Best shell for home defense [Archive]

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live2offroad

05-22-08, 00:03

RyanB

05-22-08, 03:48

00, 000.

Oscar 319

05-22-08, 05:57

00 Buck.

kjo

05-22-08, 08:20

might look into federal tactical low recoil 00 buck

warpigM-4

05-22-08, 08:21

3 inch 00 buck 9 -12 pellets:)

DANGER CLOSE

05-22-08, 08:53

+1 on the Federal Tactical #00 buck.

RWK

05-22-08, 11:17

Birdshot is for birds.

My recommendation is for whatever 00 buck feeds and patterns best in your shotgun. I included feeding because you didn't indicate whether your shotgun was a pump or semi-auto. Patterning should be for whatever distance you determine your longest reasonable shot may be, i.e. the longest hallway, distance from the top of the stairs to the bottom, opposite corner-to-corner width of the largest room, etc.

There are 8- or 9-pellet loads, full power or low recoil loads, plated or lead shot, and loads with or without FliteControl wadding. Federal Tactical, Hornady TAP, Winchester Ranger, and Remington Tactical all have comparable offerings.

I recommend buying a small sampling (25 rds, or so) of each and testing them with your shotgun. Some people may even find that standard hunting loads work as well for them as the 'tactical' stuff. (And the hunting loads are less expensive, too).

Joe Mamma

05-22-08, 16:38

I go with standard hunting 12 pellet OO Buck. But, I keep slugs closeby as an option because you never know . . .

Joe Mamma

TheGhostRider

05-22-08, 18:12

I use #4 BB..........

It's evil.

TheGhostRider

05-22-08, 18:13

I use #4 BB..........

It's evil.

Another good one is 0000buck.

lanceriley

05-23-08, 09:03

gishooter

05-23-08, 09:48

I run bird shot, as I hope it won't go thru walls. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. My shotgun is just a backup to my Glock anyways but better safe than sorry.
On a side note, I have a rem 11-87 tact and had never had any feed problems, I have even shot clay pigeons with training loads and had no feed problems.

lanceriley

05-23-08, 10:06

I never really understood how a shotgun can be used as a defensive weapon. when I was still new to guns everyone at the club told me that a house needs a shotgun. Now after 4 years of shooting... I still don't get it. the only time I will grab the shotgun is when there's an intruder "outside" the house but inside the fence. I have a benelli m3 18.5 barrel. It's very hard to move around doors with it. no matter how I try.

Inside the house Im better of with my SBR. A colt commando remake 11.5in barrel. or my fancied up Norinco 1911 which I have been shooting ipsc with. 100% reliable.

Here in my country, walls are made of cement. 3 inch machine hollow blocks filled with cement. with at least 1 inch of plastered cement. no way is #4 bird shot comming through. It's just the neighbors that im worried about since if there's an intruder i'll probably be shooting away from the house.

Impact

05-23-08, 10:44

live2offroad

05-23-08, 10:53

lanceriley

05-23-08, 11:56

oh no... you got me wrong. I am not questioning the lethality of a shotgun. in fact I find it very lethal.

what I meant was how to maneuver inside the house. I find it difficult. compared to maneuvering with an SBR or a pistol.

doesn't mean It's not possible. Just lack the ability to do it.

Unlike some. I don't have arguments with bullet lethality may it be 45, 9mm, 5.56mm, shotshell... I believe more in shot placement. with all those calibers.... nobody wants to be shot square in the chest.

Ron S.

05-23-08, 11:58

yup...my Mossberg Tactical Cruiser is my bedside buddy, loaded up with Federal LE Tactical 00 buckshot. nobody's getting away from that thing. If they run, my Dragunov should be able to pick 'em off down the street. ;) :D

Oh, and I don't find it too long at all to move around with. It's shorter than my M4. Now...if it had a stock on it (let alone, full size!), that'd be another thing. I could see that being more difficult.

lanceriley

05-23-08, 12:14

ah... i got a full stock and 18.5 barrel.

Saginaw79

05-23-08, 15:03

00 or 000

Unless you are shooting birds dont use birdshot!

lanceriley

05-23-08, 20:15

I know I should use #4 buckshot or 000 buckshot. but it doesn't exist in this part of the world.

but anyweiz... why don't you condone using #4 birdshot?

Match223

05-26-08, 18:17

I fixed the SBR problem with a Short Barreled Shotgun, a factory Rem 870 with a 14" barrel. It costs a $200.00 tax stamp like an SBR and is the same length.
I have 6 rounds of #4 birdshot in the tube and 4 rounds of 00 buck in the Speedfeed stock, Ghost ring sights with a + 1 extension.
If I ever need it (and I pray to God I never do) all I'll be doing the next day is spackling some interior drywall.

Match223

RD62

05-26-08, 21:05

I use Federal 2 3/4" Tactical Low-recoil 00 Buck.

My 870 is not my homedefense weapon though. 1st is my 1911 or G17, if I can get to it prefered weapon is my 10.5" SBR with 55gr XM193, highest mag capacity, most accruate, easiest to deploy with light, good terminal ballistics, and least chance of overpenetration. The 870 comes somewhere after those.

While I like the 8 or 9 .38 caliber pellets arriving simultaneously, my 870 is setup as an in-field hunting weapon, not a home defense weapon. The 2 3/4" low recoil should have sufficient energy, and penetration to do the job though. But the 870 is not equipped with a light, and is not nearly as easily manuvered. While it patterns well at in home distances, the chances of over penetration or errant shot is highest. I prefer the handling, shot placement, and light compatability of the other choices.

As for bird shot. Up close it's definately going to get someones attention. But I feel that penetration may not be entirely adequate, especially if the intruder is wearing heavy clothing. I'm not volunteering to stand in front of it or anything, I would just prefer ammunition designed to terminate a crack-head, not Tweety Bird. YMMV.

Just my opinion.

-RD62

DocGKR

05-27-08, 00:43

For 12 ga. use #1 Buckshot or larger. 00 Buckshot is the standard because it is the most common and is readily available in a variety of loadings.

5.56 mm M193 is NOT a good defense load, especially out of a 10.5" barrel; you would be far better off with a heavy OTM loading like 75/77 gr OTM or a barrier blind load like 55/62 gr Fed Tac or 60 gr Nosler Partition.

Saginaw79

05-27-08, 15:26

I know I should use #4 buckshot or 000 buckshot. but it doesn't exist in this part of the world.

but anyweiz... why don't you condone using #4 birdshot?

There are lots of sources online for 00 and 000, especially the 'tactical' loads, thats where I get mine

#4 shot may be the ONLY one you could use that might work, that being said Ill stick w/ buck

lanceriley

05-30-08, 19:11

5.56 mm M193 is NOT a good defense load, especially out of a 10.5" barrel; you would be far better off with a heavy OTM loading like 75/77 gr OTM or a barrier blind load like 55/62 gr Fed Tac or 60 gr Nosler Partition.
---------------------------------------

at this length of barrel. the bullet is unstable due to lack of barrel length. you should see how the bullet yaws.

I have an 11.5 barrel. Hunted with a wild dog. perfect.

DocGKR

06-04-08, 02:20

"at this length of barrel. the bullet is unstable due to lack of barrel length. you should see how the bullet yaws."

If you are talking about 55 gr M193 out of a Colt Commando/Mk18 style 10.5" barrel, you are wrong--the bullet is properly stabilized, otherwise it would not remain accurate. If you are meaning to speak of bullet upset in tissue, again, you are incorrect with regard to M193 and its yaw cycle.

lanceriley

06-04-08, 05:12

could you be more specific?

there is "less twist" in a bullet fired from a 1:12 11.5inch compared to 1:12 twist in a 20inch barrel.

less since your bullet just twisted almost 1 revolution compared to a 20 in barrel which twisted 1.66 times.

DocGKR

06-04-08, 12:00

Bullets fired out of very short 1 7/8" twist J-frame barrels are stabilized and accurate; a 10" barrel is more than enough to stabilize the projectile. Whether the barrel is 2", 10", or 20", the twist RATE is identical and the bullet is flying through the air making the same number of rotations. Secondly, although irrelevant to the stabilization issue, Mk18's and Colt Commandos are generally in 1/7 twist these days.

lanceriley

06-04-08, 12:07

i got 1:12

it's an m16a1 barrel. cutted down

Perryguy

06-06-08, 15:37

Getting back on the subject at hand, whatever you choose, go to the range and shoot at some targets. See what pattern you get at various home distances.

lanceriley

06-06-08, 19:08

i'll gladly shoot my shotgun within 20yards. anymore than that... they start to scatter. resulting in missed shots.

eightmillimeter

07-01-08, 16:35

I have been a dedicated #4 Buckshot user for over 5 years. I prefer to think of it as being shot 27 times with a .25 auto. Less over penetration, good patterns, can used with various chokes for optimum patterns at distance, even a hit of only 4 or 5 pellets has good stopping power. Pellets will go through heavy clothing that some lighter field loads might not.

PALADIN-hgwt

07-01-08, 18:02

xxxxx

lanceriley

07-01-08, 18:53

#4 buck would have been my primary choice until... as you see in the previous thread that I coudn't find it in my area

jc75754

07-01-08, 22:04

don't know if any of you have heard of Centurion Multi-Defense Buckshot. I personally like it because it is considered a multi purpose round but not like the odd and useless specialty shotgun rounds like the fletcher rounds. It fires 1x.650" RB and 6X1BK at 1300 fps. has fairly nice grouping and leaves a nice hole.

lanceriley

07-01-08, 23:23

that is a very interesting round.

toddackerman

07-02-08, 16:03

BussLuckey

07-09-08, 16:40

Across the average room....#6 shot (rabbit loads) will have the same terminal results as 00 buck...with less penetration.

Seagrave7

07-09-08, 17:14

racking the pump at night can be very dissuasive. :D

Agreed.

00 Buck for me.

lanceriley

07-09-08, 19:04

#6 buck sounds interesting but ... isn't it too small. I thought #4 was ideal

BussLuckey

07-09-08, 19:29

If you pattern "hunting" type loads at typical 15 -20 foot max distances... you'll be amazed at how small the spread is. Add the wadding and all, the wounding capability is incredble. On the plus side, overpenetration is minimal, especially when a family member may be on the other side of the typical residential wall.

PALADIN-hgwt

07-09-08, 21:32

xxxxx

CLHC

07-09-08, 23:45

Don't know about the "best," but as of now the Federal 12 Gauge 2 3/4" 27 Pellets #4 Lead Buckshot F1274B is what's in my Remington 870 XCS Marine Magnum. I'm looking for that Federal FliteControl Wad that was recommended by the fellows here on M4C.

lanceriley

07-10-08, 00:27

heard that the flite control wad makes it a lot better. but never really found one here in my area

John Wist

07-11-08, 10:41

I am kind of new to shotguns so this question might sound stupid but what is the difference in size of 00 buck #4 buck ECT.

