View Full Version : Complete Newbie Has A Question
H. Augustus
02-19-14, 11:24
Alright, alright, I've been reading enough to know newbies sometimes ask some dumb questions and have some dumb ideas. I am indeed a newbie, both to this site and to AR 15's. I do know I'm uninformed. Please bear with me. I tried to ask at my local gun store, but you know how it is there; if you're starting from scratch the guy quickly realizes either you aren't buying today and gets bored with your questions, or thinks that he might talk you into a big sale and so jumps on you with big words and both boots. I felt stupid there, which I was. I asked him, "What's the difference between that AR for $779 and that one for $3009?" He began listing things too fast for me to understand (starting with 'Mil Spec' which I wrongly assumed was HIS wife's name), ending with "You don't want that cheap one anyway, it'll break on you, if you really want the best deal you've got to spend $3000." Okay. But what kind of newbie would I be to shell out that kind of money just because a guy behind the counter with a nametag says so? Right, a dumb newbie. So, I began searching the web. I started with this premise: I have a family to protect, and I don't know what the future holds, so I need to get armed. My wife started with this premise: You are nuts, but if you're really going to do this, we can afford only $2000 tops, not a penny more because we have kids to send to college. If you knew my wife, you don't argue. She's incredibly competent and takes great care of our family and she's my princess so $2000 it is. I quickly realized after a few hours on the internet that although $2000 is doable, I will certainly have to make some compromises. Personally, I fell in love with the Colt M4 (which is how I ran across this site) with all the fixin's, which of course costs lots more than $2000. So my first question is: Knowing I need a complete package for $2000, including optics (I am 51 and I assure you I need optics), a dedicated upper .22 LR that I can switch out so I can practice without overspending my weekly allowance...well, what do you experts suggest? There it is. My dumb question, and probably a dumb idea too. Thanks, guys, I look forward to your time and expertise if you're willing to share.
FeltaDorce
02-19-14, 11:28
Step 1: read everything on this website
Step 2: Buy a colt 6920
That should just about summarize everything that will be posted henceforth.... :)
You will hear a lot of people telling you to avoid small boutique manufacturers as you can get a reputable rifle for a decent cost elsewhere (Colt, BCM, DD etc)...All I have to say about these people is...THEY ARE CORRECT!!
There is a wealth of knowledge from some super knowledgeable people on these boards in which I have personally benefited greatly from. You came to the right place, my friend.
If you like a Colt 6920, and I'm assuming you've handled one, then you might as well get one. You could then just get a drop in .22 kit along with either a Daniel Defense fixed rear iron sight or an MBUS PRO rear iron sight. If you want an optic throw an Aimpoint of some dollar amount on there and then get training from someone who is a reputable instructor. I can't stress that last one enough. Welcome to the forum and don't forget to read the stickies since they contain a lot of useful information, especially for people just being introduced to the AR platform.
$2000 is plenty to get you a very reliable set up. I think there is no better learning then building yourself. Do ALOT of research and then buy it build on what you learn. I would get into contact with C4iGrant and let home know what you are wanting.
Colts are good and I just bought one two months ago as my first AR15. I got the Colt LE6920 MP-B. They are a nice rifle and are mil spec. I paid $1250. I think you can find one at G&R tactical for around $1,050. The colt is a fine rifle. That would leave you some cash for a red dot sight, a sling, a light, and maybe some ammo.
But, I did just buy a BCM upper. BCM has just released some cutting edge stuff and they are continuing to innovate with some quality stuff. You could build a complete BCM rifle for somewhere around $1500 or so. Check them out.
Bravocompanyusa.com
"BCM"
I just purchased the (BCM 14.5 ELW-F KMR13 upper). Lightweight and quality.
If you are entirely new I'd recommend against playing armorer since there are a number of specific tools and steps that will in the end be comparatively too difficult and expensive for a new owner than simply learning how a factory assembled rifle works and later on you can still build one if you so desire.
I'm into my 6920 for under a grand. Purchased it online from cheaper than dirt. You could do that and use your other grand for ammo.
For the price would either recommend a Colt 6920 or a Bravo Company 16" mid-length, both can be had for around $1100. The Colts can be found at Wal-Mart. I would recommend buying a Bravo Company from somewhere like G&R Tactical and having it shipped to a FFL, this way you won't have to pay sales tax just usually $20 to recieve and the $10 you pay anyways for a background check. You can't go wrong with either rifle, but my first choice for best bang for the dollar is Bravo Company. Bravo Company's products and customer service is top notch. Also the Burris MTAC 1-4 is very good glass for the price $399.
