View Full Version : What buffer are you running in your middie?
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I've got an H buffer in my BCM midlength and it runs well so far. I'm using only NATO-pressure 5.56 loads (M855) and am thinking of bumping up to an H2.
If it's a 16", an H2 is good. For a 14.5, I run the H. This is specific to BCM. Other middies have different (larger) ports.
KingsideRook
02-25-14, 14:20
Can't hurt to try an H2 buffer, provided you still get reliability with your ammo still, even when the gun is filthy and parts are towards the end of their replacement life. BCM's gas ports are sized correctly, not oversized, so the H buffer may be all you need. I've used H and H2 buffers with a BCM Mid. 16" and it worked with both.
That said, VLTOR's A5 system rocks my world. I have 5 Midlength rifles - DD, BCM, Spike's & PSA barrels, 16" and 14.5" and the A5 buffer/RE system runs smoothly and without a hiccup for all of them. Buying 6 (so far) A5 kits wasn't cheap, I assure you, but I wouldn't go back either.
For both my 16" and 14.5" BCM mids, I can run an H when suppressed, but have to switch to a CAR for unsuppressed reliability. Mine are apparently oddballs.
I really do prefer an .080" gas port on a 14.5 middy. I have one that'll even run Herters like a champ, and it's not overgassed on full powered ammo.
My BCM 14.5 mid is bufferd down to a plain old H to keep it running with all ammo kinds. Now adding a suppressor and an A5 to the Bravo Middy would probably be unbeatable.
rapomstage3
02-25-14, 15:26
I have too sr 15's and I tried an h buffer out of my 6920 for the first time the other day. I have to say that It felt smoother and less clunky with the standard carbine buffer that they come with.
I'm running an H buffer in my 13.7 Infidel. I believe it has a 0.750 exterior diameter at the gas port. It has ran everything from MK262 to Tula.
MSparks909
02-25-14, 15:42
H2 with Sprinco Blue in my 16" DD Middy. Eats everything from Tula to XM855/193.
RogerinTPA
02-25-14, 15:47
H buffer with blue spinco spring on my DD 14.5 LW middy.
Right now, a new one with an H (14.5 pinned) and one with an A5 standard (14.5 pinned). Pretty sure that with a steady diet of good 5.56 either will run with a heavier buffer.
WaldoOneFive
02-25-14, 16:55
I've got an H buffer in my BCM midlength and it runs well so far. I'm using only NATO-pressure 5.56 loads (M855) and am thinking of bumping up to an H2.
You state in your post that you have an "H" buffer in there now and it runs well... So why do you want to change it? You know: "If it ain't broke.. don't fix it?"
Where is your brass landing currently?
I have two 14.5 BCM Middy's (one Govt, one LW) and both run BCM BCG's with H buffers and run flawlessly.
Have a 16inch BFH middy and have been running an H buffer since day one. With brass cased .223, 5.56, and Hornady steel match I have never had an issue, even when dirty. Now Tula and Wolf... well it will generally fire and cycle fine but I get failures to lock back and the occasional instance where it won't pick up the next round from the mag of those two ammo often enough that I would consider dropping to a CAR buffer if I ran them for any length or exclusively. However, since I am down to under 500 rounds of those two I just use to for failure drills when at the range and when I feel too lazy to pick up brass.
wildcard600
02-25-14, 17:09
car buffer... guess i just dont know better.
H2 and white springco. 16 middy
A5-3 in another.
They both run with whatever I put in them.
Have a 16inch BFH middy and have been running an H buffer since day one. With brass cased .223, 5.56, and Hornady steel match I have never had an issue, even when dirty. Now Tula and Wolf... well it will generally fire and cycle fine but I get failures to lock back...
Same set up with blue springco and very similar experiences here. I have experienced failure to lock back with only Tula which is known to have pressure issues. I can't fault any rifle that stumbles firing that junk. But even Tula has never failed to feed for me. All other factory brass & steel cased ammo has cycled flawlessly. I have had no reason to change to anything other than the H buffer.
Same set up with blue springco and very similar experiences here. I have experienced failure to lock back with only Tula which is known to have pressure issues. I can't fault any rifle that stumbles firing that junk. All other factory brass & steel cased ammo has cycled flawlessly. I have had no reason to change to anything other than the H buffer.
Indeed. And I should state that it is not always that it will cause issues running the Tula or Wolf. Have taken them to the range and run 100 rounds without issue. Then at times have a couple boxes and every five rounds I am clear malfs. But with NATO pressure 5.56 and .223 brass cased ammo such as PMC Bronze I have never had an issue so I am not, and can not in good conscience say it is the rifle's fault with that ammo. What should also be noted is that an old Bushmaster Patrolman that I own has also had issue with failures to lock back with a lot of tula I ran that the BCM failed damn near every time to lock back on. So if an over gassed Bushmaster with a CAR buffer and an old spring won't lock back on that shit......
A5 H4 with Sprinco Green spring. Works on both DD and BCM 16" midlengths.
I'm running a standard carbine buffer in my BCM 14.5" middy and it runs perfectly. With factory 5.56 and my reloads. It's been perfectly reliable for over 1K rounds.
ColtSeavers
02-25-14, 17:50
ST-T2 (4.1oz.) with a blue Sprinco spring.
I know the buffer is considered another snake oil item by some, but I've had no issues with it.
I don't shoot Tula or Wolf though.
16" mid with .078" gas port, A5H3, Sprinco green, LMT Enhanced carrier. Flawless with 5.56 and all the .223 I've tried.
My BCM 14.5 mid is bufferd down to a plain old H to keep it running with all ammo kinds. Now adding a suppressor and an A5 to the Bravo Middy would probably be unbeatable.
I guess I should have been a bit more specific. Mine is a BCM 14.5" LW middy. After reading here maybe the H2 isn't such a good idea, at least for dead-nuts reliability across the spectrum.
A5H2 and the DD V5 Middy system is utterly reliable, smooth, and for the cost potentially unbeatable.
Jwknutson17
02-25-14, 18:47
I run an H in one of my 14.5 BCM's and in another BCM 14.5 I run a H2. The second rifle gets a can half the time, but it runs fine still without. I only shoot 5.56 though. I would run Carbine buffers with .223 and un-suppressed. Then you can run any ammo you would like, I would assume.
ST-T2 (4.1oz.) with a blue Sprinco spring.
I know the buffer is considered another snake oil item by some, but I've had no issues with it.
I don't shoot Tula or Wolf though.
That's exactly what I run and it's perfect for me. It will shoot anything I feed it.
I have the Vltor A5 system in my 14.5 noveske mid and an H2 buffer in my 16 noveske mid. Both run very well for me.
MiamiCracker
02-25-14, 19:16
PSA 16in Middy with a Spikes T2 and Blue Sprinco. Cycles PMC, Independence fine, but doesn't like Tula
Outlander Systems
02-25-14, 19:18
If it's a 16", an H2 is good. For a 14.5, I run the H. This is specific to BCM. Other middies have different (larger) ports.
Didn't you and IG run a test on this a few years back?
TacticalMark
02-25-14, 19:33
14.5" BCM, H buffer and Sprinco White cycles everything even PMC Bronze. Runs smooth with a H2 with nato powered ammo, but failed to lock back with Tula and PMC Bronze. H buffer is the ticket for running a variety of ammo.
We did. And some things people need to keep in mind (and I posted about this in my Tuning the Gun 101 thread) are that there are factors that need to be considered such as the gas port size, type of spring, the carrier and ammunition.
Whatever buffer is being used, you should always ensure that your weapon will work with the lowest powered or weakest ammo you have. Or at least know how your ammo performs so that if needed you can swap the buffer over. It has been my experience that if you use the A5 system, with a green Sprinco spring and the -3 buffer your weapon should work with a wide spectrum of ammo.
Didn't you and IG run a test on this a few years back?
The two middies I put together with PSA parts have CAR buffers, and they have been extremely reliable with all ammo used, including steel cased stuff. I have a 20" rifle length that I run a CAR buffer on too, and it has been absolutely great. I see the heavier buffers mostly as a band-aid for an over-gassed rifle or one with too long of a dwell time.
TacMedic556
02-25-14, 22:19
14.5 Middy BCM
H Buffer
Sprinco White (standard carbine strength)
glockshooter
02-25-14, 22:47
I guess to further the discussion I am curious why so many people are using heavier buffers and springs. Is it out of need as in your rifle won't work with a lighter buffer or is because you just simply put heavier buffers and springs in.
I have a range of rifles with different barrel lengths and gas systems. My thought process was to use the lightest one that allowed the gun to work without battering the insides. My rifles include a 10.5" LMT MRP with carbine gas and a H buffer (I tried a H2 but it was not reliable while suppressed), a 11.5" DD SBR (issued) with carbine gas and H buffer, 16" personally built 16" (Noveske SS barrel) mid gas and carbine buffer, and lastly a 18" personally built (Noveske SS SPR barrel) intermediate gas with carbine buffer. All of these rifles are extremely reliable in the current configuration.
I guess I don't understand why you would want to your rifle to borderline not work by using overly heavy buffers and springs. I do understand the reason heavier buffer and springs are made, ie overgased, worn rifles, or eroded gas ports, but I don't get the just because.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Matt
Well that would be a wrong assumption. The rifle buffer weighs between 5.1-5.3 oz. The H3 buffer is the one to equate that the closest.
Colt M4 carbines (MIL) are shipped with H2 buffers. 6920's are shipped with H buffers. The reason many companies use the carbine buffer (2.8 oz) is because they are cheaper. So using the M4 as the baseline a properly built carbine gas system should be using at least an H or H2 buffer. Since there is no standard for a midlength (since there is no TDP) it is best to follow what the companies who build properly gassed guns use. Most mids will function with at least an H and probably an H2 (ammo and gas port dependent).
Using a heavier buffer is generally recommended for smoothing out the gun and reduce wear and tear. It can also be used to slow down the cyclic rate.
The two middies I put together with PSA parts have CAR buffers, and they have been extremely reliable with all ammo used, including steel cased stuff. I have a 20" rifle length that I run a CAR buffer on too, and it has been absolutely great. I see the heavier buffers mostly as a band-aid for an over-gassed rifle or one with too long of a dwell time.
Have you read this? https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141036-Tuning-the-Gun-101. Also I don't anyone here has recommended using a buffer or spring that would compromise the reliability of the weapon. In fact, it's been just the opposite.
Many people would actually benefit from shooting the gun and trying out the different buffers and springs in their guns. They just might be surprised at what they thought was supposed to be and what the reality is.
I guess to further the discussion I am curious why so many people are using heavier buffers and springs. Is it out of need as in your rifle won't work with a lighter buffer or is because you just simply put heavier buffers and springs in.