PALADIN-hgwt

07-11-08, 11:04

xxxxx

lanceriley

07-11-08, 11:39

no such thing as stupid question ... we're all here to learn :D

dodge

07-27-08, 10:42

In my house the bedroom is 12' so I can't imagine that regular hunting loads wouldn't stop the intruder. From where I would set up to the bedroom door the length would be more like 10' or less. At that range the spread is nothing and the intruder is getting hit with a load more like a slug without the penatration of a slug. I feel that it would drop him right then and there maybe not killing him but put him down right now with him loosing al interest in continuning what he came there to do.

lanceriley

07-27-08, 11:39

unless your friend is high on illegal substance. maybe it'll just knock him around. I was thinking more of a perimeter shotgun. say like. if you have a gate that is 25yards from your door or your fence. it could be inetersting. if the intruder gets into the house. it'll more likely be a pistol fight.

Rik

07-29-08, 10:06

I just happen to wander across this site. Quite informative.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

You'll have to dig around a bit to find this:
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/pics/graph_buckshot_energy.jpg

HoBoBum

08-01-08, 13:02

I use the lightest load and smallest pellet, figuring that at 20 feet, it should stop anything except a vehicle, and shouldn't penetrate walls.....it worked in SE Asia....

lanceriley

08-01-08, 18:26

lowest load and the smallest pellet??? i don't think it's going to kill anybody

PALADIN-hgwt

08-01-08, 19:20

xxxxx

Dan Goodwin

08-02-08, 00:47

Pretty sure he's referring to 4 Buck being used in SE Asia by our forces. According to a retired SEAL officer who is a circuit judge here, 4 Buck is great stuff...for all creatures great and small.

I load WW Supreme 41-pellet 4 Buck in my HD 870. At work I use issued Rem. LR 00 Buck.

lanceriley

08-02-08, 06:45

if it's #4 buck. then that... is a very good load.

do you consider #4 buck as a birdshot??? I don't think so.

PALADIN-hgwt

08-02-08, 17:08

xxxxx

Protector

08-23-08, 15:10

(I'm sure this has been discussed, but a search for shells and home defense got me nadda.)

I keep my Mossberg 500 nearby, for any number of reasons.. But I've been reading that bird shot, even heavy bird shot, is less than ideal for home defense.

What is the preferred shell?

00 buck? Slugs? Thoughts?

-Peter

I just got my Mossberg 500A Tactical Special Purpose and after reading a post about the 00 Buck with Flight control Wad...I did a test of my own and by the pictures below you can see that at 10 yards (30 feet) which most inside the home shots should be less than this, but you can see that the flite control wad did a much better job of hitting center mass and yes being a 3" instead of a 2 3/4" shell did make a difference on my shoulder, however in a life threatening situation I would shoot them 3" shells all day long after lokking at those 2 targets.;)

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/12ga00buck-00withflite.jpg

twodollarbill

08-23-08, 22:14

Sweet Test.....
I use the Fed LE 2 3/4" 9 pellet with FCW for drills and fun because
of the cost....around $130 to $140 per case of 250.
But I'm with you, my Benelli M2 is loaded with the 3 inch 12 pellet load right now.

DANGER CLOSE

08-23-08, 22:31

here, here. duece bill. i run the same federal ammo thru my m590a1. i did a single shot at 25 yards at a pistol range and the spread was 12-13" all within the target zone / center mass. i can't beat that with any other shells and i am very confident in using this ammo.:)

GastonG-NoVa

08-25-08, 21:39

To heck with the racking sound..........................Only noise should be click...boom!! That can be dissuasive.

That is only if you need to shoot...ie fear for your life...or your family's......yada yada yada

racking the pump at night can be very dissuasive. :D

Fail-Safe

08-26-08, 14:16

Across the average room....#6 shot (rabbit loads) will have the same terminal results as 00 buck...with less penetration.

This is absolutely false.

You cant have the same terminal results with less penetration.

Folks, stop the madness. Do not use birdshot for defensive purposes. Use loads that were intended for humans, not waterfowl. Penetration is crucial, the pellets must penetrate deep enough to at the very disrupt the vital organs, or better yet destroy them. Birdshot will not do this. Its too light, and lacks momentum to get where it needs to go. Birdshot can leave a nasty wound, but it is a flesh wound. Buckshot goes in deep it gets the organs that birdshot just cant.

Dont forget patterns. Birshot is designed to disperse rapidly to give a bird hunter a better chance at success. The person concerned with self and home defense need not worry about his feathery adversary trying to gun him and his family down, he needs to worry about the evil human being, and much more common human beingS. Proper buckshot loads, especially those that use the excellent FliteControl wad(Federal Tactical, Hornady TAP) have a tendency hold a very tight pattern. Some shotguns can have a pattern of less that a foot at 20 yards.

Worried about overpenetration? Use a carbine chambered in a 5.56x45/.223Rem. Use a good bullet, not an FMJ. I'm sure this board has gone over the virtues of a rifle caliber carbine versus a shotgun for home defense many times, so I wont delve off into that.

Jay Cunningham

08-26-08, 14:34

This is absolutely false.

You cant have the same terminal results with less penetration.

Folks, stop the madness. Do not use birdshot for defensive purposes. Use loads that were intended for humans, not waterfowl. Penetration is crucial, the pellets must penetrate deep enough to at the very disrupt the vital organs, or better yet destroy them. Birdshot will not do this. Its too light, and lacks momentum to get where it needs to go. Birdshot can leave a nasty wound, but it is a flesh wound. Buckshot goes in deep it gets the organs that birdshot just cant.

Dont forget patterns. Birshot is designed to disperse rapidly to give a bird hunter a better chance at success. The person concerned with self and home defense need not worry about his feathery adversary trying to gun him and his family down, he needs to worry about the evil human being, and much more common human beingS. Proper buckshot loads, especially those that use the excellent FliteControl wad(Federal Tactical, Hornady TAP) have a tendency hold a very tight pattern. Some shotguns can have a pattern of less that a foot at 20 yards.

Worried about overpenetration? Use a carbine chambered in a 5.56x45/.223Rem. Use a good bullet, not an FMJ. I'm sure this board has gone over the virtues of a rifle caliber carbine versus a shotgun for home defense many times, so I wont delve off into that.

Listen to this man!

FlyAndFight

08-26-08, 15:58

This is absolutely false.

...The person concerned with self and home defense need not worry about his feathery adversary trying to gun him and his family down...

I found this both accurate and funny! :D

jjc155

08-26-08, 19:59

Fail-Safe

08-26-08, 22:48

My 1187 police model (8 round tube) has the first 4 rounds coming out as
0000Buck shot and the next 4 are federal tactical slugs. extra rounds ride in side saddle type shell holder and my speed feed stock.

Less likely to blow through dry wall with the Buck and the slugs are incase I have to blow through dry wall or my kitchen bar and island if bad guy digs in for a fight.

The furtherest shot in my house would be from end of the hall to the opposite corner of diningroom which is just under 15yards.

J-

No offense partner, I'm not picking on you:

But this "candycaneing" a mag tube, or "loading by anticipation" is asinine. Stick with one type of round only, all the way through the mag tube. The last thing you are going to think about in a home defense scenario is what round is coming up. Chances are you wont remember how many rounds you fired, much less that you will even think about. Mr Badguy is going to stop his evil deeds while you look around to see what color your shotgun hulls are on the ground, and how many there are.

If you are going to use a side saddle, which I dont really dig, thats where you hang your slugs. It bears repeating, your mag tube should be stoked with the same round all the way through. It should also be chambered. Stop giving away your position by going Hollywood in Bum****, Arkansas by racking the bolt, or working the pump.

Make no mistake about buckshot. It will pass through sheetrock, lumber, and insulation the same way a birthday caked-up 8 your old passes through gift wrap. With ease. Your furniture, for the most part, is no obstacle to buck, and thats fine. I've never met a Broyhill that will keep me from stoping Mr Badguy's devious aggressions. If buckshot has to meet great great granny's antique china hut, it will quickly turn Mr Badguys cover into concealment. What do you do, Keanu? You shoot the furniture.

That said, understand that buckshot does have a risk. If you miss, it will keep on trucking(cue Eddie Kendricks). Realize that if a round is going to reach the vital organs, major blood bearing vessels, and better yet, the CNS, its gonna go through walls. So take the time to practice. Aim your fire. Reload under stress. You'd attend a carbine course, so attend a shotgun course.

As for slugs, I'm not a huge fan of them. They arent going through many vests. If the fight moves outside, you should wave goodbye to the fight. The slim possibility that you would engage an automobile f is one where slugs may be needed, but because its remote, thats why you stoke your side saddle with them, and practice emergancy reloads, this goes back to get some training. Then again, this proves why a carbine is superior to a shotgun for HD. You can limit the overpenetration risks, you can breach armor, you can engage multiple assailants, you can reload faster, you can defeat barriers, etc.

Protector

08-27-08, 07:30

Originally Posted by BussLuckey
Across the average room....#6 shot (rabbit loads) will have the same terminal results as 00 buck...with less penetration.

This is absolutely false.

You cant have the same terminal results with less penetration.

Folks, stop the madness. Do not use birdshot for defensive purposes. Use loads that were intended for humans, not waterfowl. Penetration is crucial, the pellets must penetrate deep enough to at the very disrupt the vital organs, or better yet destroy them. Birdshot will not do this. Its too light, and lacks momentum to get where it needs to go. Birdshot can leave a nasty wound, but it is a flesh wound. Buckshot goes in deep it gets the organs that birdshot just cant.

Dont forget patterns. Birshot is designed to disperse rapidly to give a bird hunter a better chance at success. The person concerned with self and home defense need not worry about his feathery adversary trying to gun him and his family down, he needs to worry about the evil human being, and much more common human beingS. Proper buckshot loads, especially those that use the excellent FliteControl wad(Federal Tactical, Hornady TAP) have a tendency hold a very tight pattern. Some shotguns can have a pattern of less that a foot at 20 yards.

Worried about overpenetration? Use a carbine chambered in a 5.56x45/.223Rem. Use a good bullet, not an FMJ. I'm sure this board has gone over the virtues of a rifle caliber carbine versus a shotgun for home defense many times, so I wont delve off into that.

#6 shot can be messy, but does not have the same penetration nor effect as 00 Buck. See videos below:

#6 Bird shot at 30 feet.
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=6Birdshot.flv
Results:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=6Birdshotview.flv

00 Buck at 30 feet:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=Fed00Buck.flv
Results:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=Fed00Buckview.flv

Hornady 00 Buck TAP FPD (For Personal Defense) uses a flite control wad:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=HornadyTap00Buck.flv
Results:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n408/tedanddirk/Ted/shotguns/?action=view&current=HornadyTap00Buckview.flv

Birdshot might mess a guy up at close distance, but will not have the same effect as 00 Buck at the same distance!!!

