View Full Version : in market for new handgun help me decide
Corey08Cummins
02-19-14, 09:59
Hey guys/gals new to the forum here. but Im in the market for handgun more or less for a home defense weapon. I've always been a glock guy already have 2 g19s and a g23 so Im looking for something a little different I have a few pistols in mind all in 9mm I will list them below in no particular order please give me any input on them.
1: FNH FNS-9. 17+1 rounds $550+/-
2: CZ P07 Duty 15+1 rounds $450+/-
3: Walther PPQ. 15+1 rounds $550+/-
4: SIG Sauer p250 15+1 rounds $500+/-
I'm kind of leaning toward the FNH FNS-9 but still cant make up my mind.
Thanks for any input
Corey
One question that I would like to know the answer to: have you shot any of them yet?
Corey08Cummins
02-19-14, 10:19
negative. no where to rent any weapons around where I live
my local shop only has the fns-9
Out of that list the FN would be my choice. I had a P07 duty for awhile but sold it for a P01. I'm a big CZ fan but accessories are very rare. Can't find holsters for shit.
I vote M&P9 if you would consider it lol.
MiamiCracker
02-19-14, 10:44
I have a PPQ. It's a great gun, very accurate. My only gripe is it need Talon Grips or some similar grip tape for when your hand get sweaty.
Out of your list, I'd go with the PPQ.. I'm assuming the one you looked at was the M2,(button mag release) I personally have a M1, (lever release) and prefer that, But that's me.. While I haven't shot mine lately,(been spending time learning a P-30 w/LEM) It's been reliable and very accurate, Holsters, and mags are getting alot easier to find, and Trijicon has a set of HD's out for the PPQ, and decent sights are about all the PPQ needs.. The PPQ probably has the best trigger you'll ever find in a polymer framed handgun.
Corey08Cummins
02-19-14, 10:53
Out of your list, I'd go with the PPQ.. I'm assuming the one you looked at was the M2,(button mag release) I personally have a M1, (lever release) and prefer that, But that's me.. While I haven't shot mine lately,(been spending time learning a P-30 w/LEM) It's been reliable and very accurate, Holsters, and mags are getting alot easier to find, and Trijicon has a set of HD's out for the PPQ, and decent sights are about all the PPQ needs.. The PPQ probably has the best trigger you'll ever find in a polymer framed handgun.
yes I looked at an m2 I wanted to stay with the same type of mag release I am used to
Out of that list I would go with the FN, but mostly because I've had an interest in the pistol, but have not yet made the leap.
Now thaat the accuracy issues have been addressed for a while, I second the M&P 9 recomendation. Did you rule this out for any reason?
The Walther would be my pick of your list but....
I LOVE the M&P platform;
Excellent ergonomics
Extemely reliable
Very common
Tons of aftermarket parts, support and holsters
-Sights, triggers and components, mag pouches, etc
Easy to get magazines (now at least)
Multiple versions available
Great customer service
Traditional rifling (nice if you want ot shoot lead reloads)
Made in the USA
Option for a thumbsafety that is easily removable if you dont want it
Easy to work on
I feel, now that the 9mm accuracy issues are resolved, it is the "better Glock"
BTW, Their 45 if the best on the market IMHO...super accurate and reliable. Mine is a 2" gun at 25 yards and I have ~3500 rounds without a malfunction. I even got 10 magazines includiing two 14 rds for $22 each 16 months ago
warpedcamshaft
02-19-14, 18:54
My first question would be:
Have you taken a handgun training course led by a professional and well-respected instructor? If you have not, I'd use the money to go take at least one pistol specific course.
If you have taken a course and are confident in your abilities with a handgun:
Don't buy the Sig p250... not a good choice.
The Walther PPQ is the best on that list from my point of view.
It is a pretty amazing handgun, and I feel that it has characteristics that set it apart from all other polymer handguns I've spent time with.
If you just want something new to play with... The PPQ would be great.
Phillygunguy
02-19-14, 18:57
Get the PPQ m2 and call it a day already Im a glock guy I got a PPQ no regreats
Of the four the PPQ is the only one I've owned and shot. It's a fantastic pistol.
I have fired all except the CZ and I would say get the PPQ.
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Price out at least 5 mags and a holster and mag pouch for the postol your interested in. Take note of how easy or hard it is to find this stuff. For the PPQ it sounds like new sights are all but mandatory ....so price that out as well.