I have a range of rifles with different barrel lengths and gas systems. My thought process was to use the lightest one that allowed the gun to work without battering the insides. My rifles include a 10.5" LMT MRP with carbine gas and a H buffer (I tried a H2 but it was not reliable while suppressed), a 11.5" DD SBR (issued) with carbine gas and H buffer, 16" personally built 16" (Noveske SS barrel) mid gas and carbine buffer, and lastly a 18" personally built (Noveske SS SPR barrel) intermediate gas with carbine buffer. All of these rifles are extremely reliable in the current configuration.
I guess I don't understand why you would want to your rifle to borderline not work by using overly heavy buffers and springs. I do understand the reason heavier buffer and springs are made, ie overgased, worn rifles, or eroded gas ports, but I don't get the just because.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Matt
H in both Noveske and Colt 6920 16"
glockshooter
02-25-14, 23:19
IG you are obviously a very knowledgable person on this weapon system and I appreciate your input. I also have a fair amount of experience maintaining and building rifles. Nothing like you have over the years, but not a small amount either. I have the same appreciation for a well built weapon as you do. I was personally responsible for transitioning my department away from Bushmaster SBRs and carbines to DD SBRs and Colt 6920s. I am also responsible for maintaining approximately 300 rifles. I say all of that just so you know I'm not a nut job just trying to bust your balls.
I am well versed in all the things listed in that post and I understand how they work in conjunction with the other. I guess my curiosity comes from the use of H3, 9mm, ST-whatever buffer and springs. They are in not way necessary for the rifle to work properly and in some cases can effect reliability by slowing the BCG down to much. I'm just not sure why such heavy buffers (not really referring to H or even H2 in SBRs) are used. There seems to be more downsides than upsides. The reciprocating mass of a heavier buffer and FA BCGs are going to adversely effect the recoil impulse and slow down your ability to take quick shots and again can in some cases be to heavy for your rifle to be reliable with a range of ammo.
bigredneck61088
02-26-14, 00:48
H buffer and BCM standard spring in my noveske 14.5 middy, eats everything
I guess I am not getting your point. A Colt M4 uses an H2 buffer because they are select fire guns. I believe that the Colt 6933 uses either the H2 or H3. Yes, a heavier buffer will slow down the cyclic rate. But, I don't see this as a some kind of downside. In fact, I used a shot time recently and was testing one of our (SIONICS) midlength carbines using the A5 system and Geissle SSA trigger and was able to fire 10 rounds in like 2.6 seconds or something. How much faster do you really need to be? My suppressed SBR's use the Vltor A5 with green Sprinco springs and -4 buffers and there is no doubt that I can shoot it as fast as I reasonably need to.
I use Sprinco springs simply because I have found that they are more consistent across the board in their length and they outlast standard springs.
Let me reiterate once again. Colt guns are the standard whether anyone agrees, it matters not. If we look at how they are configured that gives us the baseline. We can argue about the springs, but the fact is that all Colt carbines come with F/A carriers and the gun was designed to use the F/A carrier from it's beginning. A Spike's ST-2 buffer is actually heavier than an H2 and lighter than an H3 (as I recall). The difference though is that they use powdered tungsten as opposed to tungsten weights.
Colt rifle buffers are 5.1-5.3 oz as stated. That means if you are adding a collapsible stock to a rifle you should be using an H3. If you are shooting a 16" carbine gas system then you should be using an H buffer if not an H2. Midlengths change the equation so common sense has to prevail. If you use too heavy a buffer and the gun doesn't work properly, then common sense will tell you to lighten it up.
IG you are obviously a very knowledgable person on this weapon system and I appreciate your input. I also have a fair amount of experience maintaining and building rifles. Nothing like you have over the years, but not a small amount either. I have the same appreciation for a well built weapon as you do. I was personally responsible for transitioning my department away from Bushmaster SBRs and carbines to DD SBRs and Colt 6920s. I am also responsible for maintaining approximately 300 rifles. I say all of that just so you know I'm not a nut job just trying to bust your balls.
I am well versed in all the things listed in that post and I understand how they work in conjunction with the other. I guess my curiosity comes from the use of H3, 9mm, ST-whatever buffer and springs. They are in not way necessary for the rifle to work properly and in some cases can effect reliability by slowing the BCG down to much. I'm just not sure why such heavy buffers (not really referring to H or even H2 in SBRs) are used. There seems to be more downsides than upsides. The reciprocating mass of a heavier buffer and FA BCGs are going to adversely effect the recoil impulse and slow down your ability to take quick shots and again can in some cases be to heavy for your rifle to be reliable with a range of ammo.
I'm using an H in a Noveske 14.5 middy. Runs fine. Might try am H2 at some point, but haven't had the time.
I've used a buffer so heavy that I have felt the slow swick-swack of the carrier moving back and forth back into battery.
It sucked and I could actually feel the rifle 'moving' or yawing with that movement.
It was the opposite extreme. Too slow, yet 100% reliable.
I have settled on A5H1s and A5H0s, with adjustable gas, on my middies, depending on the barrel manu.
100% reliable, fast, soft shooters.
Nightstalker865
02-26-14, 08:03
H-buffer with the standard BCM spring on my 14.5" BCM middy. This setup shoots flat and chews up any ammo I feed it.
Berserkr556
02-26-14, 08:13
Several BCM BFH 16" Mid-Lengths with H buffer and carbine action spring. Works filthy dirty with LC M193 and M855 which is all I shoot.
I run H3 buffers in my rifles. I like the softer recoil impulse and so far they have run reliably.
I shoot a Noveske 10.5" SBR, a BCM 14.5" Middy and a DD16" Middy all with H2 buffers and blue Sprinco springs. They all run fine with the ammo I shoot. Although I haven't shot any low pressure Wolf or Tula stuff. Don't plan to either.
BufordTJustice
02-26-14, 12:48
Hey Brother, I had a rather lengthy technical post already typed, but the forum dumped it into oblivion. So I'm starting from scratch.....
Regarding the part in your post that I bolded, I have found the opposite. I have found that heavier buffers, when used with a quality spring (Springco White, Colt carbine or BCM carbine that isn't too worn and weak, etc.), actually INCREASE the reliability of the carbines in which they are used as long as the gas port is sized within reason. Specifically regarding 6920's, I have found that malfunctions with frangible training ammo (you know that 45gr bull-nosed sh*t ammo for using in the shoot house and steel pit) are actually reduced when using heavier H2 and H3 buffers and quality extractor springs (such as the Colt Gold, BCM, or Springco 4/5 coil).
I find that the BCG/buffer column seems to work most reliably when it is running slower (what would be equivalent to a lower cyclic rate). I have always found that a gun runs more smoothly when using a heavier buffer than a carbine or H buffer.
I conceptualize it like this: the weapon always has the same amount of gas to cycle the system, regardless of buffer weight or spring rate. Going to a heavier buffer, if spring rate is kept constant, means that it requires more energy to initially move the buffer and that the entire BCG/buffer column will accelerate more slowly and reach a slower peak rearward-speed than would a lighter buffer'd setup. Since the amount of the gas doesn't change, this means a heavier column moving more slowly when it impacts the rear of the Receiver Extension. Since all the acceleration of the BCG happens when the gas tube is still telescoped within the carrier's gas key, increasing buffer weight has the ability to slow this initial acceleration. Yes, this means more weight coming to a stop, but that is moving more slowly. This also means more time for the round stack to move up in the magazine when firing full auto.
My experience (and that of other users here) has supported this.
My use of Vltor's A5 system and specifically their heavier A5H3 and A5H4 buffers (6oz and 6.8oz, respectively) has further confirmed my thoughts. In fact, I have yet to connect my lower using the Vltor rifle spring and the A5H3 buffer to a 6920 and not have it work perfectly using all ammo (including frang).
My experiences have transitioned my thought process to one very similar to IG's. I no longer "worry" about how heavy the buffer is, I am much more concerned that it is too light. Ammo reliability is highest in the A5 system (in my experience), which uses the heaviest buffers of all and a rifle spring. The Springco White is the closest you can get to a rifle spring in a carbine RE. I have never been able to take the same lower with the same spring and buffer and have it work 100% on a Colt SBR suppressed and unsuppressed, a std 6920 non-suppressed, DD 16" middy, BCM 14.5" middy, BCM 16" middy, Colt 20" HBAR, and an 18" rifle-gas upper non-suppressed before using the Vltor A5 system (and, in that case, an A5H4 6.8oz buffer).
Are there some guns that MUST have lighter buffers? Yes, like SR15's and some LMT 14.5" & 16" carbines. But most I have found to benefit from H2's and H3's. I suggest doing some small-scale experiments using H2's and H3's and a quality carbine spring...I think that you'll find that the smooth recoil stroke will surprise you.
Caveat: I have found that some guns, with absolutely hogged-out gas ports can exhibit MORE recoil using an H2 or H3 buffer, in which case this is indeed a bandaid solution (and the solution is to get a barrel that doesn't have a gas port the size of fifty-cent hooker's you-know-what)... but those have always been problem uppers (that won't run with std GI mag's with a green follower at all)....so I write that problem off as a separate issue altogether.
IG you are obviously a very knowledgable person on this weapon system and I appreciate your input. I also have a fair amount of experience maintaining and building rifles. Nothing like you have over the years, but not a small amount either. I have the same appreciation for a well built weapon as you do. I was personally responsible for transitioning my department away from Bushmaster SBRs and carbines to DD SBRs and Colt 6920s. I am also responsible for maintaining approximately 300 rifles. I say all of that just so you know I'm not a nut job just trying to bust your balls.
I am well versed in all the things listed in that post and I understand how they work in conjunction with the other. I guess my curiosity comes from the use of H3, 9mm, ST-whatever buffer and springs. They are in not way necessary for the rifle to work properly and in some cases can effect reliability by slowing the BCG down to much. I'm just not sure why such heavy buffers (not really referring to H or even H2 in SBRs) are used. There seems to be more downsides than upsides. The reciprocating mass of a heavier buffer and FA BCGs are going to adversely effect the recoil impulse and slow down your ability to take quick shots and again can in some cases be to heavy for your rifle to be reliable with a range of ammo.
I'm running a VLTOR A5H2 (5.3oz) buffer along with a Springco 'green' action spring. This is with a Spikes Tactical CHF mid-length barrel with a .076" gas port. Runs like a top with any ammo I've put through it from underpowered Wolf/Tula to 5.56 NATO spec cartridges.
Aimtrue531
02-28-14, 14:18
I have been using the JP enterprises silent capture spring in my ARs and I love it. Worth checking out.
Obscenejesster
02-28-14, 15:58
I just spent 10 minutes trying to find a chart that I saw a while back. It was some testing done with different springs from different manufactures. From what I recall, BCM's spring actually performed the best. I don't believe the test included spring manufactures such as Sprinco.