RWK

08-27-08, 08:36

Folks, stop the madness. Do not use birdshot for defensive purposes. Use loads that were intended for humans, not waterfowl.

Yes, but, buckshot is for, well... deer. ;) Does anyone make 00 peopleshot?

What if the bad guys are wearing down-filled jackets? Wouldn't the obvious choice be birdshot...? :D

Robb Jensen

08-27-08, 08:42

Yes, but, buckshot is for, well... deer. ;) Does anyone make 00 peopleshot?

What if the bad guys are wearing down-filled jackets? Wouldn't the obvious choice be birdshot...? :D

A 12ga 3.5" 1-7/8oz of No 4 Hevishot out of a 26" Benelli SBE would do well....;)
That's what I use on turkeys.

RWK

08-27-08, 12:37

A 12ga 3.5" 1-7/8oz of No 4 Hevishot out of a 26" Benelli SBE would do well....;)
That's what I use on turkeys.

I tried to come up with a snappy comeback about turkeys but, there's a dearth of turkey material out there. I'm at a loss. :p

Seriously though, with all of the available information about the unsuitability of birdshot for serious anti-personnel use, I'm surprised that the myth and lore of #6 persists.

Fail-Safe

08-27-08, 21:02

Yes, but, buckshot is for, well... deer. ;) Does anyone make 00 peopleshot?

What if the bad guys are wearing down-filled jackets? Wouldn't the obvious choice be birdshot...? :D

Yes they do, its called Federal Tactical or Hornady TAP

AS for the down filled jackets, a simple duck call will remove those.

casio02478

08-29-08, 08:47

000 2.75in shell. Get the reduce recoil if you can for a faster second shot.

Gomez

09-13-08, 22:27

While I know some guys have gone to 'slug only' in a defensive shotgun, I just don't see it. Turning a shotgun into a heavy recoiling, low capacity, manually operated rifle doesn't interest me in the least.

I'm a fan of #1B as DocGKR mentioned earlier.

Shawn Dodson wrote about the virtues of #1B about ten years ago (http://firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm).
[Same article that Paladin already linked too.]

And, I believe, that Gus Coty's article on #1B in the IWBA WBR predates Shawn's piece.

The only hangup with #1B is that none of the ammo houses have ever bothered to offer a reduced recoil load.

Here's the gel test data on #1B (http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_1_rem/gelatin_buckshot_1_rem.html) from the site that Rik posted.

If I can't get #1B from Remington or Winchester, I go with the Hornady TAP [blue hull], which is a licensed copy of the Choke Buckshot design , and, if I can't get that I go with the Remington 8 pellet Reduced Recoil 00B.

Steel

09-16-08, 11:12

I use the low recoil 00 Buck Shot. Enough power to stop a Intruder but not enough to over penetrate.

ccap74

09-16-08, 20:10

From: Firearms Tactical Institute
Web Site Index and Navigation Center

Tactical Briefs #10, October 1998

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition

For home defense, a shotgun is superior to a handgun in terms of being able to stop a violent intruder as quickly as possible. A reliable, well-made, pump-action shotgun can usually be purchased for less than the cost of a handgun of comparable quality. Also, inexpensive birdshot ammunition, typically used for training applications, is about three-fourths the cost, round for round, of comparable handgun ammunition.

Most people typically choose a shotgun for home defense for one of three general reasons: 1) to minimize wall penetration to reduce the danger to innocent third parties in case of a missed shot, 2) to maximize wound trauma to stop a vicious assailant as quickly as possible, or 3) because a shotgun does not require as much skill as a handgun to put lead on target.

If you're considering a shotgun for home defense or already have one, we suggest you give some serious thought to attending a one or two day "defensive shotgun" training course from a reputable shooting school. (We have a few schools listed on our Links page.) It's one thing to be armed with a well-equipped, high-tech shotgun and premium personal defense ammunition, but if you're not a skilled shotgun operator, you're the weakest link in your last-ditch home defense weapon system.

Shotgun Pellet Wound Ballistics
A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

Shotgun pellets are classified into two general categories: 1) birdshot, of which individual pellets are typically less than .20 caliber in diameter, and 2) buckshot, which varies in diameter from .24 caliber to .36 caliber.

Table 1 and Table 2 list nominal size and weight information about lead birdshot and buckshot, respectively.

Table 1. Lead Birdshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains) Approximate # of
Pellets per Ounce
12 .05 .18 2385
11 .06 .25 1750
9 .08 .75 585
8 1/2 .085 .88 485
8 .09 1.07 410
7 1/2 .095 1.25 350
6 .11 1.95 225
5 .12 2.58 170
4 .13 3.24 135
2 .15 4.86 90
BB .18 8.75 50

Table 2. Lead Buckshot

Shot
Number Pellet Diameter
(Inches) Average Pellet
Weight (Grains)
4 .24 20.6
3 .25 23.4
2 .27 29.4
1 .30 40.0
0 .32 48.3
00 .33 53.8
000 .36 68.0

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

Federal Personal Defense Shotshell
Federal Cartridge Company offers reduced recoil Personal Defense Shotshells in 12 gauge and 20 gauge. Both are loaded with #2 lead birdshot. According to Federal's 1998 catalog, the shotshells propel their pellet payloads at a velocity of 1140 fps.

(Note: We tested terminal performance of the 12 gauge Federal Personal Defense Shotshell, and published our results in Tactical Briefs, January 1999. Click here to read our product review.)

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

20 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition Recommendations
We're unaware of any ammunition company who offers a 20 gauge shotshell that is loaded with #1 buckshot. The largest shot size commercially available that we know of is number 2 buck.

From a strict wound ballistics standpoint, we feel the Federal Classic 3-inch 20 gauge Magnum number 2 buckshot cartridge is the best choice. It contains 18 pellets of number 2 buckshot in a plastic shotcup with granulated plastic shot buffer.

However, the Federal Classic load might produce too much recoil for some people. Given this consideration, Remington's Premier Buckshot 2 ¾-inch 20 gauge number 3 buckshot cartridge is the next best choice. This load contains 20 pieces of nickel-plated, hardened lead shot that is buffered to reduce pellet deformation from post ignition acceleration and terminal impact. The Remington buckshot load will probably produce the tightest shot patterns in 20 gauge shotguns.

Third place is Winchester's 3-inch 20 gauge Magnum number 3 buckshot cartridge, which contains 24 pieces of buffered, copper-plated, hardened lead shot.

Shotgun Slugs, Flechettes and Exotic Ammunition for Home Defense?
Unless you live on acreage and anticipate engaging bad guys at distances beyond 25 yards, shotgun slugs are not a good choice for home defense, because of their enormous capability to over-penetrate a human body and common building materials.

Some shotgun cartridges are loaded with flechettes. These are small, steel, pointed dart-like projectiles with aft stabilization fins, and are commonly referred to as "nails with tails." The low cross sectional area of a single flechette, combined with the small amount of flechettes that can be loaded into a shotshell, makes them an inferior choice for home defense when compared to buckshot.

Also, according to Second Chance Body Armor Company, flechettes are not effective against soft body armor, if this is a particular mission requirement for your ammunition. Steel shot also is ineffective against soft body armor.

There are other various exotic shotshells that are best classified as gimmicks. These include rubber buckshot, bean bags, steel washers, rock salt, "Dragon's Breath," bird bombs, ceramic slugs, "bolo" projectiles and so on. The efficacy of these loads is questionable at best, and we advise you to avoid them altogether for this simple reason.

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

End Notes
The term "Magnum" when applied to shotshells means "more shot." Magnum shotshells usually propel their pellets at a lower velocity than a standard shotshell.

Shotgun barrel length does not affect our shotshell recommendions.

References
Cotey, Gus J.: "Number 1 Buckshot, the Number 1 Choice." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 10-18, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: "Technical Comment on Buckshot Loads." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4), 19-21, 1996.

MacPherson, Duncan: Bullet Penetration, Ballistic Publications, El Segundo, California, 1994.

DiMaio, Vincent J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc., New York, New York, 1985, pp. 163-208.

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BlueForce

10-15-08, 15:05

The patterns people are getting with the new Federal FLITECONTROL 00 buck, out of cylinder bore shotguns, are extraordinary. This new technology appears to be a game changer for the shotgun, extending the effective range by a considerable amount.

However, the "12 Gauge, 2 3/4", Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pellets w/ FLITECONTROL Wad, 1145 fps, 00 Buck (LE132-00)" load is being restricted by the manufacturer to LE only, and therefore is only available to the public under unusual circumstances.

I did notice, though, that Federal is offering another round to the public called "Federal Premium Vital Shok, 12 Gauge, 2 3/4", 9 pellets w/ FLITECONTROL Wad, 1145 fps, #00 Copper Plated Low Recoil Lead Buckshot (PFC15400LR)".

I contacted Federal to inquire about the differences between these two rounds. They advised that "The difference between the two loads is different hulls and different powder".

Well, the hulls have different markings so you would expect that difference. The only real difference then would appear to be the powder. Both loads are at 1145 fps, so they seem to be functionally interchangeable. Or at least very nearly so.

dbrowne1

10-15-08, 16:32

The Winchester #1 Buck 20 pellet 2.75 inch magnum load continues to look good to me for the home defense role. It's not going to win any awards for tightest pattern or lowest recoil, but its wounding ability is unbeatable and it patterns more than acceptably in my guns from 10 yards and in.

The Federal 8 pellet OO buck Flite Control load is very impressive. In my 14" mod choke 870, it nearly always keeps all 8 on a typical paper plate at 20 yards, and inside of 15 yards I would have zero concern about a stray pellet. Its recoil is very mild.

For a general purpose shotgun that may see use outside the typical short ranges of interior home defense, the flite control loads certainly make sense, as does the carriage of slugs and sighting the gun in with slugs.

RWK

10-16-08, 12:29

However, the "12 Gauge, 2 3/4", Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pellets w/ FLITECONTROL Wad, 1145 fps, 00 Buck (LE132-00)" load is being restricted by the manufacturer to LE only, and therefore is only available to the public under unusual circumstances.

Actually, it's fairly easy to get: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php?cPath=120_259_205&sort=2a&filter_id=36

BlueForce

10-16-08, 12:44

Actually, it's fairly easy to get: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php?cPath=120_259_205&sort=2a&filter_id=36

Oh, well I'm glad to see that. Apparently Federal's plan is not working. I really hate it when a manufacturer tries to "restrict" a perfectly lawful product to only certain markets. I don't understand the motive behind it -- certainly not profit. And then you find they offer something essentially the same to the public. Obviously some kind of marketing strategy, but one I don't get. Maybe they hope LE agencies will buy MORE if they think it is exclusive and superior. Anyway, FYI, I checked around and the other version is available at Gander Mountain stores.

