View Full Version : Radiation leak: Texas & Oklahoma start taking your Iodine pills!
Doc Safari
02-21-14, 14:10
I picked this article because of the home-made graphic wind pattern map that seems to say it all.
23865
I've read this from several sources now. I live in New Mexico so I believe the wind pattern map is mostly pretty accurate, although winds from the North occur too.
http://climateviewer.com/2014/02/20/above-ground-plutonium-detected-new-mexico/
The scary thing is:
* The leak is being detected above-ground now.
* One MSM radio broadcast I heard said that the Feds say it may be WEEKS before they can get teams into the area
Heavy Metal
02-21-14, 14:36
Iodine tablets would be useless against Americum and Plutonium FYI.
I would take a leave of absence if I was roughneckin' in midland.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The people who write this crap really have no idea how radiation works. It is like the guy that claims Fukushima was going to turn California into a radioactive wasteland and everyone there was dead...
Doc Safari
02-21-14, 14:50
The people who write this crap really have no idea how radiation works. It is like the guy that claims Fukushima was going to turn California into a radioactive wasteland and everyone there was dead...
Okay, give us some details.
I realize it's a small leak right now, but who knows if it will become bigger?
Why or why shouldn't people be worried?
There isn't some radioactive sludge leaking out of the site contaminating everything around it. They have detected higher than normal levels of radiation. Levels which are still well within safe levels. Radiation is not the all invasive bogey man that people make it out to be. Oh yes it is dangerous but it doesn't work like these conspiracy nuts make it sound. If your kids were playing on top of the site then maybe you should be worried about them getting cancer in a few decades. Short of that though it is just more hype from people trying to generate traffic
For instance. Plutonium (in a sub critical stage) is pretty safe to handle with minimal safety measures. The main reason for this is that it emits primarily Alpha radiation. Alpha radiation is blocked by simple things. Gloves, plastic, even dead skin cells offer protection. The danger comes from ingestion. That alpha radiation doesn't irradiate things it comes into contact with. So inhaling a bit of dust that was near the plutonium doesn't count. You would need to ingest or otherwise have the plutonium enter your blood stream for it to be dangerous.
Americium-241 is similar although it also has the risk of Gamma radiation, which is more dangerous. Once again however the real threat comes from inhalation of an amount that would be dangerous.
The "leaks" they are talking about at this site is a simple radiation leak. Not material magically being blown into the air in any real quantity so people can breath it in down wind. Small leak or large leak, the threat posed is completely local. You would probably get more radiation on a flight across the ocean than you would standing on top of this place.
Doc Safari
02-21-14, 15:11
So in a nutshell you're saying we should not fear this like "fallout", which is how the so-called "fearmongers" are addressing it?
You're saying someone in the path of prevailing winds should not fear getting a dose of radiation over time even if the leak becomes worse, correct?
So in a nutshell you're saying we should not fear this like "fallout", which is how the so-called "fearmongers" are addressing it?
You're saying someone in the path of prevailing winds should not fear getting a dose of radiation over time even if the leak becomes worse, correct?
Correct.
Radiation by definition is how EM waves travel through space. The material doing the emitting is the problem. If the source is underground and the containment failed, anyone directly adjacent to it is at risk. If the material makes it's way out in the form of dust or gas, then it will be emitting radiation wherever it goes. It all depends on if the material was made airborn or not.
Doc Safari
02-21-14, 15:50
Correct.
Radiation by definition is how EM waves travel through space. The material doing the emitting is the problem. If the source is underground and the containment failed, anyone directly adjacent to it is at risk. If the material makes it's way out in the form of dust or gas, then it will be emitting radiation wherever it goes. It all depends on if the material was made airborn or not.
Then it doesn't quite make sense to say it's not a hazard.
If radiation was detected away from the site, then clearly it is capable of becoming airborne.
I'll grant you that over hundreds of miles it might become very diluted, but how can it not be a hazard if it's being detected in the air away from the site?
Maybe people in the immediate area need to be worried and people in Amarillo do not, but where do you draw the line? And what if the leak continues for several weeks?
To use an analogy, when you cook something in the kitchen, you can eventually smell it in other rooms of the house.
So if the radiation is potentially hazardous "in the immediate area", how can that hazard not eventually "travel" albeit in a diluted form?
Then it doesn't quite make sense to say it's not a hazard.
If radiation was detected away from the site, then clearly it is capable of becoming airborne.
I'll grant you that over hundreds of miles it might become very diluted, but how can it not be a hazard if it's being detected in the air away from the site?