I run a H2 with BCM spring in a BCM 16 inch middy. Never had a hiccup to date.
Now, to put a fly in the ointment: what about an LMT Enhanced BCG in that same 14.5" BCM middy? Stock carbine buffer then? I had the upper sitting in my safe for a while now, waiting to build it up. Used a CMT BCG initially (with the H buffer) but have the brand new LMT Enhanced wrapped up in an oily Ziplock and would like to use it.
I'm gonna play with it this weekend and see......
ST-T2 Tungsten buffer. No problems at all with a verity of Russian steel cased ammo and some Israeli hot brass.
Outlander Systems
03-01-14, 06:40
I have a 16" middy with an H-Buffer and BCM spring.
I have not used a Sprinco Blue + H2. Anyone running this setup? Any issues? I'm about due for a new action spring, and may upgrade to an H2 and see how it works.
I have a 16" middy with an H-Buffer and BCM spring.
I have not used a Sprinco Blue + H2. Anyone running this setup? Any issues? I'm about due for a new action spring, and may upgrade to an H2 and see how it works.
I have been running the H2/blue springco for thousands of rounds using XM855/193 from federal and IMI. No short stroking or last round lock back issues at all.
Eta - 16" bcm middy.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
MSparks909
03-01-14, 07:31
Now, to put a fly in the ointment: what about an LMT Enhanced BCG in that same 14.5" BCM middy? Stock carbine buffer then? I had the upper sitting in my safe for a while now, waiting to build it up. Used a CMT BCG initially (with the H buffer) but have the brand new LMT Enhanced wrapped up in an oily Ziplock and would like to use it.
I'm gonna play with it this weekend and see......
Try an H buffer as well. If it doesn't lock back with the H then try the C buffer.
Outlander Systems
03-01-14, 10:29
Roger that.
I'll replace my H with an H2 and Springco Blue, and see how she runs.
Thanks for the info.
I have been running the H2/blue springco for thousands of rounds using XM855/193 from federal and IMI. No short stroking or last round lock back issues at all.
Eta - 16" bcm middy.
No problem. I've never tried any weak 223 so I can't comment on how that will work, FYI.
Roger that.
I'll replace my H with an H2 and Springco Blue, and see how she runs.
Thanks for the info.
Obscenejesster
03-01-14, 10:41
I think what buffer/spring set up you use is going to depend on what you use your rifle for.
If the rifle is only going to be used at the range and carbine classes then go with a VLTOR A5 or an H2 with a Blue Sprinco Spring.
If you're a SHTF type person and the rifle is going to be the one you grab for SHTF then I would use an H buffer with either the stock spring or a Blue Sprinco Spring. In a SHTF situation, you're going to want the rifle capable of cycling the weakest ammo reliably. There's a good chance you may not be able to load up every magazine with XM193/855.
Outlander Systems
03-01-14, 11:05
Thanks for the heads-up.
I have, honestly, used nothing but brass 5.56 as long as I've been shooting these things.
No problem. I've never tried any weak 223 so I can't comment on how that will work, FYI.
I'm going to keep the H buffer in my parts drawer, along with some old CAR buffers that have been yanked out and thrown in there, should the need ever arise.
I think what buffer/spring set up you use is going to depend on what you use your rifle for.
If the rifle is only going to be used at the range and carbine classes then go with a VLTOR A5 or an H2 with a Blue Sprinco Spring.
If you're a SHTF type person and the rifle is going to be the one you grab for SHTF then I would use an H buffer with either the stock spring or a Blue Sprinco Spring. In a SHTF situation, you're going to want the rifle capable of cycling the weakest ammo reliably. There's a good chance you may not be able to load up every magazine with XM193/855.
NeoNeanderthal
03-01-14, 11:20
I too run a 16" bcm middy with a BCM spring and an H buffer with no issues. However i run 80% tula and 15% wolf ammo through it. Have always wondered about running an H2 but i'm not sure the TULA has enough power to cycle everything smoothly. I'm sure running real ammo with an H2 is fine, and crappy ammo with an H certainly is. Don't know why you'd ever need a carbine buffer in a 16" DI gun honestly- strange most recreational ar's come with them.
Texashooter
03-01-14, 11:23
A5H3 on 14.5" BCM Mid - I ran a class with it with no issues, this is with full pressured 5.56 ammo though.
Anyone use a blue Sprinco and either an H or H2 in a BCM 14.5 middy? Currently just using a standard spring and H buffer. I'm overdue on a spring change, curious if I can make the gun even smoother.
NeoNeanderthal
03-01-14, 12:27
Anyone use a blue Sprinco and either an H or H2 in a BCM 14.5 middy? Currently just using a standard spring and H buffer. I'm overdue on a spring change, curious if I can make the gun even smoother.
Ditto
14.5" Noveske & BCM and 16" BCM mids all run fine on stock Colt spring and H or H2 buffers.
Then again, everything from from a F/A 6933 to a 20" rifle works for me on a Colt lower with an H or H2.
This is all with M193, 855 and some Federal 55 gr .223.
I don't what's wrong with everyone's stuff who needs an A5 and all this other heavy stuff...
14.5" BCM with a Spikes T2/standard carbine spring. 1000+ rounds and not a single stoppage with any flavor of ammo.
I never paid ant attention to Middys cause I wasn't a fan but I am now as Im in the middle of building my first one. Does a certain buffer weight really make any difference in a Middy? Serious question here. As for my carbines 16" and 14.5" I have used both H and normal weight buffers and had no issues one way or the other, Im sure the H one slowed the action down slightly but it wasn't something needed/noticed by me. But as for Middys and me not knowing technical details about them yet I am curious if they run better with certain buffers? thanks guys
wetidlerjr
03-02-14, 04:40
????????????
I've got an H buffer in my BCM midlength and it runs well so far. I'm using only NATO-pressure 5.56 loads (M855) and am thinking of bumping up to an H2.
Put me down for "Why?".
Put me down for "Why?".
Well from what I've been reading here the H may indeed be the ticket, especially for a wider range of ammo choices (although I'm currently only using 5.56mm-level fodder).
TacticalMark
03-02-14, 10:12
Anyone use a blue Sprinco and either an H or H2 in a BCM 14.5 middy? Currently just using a standard spring and H buffer. I'm overdue on a spring change, curious if I can make the gun even smoother.
Yeah, I tried a blue with h2 in my 14.5. It will cycle spec ammo but it's sluggish and feels on the edge of short stroking. I only ran a 200rd mix of m193 and m855. I switched back to a white (standard power) and H. This isn't fact, just my opinion.
Beat Trash
03-02-14, 10:16
I guess I am confused by the OP's question. If his gun is working, why change?
All of my mid length guns are 16" DD's. They come with H Buffers. (All of my Colt 6920's also came with H buffers.) All of these guns have functioned well with any 5.56mm loading I have shot through them. I don't shoot 223 pressure ammunition in my guns, so I can't comment on the function of 223 in these guns.
I personally don't see the need to change out buffers from a gun that has proven to be 100% reliable for me as is.
Has anyone had a gun malfunction from a heavy buffer? I am running H3 buffers in my middy's and they run great even with Wolf and Silver bear ammo. One of my middy rifles I am running an A2 stock and buffer, all are 16" barrels.
BufordTJustice
03-03-14, 10:56
Has anyone had a gun malfunction from a heavy buffer? I am running H3 buffers in my middy's and they run great even with Wolf and Silver bear ammo. One of my middy rifles I am running an A2 stock and buffer, all are 16" barrels.
This happens so seldom for me, the only time in recent memory was when a buddy's CMMG 16" carbine-gas piston upper (that ended up going back to CMMG to have the entire gas piston system replaced) malf'd with anything but an H-buffer. But that gun also needed a BCM extractor spring to run 100%, so I consider it an oddity.
I seldom come across a non-SBR gun that won't lock back with an H3 using a stock Colt or BCM spring and a quality mag.
As for "why f*ck with it?" Because it's a cheap upgrade that enhances your margin for reliable function AND smooths the recoil impulse for under $40. No other upgrade can do all that. The better question is" "why not experiment with it? It's an easily reversible alteration."
I don't consider it an actual reliability upgrade at all when Colt and BCM already ship all their 100% reliable carbines with H buffers and I've personally shot a few 10K rounds through a carbine gassed Colt and BCM with an H buffer. Granted, I don't gum up my carbine with Frog Lube or any other ridiculousness...
IMNSO the heavier the reciprocating mass, the slower the recoil impulse, the longer the dot dances and the harder it is to get back on target.
I tried a VLTOR A5 and it was the most annoying thing I'd ever done to a carbine for that very reason.
I don't consider it an actual reliability upgrade at all when Colt and BCM already ship all their 100% reliable carbines with H buffers and I've personally shot a few 10K rounds through a carbine gassed Colt and BCM with an H buffer.
Colt has also shipped ramped carriers and solid Polymer rifle buffers in the past. And Colt at one time, like everyone else shipped guns with Carbine buffers. We know none of that crap is acceptable.
Now running an H in a carbean is certainly going to give you a mildly over-gassed gun that's more forgiving of crappy ammo. I don't find that approach to be bad. The H2 however most closely matched the physics of a rifle system.... which is the entire point of the A5.
If you find the recoil impulse bothersome, I can't argue that. That's your preference, and you're clearly nuts. ;)
Granted, I don't gum up my carbine with Frog Lube or any other ridiculousness...
I'd like to hear more about this. I don't typically read too many lube threads, but I've had good luck with froglube. But if it can cause problems, I'm all ears. I've seen Pappabear squeeze the dropper out of my bottles and end up with half a bottle in his gun and it's never been an issue other than getting everywhere.
Obscenejesster
03-03-14, 13:58
I never paid ant attention to Middys cause I wasn't a fan but I am now as Im in the middle of building my first one. Does a certain buffer weight really make any difference in a Middy? Serious question here. As for my carbines 16" and 14.5" I have used both H and normal weight buffers and had no issues one way or the other, Im sure the H one slowed the action down slightly but it wasn't something needed/noticed by me. But as for Middys and me not knowing technical details about them yet I am curious if they run better with certain buffers? thanks guys
What is a normal wight buffer. Most would assume a normal wight buffer is an H buffer being how that is now a military specification on the M4 platform.
There's a reason why any AR worth buying comes standard with an H buffer and there's a reason why the military switched to the H buffer from a Carbine buffer.
There's a reason why any AR worth buying comes standard with an H buffer and there's a reason why the military switched to the H buffer from a Carbine buffer.
Yep... they're still slow to get a clue. rsilvers did the math and the H2 is closest one can get to the Rifle system within the constraints of the Carbine action spring and RE.