BlueForce

10-16-08, 12:48

Actually, it's fairly easy to get: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php?cPath=120_259_205&sort=2a&filter_id=36

Follow-up. From this web site:

"We got this ammo because we ordered it for a police department and they cancelled the order, so we can now sell it to anyone."

So this will be a limited supply.

RWK

10-16-08, 13:06

I recently sampled and did a side-by-side comparison of every tactical buckshot load offered by Federal, Winchester and Hornady: every combination of 8 pellet, 9 pellet, low recoil, and/or full power. I patterned two rounds of each load at 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards using a Remington 870P 18.5".

The loads that did not use the FliteControl wad patterned as one would expect of any typical 00 load - about a 24" pattern at 25 yds. The dispersion of the shot was uniform and there was no discernible difference between the loads. Low recoil, full power, 8 pellet, 9 pellet - no difference between them.

The loads that did use the FliteControl wad (Federal and Hornady TAP) were a whole 'nother story. The tightness of the patterns was amazing. At 10 yds the patterns were about 4 - 5". At 25 yds they were about 12". All of the FliteControl loads patterned almost identically. At 25 yds I noticed a "doughnut" pattern in the shot dispersion of the full power loads. The pattern density was very light in the center of the pattern (2 - 3 pellets within about 5" of point of aim). The shot was uniformly spread at the outer edges of the pattern. The low recoil FliteControl loads all showed very uniform pellet dispersion within their patterns.

I'm sold on the FliteControl buckshot. The load I selected to use is the Federal Tactical Low Recoil 9 pellet (LE132). The Hornady LE TAP Low Recoil load performed identically to the Federal load but, the Hornady ammo is much more expensive. I selected the low recoil load vs. the full power load based upon the pattern results. The "doughnut" effect was enough to sway my decision.

RWK

10-16-08, 13:08

Follow-up. From this web site:

"We got this ammo because we ordered it for a police department and they cancelled the order, so we can now sell it to anyone."

So this will be a limited supply.

They say that all the time with the "LE only" ammo. I've bought cases of "LE only" ammo from ATG. Their police-canceled orders seem unending... ;)

BlueForce

10-16-08, 13:14

They say that all the time with the "LE only" ammo. I've bought cases of "LE only" ammo from ATG. Their police-canceled orders seem unending... ;)

Excellent. Too bad they ordered so much...

Copis

10-16-08, 17:30

hello,

I wonder if anybody has shot FliteControl thru a Vang Comp barrel?....Do you think it will pattern even tighter?

Bill

BlueForce

10-16-08, 17:38

I would be curious to know that, too. But one thing's for sure, it basically does the Vang Comp job on patterning from a cylinder bore barrel just by changing shells.

Copis

10-16-08, 17:46

I guess I should get my fat ass some FliteControl and run it thru my VangComp :D

BlueForce

10-16-08, 17:50

You might be able to get out to 200 yds. :D

Fail-Safe

10-17-08, 00:40

Please, dont use birdshot of anykind for SD/HD. Use that shit on waterfowl, not people.

RWK

10-17-08, 06:48

I wonder if anybody has shot FliteControl thru a Vang Comp barrel?....Do you think it will pattern even tighter?

Good question, if only for academic purposes. I'm not sure that I'd really want an even tighter pattern. It is, after all, a shotgun...

BlueForce

10-17-08, 07:34

The tighter it gets, the more mandatory ghost rings become.

cz7

10-20-08, 22:50

Fail-Safe

10-21-08, 00:35

Birdshot may be "nasty", but thats not what to look for in a defensive round. I care not what a rounds damage is on the surface, I wont stick pellets deep in there, to see whats going on in there!

Caliber0

10-21-08, 11:10

I keep my Mossberg 590 loaded with Hornady TAP Personal Defense Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot.

RWK

10-21-08, 14:42

time on target is very importent -lower recoil means more shots in the target -lead #2 bird /#4 buck is very nasty, also what kind of choke you using too -the best way is to range your house the longest hall way -lets say 20 feet -ok -find the best shot under app. 10'' at 20' - i seen the scene a b and e guy hit by #2 at 15 feet with 1 shot in the chest -opps very dead ! also heavy cloth or feathers or fur all do in light bird loads too steel is very iffy at best known to lose range faster!

If reduced recoil is your concern, this would be much better than going to birdshot or very light buckshot: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-low-recoil-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot. There's also no need to worry about chokes.

BlueForce

10-21-08, 14:58

If reduced recoil is your concern, this would be much better than going to birdshot or very light buckshot: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/25rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-low-recoil-9-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-buckshot. There's also no need to worry about chokes.

I just did my part to reduce that unending supply... :cool:

BlueForce

10-27-08, 22:21

I guess I should get my fat ass some FliteControl and run it thru my VangComp :D

Copis, did you ever try that FliteControl in your VangComp?

cronus5116

11-09-08, 20:16

I think that 2 3/4 00 is more that enough to do some serious damage. Slugs are to prone to go though walls especially if you miss a stud. ( no not me :D )

Chris Sanchez

01-24-09, 01:29

Depending on the price and the location when and where I needed to buy shotshells, these two are the best that a shotgunner can buy in this side of the world, IMHO.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp146/USP9/WinchestervsRC.jpg

Ofcourse I also test my ammo in water jugs (complete perforation on the third is considered acceptable) which I fired within 1-yard before I will utilize them for home defense.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp146/USP9/RC-411-0.jpg

3 pellets recovered on fourth jug (12-in<x<16-in equivalent in calibrated gelatin)
1 pellet recovered on third jug (less than 12-in penetration)
the rest existed sideways.

BlueForce

01-24-09, 22:40

Chris Sanchez

01-25-09, 06:25

I'd like to see someone do some experimentation with Dead Coyote for defensive applications:

http://www.hevishot.com/products_dead_coyote.html

Over 50 .20 caliber hevi-shot balls at 1300 fps in very tight patterns. With much deeper penetration than lead, due to the extreme density. Should hit like an entire box of .22 Magnum striking the target simultaneously with each pull of the trigger.

I did test a load almost similar to that. This was the RC-4 "6/0" load composed of 32 .22cal pellets. I ask about the antimony content of these pellets and answer was 4%, and thats quite hard. All pellets were stopped at the second jug (fired within 1-yard distance from the first jug), which translates to less than 8-inches in calibrated gelatin. Btw, before this test, I also subscribe to such concept, but found out its only good in theory.

I am only guessing here, but probably the weight and the minute size of the pellets makes them inadequate to reach the vitals of any trespasser. My only suggestion is to stick to 00-buck for home defense.

I assume the recoil of the ammo you suggested may be on the heavy side, why not try 3-in Winchester Super-X 15-pellet 00-buck instead.

BlueForce

01-25-09, 10:24

I did test a load almost similar to that. This was the RC-4 "6/0" load composed of 32 .22cal pellets. I ask about the antimony content of these pellets and answer was 4%, and thats quite hard. All pellets were stopped at the second jug (fired within 1-yard distance from the first jug), which translates to less than 8-inches in calibrated gelatin. Btw, before this test, I also subscribe to such concept, but found out its only good in theory.

I am only guessing here, but probably the weight and the minute size of the pellets makes them inadequate to reach the vitals of any trespasser. My only suggestion is to stick to 00-buck for home defense.

I assume the recoil of the ammo you suggested may be on the heavy side, why not try 3-in Winchester Super-X 15-pellet 00-buck instead.

However the physics change quite a bit with the increased density of tungsten. You have more energy being projected against smaller surface area. The same reason we use depleted Uranium in our anti-armor penetrators. I would expect a significant difference over lead of any alloy. Hunters have experienced that in the field. Would be worth trying to find out.

Cruncher Block

01-25-09, 19:38

Depending on the price and the location when and where I needed to buy shotshells, these two are the best that a shotgunner can buy in this side of the world, IMHO.

Is the one on the left Winchester Magnum 00 Buck? It patterned surprisingly well out of my 870.

A bit punishing to shoot but I'd be willing to use it.

Chris Sanchez

01-25-09, 22:58

Yes. After 12 to 15 of this type fired at the range, I have to pause for a few minutes. Its painful to the shoulders and arms.

On the right is the RC-4 from Italy. Uk source stated it has 4% antimony. The distributor here stated it has 5%. True or not, I doubt the statements, but still it patterns well on my IC barrelled shotgun, and penetrates adequately in my test.

Chris Sanchez

01-25-09, 22:59

Yes. After 12 to 15 of this type fired at the range, I have to pause for a few minutes. Its painful to the shoulders and arms.

On the right is the RC-4 "11/0" (slightly larger and heavier than 00-buck) from Italy. Uk source stated it has 4% antimony. The distributor here stated it has 5%. True or not, I doubt the statements, but still it patterns well on my IC barrelled shotgun, and penetrates adequately in my test.

crob1

01-26-09, 11:03

So what is a good compromise? Wanting maximum stopping power, combined with minimum over-penatration, what's a guy to choose in 12G?

Chris Sanchez

01-26-09, 20:43

No universal answer. In my own subjective opinion oo-buck is the answer. If I am in your country (which has a lot of choices with regards to brand and types of shotshells), I will be contended on any standard 9-pellet 00-buck loads (Winchester Super-X, Remington Express, or Federal Quik-shok F127)). As long it will have 6 to 8 inch diameter pattern when fired from 10 yards, it is acceptable.

Then someone might ask why not those Federal Tactical loads that yields very tight patterns and have hardened copper-coated pellets? I like a little dispersion for more hit probability to a moving home intruder. Living in urban areas, IMHO, targets up to 10-yards is realistic for most home defense purposes. And, the plain-jane lead pellets will deform more easily which limits penetration and its subsequent deformation may add their diameter a bit.

Overpenetration? I would worry that far less than a pellet that missed the target completely, so be aware where the pellets will most likely go everytime you fire.

Cruncher Block

01-26-09, 21:33

So what is a good compromise? Wanting maximum stopping power, combined with minimum over-penatration, what's a guy to choose in 12G?

I'm not an instructor or ballistics expert... just a guy on the internet.

But I don't think a load exists that we can expect to be effective from different angles, against attackers of different sizes, while also being guaranteed to never over-penetrate or under-penetrate. There are just too many variables.

If the concern is that a given load will penetrate drywall, I think the laws of physics make that an unresolvable dilemma. If it won't penetrate drywall, it won't be effective against a threat. Choose something that maximizes predictable behavior and hits, then practice with it until bored. That "something" might not turn out to be a shotgun, either.

