View Full Version : Proper allocation of resources
Firearms for me are first and foremost defensive, or if required, offensive tools. First line is CCW as that's what I'm most likely to have on me at any given moment. For me, it's a Glock 17 with a reload. If things are worse than that (Katrina, etc), I have a suppressed DD MK18 SBR AR15 ready to roll with an Aimpoint, Surefire, etc. Now, I have an identical G17 that sits at home. I like the idea of a backup and it's always at home close to hand for my wife. I do not have an identical backup for my SBR...not sure if I need one. I do have a Smith M&P10 (semi-auto AR-style .308) setup with a Nightforce 2.5-10x32, offset Docter red dot, free-floated, etc. I set this up to basically be a longer-range, more-powerful option to the 5.56 SBR.
Here's where I'm struggling, I don't have anywhere to really shoot beyond 100yds, with most of my shooting being done at 25yd indoor ranges. I have formal training with both pistol and carbine and feel confident using either. Longer-range precision is something I've messed with a bit on and off, but due to the cost of ammo and lack of a place to shoot (nearest range is 2 hrs away and 700 yds) the .308 pretty much sits in the safe. I think I like the idea of it more than the actual use of it. So with that said, I've got a big chunk of money, in fact, probably about equal to my SBR including the suppressor and tax stamps, tied up in a rifle that gets shot once or twice a year. I'm wondering if I would just do better to replace the .308 with another/backup .223 and use the residual funds for ammo/armor/etc. Maybe a 12.5" SBR with a Nightforce 1-4? That way I still have the opportunity to grab a rifle with some magnification for precision if I want, but it uses the same mags, parts, and ammo as my other one. Having 1X on the bottom end of the NF would make it a potential backup to the MK18. I could also use the suppressor I already have.
I suppose the other option would be to keep the .308 and build the 12.5" up slowly over time. I just struggle having that much money in a rifle that I don't use/enjoy that much. On the other hand, I've sold 2 other .308 bolt guns in the past and always found myself still wanting to have one. I think the biggest issue is that I'm best served 99% of the time by an SBR with a red dot. So, is the .308 worth keeping for that 1% or is the money better spent on other, more used things?
And because someone will ask, pic:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2855/12206328775_8d63394860_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12206328775/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12206328775/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
I have 6 or 7 5.56 ARs and not ONE .308 gas gun. We do shoot a lot of long range, but even then we don't really miss a .308 gas gun.
It'd be too expensive to feed it any ammo worth going long range with.
I have 6 or 7 5.56 ARs and not ONE .308 gas gun. We do shoot a lot of long range, but even then we don't really miss a .308 gas gun.
It'd be too expensive to feed it any ammo worth going long range with.
I think it's like I alluded to in the OP...kinda like a puppy...seems great until you have to feed it and take it on a walk.
Turn the .308 into a non long range oriented gun. Problem solved. Who said .308 HAS to be for distance? :) Lighten it up, put an rds on it, and have fun.
I know lonesome uppers tend to grow lowers eventually, but another option you could entertain is building that 12.5 as an upper only that you could switch with your Mk18 when the circumstances or mood dictates. This is a good choice especially if you are not sure if the 12.5 will fully scratch the semi-precision itch for you.
You would save the cost and wait of another SBR lower and stamp, plus keep compatibility with your suppressor and mags. That may allow you enough room financially to maintain the .308 as well. If not, I myself have been trying to purge stuff I do not use to focus on stuff I do, so if that is the case I would probably sell the .308.
A lot of life is about context, but to me, a 700 yard range only 2 hours away would get a lot of visits from me and that .308. And match .308 was available last time I needed some. You don't need the heavier caliber for that distance, but you already own the rifle. If I had that rifle and a range I could get to, shoot for 3 or 4 hours, and get home the same day, I would put my efforts into finding 168 grain match ammo.