An H is a huge leap forward from a carbine buffer, but the H2 is still better than that on a carbine with the correct gas port... and the Mathematically (not subjective) correct answer.... assuming you agree that the rifle buffer system is optimal.
If it's a 16", an H2 is good. For a 14.5, I run the H. This is specific to BCM. Other middies have different (larger) ports.
I run an H3 in my 14.5" BCM upper, runs great even with Wolf.
I run an H3 in my 14.5" BCM upper, runs great even with Wolf.
Mine ran the H3 too when it was new.... but I've had gas tube problems. My first tube was worn down at the carrier key and was puking gas forward. I couldn't see the build up under the rail. But when I pulled the tube it had worn down to about 0.163" on a spec of 0.180". Still haven't fully figured that one out.
14.5" BCM EAG upper - I currently have an "H" buffer installed and while the upper was on the newer side it would not reliably cycle Wolf/Tula/weaker ammunition (mostly a failure to feed/short stroke); I am aware of the manufacturers comments regarding this. After a steady diet of about 1000 rounds of 5.56 spec ammo it has no issues with any type of ammunition attempted with the H buffer.
The rifle shoots so softly already, I don't see much reason to experiment any further; and all other mid-lengths I own also do just fine with an "H." I only brought up the 14.5" because it was the sole example of a mid-length having any form of malfunctions.
My go-to/SHTF mid-length carbine (16" BCM) uses an H buffer with blue Springco and Springco 5 coil extractor spring. It is 100% reliable thus far and works with all ammo I've tried. I've tried an H2 and H3 and they also work just fine, but I want a greater margin of reliability with this particular weapon, so I don't chance it with what could be too heavy of a buffer if Murphy decides to show up at the wrong time. BCM ships with an H, so that is what I use. Call me unimaginative.
I also have an 18" mid-length SPR that, so far, functions perfectly with an H3 and blue Springco, but I'm still trying to vet that one as it is new. We are getting some really cold days here in Minnesota and I have been able to test all of my guns by leaving the weapon and ammo outside for about an hour or two, then shoot around six mags loaded with 3 rounds each. If it locks back 100% on a -15 degree day, I will trust it. This method also tests my lube choice and I've found that Slip2000 EWL, FireClean, and Mobile 1 10w30 all work just fine at those temps. Grease, fyi, not so much.
A Spike's ST-2 buffer is actually heavier than an H2 and lighter than an H3 (as I recall). The difference though is that they use powdered tungsten as opposed to tungsten weights.
Just clarify, the ST-T2 is in between H and H2. My two samples weighed 4.0 and 4.1 ounces. I've seen them weighed as low as 3.8 ounces which is standard carbine territory. After watching the high-speed video of how they still allow some bolt bounce, I no longer use them in favor of a H or H2 buffer.
I knew it was in between something. Thanks for the clarification. I have never used them nor would I.
My go-to/SHTF mid-length carbine (16" BCM) uses an H buffer with blue Springco and Springco 5 coil extractor spring. It is 100% reliable thus far and works with all ammo I've tried. I've tried an H2 and H3 and they also work just fine, but I want a greater margin of reliability with this particular weapon, so I don't chance it with what could be too heavy of a buffer if Murphy decides to show up at the wrong time. BCM ships with an H, so that is what I use. Call me unimaginative.
I also have an 18" mid-length SPR that, so far, functions perfectly with an H3 and blue Springco, but I'm still trying to vet that one as it is new. We are getting some really cold days here in Minnesota and I have been able to test all of my guns by leaving the weapon and ammo outside for about an hour or two, then shoot around six mags loaded with 3 rounds each. If it locks back 100% on a -15 degree day, I will trust it. This method also tests my lube choice and I've found that Slip2000 EWL, FireClean, and Mobile 1 10w30 all work just fine at those temps. Grease, fyi, not so much.
Just clarify, the ST-T2 is in between H and H2. My two samples weighed 4.0 and 4.1 ounces. I've seen them weighed as low as 3.8 ounces which is standard carbine territory. After watching the high-speed video of how they still allow some bolt bounce, I no longer use them in favor of a H or H2 buffer.
ColtSeavers
03-03-14, 16:36
Just clarify, the ST-T2 is in between H and H2. My two samples weighed 4.0 and 4.1 ounces. I've seen them weighed as low as 3.8 ounces which is standard carbine territory. After watching the high-speed video of how they still allow some bolt bounce, I no longer use them in favor of a H or H2 buffer.
Something that's always bothered me about that high speed vuurwhapen blog test video is that the ST-T2 they used was out of spec, weighing only 3.8oz. instead of the 4.1oz. (if memory serves) it's supposed to. Why they decided to do the test with an out of spec piece of equipment, that subsequently did not function very well (big surprise?) instead of sending it back and getting/using an in spec ST-T2 is beyond me and the resulting damning of the product should instead be a damning of the test first and foremost IMO.
I am an ST-T2 user, I have weighed it (4.1 oz. as it should be), and have had no problems with it or the rifle it is in.
Though, to be completely fair, I have not set up my own high speed video side by side comparison with multiple guns and buffers test, so I must admit to having only anecdotal evidence of credible performance at best
ETA: For the record, I am in no way shape or form advocating that anyone/everyone should use an ST-T2. I am only stating that I have yet to perceive any problems with the use of my ST-T2 that would warrent it's replacement by a standard weighted type of buffer. I also wonder why people that have switched out their ST-T2s for standard weighted buffers did so if the only reason was because of the results of the (faulty) video test.
I caught the same thing (wrong weight) and also ignored the results of the faulty test video and run the ST-T2 in all of my rifles. They function perfectly.
I have no idea why they would run the test with an out of spec piece of equipment.
Something that's always bothered me about that high speed vuurwhapen blog test video is that the ST-T2 they used was out of spec, weighing only 3.8oz. instead of the 4.1oz. (if memory serves) it's supposed to. Why they decided to do the test with an out of spec piece of equipment, that subsequently did not function very well (big surprise?) instead of sending it back and getting/using an in spec ST-T2 is beyond me and the resulting damning of the product should instead be a damning of the test first and foremost IMO.
I am an ST-T2 user, I have weighed it (4.1 oz. as it should be), and have had no problems with it or the rifle it is in.
Though, to be completely fair, I have not set up my own high speed video side by side comparison with multiple guns and buffers test, so I must admit to having only anecdotal evidence of credible performance at best
ETA: For the record, I am in no way shape or form advocating that anyone/everyone should use an ST-T2. I am only stating that I have yet to perceive any problems with the use of my ST-T2 that would warrent it's replacement by a standard weighted type of buffer. I also wonder why people that have switched out their ST-T2s for standard weighted buffers did so if the only reason was because of the results of the (faulty) video test.
Hey Colt,
I, too, noticed the discrepancy. However, I am not sure how much difference .3oz is going to make. The H buffer is spec'd at 3.7oz and it subjectively did a better job of mitigating bolt bounce in the video.
Speaking to your curiosity about swapping out the buffer due to the video, I'm guilty of that. The performance just didn't sit right with me. Granted, I am not using it in a full auto weapon, so maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I do see bolt bounce as being undesirable, especially in a weapon I would reach for if things went tits up. Had I not seen the video, I would probably be none the wiser but, as with their logo, once you see it, you cannot un-see it.
Full disclosure: I do have another 16" middy with a ST-T2 still in it. It runs just fine with it's FN CHF barrel. This is not my primary, so I'm not as worried. I REALLY want to like the product. It's well made, looks great, and the concept is innovative (H&K). But, if that dog doesn't hunt....
I guess at the end of the day, you all should run what you prefer best.
Obscenejesster
03-03-14, 20:53
Yep... they're still slow to get a clue. rsilvers did the math and the H2 is closest one can get to the Rifle system within the constraints of the Carbine action spring and RE.
An H is a huge leap forward from a carbine buffer, but the H2 is still better than that on a carbine with the correct gas port... and the Mathematically (not subjective) correct answer.... assuming you agree that the rifle buffer system is optimal.
Oh, I completely agree. I was referring to a mid-length since that's what the guy was talking about buying. I have a 16" Carbine that I have ran with a H3 and stock spring or the H2 with a Red Sprinco. I couldn't get her to hold the bolt back when using low powered ammo along with the H3 and Red spring so I settled with the H2 and Red Sprinco. That combo felt pretty good and cycled everything I fed it.
People probably switched because they realized that there is no real benefit to using a powdered tungsten buffer as opposed to a correctly made Creed Monarch buffer. I know some companies actually weight their buffers when they come in and send the ones back that do not meet the spec.
Something that's always bothered me about that high speed vuurwhapen blog test video is that the ST-T2 they used was out of spec, weighing only 3.8oz. instead of the 4.1oz. (if memory serves) it's supposed to. Why they decided to do the test with an out of spec piece of equipment, that subsequently did not function very well (big surprise?) instead of sending it back and getting/using an in spec ST-T2 is beyond me and the resulting damning of the product should instead be a damning of the test first and foremost IMO.
I am an ST-T2 user, I have weighed it (4.1 oz. as it should be), and have had no problems with it or the rifle it is in.
Though, to be completely fair, I have not set up my own high speed video side by side comparison with multiple guns and buffers test, so I must admit to having only anecdotal evidence of credible performance at best
ETA: For the record, I am in no way shape or form advocating that anyone/everyone should use an ST-T2. I am only stating that I have yet to perceive any problems with the use of my ST-T2 that would warrent it's replacement by a standard weighted type of buffer. I also wonder why people that have switched out their ST-T2s for standard weighted buffers did so if the only reason was because of the results of the (faulty) video test.
I think that they (VWB) used the 3.8 oz buffer because Spikes was willing to send it out the door at 3.8 oz...
If they're (Spikes) willing to have a 7% variance and still ship product out the door, then that is what you should expect from the product.
ColtSeavers
03-03-14, 23:40
I think that they (VWB) used the 3.8 oz buffer because Spikes was willing to send it out the door at 3.8 oz...
If they're (Spikes) willing to have a 7% variance and still ship product out the door, then that is what you should expect from the product.
This makes absolutely no sense. None. If a company states the specs for a product, you buy that product, and that product does not meet the stated specs... you return it for replacement or refund.
No company is immune to producing lemons.
Just because Vuurwhappen decided to completely ignore common sense, that should in no way affect others' ability to exercise common sense.
ETA: I apologize if this comes across as me singling out Stormin. I am not. I simply used his post to highlight and hopefully correct a faulty consumer attitude.
Agreed.
I think that they (VWB) used the 3.8 oz buffer because Spikes was willing to send it out the door at 3.8 oz...
If they're (Spikes) willing to have a 7% variance and still ship product out the door, then that is what you should expect from the product.