The most convincing arguments I've read for defensive shotgun loads start with a tight-patterning 00 Buck as the default. I think Shawn Dodson at firearmstactical.com has proposed a hardened 1 Buck as being the optimum balance of penetration and pellet count but I've never seen a load matching his specs on a shelf to buy.

Jack_Stroker

01-27-09, 11:34

I'm not an instructor or ballistics expert... just a guy on the internet.

But I don't think a load exists that we can expect to be effective from different angles, against attackers of different sizes, while also being guaranteed to never over-penetrate or under-penetrate. There are just too many variables.

If the concern is that a given load will penetrate drywall, I think the laws of physics make that an unresolvable dilemma. If it won't penetrate drywall, it won't be effective against a threat. Choose something that maximizes predictable behavior and hits, then practice with it until bored. That "something" might not turn out to be a shotgun, either.

The most convincing arguments I've read for defensive shotgun loads start with a tight-patterning 00 Buck as the default. I think Shawn Dodson at firearmstactical.com has proposed a hardened 1 Buck as being the optimum balance of penetration and pellet count but I've never seen a load matching his specs on a shelf to buy.

I agree with this. If it won't penetrate drywall, it absolutely won't penetrate in human tissues enough to stop a threat.

Ed L.

01-27-09, 17:45

Across the average room....#6 shot (rabbit loads) will have the same terminal results as 00 buck...with less penetration.

Not possible

crob1

01-27-09, 18:09

Cool. Thanks. I'll stick with 00 Buck in my 870 then.

tpd223

01-27-09, 22:50

Although I've seen 4 buck used on people successfully, I prefer OO buck.

Some of the pellets will likely exit the back side of your bad guy, but they will be mostly spent by then.

I used to really worry about overpenetration, now after years of seeing our OISs with various ammunition, I really don't worry about it, it's a non-issue with almost all of the available police/defensive type ammunition.

shooting4life

02-04-09, 18:00

Chris Sanchez

02-07-09, 02:47

Ideally #1 would be the best of both worlds, penetration like the 00 and lots of pellets like the #4. I live in a condo so I have people around me in almost all directions, I keep mine 590A1 loaded with #4 with slugs 4 slugs and 2 000 in a side saddle. If I did not have neighbors I would go with #1.

No intent to start an argument, but for clarity, the papers in IWBA suggested that No.1 buckshot must be "hardened", that is, has a high antimony content and pellets must be also be "smoothened and rounded" well for adequate penetration. AFAIK, no existing No.1-buck load, with those characteristics, are presently available to the market. In fact the paper even suggested that a "reduced load" (containing 14 instead of 16 pellets in a typical 2-3/4-inch standard load) be applied. No.4-buck, even with the 41-pellet copper-plated load, may still be inferior to standard 9-pellet 00-buck load as far as adequate and consistent penetration is concern. 00-buck is the optimum sized buckshot for self-defense regardless of surroundings, IMHO. 000-buck size is slightly larger, but still, you have reduced number of pellets. If you want accuracy beyond 10-yards, that's were the slugs come into play.

blktie8

02-07-09, 07:31

mtk

02-09-09, 14:27

I have been reading ,and shooting longer,mostly 1911 colt and bushnaster

Haven't bought any shotgun ammo in some time .
Just wondering where you can purchase the Federal Tacital low recoil buck.

Blktie8

I can't help you, but if you find a place, post it as I've been looking for it for a while myself. AmmunitionToGo.com used to carry it, but they've been out of stock for a while now.

blktie8

02-09-09, 15:03

I can't help you, but if you find a place, post it as I've been looking for it for a while myself. AmmunitionToGo.com used to carry it, but they've been out of stock for a while now.

Thanks
I'll keep looking
John

RWK

02-10-09, 17:57

I have been reading ,and shooting longer,mostly 1911 colt and bushnaster

Haven't bought any shotgun ammo in some time .
Just wondering where you can purchase the Federal Tacital low recoil buck.

Blktie8

Supplies seem to have dried up. A major PD in my area is having difficulty getting shipments in.

Disciple

02-11-09, 02:37

So what is a good compromise? Wanting maximum stopping power, combined with minimum over-penatration, what's a guy to choose in 12G?

What became of the PolyShok shells I read about a few years ago? As I recall they were designed to penetrate a single wall and then turn to dust, yet be effective antipersonnel ordnance.

They still have a website (http://www.polyshok.com/), but they also say mil/leo sales only.

Jack_Stroker

02-11-09, 10:10

What became of the PolyShok shells I read about a few years ago? As I recall they were designed to penetrate a single wall and then turn to dust, yet be effective antipersonnel ordnance.

They still have a website (http://www.polyshok.com/), but they also say mil/leo sales only.

Well if it won't penetrate drywall more than once it isn't going to penetrate human tissue effectively enough. I don't see any way for something to penetrate only one wall and still be an effective personal defense round.

Disciple

02-11-09, 12:49

I believe it is basically a breaching round that has been stabilized for accurate flight. It should work much better than bird shot, but of course it isn't 00 either.

Jack_Stroker

02-11-09, 14:56

I believe it is basically a breaching round that has been stabilized for accurate flight. It should work much better than bird shot, but of course it isn't 00 either.

Well, I can agree with that. Still i wouldn't want to use it for self-defense.

RWK

02-13-09, 20:10

I have been reading ,and shooting longer,mostly 1911 colt and bushnaster

Haven't bought any shotgun ammo in some time .
Just wondering where you can purchase the Federal Tacital low recoil buck.

Blktie8

I just checked ammunitiontogo.com a few minutes ago. They seem to have it back in stock. Grab it while you can!

SeriousStudent

02-13-09, 22:09

I just checked ammunitiontogo.com a few minutes ago. They seem to have it back in stock. Grab it while you can!

Thanks for the tip! :D My particular 870 really likes that particular load. I grabbed another 100 rounds.

crob1

02-14-09, 15:36

After seeing a demonstration on Personal Defense TV where 00 Buck shot went through 2 simulated interior walls, and exited the simulated exterior wall, I decided to get some #4 Buck shot.

Can anyone point me to data for comparing .223 vs. buck shot concerning over-penetration/performance?

RWK

02-14-09, 16:54

...demonstration on Personal Defense TV where 00 Buck shot went through 2 simulated interior walls, and exited the simulated exterior wall...

What load was it?

I decided to get some #4 Buck shot.

Why? You plan to miss a lot...?

crob1

02-14-09, 16:59

They didn't say. It was at Gunsite. They shot birdshot, 00 Buck and a slug. The birdshot went all the way through the first wall and was stopped by the first layer of drywall on the second wall. The other loads went all the way through all three walls.

I don't plan on missing-but hey you never know. I'm not perfect.

Here's a link to the video.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1550041450/bclid1388771040/bctid1847316581

That didn't show the segment I'm talking about. I can't find it. Figures.

Goober

02-16-09, 00:05

Jack_Stroker

02-16-09, 22:35

I use the Remington Law Enforcement Reduced Recoil 00 buckshot. It is has less penetration of walls but still packs a punch with faster follow up shots. My first round however is a less-lethal stinger rubber buck shot load. It is great, takes out the baddies, and if they are on the other side of a car you can bounce them under it and take out their legs. It also is less likely to kill (anything moving that fast that close has the potential to kill) but will still take them out of commission. My television is not worth a person's life but if that load doesn't take them out then the 7 shots of 00 behind it will.
Well, that's my 2 cents.

-Goober

I can't agree with this type of thinking. Someone who breaks into your house isn't necessarily just there for your TV. You have no way of knowing if they'll be a rapist, thief, or murderer. You have no way of knowing what their intentions are. The best way to deal with them is by using decisive force. I've seen guys get hit with less than lethal options, mace, pepper spray, tasers and even bean bags and rubber bullets fail to incapacitate and immobilize aggressive individuals. If someone breaks into my home, I will take them out as fast and as decisively as I can. If they are armed with a knife, baseball bat, or firearm, they damn sure won't be concerned with less than lethal options against me. I won't be concerned with less than lethal options again them. If they survive, great for them. If not, well they should have made better choices in life. I will use deadly force whenever someone violates my home. I don't care why they are there and I won't bother to find out.

nemohunter

02-17-09, 06:18

after reading this thread for a bit it seems most everybodywould "go huntin" the intruder. why is that? he's on your turf and he's lost. just wait around for him to come to you. he will if he's any kind of thief. then deal with it. activly seeking an intruder could get you in trouble. IE you went looking for a fight. i say this without having kids so that would change the scenario a bit for me, but they would be in the bed room next to mine. BTW the handgun is what you use to fight your way to the shotgun or rifle. if you have an intruder around here you can expect to have him for 15 mins or better if you dial 911 right away.

RWK

02-17-09, 07:25

after reading this thread for a bit it seems most everybodywould "go huntin" the intruder. why is that? he's on your turf and he's lost. just wait around for him to come to you. he will if he's any kind of thief. then deal with it.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that you know the "terrain" better than they do so, why let them get their bearings?

activly seeking an intruder could get you in trouble. IE you went looking for a fight.

How in the world do you come to that conclusion? :confused:

i say this without having kids so that would change the scenario

Exactly. Single folks have some "luxuries" in these circumstances that those with families don't.

Goober

02-17-09, 11:29

Not having children I have the luxury of not having to go out and find the bad guy. I hear a noise I call the cops (my bedroom door is always locked at night), grab my shotgun, and take it from there. Personally I don't want to kill a person. Granted every situation must be analyzed at the moment it happens. If they intend to harm me or my loved ones then they are gone. No questions. The rubber buckshot is also no joke. Under 20 ft it will still kill and since I live in an apartment complex there is no area greater than 20 ft. After that the buckshot will end anything.

-Goober

nemohunter

02-17-09, 21:55

We dont have castle law here in MO. you basicly HAVE to be in a life or death situation to justify force in the home.

RWK

02-18-09, 07:01

We dont have castle law here in MO. you basicly HAVE to be in a life or death situation to justify force in the home.

You might want to check into that. I believe Missouri has had a "Castle Doctrine" law on the books, which includes a "stand your ground clause", since the later half of 2007.

THT

02-18-09, 07:08

I went out and patterned my M590A1 as well as my FIL's M590. We found that our shotguns, while both M590s, patterned differently.

http://www.tophattheater.net/pics/guns/buckshotresults.jpg

RWK

02-18-09, 07:42

I went out and patterned my M590A1 as well as my FIL's M590. We found that our shotguns, while both M590s, patterned differently.

Every shotgun will pattern differently to some degree. In addition to the difference in spread, the pattern density will vary, too. Pattern density being the dispersion of pellets in the pattern. Some shotguns/loads will give a more evenly-spread pattern, some may be lopsided, and others may exhibit a pattern that looks like a donut -- most pellets towards the outer edges of the pattern and only a few pellets in the center.