I have 500 rounds of 168 gr FGMM and nothing to shoot it with now tha I sold my LMT MWS. It wasn't hard to find ammo two years ago when I bought the FGGM; is it really hard to find now?
I'm building a Mark 12 SPR style upper now that I have a 500 yard range opening very near me. I have found a place that stocks BH MK 262 77 gr. OTM, and it's more than a dollar a round.
Keep the rifle, hunt for ammo, and be thankful you have a 700 range that close.
It irks me to have a gun just laying around and not getting shot. The only exception is a collectable or a family hand me down.
So, I get where you are coming from.
I have four 5.56 ARs and shoot all of them but, the ones that see the most use are my 10.5" SBR and my Noveske Afghan. The SBR has a Aimpoint and the Afghan has a 1.5x5 Leupold. I have a M42000 that will mount on both. If I had to whittle my collection down to only two, those would be the two I'd keep for sure.
The SBR I use at shorter ranges mostly. Inside of 100yds on multiple targets, practicing reloads and getting my AR "muscle memory" tuned up.
The Afghan I use a short range too on 1.5x but, mostly from 100yds on out to 4-500yds.
If it was me and I wasn't shooting the 7.62 I'd sell it or trade it for a 5.56 16" DMR type rifle with a suppressor mount and a low power variable.
You can turn it down and shoot up close or turn it up and stretch its' legs whenever you have the opportunity or, the need.
mastiffhound
02-25-14, 15:05
I've always regretted selling or trading firearms away. I've always come back to the "I like this again" kind of mood. I had an FN FNAR 20" with the mid-weight barrel that was a pain to clean and had about 100 moving parts. I got bored and got rid of it. It was damn accurate but it was heavy and it didn't fit my needs. 2 years later and guess what, I built a Savage .308 because shooting has become expensive. Trying to make 1 MOA or less groups takes time and I shoot less. The only gun I don't miss is that pos buttmaster. I'd do as someone else posted and maybe change it to a close to medium range rifle with a red dot or low power magnification optic. You can always go back. You were stoked enough to buy it in the first place.
Even though you don't have a use for it right now you may later. Put it in the back of the safe, next time you get it out it may feel like finding a $100 dollar bill you left in your jacket pocket last winter. Just remember that life changes often. What you don't need today may be just what the doctor ordered tomorrow.
Ash, no one can answer that question but you. Traveling 2 hrs to shoot isn't anything, in my opinion because while growing up, it was normal to travel 4 hrs out to our favorite spot in the desert to go shooting & hunting jackrabbits for the weekend.
A couple of things to keep in mind. If you make up your mind to go shoot your rifle- any rifle- more often, you can find ways to do it.
Interests wax & wane. I've had many interests and they come & go. The ones I really like always come back. I'll get involved with shooting bolt action rifles or revolvers and find myself drifting towards lever actions & single actions, then I'll pick up the Garand for awhile, the M14, the AR, then come back to something else. Sometimes someone new to shooting expresses interest that rekindles something for me. It's ok to not shoot something for awhile because you always have the choice to come back to it. Enjoy what you've got while you can because you never know what will change when. I used think milsurp ammo at 10 cents a round was too expensive because I could reload cheaper- and I did. That's all changed.
Myself, I normally hate selling firearms, but as a rule I buy keepers. You have to decide for yourself if it's worth it to give up the M&P-10 for something else or if it's better to take your time & build something you want. Either way, it just a rifle. You don't have to make up you mind to sell it now. You can always sell it later
Knowing that ASH556 has a little one at home and the misery of getting anywhere in the metro Atlanta, I understand the difficulty of finding a good outdoor range within a decent distance. For me, it's a 1.5 hour drive South of the City and I'm lucky to go once a month for similar reasons. I tend to agree with your logic. Having an 800 yard gun is a waste of resources if you don't have the time to shoot it or the funds to feed it. I don't know how the guys with semi-auto 7.62s do it.
