationalists’
The leader of UNA-UNSO, Andriy Shkil, ten years ago became an adviser to Julia Tymoshenko. UNA-UNSO, during the US-instigated 2003-4 “Orange Revolution,” backed pro-NATO candidate Viktor Yushchenko against his pro-Russian opponent, Yanukovich. UNA-UNSO members provided security for the supporters of Yushchenko and Julia Tymoshenko on Independence Square in Kiev in 2003-4.[4]
UNA-UNSO is also reported to have close ties to the German National Democratic Party (NDP). [5]
Ever since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 the crack-para-military UNA-UNSO members have been behind every revolt against Russian influence. The one connecting thread in their violent campaigns is always anti-Russia. The organization, according to veteran US intelligence sources, is part of a secret NATO “Gladio” organization, and not a Ukraine nationalist group as portrayed in western media. [6]
According to these sources, UNA-UNSO have been involved (confirmed officially) in the Lithuanian events in the Winter of 1991, the Soviet Coup d’etat in Summer 1991, the war for the Pridnister Republic 1992, the anti-Moscow Abkhazia War 1993, the Chechen War, the US-organized Kosovo Campaign Against the Serbs, and the August 8 2008 war in Georgia. According to these reports, UNA-UNSO para-military have been involved in every NATO dirty war in the post-cold war period, always fighting on behalf of NATO. “These people are the dangerous mercenaries used all over the world to fight NATO’s dirty war, and to frame Russia because this group pretends to be Russian special forces. THESE ARE THE BAD GUYS, forget about the window dressing nationalists, these are the men behind the sniper rifles,” these sources insist. [7]
If true that UNA-UNSO is not “Ukrainian” opposition, but rather a highly secret NATO force using Ukraine as base, it would suggest that the EU peace compromise with the moderates was likely sabotaged by the one major player excluded from the Kiev 21 February diplomatic talks—Victoria Nuland’s State Department.[8] Both Nuland and right-wing Republican US Senator John McCain have had contact with the leader of the Ukrainian opposition Svoboda Party, whose leader is openly anti-semitic and defends the deeds of a World War II Ukrainian SS-Galicia Division head.[9] The party was registered in 1995, initially calling itself the “Social National Party of Ukraine” and using a swastika style logo. Svoboda is the electoral front for neo-nazi organizations in Ukraine such as UNA-UNSO.[10]
One further indication that Nuland’s hand is shaping latest Ukraine events is the fact that the new Ukrainian Parliament is expected to nominate Nuland’s choice, Arseny Yatsenyuk, from Tymoshenko’s party, to be interim head of the new Cabinet.
Whatever the final truth, clear is that Washington has prepared a new economic rape of Ukraine using its control over the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
IMF plunder of Ukraine Crown Jewels
Now that the “opposition” has driven a duly-elected president into exile somewhere unknown, and dissolved the national riot police, Berkut, Washington has demanded that Ukraine submit to onerous IMF conditionalities.
In negotiations last October, the IMF demanded that Ukraine double prices for gas and electricity to industry and homes, that they lift a ban on private sale of Ukraine’s rich agriculture lands, make a major overhaul of their economic holdings, devalue the currency, slash state funds for school children and the elderly to “balance the budget.” In return Ukraine would get a paltry $4 billion.
Before the ouster of the Moscow-leaning Yanukovich government last week, Moscow was prepared to buy some $15 billion of Ukraine debt and to slash its gas prices by fully one-third. Now, understandably, Russia is unlikely to give that support. The economic cooperation between Ukraine and Moscow was something Washington was determined to sabotage at all costs. This drama is far from over. The stakes involve the very future of Russia, the EU-Russian relations, and the global power of Washington, or at least that faction in Washington that sees further wars as the prime instrument of policy.
I was researching a video on CNN GPS recently where Kissinger admits they want to implement a regime change in Russia & this focuses on that all telling cryptic agenda. I thought to myself "are you nuts" & then I remembered who the interview was with.