Outlander Systems
03-04-14, 06:48
Exactly. It's a gimmick, at best.
There is no reason to switch to a non-standard type buffer, other than the perception that it is superior; it isn't.
People probably switched because they realized that there is no real benefit to using a powdered tungsten buffer as opposed to a correctly made Creed Monarch buffer. I know some companies actually weight their buffers when they come in and send the ones back that do not meet the spec.
Mine ran the H3 too when it was new.... but I've had gas tube problems. My first tube was worn down at the carrier key and was puking gas forward. I couldn't see the build up under the rail. But when I pulled the tube it had worn down to about 0.163" on a spec of 0.180". Still haven't fully figured that one out.
Mark- I believe this happened to me as well. I discussed it in Buford's post about the 14.5/LMT Enhanced/ a5 post. My 14.5 ran perfect for a while then started choking in the good stuff. I ended up sending it back to BCM and they sent it back fixed. There was no write up on what they did but it's what I assumed they did. You don't shoot steel cases though right?
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Mark- I believe this happened to me as well. I discussed it in Buford's post about the 14.5/LMT Enhanced/ a5 post. My 14.5 ran perfect for a while then started choking in the good stuff. I ended up sending it back to BCM and they sent it back fixed. There was no write up on what they did but it's what I assumed they did. You don't shoot steel cases though right?
I ran a handful of steel cased ammo I'm sure, but not much. Generally all brass cased. I wonder if there wasn't a bad/soft batch of gas tube. It took me quite a while to figure the problem out.
I have a 16" middy with an H-Buffer and BCM spring.
I have not used a Sprinco Blue + H2. Anyone running this setup? Any issues? I'm about due for a new action spring, and may upgrade to an H2 and see how it works.
I shoot a Noveske 10.5" SBR, a BCM 14.5" Middy and a DD16" Middy all with H2 buffers and blue Sprinco springs. They all run fine with the ammo I shoot. Although I haven't shot any low pressure Wolf or Tula stuff. Don't plan to either
I'm running an H in my 14.5" Daniel Defense mid-length. H2 would would have issues with steel-cased ammunition. I worked down to an H and problems went away. I mostly shoot 5.56 or quality hand loads in this rifle, but want it to run anything I put in it.
My two 16" BCM mid-lenths with H2s had issues with Tula, Wolf, etc so I'm running carbine buffers in them. The H seemed fine, but I only have a few H buffers, so those are in carbine gas systems and the 14.5". I really couldn't tell much difference in the way the guns run between the H and Carbine, so no reason to by more Hs for backup guns.
All my buffers and springs are Colt or BCM for what its worth.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
03-04-14, 15:26
Anyone use a blue Sprinco and either an H or H2 in a BCM 14.5 middy? Currently just using a standard spring and H buffer. I'm overdue on a spring change, curious if I can make the gun even smoother.
I run the blue Sprinco and an H2 buffer in my Centurion Arms 14.5" middy-- over 8K rounds fired using all kinds of stuff from XM855 to Tula. No problems whatsoever. This is the spring/buffer combo I used in all my guns-- 16" middy, carbine and a 14.5" carbine.
H2... Me likey a smooth shooter
Granted, I don't gum up my carbine with Frog Lube or any other ridiculousness...
Bump... I'd still like to hear what the scoop is on this. I don't want to be recommending a product that's problematic.
samuse? anyone?
SpeedRacer
03-05-14, 08:54
Bump... I'd still like to hear what the scoop is on this. I don't want to be recommending a product that's problematic.
samuse? anyone?
I used FrogLube for a while. Under most conditions, and with regular use it's a great lube. I love the fact that it stays where you put it until fired. I used it all last year and did lots of shooting with great results. The "gummy" problems I had heard about never made much sense to me until recently. I didn't do much shooting this winter, and had several guns sitting unfired for around 4 months. Took them out for a class in January and it didn't go well. Whether from sitting up, the cold weather (temps in the low 20s), or a combination of both, the FrogLube had basically turned into something resembling molasses. Caused several issues until it heated up and thinned out again after working through a mag or two.
I wouldn't recommend it for guns that will be treated and put away for any length of time, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone in cold climates. Personally, I just moved on. I loved a lot about the stuff but the stipulations overpower the benefits to me. I'm back to good ol' Mobil 1 for now, although I am testing Fireclean and RandCLP on a couple guns with good results so far.
That makes sense. I mean.... I've only observed it in the desert environment. But watching it set up a little when it cools off made me wonder about it in actual COLD weather.
funkybassplayer
03-05-14, 13:22
I'm using one of the JP Enterprises captured buffer/spring setups. Runs smooth as a bowl of exlax and no more cheese grater noise. Lol
-BTO-
Bump... I'd still like to hear what the scoop is on this. I don't want to be recommending a product that's problematic.
samuse? anyone?
All kinds of reports of that stuff gumming up guns everywhere but here.
The instructions are ridiculous and the claims they make are so far fetched I don't see how anyone with any common sense thinks it would be a worthwhile PITA.
I've never tried the stuff myself, but I don't need to. You tell me to hit my gun with a hair-dryer, and smear on some vegetable grease that will soak through the finish and into the pores of a hard-ass steel gun, and disappear, only to return again (a visible amount nonetheless) when I shoot the gun... Yeah.
I've never read the instructions, but I've had people ask me crazy stuff about heating the parts and all this. I've never heated up anything.
You don't have to do all of that stuff. The worst thing you can do is give retard gun people guidelines... be it ATF regs or Lube instructions. Most gun people are incapable of thinking for themselves and were aparently beaten for coloring outside the lines as kids.
I can tell you the lube works fine when deployed properly. I was given samples several times before I tried it. I'd lived through many prior lube sales pitches, so I didn't pay much attention. I don't know much about the instructions or claims... just that it's the best warm climate lube I've ever used for the AR.
Two likely reasons for Froglube problems I could see would be, 1. Cold... the stuff sets up as it cools... and 2. Guns attract retards. No telling what dumb stuff people are doing with the product.
(I don't want to give the impression that I'm shilling the stuff... just stating my experience. Pappabear bought a bulk of it and gave me some of his to use and I've been happy with it.)
SomeOtherGuy
03-05-14, 16:42
I used FrogLube for a while. Under most conditions, and with regular use it's a great lube. I love the fact that it stays where you put it until fired. I used it all last year and did lots of shooting with great results. The "gummy" problems I had heard about never made much sense to me until recently. I didn't do much shooting this winter, and had several guns sitting unfired for around 4 months. Took them out for a class in January and it didn't go well. Whether from sitting up, the cold weather (temps in the low 20s), or a combination of both, the FrogLube had basically turned into something resembling molasses. Caused several issues until it heated up and thinned out again after working through a mag or two.
I wouldn't recommend it for guns that will be treated and put away for any length of time, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone in cold climates. Personally, I just moved on. I loved a lot about the stuff but the stipulations overpower the benefits to me. I'm back to good ol' Mobil 1 for now, although I am testing Fireclean and RandCLP on a couple guns with good results so far.
Nearly identical experience here. My primary reason for switching to FL was not liking the puddle of SLIP2000 in my buffer tubes after lubing the gun and putting it in the rack. At first, I really liked FL, bordering on love. It seemed to be everything that was claimed. And I think if you use it in a warm environment and clean and re-apply every month or two, it probably is. But I too have some guns that get stored a lot, and we had a bitter cold winter here (not over yet), and FL that's been sitting for 6+ months dries out and becomes a sort of chalky thing with limited lubricating abilities. Meanwhile I got around to trying some Weaponshield that I bought like 4 or 5 years ago and hadn't used (because I was handed SLIP2000 around the same time, and went from that to FL), and WS seems to make things as slick as FL without requiring mystical incantations. Haven't used it long enough to see how it acts 6+ months after application, but since it's an oil, I'm guessing that whatever hasn't run off will still work.
Long story short, I've played the miracle wonderlube game enough times now, and am settling down to "buy anything decent, re-apply regularly."
My midlength 16" carbines run mostly H buffers. Without knowing the gas port size or brand, I think it's hard to say that "X" buffer is the right choice for a particular setup. Anyway, I'm gradually migrating to the A5 system. This past weekend I was testing two lowers and ran the same (ARP) 16" middie on both, and could both feel the recoil difference and see two distinct piles of brass from the two different setups (A5 and carbine-H buffer).
Nearly identical experience here. My primary reason for switching to FL was not liking the puddle of SLIP2000 in my buffer tubes after lubing the gun and putting it in the rack. At first, I really liked FL, bordering on love. It seemed to be everything that was claimed. And I think if you use it in a warm environment and clean and re-apply every month or two, it probably is. But I too have some guns that get stored a lot, and we had a bitter cold winter here (not over yet), and FL that's been sitting for 6+ months dries out and becomes a sort of chalky thing with limited lubricating abilities. Meanwhile I got around to trying some Weaponshield that I bought like 4 or 5 years ago and hadn't used (because I was handed SLIP2000 around the same time, and went from that to FL), and WS seems to make things as slick as FL without requiring mystical incantations. Haven't used it long enough to see how it acts 6+ months after application, but since it's an oil, I'm guessing that whatever hasn't run off will still work.
Long story short, I've played the miracle wonderlube game enough times now, and am settling down to "buy anything decent, re-apply regularly."
My midlength 16" carbines run mostly H buffers. Without knowing the gas port size or brand, I think it's hard to say that "X" buffer is the right choice for a particular setup. Anyway, I'm gradually migrating to the A5 system. This past weekend I was testing two lowers and ran the same (ARP) 16" middie on both, and could both feel the recoil difference and see two distinct piles of brass from the two different setups (A5 and carbine-H buffer).
Curiously, I'm more sold on Froglube now - when it does get cold, I can burn through the piles of CLP I've recently relegated to bicycle chain lube (fantastic at that).
MSparks909
03-05-14, 23:52
The worst thing you can do is give retard gun people guidelines... be it ATF regs or Lube instructions. Most gun people are incapable of thinking for themselves and were aparently beaten for coloring outside the lines as kids.
Sig material right here. Too many people overlook the buffer/gun lube deal.
Well I have been using it for 3 years now and have yet to experience any of the horror stories I keep hearing about. My AR's run 100% and they have yet seize up or anything else. YMMV
All kinds of reports of that stuff gumming up guns everywhere but here.
The instructions are ridiculous and the claims they make are so far fetched I don't see how anyone with any common sense thinks it would be a worthwhile PITA.
I've never tried the stuff myself, but I don't need to. You tell me to hit my gun with a hair-dryer, and smear on some vegetable grease that will soak through the finish and into the pores of a hard-ass steel gun, and disappear, only to return again (a visible amount nonetheless) when I shoot the gun... Yeah.