For me, the only use I have for a mid-long range gun is for hunting. My 700 CDL in 30-06 handles that. Everything else is 5.56. I'm at 4 AR's. One precision gun that gets shot at 300 pretty regularly, sometimes further. My SBR, which gets the most use. A 16" SR15 and now a BCM 14.5 midlength. With the 14.5 in hand, I'm wondering if the SR15 won't become redundant.
spectre044
02-25-14, 18:26
I no longer own my LMT for this reason. I live in the Metro area and there is simply no good place to shoot it. I have no way to justify owning a rifle that never gets shot. I used the money to buy another 5.56 rifle and a hefty chunk of ammo as well. YMMV but that was the appropriate choice for me. I like the idea of some redundancy in a platform.
Flag the .308 for first to go if you need cash, but I'd at least shoot it as much as you feel inclined to. It's crazy how much my opinion on a firearm can change in just a couple seasons, just from weather or a particularly good range session.
I'm on the south side and have access to a couple of places to shoot 200 yards or so, but I can't afford to feed a semi auto 30 cal AR. I have a 6920 and a 14.5" BCM. I plan to built a RECCE or afghan along with a 12.5 kino and call it gtg.
For you guys in the Atlanta area, there is a 1,000 yd range/club in the Opelika, AL area which is less than 2 hrs. away. East AL Gun Club, where I am a member, is 11 pistol bays with 2 100 yd and a 300 yd range. There is also a range here called Hard Rock that is long distance but I've never shot there. Ash I hope this gives you a couple of range options.
It irks me to have a gun just laying around and not getting shot. The only exception is a collectable or a family hand me down.
So, I get where you are coming from.
I have four 5.56 ARs and shoot all of them but, the ones that see the most use are my 10.5" SBR and my Noveske Afghan. The SBR has a Aimpoint and the Afghan has a 1.5x5 Leupold. I have a M42000 that will mount on both. If I had to whittle my collection down to only two, those would be the two I'd keep for sure.
The SBR I use at shorter ranges mostly. Inside of 100yds on multiple targets, practicing reloads and getting my AR "muscle memory" tuned up.
The Afghan I use a short range too on 1.5x but, mostly from 100yds on out to 4-500yds.
If it was me and I wasn't shooting the 7.62 I'd sell it or trade it for a 5.56 16" DMR type rifle with a suppressor mount and a low power variable.
You can turn it down and shoot up close or turn it up and stretch its' legs whenever you have the opportunity or, the need.
^^This^^
I as well had to cut my safe down to the bare essentials. I view weapons as a specific piece of equipment needed for a specific mission or accomplishing a certain objective.
Here are the rifles I own and the reasons I own them.
-11.5 inch SBR for 200m and under work
- 14.5 in carbine my "all purpose" rifle that I can't fight 0-400 meters with
- 18in SPR for precision and shooting out to 600m
-16in SR25 type rifle that is set up for precision as but can also be used for "closer" in work. Also when I require more penetration or terminal ballistics.
I also have a ak74 and ak47 so in case ammo for my 556 guns is too expensive or unavailable I have a primary weapon that I can train and have ready.
Other than my long range 300 win mag rifle that I'm having built and a 10/22 I do not own any other rifles nor plan too. I might get, a 300blk upper in the future Becuase that round is the tits for Surpressed CQB applications.
I know this might seem excessive to some but I like to have every possible situation covered.
Are you married to a gas .308 and a Nightforce scope?
Could you sell that, and replace with a .30cal bolt gun and a lower priced scope, and use the extra $$ for a DMR type upper (knowing it will grow a lower, as mentioned above)?
What about something like a scout style setup, and a .30 caliber can? Or even a lighter "compact" size bolt gun, threaded? Several things online about "budget 1000yd guns", and still gives you the range capability. Also saves you from that "I need a bigger rifle caliber" feeling that pops up every once in a while...
Use the can on the .30 when using the new gun, and on the new DMR upper as needed/ as a back up can (if you want to go that route). Get you some heavier 223/5.56 ammo and enjoy longer ranges when you want, with either gun.