Hey guys/gals new to the forum here. Welcome! but Im in the market for handgun more or less for a home defense weapon. do you have an AR-15 type rifle? I've always been a glock guy already have 2 g19s and a g23 so Im looking for something a little different I have a few pistols in mind all in 9mm I will list them below in no particular order please give me any input on them.
1: FNH FNS-9. 17+1 rounds $550+/-
2: CZ P07 Duty 15+1 rounds $450+/-
3: Walther PPQ. 15+1 rounds $550+/-
4: SIG Sauer p250 15+1 rounds $500+/-
I'm kind of leaning toward the FNH FNS-9 but still cant make up my mind.
Thanks for any input
Corey
Me in red.
Why do you want something different? I'd probably get a g17 or put the $ into one of my 19s as an HD/uspsa gun, and more ammo... maybe a class. That's just me though, and I'm boring.
You basically have 3 of the same gun. If you don't compete, Id sell the 23. You could try an RDS on a 19.
I've not owned any of those firearms but I've shot the PPQ and it's amazing. I'd probably own one if the mags weren't so pricey or if HK's weren't higher on my list. That being said I love my M&P's.
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I just rid of my Glock 19, have an M&P that I'm kind of "ho hum" about, and just bought my second PPQ. I'd say Walther PPQ all day long.
Ive shot the FNS and the PPQ. I still own Glock 19's and a 17. For me I wanted to standardize on a platform and get training on just one platform to get fully acquainted with it. I would personally say spend the money on ammo and training or an RMR.
If you absolutely have to have something new, I would opt for the PPQ out of that list as it had the best trigger feel to me. I Wwas able to have very accurate hits and good follow ups with the PPQ. Just my 2¢......
PPQ (M1 if possible) if you're sticking to the "different" idea. If it were me, I'd buy a G17 to compliment your existing Glocks.
I'll jump on the walther bandwagon here as well. I'm 400 rounds into and it is by far the best handgun I have owned.
The only downside is that it "feels" snappier than my 9mm glocks. I think the grip is just a tad too smooth. I'm hoping it may be fixed by some talon grips.
I have some Trijicon HDs as well as a few holsters.
Corey08Cummins
02-20-14, 00:06
I agree with all about the classes. where I live there is nothing like this(that I know of) I would have to travel a minimum of 4 hours to find one with my work scheduling its not that easy. I haven't ruled out the m&p I like the feel of it in my hand. i think you guys have made me second guess my choices I may have to go with an m&p yall really got me thinking now
I wouldn't choose any of those. I started with an XD40 service and loved it, it's also got ambidextrous controls and chamber loaded/cocked indicators if that's what you're into. I eventually went towards the Glock 22.
If you want a 9mm, you won't go wrong with a Glock 17 or 19 if you have smaller hands.
I haven't shot either, but from your list Iwould go FNS then PPQ. Thats just my preferences though.
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Corey08Cummins
02-20-14, 00:16
I wouldn't choose any of those. I started with an XD40 service and loved it, it's also got ambidextrous controls and chamber loaded/cocked indicators if that's what you're into. I eventually went towards the Glock 22.
If you want a 9mm, you won't go wrong with a Glock 17 or 19 if you have smaller hands.
I also started with a xd40 that's a big negative on xds not for me
warpedcamshaft
02-20-14, 01:08
I agree with all about the classes. where I live there is nothing like this(that I know of) I would have to travel a minimum of 4 hours to find one with my work scheduling its not that easy. I haven't ruled out the m&p I like the feel of it in my hand. i think you guys have made me second guess my choices I may have to go with an m&p yall really got me thinking now
I drove 25 hours to get to my first real handgun course... and it was absolutely worth it.
Stop with the excuses... and get trained.
Where do you live? We can probably help find a good class for you over a weekend.
warpedcamshaft
02-20-14, 01:16
Your profile says Virginia:
Kyle Defoor 2-Day Handgun Class - July 19-20, 2014 – South Hill, VA
Corey08Cummins
02-20-14, 01:34
Yes Pounding Mill Virginia
I'm a big fan of the PPQ so that's what gets my vote.
Price out at least 5 mags and a holster and mag pouch for the postol your interested in. Take note of how easy or hard it is to find this stuff. For the PPQ it sounds like new sights are all but mandatory ....so price that out as well.