Apricotshot
02-19-14, 12:06
For a first time AR buyer I'd always suggest the Colt 6920 that you can get at Wal-Mart for $979.
Another vote for 6920. ~$1100
Then buy:
-a good sling ($40)
-a good quality flashlight with solid mount (~$150 and up)
-at least an Aimpoint PRO for a red dot sight (~$400). Aimpoint T1/H1 plus solid mount would be great, if you have the money (~$650).
-10-100 quality magazines (~$10ea) and as much ammo as you can (~$400 per 1k).
Mags and ammo is the x-factor for your budget. Without them you are not doing much, so think on that. Skip the red dot and get these instead if $2k truly is the line in the sand. Ammo ain't cheap and you'll need a lot IMO. If you have a plan to buy mags and ammo "off the record" then get the RDS.
*prices are approximate, but should be under $2k for a serious HD setup.
jerrysimons
02-19-14, 12:59
2k will easily get you a great rifle, either a Colt 6920 from Wally World or Grant or a BCM from Grant is the way to go (stick with a 16" barrels for you first rifle) http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
Where your budget my fall short is with optics. What are you talking about? A red dot sight? Variable scope? Fixed magnification ACOG? Do you have any eyesight deficiencies like astigmatism? I don't want to overwhelm you but you must have been imagining something when you said optic. Also the utility of iron sights shouldn't be overlooked. You need to at least develop proficiency with irons even if you have an optic.
You could do a BCM from Grant by buying a complete lower and upper (PM him for M4C discount code)
-Lower (select a BCM M4 stock): http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
-Upper (w links to all the necessary drop in/bolt on parts):
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16-LW-MID&reference=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
-Hand Guards: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MOE-HG-MID
-Bolt Carrier Group: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-BCM
-Charging handle: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=GFCH-BCM
- Rear sight: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MBUS2R&reference=http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=MAGP
-Pmag: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MAG571
Total: $1130 (let Grant know all the parts are for a complete rifle).
Good grief, you really need to use paragraphs and not post a jumble of crap. I got about a sentence in and gave up.
Another vote for a 6920. Grant has them for $1000.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
Then, as others have suggested, get a good sling, a good light/mount combo, a red dot sight, mags and ammo.
You could wait for a deal to pop up on the aimpoint pro. Sometimes as low as $360.
IWC has some good light/mount combos.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/category/combo-deals/lights/
soldier_twiggy
02-19-14, 13:36
How come no one ever says get the Colt 6940? A buddy of mine just got one at Wally World for $1100ish (as I recall).
Just curious.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
Can't swap out the rail if you wanted to change it up in the future.
soldier_twiggy
02-19-14, 13:39
That's all? No glaring issues aside the monolithic setup? That's good. Thanks.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
That's all? No glaring issues aside the monolithic setup? That's good. Thanks.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
Other than being monolithic, and having that flip up front sight, it's the same as a 6920.
soldier_twiggy
02-19-14, 13:47
Cool cool cool. That's what I thought, but I figured if that was all then someone would've mentioned it as an option since it's only about $200 more than the 6920.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
Cool cool cool. That's what I thought, but I figured if that was all then someone would've mentioned it as an option since it's only about $200 more than the 6920.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
I think most people don't mention it, because it doesn't give you options down the road when you figure out what you need.
H. Augustus
02-19-14, 14:08
My apologies to Mr. Discreet for the syntax of my first post.
I was actually asking and expecting a lecture on gun-buying, not grammar.
Put simply however, just for you, which .223/.556 AR + .22 upper + optics + other accessories would you advise for a strict budget of $2000?
"To halt under fire is folly. To halt under fire and not return fire is suicide." Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
mattiep321
02-19-14, 14:26
My vote goes to this as a starting point...
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-16-MOD0
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2
...and a word of advice? Don't quote Patton...he's NOT a hero...Google the Bonus Army
Lots of options. Personally I have a CMMG .22lr upper (around ... $350?) that I like. A bit more accurate than the drop in conversions, though if you're only going out to 25 yards you'll probably be fine.
I'm kind of suprised no one has mentioned the S&W M&P Sport, which is around $600. It's not top of the line, so if you're going for that, then the BCM/Colt recommendations are probably where you need to be. But if it's a starter, non home defense, it could be an option.