I dislike selling guns, but that is a bit of coin tied up in a gun not being used, save 2 range trips per year.
In your shoes, I would sell the unused .308, then look at putting together something along the lines of a Block II SOPMOD: check out the BCM 14.5 / DD RIS II SBR uppers, or similar offerings from DD. Buy more 5.56.
In your shoes, I would sell the unused .308, then look at putting together something along the lines of a Block II SOPMOD: check out the BCM 14.5 / DD RIS II SBR uppers, or similar offerings from DD. Buy more 5.56.
Funny you say that, I sold a DD block II to buy the .308
I've been thinning the herd and unless it's a family heirloom or a gun that gets shot regularly, it's finding a new home. I don't want to be a "collector".
I was kicking around the .300 Blackout for a SBR and came to a screeching stop due to ammo costs/availability. I don't reload, and each magazine costing the the same as a tank of gas was an eye opener.
5.56 is where I'll stay. Maybe 5.45 too.
I would get a 12.5 Noveske SS barreled upper and put a good 1x6 scope on it. You will be able to shoot heavy grain bullets and it will be a very accurate "urban" precision upper. You can switch the uppers out or just SBR another lower. I have that set up and it is very good.
I was wondering when 300 USELESS would get brought up.
I would get a 12.5 Noveske SS barreled upper and put a good 1x6 scope on it. You will be able to shoot heavy grain bullets and it will be a very accurate "urban" precision upper. You can switch the uppers out or just SBR another lower. I have that set up and it is very good.
I like that concept. But there's way more bang for the buck in barrels. Noveskes are way overpriced, but don't shoot any better in my experience. They shoot fine, and I've never shot a disappointing Noveske... but on the flip side, I've never had a noveske barrel impress me like a White Oak or a Bergara.
Ash, you've seem my 16" BCM 410 Stainless gun with 2.5-10. it's an honest 1 MOA gun but doesn't get shot much past 200 due to access/time issues. I have other carbines for closer distance however this one would work at any distance I wanted to in a pinch.
somewhere I heard about Defoor's Rule of 4's - 5.56 mm for 400 and closer, 7.62x51mm for 400-800, 300 WM for 800-1200, 338 Lap Mag for 1200-1600 - and it made sense to me. this is his rule for effective combat ranges, not for simply putting holes in paper or dinging steel (there are plenty of people shoot 5.56 way past 400 and if you have issue with his rule take it up with him)...
based on this I think there is good justification for .308 for extending range and for use against barriers at closer range, and I think a 2.5-10 is a great optic for it. I know it bugs some people to have something they never use but I look at tools as use specific, ie: I don't often use my Stihl chainsaw with 20" bar but when I need it, the 16" homeowner saw is no substitute.
if I had that .308, I would take the time/effort to get proficient with it both at long range and closer. I know it's not cheap to feed but that's the cost of doing business...
Thanks for all the input guys, lots to think about! I guess I could continue with the current setup and add the 12.5 as time allows. Probably looking at a 9-12 month process without selling anything to offset costs. I guess in reality that's not too long. I already have a Noveske lower I planned to form 1, so I could just start there. I could have it immediately if I sold the .308, but I'm afraid I would just want the .308 again. There is some peace of mind in having it available even if it's not used regularly...sort of like a CCW.
ETA: The 12.5/1-4 would probably see a helluva lot more use than the .308, though.
Thanks for all the input guys, lots to think about! I guess I could continue with the current setup and add the 12.5 as time allows. Probably looking at a 9-12 month process without selling anything to offset costs. I guess in reality that's not too long. I already have a Noveske lower I planned to form 1, so I could just start there. I could have it immediately if I sold the .308, but I'm afraid I would just want the .308 again. There is some peace of mind in having it available even if it's not used regularly...sort of like a CCW.