New sights for ANY pistol are all but mandatory.......Glock, S&W,HK, Walther, all come with shitty sights...The only difference is, some are slightly less shitty than others..
DontCome2MyHouse
02-20-14, 08:57
I sold my G19 for a PPQ. Best pistol I've ever owned. No regrets.
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Corey08Cummins
02-20-14, 10:11
I found "practical firearms training" in Alderson, WV. that's closer to me anyone ever heard of them?
New sights for ANY pistol are all but mandatory.......Glock, S&W,HK, Walther, all come with shitty sights...The only difference is, some are slightly less shitty than others..
SW sights for the m&p are at least made of steel. That being said I replaced them on both my M&P's just because there are better options. Plastic sights are far more unacceptable.
I haven't ruled out the m&p I like the feel of it in my hand. i think you guys have made me second guess my choices I may have to go with an m&p yall really got me thinking now
I've had my M&P for a couple of years. Once I got the trigger functional with an Apex DCAEK and the barrel replaced with a hand-fitted Storm Lake barrel, it's worked out just fine. Ho hum.
St.Michael
02-26-14, 16:27
FN or CZ.
From your list, Walther PPQ hands down. Outside your list, H&K P30.
Bearded_Brometheus
02-26-14, 17:37
PPQ all day.
St.Michael
02-27-14, 15:11
My pops has a CZ Tactical I believe it's called? It has one of the single best triggers I have ever fired on it. Compared to his S&W Custom Shop 1911 I would say there isn't much difference between the two. Everyone seems to love Czs too. They are like the cheap bastard brother cast in the shadows
There is a big difference between the Sp01 tactical and any metal frame CZ compared to the P07. Although the P09 is available now and will accept Cajun Gunworks parts. That would be a solid option.
I found "practical firearms training" in Alderson, WV. that's closer to me anyone ever heard of them?
That's Pat Goodale's company. Not only does he have an outstanding reputation, he hosts high quality instructors. You can't go wrong with PFT.
My pops has a CZ Tactical I believe it's called? It has one of the single best triggers I have ever fired on it. Compared to his S&W Custom Shop 1911 I would say there isn't much difference between the two. Everyone seems to love Czs too. They are like the cheap bastard brother cast in the shadows
Hopefully CZs have improved in the last 5 years. I had a CZ fetish from 2004-2008, and now they are all sold. I had a SP-01, a 75b, a P-01, a Rami, and a 97b. I tried to make them work for me because they had excellent ergos and were accurate, but their mechanical problems were too much to deal with. At that time I was processing a lot of ammo at the range, and averaged between 3,000-7,000 rounds on each gun. Each gun broke 1-2 trigger springs, most broke at least one slide stop, two extractors, and the 97b broke two barrel bushings. I also experienced reliability problems with all the models.....but especially the 97b in .45acp. It's kind of a clue when the competition CZs come with 5 slide stops and 3 trigger springs. I also wasn't a fan of the thin slide serrations that make for a less than reliable grip surface during high stress shooting. Todd Green had a good write-up on them:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218
They have changed the slide stop and the trigger return springs and seem to have solved the issue. I have 10k or so through a Shadow Custom with no problems only need to replace mag springs really bad. Since my mag springs went to crap I have been shooting my CGW P01 for several thousand rounds again without a problem. I will tell you the decocker guns are like a PITA if you let the sear housing fall apart. Lots of parts and springs that go like a jack in the box lol.
brushy bill
02-27-14, 19:44
Another Glock, mags, and/or ammo. Why complicate your logistics when you don't have to?
I had a Cz and really liked it. I used to brag about the Sao trigger I put in and smoothed out- felt very nice, but if I'm honest with myself, I didn't shoot it any better than my stock m&p. fwiw, both are/were .40 cal.
walkin' trails
02-28-14, 06:26
Have you considered a Sig P226 instead of the 250? The 226 is a classic in it's own right and a very capable performer.
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Sig P250 is my vote, you could get one in 45ACP if you like:cool:
DeviousMind
02-28-14, 09:33
Another vote for the PPQ. The best handgun purchase I have made. I love the trigger and it's a tac driver. It is kinda hard to find mags and they are a little pricey but for me it was worth the hassle.
Crow Hunter
02-28-14, 10:09
And now for something completely different:
If you want to really improve your shooting. Get a good quality DA revolver and don't cheat by thumbing back the hammer.