Nearly identical experience here. My primary reason for switching to FL was not liking the puddle of SLIP2000 in my buffer tubes after lubing the gun and putting it in the rack.
That's a lot of lube for a gun going into storage. When I was using petroleum lubes, I'd just put a light coat and put the gun away.... And just keep a bottle in my gear for when it was time to shoot.
Well ya'll can like that stuff all ya'll want. I'll be here waiting for the next thing to catch ya'lls attention.
M4Carbine will generally hate on Froglube at some point.
I still kick myself for not buying gallons of mil issue Breakfree a few years ago.
Well ya'll can like that stuff all ya'll want. I'll be here waiting for the next thing to catch ya'lls attention.
M4Carbine will generally hate on Froglube at some point.
I still kick myself for not buying gallons of mil issue Breakfree a few years ago.
I'm trying to keep an open mind an hear your point. But frankly you're coming off like a child with a sour grapes mentality. The folks here, including myself, who are successfully using it aren't new to the AR game. I'm sure there are dozens of accounts of Arfcom booger eaters in Minnesooter who had problems... but those fukktards can screw up anything in their Spikes tactical guns.
This site isn't easily sold on phony products. Take the Nano Lube goobers that tried to sell their nonsense here a year or two back as an example. It took less than a day to shoot holes in their claims.
Well back to the A5...
How is spring life compared to a carbine spring? Do ya'll like the spring that comes with the kit?
I'm still liking the idea of the A5 even though I didn't like it the time I tried it. I am however sitting on two complete A5 kits and I love the Emod stock so I'm thinking about giving it another try since I'm due for a spring on usin' lower...
BufordTJustice
03-06-14, 14:52
Well back to the A5...
How is spring life compared to a carbine spring? Do ya'll like the spring that comes with the kit?
I'm still liking the idea of the A5 even though I didn't like it the time I tried it. I am however sitting on two complete A5 kits and I love the Emod stock so I'm thinking about giving it another try since I'm due for a spring on usin' lower...
Spring life has been much better for me with the stock Vltor rifle spring than with any non CS carbine spring. No difference in spring pressure between a 5k spring and a brand new one according to my scale.
One of the benefits of using a rifle spring, I'd guess.
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I have a friend who bought FL about a year (two?) ago or whenever it was getting a lot of attention. He put it on his 1911s, glocks and ARs. I know some guns only get shot once a year, but for whatever reason he really hates the FL now--I have also read the bad press, but it mostly seemed related to cold weather or leaving it sitting on guns for a long time and getting tacky. I was going to ask him for his to try out, BUT I still haven't decided what I like better between SLIP EWL and FireClean.
So far I really like both a lot--it may take a year or more to see if I prefer one over the other.
The smoothest cycling AR I've ever handled was Vicker's new-ish BCM KMR. I really wish I'd checked his buffer and spring when I was on the range with it (and no one was around). He was selling FireClean, so I assume that's what was in it--but maybe not. Whatever it was, it felt like the BCG was gliding on ice.
16" middy
H buffer on semiauto lowers
H2 buffer on fullauto lowers
I use a Spike's Tactical T2 buffer in my 16" midlength rifle.
Mark me down as using an H2, so far so good.
JP Silent captured spring.
16" midlength, rifle buffer/spring (which I think I recall reading is the same weight as an H3) A1 fixed stock.
16" midlength, rifle buffer/spring (which I think I recall reading is the same weight as an H3) A1 fixed stock.
Weight is not apples to apples when you switch from a Rifle/A5 to a carbine system or vice versa.
BufordTJustice
03-18-14, 09:01
Weight is not apples to apples when you switch from a Rifle/A5 to a carbine system or vice versa.
Exactly. That's why the H2 buffer with a CARBINE SPRING has been deemed to be the functional equivalent of the rifle system because there are substantial differences in the spring rate between the carbine and rifle recoil systems.
????????????
I've got an H buffer in my BCM midlength and it runs well so far. I'm using only NATO-pressure 5.56 loads (M855) and am thinking of bumping up to an H2.
I ran a spikes tungsten h2 buffer in my 14.5" mid for a while but it choked on 223 in the cold sometimes(ftfeed). I run the carbine buffer now - I actually prefer the quicker cycle anyways since I'm not running auto. Its been 100% since.
FWIW, its a centurion barrel, 14.5" straight from them.
Weight is not apples to apples when you switch from a Rifle/A5 to a carbine system or vice versa.
Understood. As far as my setup goes, I'm fairly happy with it, though obviously it lacks the versatility of something like an A5 setup.
Wolfhound86
03-20-14, 01:43
I've run both H and H2 in my bcm 14.5" middy, they both work great.
I'm running a PWS H2 buffer in mine. It cycles everything I've put through it (Wolf, Brown Bear, PMC, Georgia Arms, Winchester, etc, etc).
I got a H buffer from BCM and a damage industry's Crome silicon carbine spring on a BCM 16" middy kmr and it runs great
I have a friend who bought FL about a year (two?) ago or whenever it was getting a lot of attention. He put it on his 1911s, glocks and ARs. I know some guns only get shot once a year, but for whatever reason he really hates the FL now--I have also read the bad press, but it mostly seemed related to cold weather or leaving it sitting on guns for a long time and getting tacky. I was going to ask him for his to try out, BUT I still haven't decided what I like better between SLIP EWL and FireClean.
So far I really like both a lot--it may take a year or more to see if I prefer one over the other.
The smoothest cycling AR I've ever handled was Vicker's new-ish BCM KMR. I really wish I'd checked his buffer and spring when I was on the range with it (and no one was around). He was selling FireClean, so I assume that's what was in it--but maybe not. Whatever it was, it felt like the BCG was gliding on ice.
I tried Froglube. It just wasn't that impressive. Mainly, it turned to sludge, like you said if it set up a while it got sticky and was like old Elmer's glue. Charging a dirty weapon felt very "gritty". FIREClean is what I use now, and it alleviated all of that. I would not have believed it if I had not used it on my suppressed .22 pistol and seen how much smoother the slide was to rack after a few hundred rounds vs. another CLP I was testing. I thought the "melts carbon" junk was just BS, but it seems to work as advertised.
As to buffers, I run an H buffer in my 16" middy (Daniel Defense). I also put H buffers in my friend's 16" middy PSA upper builds I helped buy for them. None of our weapons have ever malfunctioned (I am sure one day they will) that was not attributed to user error (friends are new to M4 platform, babied CH, not seated mag, etc.) All empties go to 3:30-4. Guns just chug along. Even suppressed, mine works fine. Cases kick out to 2:30-3, but hit a different part of the deflector. It doesn't feel violent to me nearly like my 10.5" gun does with the same can and an H2 or H3 buffer and Blue Sprinco. (I use white sprinco in the middy)
StevieJ309
03-20-14, 18:15
H buffer. Wouldn't mind trying an H2, though.
I tried Froglube. It just wasn't that impressive. Mainly, it turned to sludge, like you said if it set up a while it got sticky and was like old Elmer's glue. Charging a dirty weapon felt very "gritty".
Was this in cold weather? I've read a few posts like this but have never had any similar experience in the 2 or 3 years I've been running it.
I tried Froglube. It just wasn't that impressive. Mainly, it turned to sludge, like you said if it set up a while it got sticky and was like old Elmer's glue. Charging a dirty weapon felt very "gritty".
Slip 2000 EWL is all I use. Doesn't get tacky and a few drops will spread out over everything.
All of my middies are 16" and they all use h-buffers with Wolff SP springs. After tweaking one that I built from scratch, they all run flawlessly and will eat anything I feed them. The others are all DD or BCM uppered, so that could have something to do with it.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, since lube is being discussed, I just gave up the search for the grail lube and run Breakfree CLP in all of my guns.
SomeOtherGuy
03-21-14, 20:51
Was this in cold weather? I've read a few posts like this but have never had any similar experience in the 2 or 3 years I've been running it.
This is an observation and not an attack - the people most satisfied with Froglube seem to be resident in Arizona or Florida. The people reporting problems seem to be in the upper midwest. I thought it was the best thing ever when I started using it in early summer 2012 and used it heavily through that fall. Having now used it in winter conditions (far more severe this year than last year) and seen what it turns into after sitting for 6+ months, I'm going back to any of various oils. After a while in storage it dries out and turns into a chalky soap sort of thing, that doesn't work well, at least when it isn't hot. Just like Shao said, I am also giving up the miracle-lube quest, and will be reverting to SLIP2000 and Weaponshield until I use up my supplies of each - which will probably take years. I'll probably keep using FL on a few guns that only get used in summer, and it also works great on door latch strike plates.
My friend who had issues is in FL like me. It sat on his Kimber for a long time and dried out or something.
I'm happy with Slip EWL and FireClean, but I use WeaponShield grease on a few spots like rails.
Okay, kept the H buffer and did not switch to the H2. Put in the LMT Enhanced BCG (bolt and carrier) and it ran fine with M855. So I now know that a BCM middy will work with an H buffer and an Enhanced BCG using mil-spec ammunition. Next time out I'll try the H2 just for shits and giggles (forgot to take it with me yesterday).
This is an observation and not an attack - the people most satisfied with Froglube seem to be resident in Arizona or Florida. The people reporting problems seem to be in the upper midwest. I thought it was the best thing ever when I started using it in early summer 2012 and used it heavily through that fall. Having now used it in winter conditions (far more severe this year than last year) and seen what it turns into after sitting for 6+ months, I'm going back to any of various oils. After a while in storage it dries out and turns into a chalky soap sort of thing, that doesn't work well, at least when it isn't hot.
I wonder if there aren't formula variations too... The stuff I run is early production, and I thought I read where they'd changed the formula a little.
There's like 3 or 4 guys on this forum who love Froglube and it seems to work for them.
Everyone else on the 'net claims the stuff turns to shit and gums up their guns. EVERYONE.
There's like 3 or 4 guys on this forum who love Froglube and it seems to work for them.
Everyone else on the 'net claims the stuff turns to shit and gums up their guns. EVERYONE.
Quoted for the record... (just so you can't edit and piss backwards) ;)
pohjeekiller
03-25-14, 11:06
H buffer in my BCM 14.5". Runs flawlessly with all loads. Don't know about subsonic rounds though.
H buffer in my BCM 14.5". Runs flawlessly with all loads. Don't know about subsonic rounds though.
I was running the A5 this weekend and it felt really good, but every so often it'd give me a weird recoil impulse. The brass stacks up nice at about 4, but an occasional ejection would go somewhere like 3. No malfs or anything, just a few strange cycles in slow fire.
I kinda like the H buffer for 14.5 mid when it's BCM because their gas ports are sized on that smaller end. .076 I think.