THT

02-18-09, 18:58

Every shotgun will pattern differently to some degree. In addition to the difference in spread, the pattern density will vary, too. Pattern density being the dispersion of pellets in the pattern. Some shotguns/loads will give a more evenly-spread pattern, some may be lopsided, and others may exhibit a pattern that looks like a donut -- most pellets towards the outer edges of the pattern and only a few pellets in the center.

I was really surprised at the difference considering we have what are more or less identical shotguns. Pattern density was also substantially different.

mtk

02-19-09, 11:00

I just checked ammunitiontogo.com a few minutes ago. They seem to have it back in stock. Grab it while you can!

Thanks for the tip. I've got a case of it on the way. ;)

mtk

02-26-09, 19:41

I just checked ammunitiontogo.com a few minutes ago. They seem to have it back in stock. Grab it while you can!

Did you get your ammo?

I got an email yesterday that it was back out of stock and did I want to substitute something else for it. :mad:

So no buckshot for me....

glazer1972

03-02-09, 11:23

00 or Brenneke 1 1/4 ounce slugs.

RWK

03-03-09, 18:13

Did you get your ammo?

I got an email yesterday that it was back out of stock and did I want to substitute something else for it. :mad:

So no buckshot for me....

I didn't order any myself. I already have a stash. Sorry to hear that you missed out.

STS

03-03-09, 18:20

I'm blessed (?) to work in a lower economic area where I get to go on lots of gunshot wounds. The shotgun is the choice of many in my area for home defense...and drive bys, and store protection, and robberies, you get the point.

I can tell you that birdshot plain SUCKS as a manstopper. It makes one hell of a mess and gives me tons of grief, but it just doesn't kill all that well. To date, the only fatality I have run on, that involved birdshot was a contact shot. The homeowner literally stuck the barrel right against the BG's chest as he pushed his way into the home. His insides were soup. He was DRT.

About a month ago, we ran on two guys who got in an argument with several guys in a car (real smart). Well one guy rolled down the window and fired off 8 rds of birdshot at the guys starting from about 5 feet away. The two victims turned and ran like hell, each was hit several times in the stomach, flanks, and back. Both survived. When we got there, blood was everywhere and they each looked like they had been hit by a cheese grader. One was missing his right eye, the other had his left testicle shot off. Neither had wounds with enough penetration to incapacitate. Both managed to run away down the street. Both survived and left Trauma several days later. I actually picked out several BB's from each.

If you are using a shotgun for HD, it means you have decided thats what you want to use to defend your life in a deadly encounter. Why would you want to limit your ability to do so with a less than effective round? Of course you can kill with birdshot - you can also kill with a .22LR. That doesn't mean I want to use one for HD. IMO, you want to cause the most damage possible with each shot. Overpenetration is what it is, you need to plan for it and act/shoot accordingly. Take it from someone who has to try and save the guy after he is shot. The more blood loss you cause, the quicker he is going down.

RWK

04-18-09, 18:09

FYI - ammunitiontogo.com is showing Federal LE133 (8-pellet, FliteControl) in stock.

dbrowne1

04-22-09, 13:18

FYI - ammunitiontogo.com is showing Federal LE133 (8-pellet, FliteControl) in stock.

Yup, I just picked up some more from them. This is great ammo at a very reasonable price for what you are getting. Recoil is very mild compared to other OO and #1 buck loads I have used and the pattern remains very tight out to at least 15 yards (under 3") out of a 14" gun.

Alaskapopo

04-25-09, 17:48

I prefer #4 birdshot. It should have a lethal range of say 20yards?

00 buck is very ideal for human targets. 00 shells have at least 9 projectiles. and if one projectile doesn't hit your target.... your neighbor 50yards away might get hit.

so for self defense. Id rather use #4 birdshot. less than ideal... anybody want to be shot with a #4 birdshot? :D

I have seen people in the Er who were very able to fight after being shot with bird shot. Its not a good load for anything but birds. Use at least 1 buck. I prefer 00 buck in Federals reduced recoil tactical variant. Anything that has adequate terminal performance will go thought your home. Deal with it and don't miss.
Pat

Alaskapopo

04-25-09, 17:55

No offense partner, I'm not picking on you:

But this "candycaneing" a mag tube, or "loading by anticipation" is asinine. Stick with one type of round only, all the way through the mag tube. The last thing you are going to think about in a home defense scenario is what round is coming up. Chances are you wont remember how many rounds you fired, much less that you will even think about. Mr Badguy is going to stop his evil deeds while you look around to see what color your shotgun hulls are on the ground, and how many there are.

If you are going to use a side saddle, which I dont really dig, thats where you hang your slugs. It bears repeating, your mag tube should be stoked with the same round all the way through. It should also be chambered. Stop giving away your position by going Hollywood in Bum****, Arkansas by racking the bolt, or working the pump.

Make no mistake about buckshot. It will pass through sheetrock, lumber, and insulation the same way a birthday caked-up 8 your old passes through gift wrap. With ease. Your furniture, for the most part, is no obstacle to buck, and thats fine. I've never met a Broyhill that will keep me from stoping Mr Badguy's devious aggressions. If buckshot has to meet great great granny's antique china hut, it will quickly turn Mr Badguys cover into concealment. What do you do, Keanu? You shoot the furniture.

That said, understand that buckshot does have a risk. If you miss, it will keep on trucking(cue Eddie Kendricks). Realize that if a round is going to reach the vital organs, major blood bearing vessels, and better yet, the CNS, its gonna go through walls. So take the time to practice. Aim your fire. Reload under stress. You'd attend a carbine course, so attend a shotgun course.

As for slugs, I'm not a huge fan of them. They arent going through many vests. If the fight moves outside, you should wave goodbye to the fight. The slim possibility that you would engage an automobile f is one where slugs may be needed, but because its remote, thats why you stoke your side saddle with them, and practice emergancy reloads, this goes back to get some training. Then again, this proves why a carbine is superior to a shotgun for HD. You can limit the overpenetration risks, you can breach armor, you can engage multiple assailants, you can reload faster, you can defeat barriers, etc.
Good post. Alternating loads only leads to one thing. Not knowing what is in the chamber when you pull the trigger in a high stress situation.
Pat

Caeser25

04-26-09, 17:03

TheLefty

04-26-09, 22:00

clearing your house wouldn't be defense, that's offense. Defensive would be hunkering down in a bedroom behind cover with the shotgun pointed at the door.

That depends on how you look at it. I get your point, but if you're intruding in my home with ill intentions, I consider it defense whether I have to look for you or not. You don't have to be hiding to defend yourself, your loved ones, and your home.

RWK

04-27-09, 08:05

clearing your house wouldn't be defense, that's offense. Defensive would be hunkering down in a bedroom behind cover with the shotgun pointed at the door.

Um... no. Locating and engaging an attacker with intent to minimize the damage their attack may cause is still defense.

WS6

04-30-09, 21:06

I prefer Winchester XX Supreme 2.75" 12-pellet plated and buffered OO Buckshot. For me, it patterns very evenly, and keeps 80-90% on a 14x20" target at 25 yards with a MOD choke from my M4S90.

Excellet stuff in my experience.

WS6

04-30-09, 21:07

Um... no. Locating and engaging an attacker with intent to minimize the damage their attack may cause is still defense.

Damn right it is. If they are in MY HOUSE with no right to be there, then it is defence. Period. Castle Doctrine FTW.

WS6

04-30-09, 21:08

Good post. Alternating loads only leads to one thing. Not knowing what is in the chamber when you pull the trigger in a high stress situation.
Pat

Or you can do what I do. Load the tube with something, and load the side-saddle/buttstock pouch with something else. That way you always know what is what and I choose to load Buck in the weapon, and Slugs in the accessory, the thought being if I need a slug, it is a situation where they are further off/in a car/why would I shoot that person anyways?

WS6

04-30-09, 21:10

I have seen people in the Er who were very able to fight after being shot with bird shot. Its not a good load for anything but birds. Use at least 1 buck. I prefer 00 buck in Federals reduced recoil tactical variant. Anything that has adequate terminal performance will go thought your home. Deal with it and don't miss.
Pat

If someone used size #8 on a jack rabbit, they would be called all sorts of names. I have no idea why people think #8 will work on a methed up felon when they would scoff at someone taking it after a jack rabbit.

WS6

04-30-09, 23:00

No offense partner, I'm not picking on you:

But this "candycaneing" a mag tube, or "loading by anticipation" is asinine. Stick with one type of round only, all the way through the mag tube. The last thing you are going to think about in a home defense scenario is what round is coming up. Chances are you wont remember how many rounds you fired, much less that you will even think about. Mr Badguy is going to stop his evil deeds while you look around to see what color your shotgun hulls are on the ground, and how many there are.

If you are going to use a side saddle, which I dont really dig, thats where you hang your slugs. It bears repeating, your mag tube should be stoked with the same round all the way through. It should also be chambered. Stop giving away your position by going Hollywood in Bum****, Arkansas by racking the bolt, or working the pump.

Make no mistake about buckshot. It will pass through sheetrock, lumber, and insulation the same way a birthday caked-up 8 your old passes through gift wrap. With ease. Your furniture, for the most part, is no obstacle to buck, and thats fine. I've never met a Broyhill that will keep me from stoping Mr Badguy's devious aggressions. If buckshot has to meet great great granny's antique china hut, it will quickly turn Mr Badguys cover into concealment. What do you do, Keanu? You shoot the furniture.

That said, understand that buckshot does have a risk. If you miss, it will keep on trucking(cue Eddie Kendricks). Realize that if a round is going to reach the vital organs, major blood bearing vessels, and better yet, the CNS, its gonna go through walls. So take the time to practice. Aim your fire. Reload under stress. You'd attend a carbine course, so attend a shotgun course.

As for slugs, I'm not a huge fan of them. They arent going through many vests. If the fight moves outside, you should wave goodbye to the fight. The slim possibility that you would engage an automobile f is one where slugs may be needed, but because its remote, thats why you stoke your side saddle with them, and practice emergancy reloads, this goes back to get some training. Then again, this proves why a carbine is superior to a shotgun for HD. You can limit the overpenetration risks, you can breach armor, you can engage multiple assailants, you can reload faster, you can defeat barriers, etc.

In my testing I found the the smallest size buckshot that would reliably penetrate a 2x6 board at a distance where pellets were not sharing paths, was OOO. OO would barely make it through, semi-reliably. The OOO would go through I belive 1 2x6 and stop in the second. It has been a while since I conducted the test, but I was very suprised at the lack of penetration given all that I have read and given the massive penetration in gel that buck exhibits.