Or if you just can't stand the idea of a revolver and/or don't want to get .38 ammo, get a good quality DA auto and learn to shoot it well. Something like a Beretta 92 or a Sig 226.
When you get decent with the DA trigger, you will find that you shoot other guns even better.
teutonicpolymer
02-28-14, 12:12
And now for something completely different:
If you want to really improve your shooting. Get a good quality DA revolver and don't cheat by thumbing back the hammer.
Or if you just can't stand the idea of a revolver and/or don't want to get .38 ammo, get a good quality DA auto and learn to shoot it well. Something like a Beretta 92 or a Sig 226.
When you get decent with the DA trigger, you will find that you shoot other guns even better.
I honestly believe that most stock DA/SA or DA automatic pulls are worse than decent stock revolver DA/SA or DA pulls
I love revolvers but I have definitely moved away from them because the advantages are just not significant or not there versus automatics
Now if you want the most accurate practical handgun (I say this to exclude stuff like the single shot large caliber pistols) then a revolver is basically impossible to beat, especially for the money.
Hopefully CZs have improved in the last 5 years. I had a CZ fetish from 2004-2008, and now they are all sold. I had a SP-01, a 75b, a P-01, a Rami, and a 97b. I tried to make them work for me because they had excellent ergos and were accurate, but their mechanical problems were too much to deal with. At that time I was processing a lot of ammo at the range, and averaged between 3,000-7,000 rounds on each gun. Each gun broke 1-2 trigger springs, most broke at least one slide stop, two extractors, and the 97b broke two barrel bushings. I also experienced reliability problems with all the models.....but especially the 97b in .45acp. It's kind of a clue when the competition CZs come with 5 slide stops and 3 trigger springs. I also wasn't a fan of the thin slide serrations that make for a less than reliable grip surface during high stress shooting. Todd Green had a good write-up on them:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218
This is some honesty right here. I've never seen anyone run a CZ for very long in competition. They fall apart in short order and are never more than junk. I rate 'em right up there with 2011s. A toy.
teutonicpolymer
02-28-14, 13:40
This is some honesty right here. I've never seen anyone run a CZ for very long in competition. They fall apart in short order and are never more than junk. I rate 'em right up there with 2011s. A toy.
Dismissing them as junk is a little unfair and saying that they are not run for very long is completely untrue... They (and 2011s) may require significant maintenance but there is a reason that the cz75 and its clones (as well as the 2011) appear at the top of the scoreboards for production (while 2011s sit at the top for limited and open)
TurretGunner
02-28-14, 16:05
For 9MM, glocks rule. There is no better choice on the market.
M&P's have their own set of headaches and any gun that requires a $100+ trigger to be usable out of the gate is not worth it. Mags are also expensive and hard to find at times
Sigs quality has gone to shit over the years and they are still a heavy, high bore axis gun. Not worth it
XD's are junk. Don't really need to say anything else.
PPQ's are OK. I don't see why people rave them, I shot one and the trigger was not that impressive. Hard to find parts keep it out of the running.
P30/USP9. Great guns but they offer nothing over a glock, at twice the price. For .45's no one comes close to HK... and their 9's are not as reliable/robust as their .45's (vast majority of HK warranty work is on their non .45 guns)
FNS - Not impressed. Rented one last week at the range and reminded me of a plastic Sig. High Bore axis, heavy recoil (flippy) and shitty trigger. I would rather have a FNX/FNP than the FNS. Still offers nothing that Glock doesn't already do better.
CZ- If you want to change it up, they are fantastic guns. In the last couple years , people have caught on. CZUSA is great for repair/warantty work and the 75B is one of the most bomb proof designs out there. Still doesn't offer anything over a glock
Beretta 92 - Another proven, quality design. Very underrated pistol and notoriosuly accurate. You can grab a police trad ein for $350-399. Good gun with plenty of parts and mags. Everyone should have one. They make a great trunk/shop gun.
1911 - Buy a cheap RIA 1911 and have a fun range gun. They even make them in 9mm if you are adverse to .45
G26. You say you own some 19's and a 23? Get yourself a 26. The best glock out there IMO. Small enough to disapear in a jean pocket and still big enough to get a solid grip to shoot. You can also use your 19 mags, and save yourself some money.
Bottom Line:
Glocks for 9mm and 10mm
HK for 45's
.40/.357sig is for idiots
A whole lot of money, time and frustration to come to that simple conclusion.