Maybe people in the immediate area need to be worried and people in Amarillo do not, but where do you draw the line? And what if the leak continues for several weeks?
To use an analogy, when you cook something in the kitchen, you can eventually smell it in other rooms of the house.
So if the radiation is potentially hazardous "in the immediate area", how can that hazard not eventually "travel" albeit in a diluted form?
As I said. You have about as much to fear from this as from taking an Airplane ride across the Atlantic.
The site you linked to int he OP is so irresponsible it is almost criminal. It takes a small grain of truth. The radiation levels detected at the site where the highest detected in the history of that location. However he then goes on to mix in his own little bit of fear mongering with claims such as "This is a RADIOACTIVE HAZMAT situation until otherwise proven, and should be taken seriously.".
He then throws in references to nuclear testing and people who were downwind of that. In doing so he is trying to incite fear into people by making them think that this situation would be similar.
If you hop on Youtube there are videos of people handling yellow cake. It is highly radioactive. The required safety gear? Rubber gloves and a respirator. The dear of Nuclear materials has become so pervasive in our society that reason flies out the window when talking about it. And people like the one you liked in the OP are a big part of the problem.
Another example.. Take an old clock, or anything else that was glow int he dark from the 40s and 50s. Get a radiation detector and put it next to it. The needle on the detector will peg. The radiation put off by those is so high that it cant' be readily measured by commercially available meters. Yet they are completely safe to own and have sitting by your bed at night.
The people in the immediate area don't need to be worried either unless the place suddenly blows up and the radioactive material made airborne in appreciable quantities.
Doc Safari
02-21-14, 16:22
I know the article I linked to has a lot of hyperbole. I could have picked another but that one had an easy-to-read graphic of the expected dispersion pattern due to the prevailing wind direction. Once again, I KNOW that article wasn't the best one for text...
The people in the immediate area don't need to be worried either unless the place suddenly blows up and the radioactive material made airborne in appreciable quantities.
Now, we're getting somewhere. That sounds like fallout.
I think you're saying that the radiation being detected from WIPP is not like either fallout or the radiation from an X-ray machine. It's not being "beamed" out by the leak source.
Correct?
Although I do have to play "Devil's Advocate" and say, "If it's not a hazard, why is the stuff buried underground in a salt cave?"
To use an analogy, when you cook something in the kitchen, you can eventually smell it in other rooms of the house.
So if the radiation is potentially hazardous "in the immediate area", how can that hazard not eventually "travel" albeit in a diluted form?
Because radiation doesn't work like that.
You are constantly dosed with radiation. Sunlight and normal background radiation from ground material gives you about 2 to 3 millisieverts (mSv) per year. An x-ray of your body gives you a single dose of about 7 or 8 mSv on top of that, although some tests can get upwards of 20 mSv. An airplane ride gives you another 3 or so mSv. To compare all of that the radiation exposure around Fukushima was in the mid teens depending in proximity to the plant with some plant workers getting a dose of around 100. Do you think that the radiation from non reacting materials stored in a cave is going to be worse?
For comparison here is a bit on what radiation dosages can do to a person. (1 Rem = 10 mSv)
According to NRC, if a person is exposed to 500 rems of radiation at once, person will likely die without any medical treatment. Single dose of 100 rem will cause nausea and skin reddening and 25 rem of single dose can cause temporary sterility in men. However, NRC also says that if the radiation is spread out over time instead of being delivered at once, the affects are less severe.
Finally you have to keep in mind that radiation deteriorates very quickly. At best with a high energy source you are looking at a couple hundred meters through air. This is hardly a situation with high energy sources involved.
I know the article I linked to has a lot of hyperbole. I could have picked another but that one had an easy-to-read graphic of the expected dispersion pattern due to the prevailing wind direction. Once again, I KNOW that article wasn't the best one for text...
Now, we're getting somewhere. That sounds like fallout.
I think you're saying that the radiation being detected from WIPP is not like either fallout or the radiation from an X-ray machine. It's not being "beamed" out by the leak source.
Correct?
Although I do have to play "Devil's Advocate" and say, "If it's not a hazard, why is the stuff buried underground in a salt cave?"
I think we are getting closer good sir. I won't pretend to be an expert on radiation. I do a lot of reading sure. But most of my knowledge come from my father who worked on nukes while in the Air Force (The stories he can tell you).
Asking why it is buried is like asking why we keep our guns in gun safes. They can be dangerous in the right (or wrong) circumstances.