Optics - hard to beat an Aimpoint PRO for around $400, less if you keep your ear to the ground. Eotech has been putting up models in the $350-400 range, with rebates thrown in, recently (might be expired though). If you're looking for a cheap red dot for your .22 upper, try Primary Arms. Very Aimpoint-ish, for usually around $100. I'd avoid the other stuff right now (eg, ACOG). Stalking the EE might help you find some better deals.
Someplace like Palmetto State Armory for cheap magazines - usually in the $8 range for their "brand," which I think are D&H. DSG Arms has good prices as well on mags, especially if you qualify for one of their discounts.
soldier_twiggy
02-19-14, 15:43
Lots of options. Personally I have a CMMG .22lr upper (around ... $350?) that I like. A bit more accurate than the drop in conversions, though if you're only going out to 25 yards you'll probably be fine.
Nope! Those drop in 22 kits are not accurate at all! We're talking 4" pattern at 25 yards is normal. I'd stick to a designated 22 upper...those are very nice.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
My apologies to Mr. Discreet for the syntax of my first post.
I was actually asking and expecting a lecture on gun-buying, not grammar.
Put simply however, just for you, which .223/.556 AR + .22 upper + optics + other accessories would you advise for a strict budget of $2000?
"To halt under fire is folly. To halt under fire and not return fire is suicide." Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.
Don't buy a .22 upper (as they are not all that reliable). Buy a Colt LE6920 or LE6720. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=COLT
Then buy an Aimpoint (PRO or Micro).
For the .22 side, this is the best .22 on the market IMHO AND you get 300rds of free CCI .22LR! http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=811035
Good luck.
C4
SurplusShooter
02-19-14, 16:00
By the time you pay-out for a conversion kit or .22 upper you are part-way to the price of a M&P-15-22 and it still doesn't work as-well as the dedicated .22.
I learned my lesson the hard way and eventually wised-up and made the switch to a M&P-15-22.
soldier_twiggy
02-19-14, 16:03
If you go CMMG 22 upper, go with the SS bolt group. It is way better than the standard black group.
I am in no way claiming that CMMG is better than the S&W. I'm just saying the SS is better than the standard black.
sent from my secure, NSA proof satellite uplink.
Like someone already stated a Colt 6920 would be a great rifle for $1000 through Grant, that's one good starting point. That would leave you your other $1000 to spend as you wish on the extras, if it were me I'd stay away from the .22 upper for now, so you could get a decent optic, mags and ammo to put downrange.
First post on M4carbine.
I recommend the same as those above... Colt 6920. If the fever hits you, and you want to explore other options down the road, you can put your money into them at that time. I have many many boutique rifles, and some of them are low production safe queens. However I also have a 6920 in the safe, and it gets used. (not as much as I would like however). Cool looking guns are awesome and some of them have amazing build quality... Some are just as reliable or better perhaps, but the 6920 will work great, and the cost savings can go into optics, ammo, or training!
Welcome, H. Augustus.
I'm probably going to be trashed for my $0.02--but my experience is Colt's customer service is often poor. Example: A friend waited 8 months with unreturned phone calls when his brand new .308 AR (whichever Colt #) was a single shot. It took them over a month for Colt to get back to him on returning the rifle. If this was the only case I'm aware of, I'd call it a fluke, but 3 friends have experienced poor customer service & prolonged return times with their Colt ARs. So personally knowing 4 people with bad Colts, is--I'm certain--within the Six Sigma of Colt. However, the fact that the quickest turn-around repair on a new rifle was 3 months..... well, I think that's unacceptable.
Given this--I bought a Daniel Defense & Bravo Co--because their customer service is outstanding. Don't get me wrong--I'm happy with both rifles--but have recently been bit by the "boutique AR" bug, which segues to my recommendation:
If was only buying one AR, I'd contact Grant for a custom rifle--and no, I have no financial connection to him.
Remember spare parts--bolt, firing pin & cleaning kit. Then lots & lots of ammo for trigger time. And that "one is non & two is one..." :D
H. Augustus
02-21-14, 11:46
First, thanks to everyone who replied to my original post. Your expertise and willingness is much appreciated.
Second, it appears the consensus is indeed a Colt LE 6920.
Third, a good red dot optic, I'm going with Aimpoint PRO.
Fourth, Grant's suggestion was to purchase a .22 rifle rather than a .22 upper (for inexpensive plinking fun), and after his suggestion and much more research on the forum I have decided to go with the S&W M&P 15-22.
Fifth, a few magazines for each rifle.
All of these items together cost right at $2000. Hooray! I am very satisfied and trying to order everything today. Once again, thanks for the great advice!
August
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