For 9MM, glocks rule. There is no better choice on the market.
---snipped--
Bottom Line:
Glocks for 9mm and 10mm
HK for 45's
.40/.357sig is for idiots
A whole lot of money, time and frustration to come to that simple conclusion.
This post violates the Royer Rule (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144449-Formal-announcement-Dave-Royer-Internet-Rule&p=1816662#post1816662).
DOnt know why the .40 gets knocked around so bad wtf. Anyway, I had a P-01,I liked it,but they have small slides to me. I sold that and bought a P-06 .40. Likes it even more. A little snappy,but it was basically the same size as the 01. But same thing,slide was too small for me. Seemed too low when aiming. Natural poa,but bulky grips. Sold that,remembered the 1911. Got a Nitron Carry now. Sold the P-06 and bought a '93 W. German made p226 9mm. Love it. Have you considered one of these?
Spend the money on software, not hardware.
TurretGunner
02-28-14, 18:44
This post violates the Royer Rule (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144449-Formal-announcement-Dave-Royer-Internet-Rule&p=1816662#post1816662).
I have owned or Shot every gun on that list and MANY more..... care to explain?
TurretGunner
02-28-14, 18:50
DOnt know why the .40 gets knocked around so bad wtf. Anyway, I had a P-01,I liked it,but they have small slides to me. I sold that and bought a P-06 .40. Likes it even more. A little snappy,but it was basically the same size as the 01. But same thing,slide was too small for me. Seemed too low when aiming. Natural poa,but bulky grips. Sold that,remembered the 1911. Got a Nitron Carry now. Sold the P-06 and bought a '93 W. German made p226 9mm. Love it. Have you considered one of these?
Because it offers nothing over 9mm other than slightly better in shooting through glass. Less capacity, more recoil, sharper recoil and more expensive to shoot with little to no performance over 9mm with modern ammo. Why handicap yourself?
.40 S&W has always been a solution looking for a problem.
Out of that list the FN would be my choice. I had a P07 duty for awhile but sold it for a P01. I'm a big CZ fan but accessories are very rare. Can't find holsters for shit.
I vote M&P9 if you would consider it lol.
I vote for M&P9 too.
...no performance over 9mm with modern ammo.
I've often wondered about that excuse...why is it that only 9mm benefits from 'modern bullet technology'? Wouldn't all calibers benefit?
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I've often wondered about that excuse...why is it that only 9mm benefits from 'modern bullet technology'? Wouldn't all calibers benefit?
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This is a topic that is often misstated as "with modern ammo 9mm is equivalent to .45" which is not true. If you closely read the findings of tests involving modern ammo choices what they actually show is that 1- modern 9mm ammo is effective and 2- the difference between 9mm and 45 is not great enough to outway the advantages 9mm has in capacity, cost(well used to be)and recoil.
I have switched to 9mm EDC from 45 for this reason.
Again, my vote is for the m&p 9. Saying a stock Glock trigger is better than a m&p trigger is like saying Spam is a higher quality meat product than Scrapple. It's all your point of reference. Compared to a nice 1911 they all suck. You can polish up the internals of an m&p in a few minutes and it will be mostly equivalent to most stock Glock trigger.
That being said, the Apex stuff is awesome and way better than any Glock trigger could be.
TurretGunner
03-01-14, 09:31
This is a topic that is often misstated as "with modern ammo 9mm is equivalent to .45" which is not true. If you closely read the findings of tests involving modern ammo choices what they actually show is that 1- modern 9mm ammo is effective and 2- the difference between 9mm and 45 is not great enough to outway the advantages 9mm has in capacity, cost(well used to be)and recoil.
I have switched to 9mm EDC from 45 for this reason.
Again, my vote is for the m&p 9. Saying a stock Glock trigger is better than a m&p trigger is like saying Spam is a higher quality meat product than Scrapple. It's all your point of reference. Compared to a nice 1911 they all suck. You can polish up the internals of an m&p in a few minutes and it will be mostly equivalent to most stock Glock trigger.
That being said, the Apex stuff is awesome and way better than any Glock trigger could be.
And a Haley skimmer trigger makes a glock trigger feel 1911ish....even better than the apexs I have shot. $150 later. The m&p trigger is not even close to a stock glock trigger in feel or smoothness.
And a Haley skimmer trigger makes a glock trigger feel 1911ish....even better than the apexs I have shot. $150 later. The m&p trigger is not even close to a stock glock trigger in feel or smoothness.