I have a 14.5" build that runs awesome with an H2 & standard carbine spring. It cycles so smooth & it'll practically dump a mags worth of brass into Folgers can at 4 o'clock. I also have a myriad of other ARs, some A5s with varying buffer weights & pretty colored springs. None of them run as good as that 14.5".
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My BCM 14.5 middy runs soft and smooth with H2 buffer and standard carbine spring when compared to two other 16" middys (BCM & PSA) that run H3 buffers with blue (BCM) and red (PSA) action springs. I almost explicitly run factory 5.56 pressured ammo with no issues. If I do happen to run 223 I switch out to an H buffer and leave the springs as they are.
Sprinco blue spring, H buffer behind a 14.5" middy LW total BCM upper w/ BC 1.5, Slip 2000, ejects to 4:00, so far eats almost anything (have not tried sub-sonic).
Have a rifle using a DD 14.5 Middy Govt Profile barrel and have using a H buffer in it since day one over two years ago with no issues to report. I also have a 14.5 BCM middy that I've been running with a H2 and cycles everything but some no name steel case someone gave me. I'm fairly certain if I used a H or Car buffer, it would cycle cause it barely missed picking up the next steel case round when I tested the rifle with it. It would be hit or miss with the H2.
Shoulderthinggoesup
03-25-14, 22:38
Using the A5 system with an 16in noveske n4 light middy. Stone cold reliable from wolf to m855.
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This isn't a Froglube thread. And since you have no FIRST HAND information you really can't say a whole lot.
There's like 3 or 4 guys on this forum who love Froglube and it seems to work for them.
Everyone else on the 'net claims the stuff turns to shit and gums up their guns. EVERYONE.
LET'S FOCUS ON THE BUFFER QUESTION AND NOT LUBE.
I'm running an H, and have an H2, but haven't tried it yet. Rifle is a Barnes Precision Machine 14.5" middy.
Was this in cold weather? I've read a few posts like this but have never had any similar experience in the 2 or 3 years I've been running it.
Sorry, I made a Froglube post because I had not made it to this page yet.
Why is it I wonder that Daniel Defense recommends the "H" buffer in ALL of their rifles?
Why is it I wonder that Daniel Defense recommends the "H" buffer in ALL of their rifles?
So they don't take "why won't this gun run shit ammo?" phone calls.
SanDiegoLMT
04-05-14, 19:01
14.5 Middy runs with an H
14.5 middy with H buffer. Daniel Defense barrel.
Cagemonkey
04-05-14, 22:06
H2's in my two 16" middy's. 1 Noveske with a Rainier Comp and 1 Daniel Defense with a Battle Comp.
It kind of helps when you mention the barrel manufacturer since all barrels are not the same.
14.5 Middy runs with an H
buckkiller35
04-06-14, 01:40
I run H buffers in my 16" BCM Middies and they work fine.
H buffer in BCM 14.5" mid ran fine with everything; switched to A5H2 and had zero failures in 800rds. Going to a5h3 and will test that out and report back on Monday or Tuesday...have PMC 223, federal 223, independence 556 as well as Hornady 75gr TAP in 223 and 556 to try out.
Nightvisionary
04-06-14, 16:30
Spikes Tactical ST-T2.
Successfully run H, H2, and H3 buffers with my 16" BCM, and SIONICS uppers. Fodder used were xm193, xm855, other m193 spec, Fed ar223, PMC bronze 55gr, and Herters 55gr - all good to go.
Spikes Tactical ST-T2.
You're BANNED! ;)
Ran a Spike's Tactical ST-2 for 200 rounds or so, no issues.
Now running an H buffer because it came with new stock assembly and I'll see how it goes.
BCM 14.5 pinned Mid length
Mine ran the H3 too when it was new.... but I've had gas tube problems. My first tube was worn down at the carrier key and was puking gas forward. I couldn't see the build up under the rail. But when I pulled the tube it had worn down to about 0.163" on a spec of 0.180". Still haven't fully figured that one out.
So does it once again run wolf with h3?
Currently building an upper with a rainier 14.5 chf middie(link to barrel at bottom) wondering what a good starting buffer/ spring setup would be. Upper will be ran with an aac 762sdn6 about 50% of the time.
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3139
BufordTJustice
04-20-14, 13:04
Currently building an upper with a rainier 14.5 chf middie(link to barrel at bottom) wondering what a good starting buffer/ spring setup would be. Upper will be ran with an aac 762sdn6 about 50% of the time.
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3139
H2 or H3 with a springco WHITE. H2 will work unsuppressed but H3 will def be best suppressed.
BrigandTwoFour
04-20-14, 13:55
Standard A5 kits on both a BCM LW 16" and a Centurion LW CHF 16", flawless function
H2 or H3 with a springco WHITE. H2 will work unsuppressed but H3 will def be best suppressed.
What would I gain or lose by going with a stronger spring such as a blue or red?
H3 buffer in Bravo Company upper with standard 14.5 in BBL. Use only XM193 ammo.
BufordTJustice
04-20-14, 16:59
What would I gain or lose by going with a stronger spring such as a blue or red?
Potentially more muzzle dip on counter-recoil. I've owned ALL Springco springs except for the Orange (which is for .308 carbines). The Blue and Red caused muzzle dip for me.
Potentially more muzzle dip on counter-recoil. I've owned ALL Springco springs except for the Orange (which is for .308 carbines). The Blue and Red caused muzzle dip for me.
Thanks for the help. I ordered an h2 and a white springco from weapon outfitters. It was probably time for a new buffer spring anyway. Just fyi they have black gen 3 windowless pmags in stock for 14.95 and troy battle mags for $11.
H buffer on my 14.5" BCM middie.
702Warfighter
04-20-14, 21:37
I run whatever spring came in my 16 " BCM BFH middy and a spikes st-t2 and have not had any issues so far.
I ran the same configuration in my Delton carbine and did not have any issues with the 5k rounds I put through it.
snakedoctor
04-21-14, 00:21
Vltor A5 H4 with JP buffer spring.
Standard carbine buffer and an H buffer both work very well with my BCM 14.5 middy
Obscenejesster
04-21-14, 08:31
There was a study done on different brands of carbine springs but I can't find it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? They showed a chart with with recoil curves or perceived recoil. I honestly forget what the chart showed.
Any how, from what I remember, the standard BCM spring performed the best. I don't know if they tested Sprinco Springs but some of the standard springs from other companies didn't perform so well.
SomeOtherGuy
04-21-14, 11:06
There was a study done on different brands of carbine springs but I can't find it. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? They showed a chart with with recoil curves or perceived recoil. I honestly forget what the chart showed.
Any how, from what I remember, the standard BCM spring performed the best. I don't know if they tested Sprinco Springs but some of the standard springs from other companies didn't perform so well.
I vaguely remember Rsilvers posting a lot of information relating to spring rates and duty cycles. I don't remember anything trying to match that up with perceived recoil though. You might search his name on the technical forum.
Obscenejesster
04-21-14, 12:29
I vaguely remember Rsilvers posting a lot of information relating to spring rates and duty cycles. I don't remember anything trying to match that up with perceived recoil though. You might search his name on the technical forum.
Maybe that was it.
*EDIT* - I just looked at his post. That wasn't it.
16" standard BCM middy, I've used a carbine buffer and an H buffer and had no problems. The H felt a little softer so that's what stayed in it.
BufordTJustice
04-21-14, 18:06
Maybe that was it.
*EDIT* - I just looked at his post. That wasn't it.
Andrew at vuurwapen blog.
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Potentially more muzzle dip on counter-recoil. I've owned ALL Springco springs except for the Orange (which is for .308 carbines). The Blue and Red caused muzzle dip for me.
What about buffers? Do they contribute as much?
You really can't compare different barrels and gas sytem unless you know the port size.
I run whatever spring came in my 16 " BCM BFH middy and a spikes st-t2 and have not had any issues so far.
I ran the same configuration in my Delton carbine and did not have any issues with the 5k rounds I put through it.
I have two BCM 16" Midlengths.
One has the A5, Sprinco green spring, and the standard A5 buffer. It runs greats, I love the way it feels. I have only tried AE .223 and Fichocci .223, both ran fine. I usually run true 5.56 most of the time though.
On my other one, I recently put in a Sprinco Blue spring with an H buffer. I am wondering how it is going to work.
Is there any law of unintended consequences with heavy buffers and aggressive springs?
Damage to barrel extension or bcg or gas tube?
Counter recoil killing optics like SCARs?
Other...?
ColtSeavers
04-22-14, 09:30
Is there any law of unintended consequences with heavy buffers and aggressive springs?
Damage to barrel extension or bcg or gas tube?
Counter recoil killing optics like SCARs?
Other...?
Short stroking, especially with less powerful ammo.
Not sure why someone would wander into Very heavy buffer and spring realm on a middy. Even if you have a suppressor.
Not sure why someone would wander into Very heavy buffer and spring realm on a middy. Even if you have a suppressor.
I consider an H2 and blue sprinco heavy. Some people run them. Like on a 0.080 port Noveske I bet it would run especially with a can.
I consider an H2 and blue sprinco heavy. Some people run them. Like on a 0.080 port Noveske I bet it would run especially with a can.
Ok. H2 is standard in my eyes. H1 on a borderline under-gassed weapon. I don't mess with CS springs at all.
I consider an H2 and blue sprinco heavy. Some people run them. Like on a 0.080 port Noveske I bet it would run especially with a can.
Will a heavy buffer alone enhance feeding in adverse conditions like the spring will or just timing?
Of course a heavy buffer will help feed within the law of diminishing returns. A heavier buffer in forward motion is going to strip off and chamber a round more reliably than a buffer that's too light.
Of course a heavy buffer will help feed within the law of diminishing returns. A heavier buffer in forward motion is going to strip off and chamber a round more reliably than a buffer that's too light.
Physics-wise, I agree 100%. I was just wondering if text-book carried over to the real world, considering that the heavier buffer is going to return to battery slower.
Physics-wise, I agree 100%. I was just wondering if text-book carried over to the real world, considering that the heavier buffer is going to return to battery slower.
When it returns (or tries) too quickly, we get bolt overs.
When it returns (or tries) too quickly, we get bolt overs.
I understand, but the heavier buffer slows down the milspec spring. I wonder how much it can slow it down before it cancels out the extra mass advantage. Mass/velocity, and if a stiffer spring is warranted for H2/H3 to avoid this loss.
I've not found any need for any aftermarket spring when any gun is gassed correctly. I'd go gas regulation/adjustability before changing springs.
My belief is that the Rifle or A5 system with USGI spring is where a gun SHOULD be running. (H2 carbine as the only concession) If it doesn't run good there, fix it or dump it.