This should be interesting if true:
Pro-Russian Authorities To Cut Off Power, Water To Ukrainian Soldiers
http://patdollard.com/2014/03/pro-russian-authorities-to-cut-off-power-water-to-ukrainian-soldiers/
Crimean authorities to cut power, water to Ukrainian troops: Russian ex-lawmaker
http://news.yahoo.com/crimean-authorities-cut-power-water-ukrainian-troops-russian-222623578.html;_ylt=AwrBJR_nAxVT7A4Akd3QtDMD
platoonDaddy
03-04-14, 05:26
http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/obamaSaidThereWillBeCosts_zps46bb3554.jpg (http://s933.photobucket.com/user/slickville/media/obamaSaidThereWillBeCosts_zps46bb3554.jpg.html)http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad176/slickville/prezInPink_zps1dd2516b.jpg (http://s933.photobucket.com/user/slickville/media/prezInPink_zps1dd2516b.jpg.html)
Watching BBC. Interesting airport scene. Wonder how this will turn out.
From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10673779/The-maps-which-explain-the-Ukraine-crisis.html
The maps which explain the Ukraine crisis
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2014/February/images/map_military.jpg
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2014/February/images/map_pipeline.png
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/html/Years/2014/February/images/map_ukraineethnic.jpg
Of course numbers don't ever tell the whole story.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572149/Stunning-images-huge-abandoned-tank-graveyard-Ukraine-machines-come-retirement-tensions-Russia-continue-escalate.html
http://i.imgur.com/6mmpU1f.jpg
I'm not sure if this map is any more or less accurate.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/02/Ukraine%20west%20v%20east.jpg
Watching BBC. Interesting airport scene. Wonder how this will turn out.
Things may be getting sporty.
Russia fires its first shots in Crimea as soldiers warn off unarmed Ukrainian troops advancing on occupied airfield to demand their jobs back
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572777/Russian-troops-fire-warning-shots-unarmed-Ukrainian-soldiers-demanded-jobs-run-airfield-Moscow-sends-naval-landing-ship-Crimea.html
Ukraine latest official census, 2001, reported source of all the graphs above:
http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/
"The part of Ukrainians in the national structure of population of region is the largest. it accounts for 3.754.700 people. or 77.8% of the population. During the years that have passed since the census of the population ‘1989. the number of Ukrainians has increased by 0.3% and their part among other citizens of Ukraine has increased by 5.1 percentage points.
Russians are the second numerous nation of Ukraine. Since 1989 their number has decreased by 26.6% and at the date of the census it accounted for 8.334.100 people. The part of Russians in total population has decreased by 4.8 percentage points and accounted for 17.3%."
So much for "aprox. 50% of the population is russian" bla, blaaah...
Linguistic compostion:
http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/language/
" The part of those whose mother tongue is Ukrainian totals 67.5% of the population of Ukraine, this is by 2.8 percentage points more than in 1989. The percentage of those whose mother tongue is Russian totals 29.6% of the population. Comparatively with the data of previous census this index has decreased by 3.2 percentage points. The part of other languages, specified like mother tongue, during the period that have passed since previous census has increased by 0.4 percentage points and accounts for 2.9%."
If we suspended trade the 5.45 ammo is not coming in after what's gone is gone correct?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That would be my guess, If you haven't already I'd suggest stocking up now while you can. If the Gov't stops ammo importation (and I doubt Obumbo would pass this up) It'll likely be a couple years before any domestic manufacturer steps up to the plate, and starts production here. This is why I shied away from Soviet style weapons, ammo was always just the stroke of a pen away from becoming very difficult to find...
VooDoo6Actual
03-04-14, 08:53
Thanks for the info.
Good read. This incident, as in many other wars, has way too many subrosa players involved, vying for power and dominance. The historic associations of these factions are incredible. Regardless of it's outcome, it will be spun to the victor's diatribe, whether the aggression is checked through politics or war. All the more reason for the US to stay out militarily and manipulate with money and let the EU, World Bank and Soros handle it. IMHO, the EU needs a reminder of what a real shooting war actually is, to knock them off their moral high horse. If lead starts being slung, the US being drawn into the fray via NATO eventually, but I would enjoy watching the EU bleed a little.
100% agreed.
For me, that would be understatement of the Millenium.