Have you felt the newer production M&P's? The new one I just got has a great trigger for a factory gun. Crisp break and a short tactile reset. I'm not even going to replace it until I run out of other things to buy lol.
Dismissing them as junk is a little unfair and saying that they are not run for very long is completely untrue... They (and 2011s) may require significant maintenance but there is a reason that the cz75 and its clones (as well as the 2011) appear at the top of the scoreboards for production (while 2011s sit at the top for limited and open)
Haha! Yeah, people can shoot 'em well for sure. But 'requiring significant maintenance' is the definition of junk!
Not to mention those production guns see more rounds a year then most people shoot in a lifetime. I could sit here all day and tell you that I have SEEN every manufacture break down while shooting USPSA. Yea it's a game of sorts but tough on equipment. Personally USPSA is why I'm not a Kimber fan.
I have owned or Shot every gun on that list and MANY more..... care to explain?
Your experience doesn't justify your opinion as fact. I owned a Glock and it was a piece of crap. I don't paint all Glocks with that brush. Did you own a PPQ? How many parts did you order for it? For me, all it took was a phone call to Earls and I had them a week later. XDS are junk? How many rounds have you put through yours, and what led you to that conclusion?
All you did was restate internet stereotypes. Your post was long on opinion, short on facts, and lacked bona fides.
IMHO
Because it offers nothing over 9mm other than slightly better in shooting through glass. Less capacity, more recoil, sharper recoil and more expensive to shoot with little to no performance over 9mm with modern ammo. Why handicap yourself?
.40 S&W has always been a solution looking for a problem.
Yep. If you look at FBI agent Urey Patrick's old papers on "10mm Notes" and "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", the primary reason why the FBI went away from the 9mm was because of performance through windshields in the 1980s. Bullet designs back then sucked. Today, with modernized loads like the Gold Dot, and the HST, the 9mm pretty much equals the .40S&W on laminated auto glass tests. The bonding of the jacket to the core, or the use of a hard lead core with a thick copper alloy jacket like the HST makes a huge difference over the old Silvertips and thin jacket hollow points of the past.
Probably the most interesting shift in the times is that the FBI field offices are using 9mm Glocks more and more over their regular issued .40 Glocks.
I've often wondered about that excuse...why is it that only 9mm benefits from 'modern bullet technology'? Wouldn't all calibers benefit?
Yes and no. If you look at the old IWBA testing in the 1990s, the .40S&W, and .45acp showed measurable penetration superiority in all of the FBI wound ballistics tests over the .38spl and 9mm. With today's ammo, the larger calibers still penetration to about the same levels two decades ago, but now the 9mm can equal all those calibers in penetration ability. Once you get ideal penetration, followed by a nice crushing/cutting projectile shape, hole size isn't that important compared to other desirable attributes that the 9mm offers.
With the influx of new .45acps in the last 10 years, I've seen more and more LE agencies using them thinking it would be Thor's hammer. Police One and Law Officer has a number of OIS articles in recent years where officers have almost exhausted their carry ammo on dangerous perps with little effect. Even with superior ammo, these incidents have just demonstrated why there is really no measurable difference between the common service calibers. Here's a few incidents you can see on the net:
Officer Keith Borders shooting: Officer scored 6 torso hits on perp with 200gr .45acp+P Gold Dots, but it took a well placed head shot to stop the guy from shooting back.
Officer Tim Gramins shooting: Officer scored 17 total hits on perp with 230gr .45acp HSTs, including 4 torso hits, but it took head shots to stop him as well.
Officer Randy Seitz shooting: Officer scored 7 torso hits on perp with 230gr .45acp Gold Dots through a windshield, but it took another 5 minutes before the perp stopped returning fire and bled out.
Officer Peter Soulis shooting: Officer scored 22 hits on perp, with 17 of those striking COM using .40S&W 180gr Ranger Talons. After 16 of those COM hits, the perp was still able to run back to his vehicle and engage the transmission to get rolling.
The only measurable improvement to hole punches(handgun calibers) to make them more effective would be to give them rifle wounding effects by cranking up the velocity to well over 2000fps, while keeping good mass and sectional density, followed by ideal bullet construction. There isn't really a practical solution to that at this point in time. The NYPD Annual Discharge Report is always a good resource for OIS statistics.
teutonicpolymer
03-01-14, 16:01
Haha! Yeah, people can shoot 'em well for sure. But 'requiring significant maintenance' is the definition of junk!
is the 1911 junk then?