A
Another example.. Take an old clock, or anything else that was glow int he dark from the 40s and 50s. Get a radiation detector and put it next to it. The needle on the detector will peg. The radiation put off by those is so high that it cant' be readily measured by commercially available meters. Yet they are completely safe to own and have sitting by your bed at night.
Well, not really. Radium, the radioactive element used to make glowing watch hands is very potentially harmful, but not because of it's direct Alpha/Beta/Gamma radiation (the watch hands not being very radioactive at all compared to Uranium 238, Radium itself being the result of Uranium decay btw), but because it directly decays into Radon in it's decay chain, a radioactive gas and Aplha particle emitter which is easily absorbed in the body by breathing, and very potentially causing damage.
Most radium clock/watch/instrument dials collectors keep them in an enclosed cabinet with a ventilation system connected at the bottom (where Radon accumulates) and directed outside, or in airtight containers.
Just my two cents.
Kwelz, I admire your effort but I predict you won't have any better luck in this thread dissuading people from fearing the radioactive boogeyman any more than in any of the other threads where your well-reasoned arguments have tried to dispel myth, rumor, and hysteria on the subject.
I'm right in the middle of that mspaint radiation dispersion pattern. I'll let you know if I die of radiation poisoning.
But don't hold your breath. Or do, I guess.
SilverBullet432
02-23-14, 13:07
Hell im borderline zone 2 wtf nm
Well, not really. Radium, the radioactive element used to make glowing watch hands is very potentially harmful, but not because of it's direct Alpha/Beta/Gamma radiation (the watch hands not being very radioactive at all compared to Uranium 238, Radium itself being the result of Uranium decay btw), but because it directly decays into Radon in it's decay chain, a radioactive gas and Aplha particle emitter which is easily absorbed in the body by breathing, and very potentially causing damage.
Most radium clock/watch/instrument dials collectors keep them in an enclosed cabinet with a ventilation system connected at the bottom (where Radon accumulates) and directed outside, or in airtight containers.
Just my two cents.
U238 isn't all that radioactive. U235 is the fissile material. Even then, like plutonium is only a mild radioisotope until subjected to fission. U239 is highly radioactive since it results from the radioactive decay of uranium. However, it's relatively unstable and tends to break down into a different isotope quickly hence why it's so radioactive.
As far as radioactivity goes in general people need to think of it like fire. Far away you don't even feel it, closer and it gets warm, closer yet and you get burned. Of course that would be because fire burns you with the same thing as plutonium, radiation. That would be the gama radiation anyway. For the alpha particles there really too weak to iradiate anything. They can't even get through skin. Gaseous or particulate versions of the source material itself is what would allow alpha radiation to cause harm. Beta radiation, which plutonium is actually a good source of, will go through skin quite readily. How do you block it? A t shirt will suffice. It's weak, very weak. Open wounds and ingestion is the main issue. The big difference between it and alpha radiation is that it will iradiate dust. A simple dust mask will deal with this though.
To be honest I'd be more concerned about the plutonium itself than the radioactivity. Plutonium is ultra toxic. Most of these solid radio isotopes are super toxic heavy metals that are far worse than lead or nickel. Then again it's highly unlikely that any plutonium in any form would get out and the average person would be dealing with far more toxic concentrations of chemicals in everyday life like cleaning supplies and gasoline fumes.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
ForTehNguyen
02-23-14, 16:43
bananas have radiation in them, run for the hills!
bananas have radiation in them, run for the hills!
Radiation for everyone! Yay!!!!
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
TurretGunner
02-24-14, 07:31
Didn't read the article but did they estimate where/what the source was?
There is a ton of uranium in the world. There is so much in the ocean that research has estimated that if we can harvest it from the sea, we will have enough fuel for forever.
Radon Gas that is a decay product of Uranium is more of a danger than anything. They used to take Uranium Tail Millings from various sites around the US and use them for fill dirt on construction sites. The entire downtown strip in Grand Junction, CO was built on tail millings. They eventualy escavated all of it when they realized what was going on. It's not the uranium that is dangerous, its the decay products.
Ive stood ontop of ground zero detonations at Nevada Test Site. There were hundreds of detonations there my fish still swim. Radiation hysteria is pushed by people who really don't understand it or are just trying to rile the mouth breathers up to sell papers.
Yeah, my trinitite collection is a significantly larger danger than the sum total of that - for now.
Most people just can't fathom how extremely logarithmic radiation exposure is. It is really extraordinarily bad at high concentrations, but the worst among the offenders are things like Iodine 131 still have half-lives of only 8 days, which is why stable KI prophy can be effective, but for a lot of other radionucelotides that contamination can behave completely differently.