Most foster type slugs (Remington Slugger/Winchester Power Point, these type) tend to fragment and deform VERY easily. Imagine my shock when I shot milk-jugs lined up at 25 yards only to penetrate 2 or 3 of them and find a snow-storm of fragments. I was using 1 of the 2 slugs I mentioned, I think the Winchester 2.75" PP @ 1700fps. It made a stoopid mess of the first jug or 2 though! I forget exactly how many it penetrated, but if it was 3, the 3rd was just minor framentation poking holes. This has been about a year ago.

jkosturko

05-23-09, 14:08

I think folks get to wrapped around the axle focusing on terminal effects of different ammo, and they haven't addressed the basics: My side of the room is kept completely clear of debris, and I have a straight shot down the hall from the bedroom door to the living room. The nearest gun is tucked into an old set of oakley boots, which are on top of a folded pair of jeans on the nightstand. This arrangement stays ready at all times. I can go from dead asleep to dressed and armed in 30 seconds, all without making a sound or turning on a light. My body armor is also stored in the bedroom. The shotgun goes to the range with me at least once a week. Practice with your weapon / ammo enough that you are totally confident in achieving first round shot placement. You can't miss fast enough to catch up. Address details like this before spending money for dedicated home defense ammo.

Home defense begins with location. I live in a safe neighborhood, and I have good relationships with my neighbors and their teenagers. I'm also across the street from an MP station.

That said, I've got a variety of weapons with home defense potential. My M500 12 ga. is set up with an old aimpoint M2 red dot, and a 6 position collapsible buttstock. While I have a pistol near the bed, I like the deterrent effect of a shotgun slide. I've got three barrels for the shotty; a rifled slug barrel for deer, a longer smoothbore for turkey, and an 18" shorty for home defense.

I use the same ammo for home defense that I use for hunting. I use a Remington nitro turkey 3" No.4 for spring turkey, and a Hornady SST polymer tip slug for deer in the fall. In the tube, they are loaded 44S4S. While the No.4 would be lower lethality, I'm quite confident that it would take a man off of his feet, and gentle him down a bit. It's also unlikely to over-penetrate my duplex walls. This arrangement gives me optional followup with the slug.

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt6/jkosturko/M500.jpg

RWK

05-23-09, 21:19

...I like the deterrent effect of a shotgun slide.

...In the tube, they are loaded 44S4S.

Punch yourself in the nads. Really hard. If you don't understand why you should do this, punch yourself twice.

GONIF

06-08-09, 16:36

Remington #12B1 shot gun shells ,for home defence .;)

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One of the great values in shotgun deer loads. A combination of heavy cushioning behind the shot column and a granulated polymer buffering helps maintain pellet roundness for tight, even patterns. Packed in 5-round boxes.

Index No. Gauge Shell Length Velocity (ft/sec@3ft) Shot Size Pellet Count
Express® Magnum Buckshot

1235B00* 12 3 1/2" 1125 00 18
12HB000 12 3" 1225 000 10
12HB00 12 3" 1225 00 15
12HB4 12 3" 1225 4 41
12SB00 12 2 3/4" 1290 00 12

Index No. Gauge Shell Length Velocity (ft/sec@3ft) Shot Size Pellet Count
Express® Buckshot

12B000 12 2 3/4" 1325 000 8
12B00* 12 2 3/4" 1325 00 9
12B0 12 2 3/4" 1275 0 12
12B1 12 2 3/4" 1250 1 16
12B4 12 2 3/4" 1325 4 27
20B3 20 2 3/4" 1200 3 20

* Utilizes Remington Power-Piston One-Piece Wad

WS6

06-08-09, 17:07

GONIF

06-08-09, 17:56

I'm useing a Remington 870 P with a 20 inch barrel and a Choat mag extension. I think it's a improved cyl. I get a 11.5 inch pattern (aprox )at 15 to 20 ft,the last time I checked . I think that is about right for the size rooms in my 2600 sq ft house. from what I have read and seen this load causes a lot of damage and stops the bad guy without over penitrateing and takeing out the dog and the old lady in another room .;) i'm sure tht 00 buck will work fine,but for HD this makes the most scence to me .

Uni-Vibe

06-13-09, 17:21

I recently tried both Federal Personal Defense #2 heavy birdshot loads, and Federal Tactical Reduced Recoil 00 Buck. The Tactical Buck loads recoiled noticeably less than the Personal Defense #2 loads. Both put out a nice tight pattern at 25 feet (chest sized spread). This was out of a 18.5 inch Rem 870.

I am now a firm believer in reduced recoil LEO/Tactical type buckshot loads. There is much less recoil and muzzle flip but they still do the job on Thugs.

GONIF

06-13-09, 17:38

aT 6-2 AND 255 RECOIL IS NOT A PROBLEM.

Alaskapopo

06-13-09, 17:45

aT 6-2 AND 255 RECOIL IS NOT A PROBLEM.

Recoil is a problem for everyone. More recoil means longer shot to shot recovery which means a slower rate of fire. Everything is a trade off. You want to pick a load that does well in the terminal performance category but that is also easy to control.
Pat

Rampant Colt

06-13-09, 17:54

So could I run a #4 buck in the chamber, followed by a #1 and then a O and then a OO and then if they are still coming, or behind cover, have a OOO round and then a slug to cap it all off? ;)

Anyways, how does that #1B pattern for you and at what distace/what choke? I am considering trying it, but only if it patterns tighter than my OOO stuff, which is 80-100% on a 14x14" target at 25m and 40-50% on the same target at 50m.
Use one type of buckshot that patterns well from your shotgun, and consider yourself well-armed.

Staggering shells in the magazine tube is a bad idea for the multiple reasons listed above by the other knowledgeable posters

GONIF

06-13-09, 17:55

I have tryed a lot of 12 gage shells includeing low recoil and I have no problem with 12B1 load. I can get all on target and fast as hell too . Pratice is the key . ;) at under 50 ft with a improved choke (there is no provision on my 870P for a changeable choke tube) 14 inchs is about right . were I to go from defence to longer range offence 00 might be better. in the confines of my home (30 ft or under)the 12b1 works great for me . the OP was about home defence after all . best bet is to get your shotgun and lots of differant rounds and see what you like best for you .

Mega

06-24-09, 20:24

At 25 yards, 00 Buck and Slugger seem to hit their mark pretty well.

http://homepage.mac.com/kevinfarrell/.Pictures/30Apr09%20Range%20Day/Photo%20Library%20-%20092.JPG

This target was also shot by some of my buds, so the smaller holes can be attributed to them. :)
The big holes are mine. :D

Uni-Vibe

06-24-09, 20:55

But slugs are way bad on over-penetration. Buck's better.

Mega

06-24-09, 21:05

But slugs are way bad on over-penetration. Buck's better.

Not if you hit your target they aren't. ;)

Uni-Vibe

06-24-09, 22:22

Not if you hit your target they aren't. ;)

I've seen a regular type 12 ga. slug go through both sides of a water heater. They will penetrate a human every time and keep on going a long way.

Sabot slugs even more so.

Slugs have no place in HD in my opinion.

WS6

06-24-09, 23:09

I've seen a regular type 12 ga. slug go through both sides of a water heater. They will penetrate a human every time and keep on going a long way.

Sabot slugs even more so.

Slugs have no place in HD in my opinion.

and I have seen a regular Foster slug frag like 75gr TAP and no penetrate over 2-3 milk jugs filled with water. Less than a 9mm JHP.

Luke_Y

06-27-09, 13:54

This target was also shot by some of my buds, so the smaller holes can be attributed to them. :)

What, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy. :D

Mega

06-27-09, 14:02

What, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy. :D

:D
The head shots on the '5'... those are mine.
S&W M&P9 with Crimson Trace Laser grips.

The little guy can bite. ;)

Saginaw79

06-27-09, 17:27

IMO for HD slugs are silly, besides, its a SHOTgun...not a rifle! :D

FMF_Doc

06-27-09, 17:45

#7 birdshot, nice tight pattern lot's of bb's, unlike 00 buckshot.

The thing with the birdshot is that you can fire off 5-6 shots without feeling like your shoulder getting mangled.

6933

06-27-09, 18:22

DocGKR has already settled this discussion with Mil and LE trial testing. Use your search-fu and get a definitive, scientifically based answer. All the "personal" opinions really don't matter. What matters is scientifically based testing. Period. The answer is OO and up for a variety of reasons. Do the research.

6933

06-27-09, 18:25

Heck, my memory sucks. Used my search-fu and DocGKR says use #1 and up.

Mega

06-27-09, 18:27

#7 birdshot, nice tight pattern lot's of bb's, unlike 00 buckshot.

The thing with the birdshot is that you can fire off 5-6 shots without feeling like your shoulder getting mangled.

IMO for HD slugs are silly, besides, its a SHOTgun...not a rifle! :D

Take a read at the Box-O-Truth and you might just change your minds.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

FMF_Doc

06-27-09, 19:11

Mega- the birdshot at close range is lethal, but also will do less damage to the drywall :D, I want the bad guys out of my house.

6933

06-27-09, 19:47

The Box of Truth trials are completely non-science based.

These are personal trials and are non-science based. They are not usable in a scientific setting.

Why would anyone listen to this when DocGKR has FBI, MIL, and other LE trials as the basis for a general consensus opinion?

His work is some of the seminal work in ballistics, yet people defer to their friends test that they shot at H2O jugs, or at a target in non-specific trials.

I guess work that is performed under military, FBI, and LE standards and auspices just isn't good enough for some. I wonder why the military and LE don't use Box of Truth data?

FMF_Doc

06-27-09, 20:12

My experience is personal based on my military career and le tactical training.

I trust Doc's data as it is based on the experience and testing by those that actually use these weapons.

Lo_Key

06-28-09, 15:39

I just read through this thread and had a quick question. I notice a lot of people using multiple types of rounds in their SG. I have a Mossberg 500 with a slugster barrel that I recently just purchased. I currently load it with Federal 2 3/4 Slug. I have some 00 buck but have not had the guts to put it through the barrel as I fear it may damage it. Can anyone confirm if using 00 buck is severly bad for the barrel? I would assume so but I thought Id just ask.
More likely than not, I would probably use the pistol or AR before the SG for the reason that I do not want to use slugs as a first line.

tpd223

06-28-09, 16:41

I assume you are talking about their rifled barrel? If so, shot loads won't damage it, but they will pattern crazy wide even at close range due to the twist imparted by the rifling.

tpd223

06-28-09, 16:42

I assume you are talking about their rifled barrel? If so, shot loads won't damage it, but they will pattern crazy wide even at close range due to the twist imparted by the rifling.

Also, these barrels generally don't shoot Foster style slugs well, they are best with sabot slugs.
For a home defense gun I'd get a plain 18" barrel to use.

Lo_Key

06-28-09, 16:50

See I thought the same thing. Strange thing is the barrel is stamped SLUGSTER yet there is no rifling. It looks completely flat.