TurretGunner
03-01-14, 17:49
Your experience doesn't justify your opinion as fact. I owned a Glock and it was a piece of crap. I don't paint all Glocks with that brush. Did you own a PPQ? How many parts did you order for it? For me, all it took was a phone call to Earls and I had them a week later. XDS are junk? How many rounds have you put through yours, and what led you to that conclusion?
All you did was restate internet stereotypes. Your post was long on opinion, short on facts, and lacked bona fides.
IMHO
Wow so u owned bad example of the most proven service handgun ever produced...and that is your example? How many ppq are out there? How many have had 100k+ through them! been tested by hundreds of agencies and in use in the worst terrain? Can you find parts at your local gun store? Are there hundreds of online sources for parts? How many local armorers even know how to diagnose and work on them? Buying one is a gamble. If history is an indicator..it will be another fad gun that dies off into obscurity in a few years. Walther is known for this.
Xds are known junk. Ask anyone who has run one hard or teaches pistol classes. Parts are another issue. Grip mounted safety is another issue. I had about 3k through my xd 45 before I sold it. It was the worst 45 I have ever owned. Ask any of the sme trainers here how they fare in their classes. You know who uses xd's? Ignorant gun store employees and cops who are to cheap to buy a quality service sidearm. I don't need to own and shoot every gun to failure because others have already done this and shared it. People who are impartial and highly respected in the industry. Opinion based on fact and experience.
Thing is..you don't know enough about these weapons otherwise you would not be asking silly questions such as why the xd is junk. No one said you have to know everything but if your going to call someone out...make sure your facts are in order first.
Your attempt to use some LAV quote does not even ring close.
Psalms144.1
03-03-14, 09:49
I'm late to this discussion and most everything important has already been said, but I'll add my own emphasis.
If you have MASTERED your chosen platform and proven your mastery through high-level performance at recognized training venues or significant competition, and you want to try "something different" just to broaden your horizons, then go for it. What platform you choose should be based on what performs best IN YOUR HANDS after test firing the alternatives, not based on who says what on the Errornet.
If you haven't MASTERED your chosen platform, going to a different platform is ONLY logical if your current platform is not performing for YOUR needs. Nothing in your post indicates that the Glock isn't working for you (quite the contrary, in fact), so I can't urge you strongly enough to save your money and put it to use in getting some quality training.
I'm speaking from experience here. Over my shooting lifetime (30+ years now, as a competitor, military member, and Federal LEO), I have spent tens of thousands of dollars, literally, chasing "the best" handgun for my needs. In all that time, I have never found a platform that, overall, gives me a better option than the Glock. Now, believe me, I am NOT a Glock fanboi, in fact, I have tried, throughout my life, to find something "better" - and have done it all - 1911s, HKs, S&Ws of all flavors, CZs, Sigs, Steyr, etc, etc, etc. While several of those gave SOME advantage over the Glock, none of them gives the same overall usefulness of the Glock. For example, HK, Sig and CZ are are measurably more accurate than equivalent size/caliber Glocks, but all are less size efficient, and are hampered by triggers that range from ho-hum to downright nasty, making them all measurably harder to shoot well at speed. So, if I need to make a 25 yard head shot from cover, I want my HK; if I'm fighting at 15 yards and in working COM, I want my Glock. Not that the Glock CAN'T make that 25 yard head shot - I've got plenty of hits on 3x5 cards at that range to prove it, it's just harder to do so.
If you search for my name, you will see A LOT of Glock hate from me in the 2010-2012 period, as I went through hell trying to get a duty G19 that would work. And, in the interest of full disclosure, there are STILL a lot of folks getting marginally reliable G19s, even with the "latest and greatest" parts installed - so I personally DON'T believe that Glock has "figured out" what exactly is wrong with the platform. I eventually switched to HKs (P2000 and P30) out of frustration, and spent a LOT of time and money working on proficiency with them. But, as time has passed and I finally got a G19 that works, I find that, more and more, it is the pistol that I take out of my nightstand safe to put in my holster every day.
So, that's a LONG winded way of getting back to this: unless there is something WRONG with the Glock platform FOR YOU, don't waste time and money chasing something BETTER, spend time and money mastering what you have.
Regards,
Kevin
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