ETA: The 12.5/1-4 would probably see a helluva lot more use than the .308, though.
if I missed it, sorry, but if you already have the lower, what's wrong with just a 14.5-16" carbine? lot less time/$ than an SBR...
davidjinks
02-26-14, 17:18
Dump the .308, sell it.
Get an exact setup to what you have in 5.56MM. Take whatever you have left over from the sale and build and purchase more mags and ammo.
All of my rifles are 5.56 shooters. All but 1 of my pistols are 9MM shooters. I have pretty much hit the point where going outside my lane of 5.56/9 is pretty much useless to me. It makes my life a whole hell of a lot easier in regards to shooting. Like you my guns are for defensive/offensive (If needed) purposes. It just makes life easier to have things standardized.
Of course this is all just my opinion.
I'd keep it. IMO, it's becoming a buyers' market. If you wanted to sell it, you should've sold it during the craze. AR15's are becoming plentiful now, including magazines and ammo. If you can't afford an AR15 without selling an AR10, maybe it's best not to buy anything as even when you buy the AR15, you're going to have to buy stuff to support it, even though I know you already have 1 AR15. Also, like others have said, 2 hours is nothing to drive to a range, but I guess that's personal opinion. I regularly drive 2 hours just to attend matches and my home range is 1.5 hours away, because it's the closest range out to 600 yards that I know of. Finally, I think you may someday want to venture into precision or tactical shooting (doesn't everyone? LOL), where I think you will be glad you have the AR10. While it's true the 9mm and 5.56 will serve 99% of your needs, we shoot for fun too, don't we, and also to learn new things. I know a lot of the 3-gun matches around me are stretching the rifle distances out to way past CQB. You almost need a DMR to compete in some of them. So for me, striving to excel inside 100 yards will cover 99% of the situations, but I want to be able to shoot out to 600 yards too. So, in the end, as other have said, it's up to you and what you want. I know I'm in the market for an AR10 someday.
I would get a 12.5 Noveske SS barreled upper and put a good 1x6 scope on it. You will be able to shoot heavy grain bullets and it will be a very accurate "urban" precision upper. You can switch the uppers out or just SBR another lower. I have that set up and it is very good.
Seconded.
Failure2Stop
02-26-14, 22:53
I would rather have a 16" 7.62 than a 16" 5.56 as a "GP" carbine that might be called on to do a wide range of duties. Not because they have any guarantee of being more accurate, but rather that they can deliver more effect on target and have a wide range of ammunition for specialty application. No free lunch though; they're heavier, have reduced capacity, and are more costly in nearly every aspect of logistics and support.
I really like 11.5 5.56 guns, especially if application is biased toward sub-200 meters.
.300 Blk fills a nice role for 9.5" guns, guns that NEED to be very quiet, or if I want to share a single highly effective suppressor between a long gun and a short gun.
A 7.62 16" semi-auto is the best answer for problems that call for 7.62, but most folks don't have a real "need" for 7.62, or the resources to fully support their integration. Just about everyone has a good use for an SBR 5.56 lower.
Thanks for the additional good input everyone! I've decided to keep the .308. It is a very useful tool, even if not used frequently. To scratch the 12.5" SBR itch, I'm selling a high-end Leupold target scope off a .22 that also doesn't see as much use as I thought it would. That gives me $650 to start building my upper. I can use it right away on my MK18 lower while I wait for the stamp to go through on my Noveske lower. I already have some parts, just need a barrel, rail, and BCG.
Now I'm just debating on SS vs CHF on the barrel, DD vs Noveske (or BCM 410). The issue is balancing accuracy against hard use. Since this would serve as a backup to my MK18, I don't want to burn out a $350 SS barrel too quick, especially since suppressors are involved as well. At the same time, I would want at least MOA accuracy with match ammo. A previous 16" DD lightweight barrel would do about 1.5 MOA.
Thanks for input on the barrel, looking forward to getting this built!
ETA: reason for sticking with 12.5" barrel is an SPR-M4 suppressor.
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