Alaskapopo

06-28-09, 16:54

Alaskapopo

06-28-09, 16:55

See I thought the same thing. Strange thing is the barrel is stamped SLUGSTER yet there is no rifling. It looks completely flat.
Most slug barrels are not rifled. They simply have rifle sights. A real rifled barrel costs a lot more.
Pat

tpd223

06-28-09, 16:56

Then you have the barrel made for use with Foster style slugs. I used to have a 500 with one of those barrels (rifle style sights mounted on the barrel, correct?).

It will shoot with OO buck just fine.

Lo_Key

06-28-09, 17:02

Yes on the sights. Great thank you for the info! Ill get some more 00 buck!

Black Blade

06-29-09, 17:21

I prefer a hollow point rifled slug.

dbrowne1

07-02-09, 09:13

Slugs have no place in HD in my opinion.

You should let Louis Awerbuck know that - all he uses in his personal guns is slugs. :rolleyes: (although this is just so that he has a uniform load in every gun and doesn't have to wonder what's in it when he picks it up).

People get way too twisted up about wall penetration. If you're slinging something that has enough mass and velocity to reliably stop an aggressor, it's probably got enough to go through a typical house wall and have some degree of wounding ability on the other side. At the very least, you should assume it probably does.

You need to accept that as a given and try as best you can to think about what is on the other side of each wall in your house, and - to the best of your ability under the circumstances - take that into account when deciding if a shot needs to be made or can be moved to another, perhaps less risky, trajectory.

dbrowne1

07-02-09, 09:18

#7 birdshot, nice tight pattern lot's of bb's, unlike 00 buckshot.

The thing with the birdshot is that you can fire off 5-6 shots without feeling like your shoulder getting mangled.

Federal Flite Control 00 buck patterns through almost a single hole out to about 7 yards in my guns. Better than any birdshot I've used. I can also shoot 50 rounds of it at the range and my shoulder is just fine.

You mention that your opinion is based on military and LE experience - what experience or training did you have in shooting bad people with birdshot in the military? Or in LE?

Uni-Vibe

07-02-09, 15:11

You should let Louis Awerbuck know that - all he uses in his personal guns is slugs. :rolleyes: (although this is just so that he has a uniform load in every gun and doesn't have to wonder what's in it when he picks it up).

People get way too twisted up about wall penetration. If you're slinging something that has enough mass and velocity to reliably stop an aggressor, it's probably got enough to go through a typical house wall and have some degree of wounding ability on the other side. At the very least, you should assume it probably does.

You need to accept that as a given and try as best you can to think about what is on the other side of each wall in your house, and - to the best of your ability under the circumstances - take that into account when deciding if a shot needs to be made or can be moved to another, perhaps less risky, trajectory.

My question has always been this: When firing across your bedroom at invading thugs, what does the slug do for you that a buckshot load won't? Nothing that I can figure.

dbrowne1

07-02-09, 20:29

My question has always been this: When firing across your bedroom at invading thugs, what does the slug do for you that a buckshot load won't? Nothing that I can figure.

It gives you zero risk of a stray pellet, a .70 caliber hole, and the ability to shoot much farther with precision should that be necessary. You're also assuming that every problem is a clean shot across one small room with nothing "friendly" in the background. So the question then becomes - what does buck give you that the slug doesn't? Perhaps a small advantage in overall wounding, but that's about it.

tpd223

07-03-09, 02:51

At very close range full power Foster slugs tend to fragment a great deal, and give a huge wound and temp cavity, and it also tends to stay inside the person.

Buckshot tends to blow right through people at close range.

If one is worried about shooting through a bad guy then slugs are the safer choice.

Alaskapopo

07-03-09, 03:51

tpd223

07-04-09, 03:25

dbrowne1

07-04-09, 16:33

Just what I've noticed with OO buck vs Foster slugs.

I have also noted that OO buck tends to penetrate the same or greater in gelatin.

The low recoil slugs penetrate more than the full speed slugs in my observation, due to the low recoil versions not expanding or fragmenting nearly as much.

Either way, the thought that OO buck is OK but using slugs is somehow outrageous is misinformed.

I believe that. Foster slugs are hollow - not a solid block of lead like a Brenneke slug. Foster slugs are really not a very tough projectile, particularly if they're made of softer lead.

Alaskapopo

07-04-09, 18:49

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_12ga.jpg

tpd223

07-05-09, 04:35

Thanks for posting the chart.

36cm is less than 15"

From actually blasting gello at my range I noted that OO buck consistently out penetrated full power "hollow point" Foster slugs, especially the newer Flightcontrol OO buck, which acts like a solid at close range and penetrates as a single mass.

In both gelatin and in people I have noted Foster slugs tend to either expand into a big lead doughnut or fragment into three or four pieces.

Glock17JHP

07-10-09, 20:48

No intent to start an argument, but for clarity, the papers in IWBA suggested that No.1 buckshot must be "hardened", that is, has a high antimony content and pellets must be also be "smoothened and rounded" well for adequate penetration. AFAIK, no existing No.1-buck load, with those characteristics, are presently available to the market. In fact the paper even suggested that a "reduced load" (containing 14 instead of 16 pellets in a typical 2-3/4-inch standard load) be applied. No.4-buck, even with the 41-pellet copper-plated load, may still be inferior to standard 9-pellet 00-buck load as far as adequate and consistent penetration is concern. 00-buck is the optimum sized buckshot for self-defense regardless of surroundings, IMHO. 000-buck size is slightly larger, but still, you have reduced number of pellets. If you want accuracy beyond 10-yards, that's were the slugs come into play.

Thanks, Chris... I was wondering if this would be mentioned...

I have had this discussion quite a few times here and on other forums, and too many people know about Shawn Dodson and the IWBA's recommendation of #1 Buck. Few have ever really read the entire details about how #1 Buck could maybe be the best load if it had truly HARDENED shot, a good SHOTCUP, and BUFFERING material. I have discussed this misconception openly on M4C's Terminal Ballistics forum, and have discussed it specifically with Shawn Dodson and others from the IWBA. I get no arguments as to my point, but there has never been an UPDATE to the writngs based on the IWBA's materials that tend to continue to mislead many. #1 Buck is NOT the #1 choice, as many assume who have not taken the time to read and research this suject THOROUGHLY.

No such factory load exists, so the next recommended pellet size up is 0 Buck. Since 0 Buck has not been extensively tested, you have to assume 00 Buck to be the best until further load development occurs with the #1 Buck pellet sized loads. This is highly unlikely since 00 Buck is so widely accepted.

So... 00 Buck is the right pellet size, and the particular load you choose would depend on your scenario. For LE use, I would recommend Federal 'Flight Control' 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck, 9-pellet LE13200. For HD use, I would recommend Winchester Ranger 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck 9-pellet RA1200. Penetration is roughly 15-16 inches with both of these loads, and they pattern at about 6 inches and 11 inches respectvely at about 25 yards (75 feet).

FWIW... I also now prefer Brenneke Tactical Home Defense as my choice for a shotgun slug. This 1 ounce 'solid' slug penetrates about 16 inches. And... I do not mix loads in the magazine, I think that is tactically unwise.

tpd223

07-11-09, 18:32

The 8 pellet low recoil Remington OO buck is also very good ammo. Before the Flightcontrol showed up it consistently held the tightest patterns in our testing here.

Worked as one would expect of OO buck in the one OIS we had with this load,

torquemada055

07-11-09, 19:55

I use #4 in mine, 00, 000 and slugs have to much pentration for in house usage.

Glock17JHP

07-12-09, 23:06

I use #4 in mine, 00, 000 and slugs have to much pentration for in house usage.

Good reason to use 'Reduced Recoil' or 'Low Recoil' 00 Buck instead of the regular stuff...

torquemada055

07-13-09, 02:19

After reading this page again and the last answer provided the impetus for more research on reduced recoil loads, I found this interesting article that has made me see things in a new light.

Thanks for teaching this old dog something new!!!

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Glock17JHP

07-13-09, 10:54

Shawn Dodson's page in the link needs to be read along with al of the references, especially the IWBA journal articles. A careful reading of the IWBA articles basically tells us that #1 Buck could be the #1 choice if modifications are made to existing loads. Without those modifications, #1 Buck is not the 1 choice.

READ THE IWBA ARTICLES SITED BY SHAWN DODSON TO GET THE WHOLE PICTURE HERE... WITHOUT THEM, WE ARE LOOKING AT PERT OF THE PICTURE ONLY...

If I had the WBR in .PDF format, I could cut and paste parts of the articles to prove my point... I am not wanting to type the portions myself... But since I only have WBR hardcopies...

bryan1211

07-13-09, 13:58

00 buck with slugs in your side sadle :D great combo!

Mega

07-13-09, 14:54

00 buck with slugs in your side sadle :D great combo!

This. ;)

Glock17JHP

07-14-09, 13:35

00 buck with slugs in your side sadle :D great combo!

Agree...

bryan1211

07-14-09, 16:47

This. ;)

Agree...

thanx! lol :D

paul075

07-14-09, 19:50

bryan1211

07-14-09, 21:47

Why not have both in one shell!
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/50rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck

Search for Civil War buck and ball. This has been very effective for well over a century.

Because you have 00 buck for indoor use then if MR. Bad Guy goes out side you slap the slugs in for the long shots. :D :eek:

Glock17JHP

07-15-09, 10:58

Why not have both in one shell!
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/50rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck

Search for Civil War buck and ball. This has been very effective for well over a century.

We have much better stuff now... that load seems pretty crude to me...

I suppose if you are in a battlefield where you are out in the open, and everyone in front you is the enemy, and everything behind that is 'enemy', too... then MAYBE...

My neighborhod isn't like that, though... and I would not want that for indoors...

Are there an LE or Military using that load? Is there any forensic data on it from a shooting? Probably not...

paul075

07-15-09, 14:34

I am not saying it is the best, just another alternative. I do not think a .22lr would tickle and I would not stand in front of the bird shot much less any of the others.;)

m24shooter

07-17-09, 11:30

Why not have both in one shell!
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/pName/50rds-12-gauge-centurion-le-2-34-multidefense-buck

Search for Civil War buck and ball. This has been very effective for well over a century.

I believe it would be more accurate to say it was effective up until well over a century ago. Even in the Civil War it was used to equip smoothbore troops in massed formations who were fighting other troops in massed formations. But it was already outdated then.
It was meant to give troops with inaccurate weapons an increased chance of a hit by at least one projo. And this was in a time in which many wounds that would today be survivable were at that time eventually fatal due to no germ theory, unsanitary conditions, the properties of the projectile and its speed, and crude medical techniques and tools.
It was and is a compromise. You would be better off today chosing to shoot a slug or buck and not trying to cram both into one round that doesn't do the job as well as either.