Their subrosa game, manipulations, playing God w/ Geoengineering on a planetary scale, Wars in the name of righteous narratives & ideologies while seriptitiously manipulating wars being waged for imperialist hegemony, many good men lost & families ruined, children's dreams shattered for their agenda makes me want them to bleed more than a little.
Here's an interesting OP ED I came across & notice that he separates the essence of the strategy succinctly w/ clarity. See any similarities to what we are seeing in the USA ?
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-us-hypocrisy-russia-758/
"As divisions deepen between the eastern and western regions of Ukraine, the backers of the putsch regime in Kiev portray Russia as a reckless aggressor to absolve their own responsibility for engineering the crisis."
Same playbook, different Continent...
Every Saint has a past & Sinner has a future.
Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't know....
In other news I think France just surrendered....
montanadave
03-04-14, 09:25
In other news I think France just surrendered....
That's not really news.
That's not really news.
To Russia?
VooDoo6Actual
03-04-14, 10:25
Largest Oil Refinery in Europe is on Fire
http://englishrussia.com/2014/03/03/largest-oil-refinery-in-europe-is-on-fire
Fire @ Refinery video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usP4Ku1mkzk
Shadow paws over Ukraine.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstbcaptain.livejournal.com%2F81805.html
Doesn't pass the smell test for me yet.
Maybe a slight side topic, but for some reason it really sticks in my mind: the Russian troops wearing no identifying patches on their uniforms. Reports are consistent:
"Earlier armed men in unmarked uniforms occupied key transportation hubs in the Crimea on Friday, in what the Ukrainian government denounced as an “armed intervention” by Russian troops."
Men in unmarked camouflage uniforms occupied two airports and blocked the road between Simferopol and Sevastopol before dawn, while a Russian warship was reported to have blockaded the entrance to the bay at Balaklava, the home of the Ukrainian coast guard."
And so it goes and I have seen the vids and pics showing large groups of armed men in full uniform and unmarked uniforms. I'm surprised that's not getting more traction and discussion. As I understand it, these are not small units of say SOF, but fairly large groups. What does that say of Russian intent and strategy? Is it not against Geneva Convention, or other conventions having troops wearing unmarked uniforms?
Something about this seems a key issue to me, but I'm not exactly sure how. If for example the local troops had opened up on them claiming they couldn't identify them, who could blame them?
Thoughts? Making a big deal of a minor detail?
Belmont31R
03-04-14, 10:47
We've had troops out of uniform conducting combat missions.
We've had troops out of uniform conducting combat missions.
In large numbers beyond say SOF units? Any modern examples? It's not an issue for any international agreements/conventions?
Is there a reason to not just give the crimea to russia?
It seems more russian than ukranian anyways...
I understand the gas thing, but it does not seem to run through there. I can see how russia is worried about its warm water port, and its ethinic population. Would it be simple to just let them go their own ways?
Different subject but same concept, I don't understand why we didn't let Iraq split along ethnic lines either.
Belmont31R
03-04-14, 11:20
In large numbers beyond say SOF units? Any modern examples? It's not an issue for any international agreements/conventions?
I believe insignia is not required but there are provisions for special insignia like the Red Cross.
I think the Russians think pulling their patches off just gives them a talking point about being there to help, and not invading per se.
Is there a reason to not just give the crimea to russia?
It seems more russian than ukranian anyways...
I understand the gas thing, but it does not seem to run through there. I can see how russia is worried about its warm water port, and its ethinic population. Would it be simple to just let them go their own ways?
Different subject but same concept, I don't understand why we didn't let Iraq split along ethnic lines either.
George Soros doesn't want the Russians to have the Crimea, so our government and the EU (as functionaries for Soros) will protest that. Putin understands his history and knows that the Crimea was bought with Russian blood during the 19th century. Obama and his lot will do what Soros will tell him and that is to benefit the interests of Soros. I think Putin knows this as well.
montanadave
03-04-14, 11:27
Good piece from Foreign Policy's website articulating the miscalculations which stem from the confusion between a given country's military and economic power versus another country's national and security interests: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/03/no_contest_ukraine_obama_putin
A short excerpt:
There's plenty of room for finger-pointing and blame casting here, but the taproot of the debacle in Ukraine was a failure to distinguish between power and interests. Power is a useful thing to have in international politics, but any serious student of foreign policy knows that the stronger side does not always win. If it did, the United States would have won in Vietnam, would have persuaded India, Pakistan, and North Korea not to test nuclear weapons, and would have Afghan President Hamid Karzai dancing to our tune. In the real world, however, weaker states often care more about the outcome than stronger states do and are therefore willing to run more risks and incur larger costs to get what they want.