I have a friend that is a nuclear physicist with time spent at the Savannah river site (Bomb plant). He is fun to talk to because he is good at discussing these subjects in layman's terms. He said that the hippies who run around naked while camping above 5000 feet are exposed to more radiation than the guy that who mops up a hot water leak from a reactor. He admits that is dangerous but not as dangerous as the 6 o'clock news anchor would have you believe. GH
Radiation hysteria is pushed by people who really don't understand it or are just trying to rile the mouth breathers up to sell papers.
Yeah. People don't realize radiation is naturally occuring all around us 24/7.
People naturally fear what they don't understand.
To further the radiation education a bit more...very generally in order of danger.....or ability to penetrate skin and eventually cells.
Idiots guide to radiation:
Alpha Particle -Positively charged particle, blocked by clothing and skin.
Beta Particle - Negatively charged particle, blocked by Aluminum or Plastics.
Gamma Waves -Electromagnetic Photons, highly penetrating, only partially blocked by lead.
Neutron - Particulate radiation with no charge - Kind of like a steel core 5.56 round penetrates most everything well.
HackerF15E
02-24-14, 22:16
That sounds like fallout.
Fallout is the result of a ground-burst nuclear weapon.
In the ground burst, dirt and earthen particles from the blast site are sucked up into the mushroom cloud because of the vertical movement of the heated air. While moving up through the mushroom cloud, those particles mix it up with actual radioactive particles from the detonation. The now-contaminated dirt particles are pitched up into the atmosphere out the top of the mushroom cloud, where they are whisked away by high winds in the jetstream.
Those contaminated particles are "fallout". The particles "fall out" of the jetstream on locations many miles downrange from the site of origin.
So, no...the particles of Pu and Am found around the WIPP site are not like fallout at all.
For instance. Plutonium (in a sub critical stage) is pretty safe to handle with minimal safety measures. The main reason for this is that it emits primarily Alpha radiation. Alpha radiation is blocked by simple things. Gloves, plastic, even dead skin cells offer protection. The danger comes from ingestion. That alpha radiation doesn't irradiate things it comes into contact with. So inhaling a bit of dust that was near the plutonium doesn't count. You would need to ingest or otherwise have the plutonium enter your blood stream for it to be dangerous.
Americium-241 is similar although it also has the risk of Gamma radiation, which is more dangerous. Once again however the real threat comes from inhalation of an amount that would be dangerous. .
Keep in mind that both Plutonium and Americium also put out neutrons.
montanadave
02-25-14, 12:47
Keep in mind that both Plutonium and Americium also put out neutrons.
Good god, this thread is starting to make my head hurt. C'mon, let's dance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Y-9YSBB9s
Doc Safari
02-25-14, 13:05
Just somebody say definitively how much radiation there has to be and how close you have to be that you need to worry. That's all I ask.
VooDoo6Actual
02-25-14, 13:31
source: YAHOO News
Fukushima's Radioactive Ocean Water Arrives At West Coast
http://news.yahoo.com/fukushima-39-radioactive-ocean-water-arrives-west-coast-141659725.html;_ylt=A0LEVxvq7QxTvRwA_FJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NzhxNXJ0BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDM3N18x
IIRC sometime in the mid 60s on a local tv news segment they said that milk in PA had radioactive levels detected that turned up one week after a test in China.
Ok, I have some personal experience with the WIPP site (been there, down into the mines). Provided the robots that open/test the road casks.
Unless something has changed since the late '90s, the materials stored there are low grade contaminated materials brought in from Savannah. Materials such as tools/PPE that have been contaminated. It was explained to us that this is Alpha/Beta radiation only. Protocol in case of a "hot" road cask was to flood the room with a chemical wash to contain the radiation. It's not like they're storing plutonium cells from nuclear weapons there - that's another site very near Amarillo.
So, it is highly unlikely that anyone's gonna be dosed with Gamma rays as a result of this fire. So, relax, you aren't gonna turn green when angry or anything like that.
Good god, this thread is starting to make my head hurt.
We didn't even get to Beta particle emitting isotopes also emitting X-rays through Bremsstrahlung if blocked by material. Energy is never lost.
IIRC sometime in the mid 60s on a local tv news segment they said that milk in PA had radioactive levels detected that turned up one week after a test in China.
Everything that contains Calcium is going to be radioactive to a certain extent because there is always a certain amount of radioactive Calcium isotope present. Same thing with bananas and Potassium.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.