The condensed version: Despite the overwhelming advantage possessed by the United States over Russia in almost every metric, Russia's interests in Crimea and Ukraine dwarf the interests of the U.S. Thus, Putin (and Russia) are willing to take much greater risks in pursuing their goals then we are willing to take in thwarting those same efforts.
For the U.S., the juice just ain't worth the squeeze. For Putin, it is.
Belmont31R
03-04-14, 11:28
Is there a reason to not just give the crimea to russia?
It seems more russian than ukranian anyways...
I understand the gas thing, but it does not seem to run through there. I can see how russia is worried about its warm water port, and its ethinic population. Would it be simple to just let them go their own ways?
Different subject but same concept, I don't understand why we didn't let Iraq split along ethnic lines either.
That's ignoring the history of it, and just because the area today is majority ethnic Russians doesn't mean much. Part of why its majority Russian is because of Stalin deporting ethnic Turks and importing Russians to work there. Eastern Ukraine has natural resources, warm water ports, and factories.
It's like giving So Cal back to Mexico because there's a lot of ethnic Hispanics and Spanish speakers there. Then Mexico hurriedly issuing passports to ethnic Hispanics and invading San Diego to protect their [new] citizens. Russia did the same thing with Georgia and issuing passports so they can claim they are protecting their citizens. All bunk and if Ukraine was so hostile towards ethnic Russians maybe they should have gone back to Russia. Not like there was a mass exodus to the border after the president was ousted and fled. The law the new gov passed was to not allow provinces to make Russian their official language. Hardly a physical security issue.
I believe insignia is not required but there are provisions for special insignia like the Red Cross.
I think the Russians think pulling their patches off just gives them a talking point about being there to help, and not invading per se.
Insignia for say unit or branch maybe not, but not even an identity of the country you're from?
UPDATE: Supposedly Putin denies they are from Russia and says they are local forces loyal to Russia, so some sort of trickery is under foot, plausible deniability, etc is happening here.
Is there a reason to not just give the crimea to russia?
It seems more russian than ukranian anyways...
I understand the gas thing, but it does not seem to run through there. I can see how russia is worried about its warm water port, and its ethinic population. Would it be simple to just let them go their own ways?
Different subject but same concept, I don't understand why we didn't let Iraq split along ethnic lines either.
The same could be said for some parts of good 'ol USA, or perhaps in 15-20 years. Just give it back to Mexico...
The same could be said for some parts of good 'ol USA, or perhaps in 15-20 years. Just give it back to Mexico...
Not to derail the topic too much, but that is the Aztlán theory. Unify the "ancestral" homes of the Aztecs.
There are some parallels. In the case of Aztlán, this territory was won by the U.S. from Mexico and then ceded by treaty. Giving back conquered territory would lead to some bitterness in history.
With the Ukraine and Crimea, the Treaty of Paris gave the Crimea to Russia after the Crimean war. Even though the battles weren't decisive for Russia in the Crimea and it was a Pyrrhic victory if anything for the Romanovs, the net result is that the territory was "conquered" by them. Fast forward through a century and a half of conflicts, new treaties, etc. and you have a complex mess where Russia still maintains claims on the Crimea. Russian nationalism is resurgent with Putin, and that is the context for claims.
If someone more foolish than Obama (that is a real stretch, I know) gave the area that encompasses Aztlán back to Mexico or the U.S. was forced to cede it as a result of some treaty from another conflict, there would be unresolved claims on the territory when U.S. nationalism resurged again. Yes, Stalin did try to manipulate the ethnic lines of nearly all of the Soviet territory to "Russianize" it, but the history is more complicated than that.
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