I understand, but the heavier buffer slows down the milspec spring. I wonder how much it can slow it down before it cancels out the extra mass advantage. Mass/velocity, and if a stiffer spring is warranted for H2/H3 to avoid this loss.
I believe the bcg doesn't need to accelerate to strip a round. You should be able to ride the bolt foreword and strip a round fine. It might not go completely into battery (hence the foreword assist), but stripping the round should never be an issue.
BufordTJustice
04-23-14, 10:04
I understand, but the heavier buffer slows down the milspec spring. I wonder how much it can slow it down before it cancels out the extra mass advantage. Mass/velocity, and if a stiffer spring is warranted for H2/H3 to avoid this loss.
I had Clint ("Slash") at HeavyBuffers.net make me a custom 8.3oz SS bodied carbine buffer with 3 tungsten weights inside. I ran it 100% with a springco WHITE and a stock Colt Carbine spring on my BCM 14.5" middy with not a single issue. For the buffer to cause return-to-battery issues, it would almost have to be a solid chunk of stainless and weight north of 10oz I would imagine....which is just ridiculous.
Also, the A5 buffers are FAR heavier than carbine buffers and the Rifle/A5 spring provides less pre-load pressure, yet they have no issues running 6.8oz A5H4 buffers. Food for thought.
EDIT: I changed the weights and it now weighs just over 7oz. My brother uses this in his BCM Middy with a Springco WHITE without issue. Has has over 400 rounds on this exact setup.
I had Clint ("Slash") at HeavyBuffers.net make me a custom 8.3oz SS bodied carbine buffer with 3 tungsten weights inside. I ran it 100% with a springco WHITE and a stock Colt Carbine spring on my BCM 14.5" middy with not a single issue. For the buffer to cause return-to-battery issues, it would almost have to be a solid chunk of stainless and weight north of 10oz I would imagine....which is just ridiculous.
Also, the A5 buffers are FAR heavier than carbine buffers and the Rifle/A5 spring provides less pre-load pressure, yet they have no issues running 6.8oz A5H4 buffers. Food for thought.
EDIT: I changed the weights and it now weighs just over 7oz. My brother uses this in his BCM Middy with a Springco WHITE without issue. Has has over 400 rounds on this exact setup.
Wow! So what's this I hear about BCM's middy being ammo sensitive if it's taking 200% heavier buffers than "normally" run in middys?
BufordTJustice
04-23-14, 10:34
Wow! So what's this I hear about BCM's middy being ammo sensitive if it's taking 200% heavier buffers than "normally" run in middys?
Friction.
See my BCG polishing thread (that turned into a complete shitstorm). I polished his BCG as instructed and VOILA.....it runs like butter even with PMC bronze, tula, and wolf.
Friction.
See my BCG polishing thread (that turned into a complete shitstorm). I polished his BCG as instructed and VOILA.....it runs like butter even with PMC bronze, tula, and wolf.
My BCG's are all very slick in the upper when I cycle it. They lapped themselves in. I saw your thread and it looks like you were polishing a BCG that was finished with Rhinoliner or something (That LMT). Anyway, yes, I have run very slick setups (RCA bcg is EXTREMELY slick/hard), and it didn't do anything special regarding ejection pattern. Yes, I know ejection pattern means squat, but when it moves forward/back, you know something has changed. The RCA BCG did not move the pattern over a phosphate carrier.
Wow! So what's this I hear about BCM's middy being ammo sensitive if it's taking 200% heavier buffers than "normally" run in middys?
The BCM middy isn't really ammo sensitive. I'm running two with no problems with .223 and 5.56. Now if you run a lot of WOLF under powered stuff... a muzzle device with expansion chamber or lighter buffer are helpful.
BufordTJustice
04-23-14, 10:47
My BCG's are all very slick in the upper when I cycle it. They lapped themselves in. I saw your thread and it looks like you were polishing a BCG that was finished with Rhinoliner or something (That LMT). Anyway, yes, I have run very slick setups (RCA bcg is EXTREMELY slick/hard), and it didn't do anything special regarding ejection pattern. Yes, I know ejection pattern means squat, but when it moves forward/back, you know something has changed. The RCA BCG did not move the pattern over a phosphate carrier.
Yes, LMT chose a rock-and-gravel finish for their gen4 BCGs. The RCA is very slick with their nitride finish.
I have found that friction matters just as much on the return-to-battery stroke as it does on recoil....if not more so. My brother's ejection pattern didn't change either prior to polishing...but it went from being borderline using Brownells Mags w/ a MP follower to working 100% with margin for being dirty and dry on older MIL magazines that had green followers and gawdnknowshowold springs in them.
Results is results.
Yes, LMT chose a rock-and-gravel finish for their gen4 BCGs. The RCA is very slick with their nitride finish.
I have found that friction matters just as much on the return-to-battery stroke as it does on recoil....if not more so. My brother's ejection pattern didn't change either prior to polishing...but it went from being borderline using Brownells Mags w/ a MP follower to working 100% with margin for being dirty and dry on older MIL magazines that had green followers and gawdnknowshowold springs in them.
Results is results.
Thanks, very interesting!
The BCM middy isn't really ammo sensitive. I'm running two with no problems with .223 and 5.56. Now if you run a lot of WOLF under powered stuff... a muzzle device with expansion chamber or lighter buffer are helpful.
I've heard a lot from Pat Rogers about it not running PMC .223, etc. in his classes. I'm referring to the 14.5" version with 0.078" gas port (alleged).
Also, I am sure it matters button vs. hammer forged, as the hammer forged barrels will have more back-pressure than the button-rifled, likely. Bore characteristic matters just as much as port characteristic. So I guess each is its own beast almost. I just know that BCM picks smaller (on average) ports, and warns against using anything but 5.56 in their 14.5" middy.
BufordTJustice
04-23-14, 11:11
I've heard a lot from Pat Rogers about it not running PMC .223, etc. in his classes. I'm referring to the 14.5" version with 0.078" gas port (alleged).
Also, I am sure it matters button vs. hammer forged, as the hammer forged barrels will have more back-pressure than the button-rifled, likely. Bore characteristic matters just as much as port characteristic. So I guess each is its own beast almost. I just know that BCM picks smaller (on average) ports, and warns against using anything but 5.56 in their 14.5" middy.
They do issue this warning. I think this is more to cater to the TOS crowd who'll run it bone-f*cking-dry with 400rds of tula and then bitch to the high heavens when they get a malf....and post pix. KAC fought the same battle before opening the GP's on their SR15's.
And that is an interesting observation regarding bore characteristics. It makes sense to me. Better gas seal means more pressure for the system to function.
And, yes, the bottom line is that each gun is kinda its own beast. I certainly do not recommend running a 7-point-something ounce buffer in a BCM 14.5" middy...but I had it laying around and my bro said "WTH, let's try it" and it worked. I rec like Mark the H2 for most BCM carbines.
They do issue this warning. I think this is more to cater to the TOS crowd who'll run it bone-f*cking-dry with 400rds of tula and then bitch to the high heavens when they get a malf....and post pix. KAC fought the same battle before opening the GP's on their SR15's.
And that is an interesting observation regarding bore characteristics. It makes sense to me. Better gas seal means more pressure for the system to function.
And, yes, the bottom line is that each gun is kinda its own beast. I certainly do not recommend running a 7-point-something ounce buffer in a BCM 14.5" middy...but I had it laying around and my bro said "WTH, let's try it" and it worked. I rec like Mark the H2 for most BCM carbines.
Indeed. This is the issue with comparing middys and whatnot with regard to buffers.
I could take a Daniel Defense with 0.076" port and compare it to a Centurion Arms with a 0.076" port, and the tapered bore of the Centurion Arms would give me different results. It's a system. It's impossible to cross-compare systems, I am learning, because when I say "Hey, Buford, what buffer runs in your BCM and how big is the port?" and you tell me, and then I try to do the same thing with another manufacturer's barrel, it may or may not work. So really, it's almost mental masturbation to try this.
One needs to stick with the same barrel manufacturers and port dimensions to properly compare these things. Then you even have port variances, such as Daniel Defense chamfering their gas-port. This will affect flow velocity, of course.
Really, this thread seems more about "general concept" than "recipe", and the more I look for "recipe", the more I am reminded of the story of the young man who asked the Guru who was wading in the pool "Is it cold or warm?" and received a bucket of water over the head in answer.
Ok. H2 is standard in my eyes. H1 on a borderline under-gassed weapon. I don't mess with CS springs at all.
Speaking of that, I know your BCM Middy 14.5 worked great with H3 and Wolf. Then it began choking at around 1K rounds and you had to buffer down to an H/Carbine. I also recall something about gas-tube wear. Is your rifle back to functioning with H3 and Wolf, or was that a 1-time deal early in its life never to happen again? I ask, because I simply cannot fathom a system changing that much and not being "broken" somewhere.
Speaking of that, I know your BCM Middy 14.5 worked great with H3 and Wolf. Then it began choking at around 1K rounds and you had to buffer down to an H/Carbine. I also recall something about gas-tube wear. Is your rifle back to functioning with H3 and Wolf, or was that a 1-time deal early in its life never to happen again? I ask, because I simply cannot fathom a system changing that much and not being "broken" somewhere.
That gas tube was jacked up! There was so much gas leaking at the key and blowing all over the tube, but I couldn't see it under the DD Lite rail. I replaced it and the gun went back to normal funciton. Never did go back and retest any bad ammo... I think I just bought one box... and normally wouldn't shoot that stuff since I hand load everything.
I still don't know what caused that tube to wear so thin... ??
That gas tube was jacked up! There was so much gas leaking at the key and blowing all over the tube, but I couldn't see it under the DD Lite rail. I replaced it and the gun went back to normal funciton. Never did go back and retest any bad ammo... I think I just bought one box... and normally wouldn't shoot that stuff since I hand load everything.
I still don't know what caused that tube to wear so thin... ??
Very odd. I detect no abnormal wear on my ddm4 middy tube. It's a 16.1 gun though if it matters.
Toyoland66
04-24-14, 22:57
16" BFH lw
Running H2 and standard spring
Runs well with various ammo, m193, m855, Tula
Very odd. I detect no abnormal wear on my ddm4 middy tube. It's a 16.1 gun though if it matters.
I wouldn't expect so. I guess it was just a fluke.
Sprinco Blue Spring and H Buffer in BCM 16" BFH Mid-Length Gas. Runs very well. Shoots über soft.
I wouldn't expect so. I guess it was just a fluke.
I just don't believe in flukes involving mechanical things. People, yes, but mechanical things, I think always have a cause. Soft tube? Misaligned? Rough gas-key? I feel like something technical is at fault. Likely with the gas-tube and I wouldn't lose sleep, but machines don't randomly do things, IMO. Always a cause. Did you see if the gas-tube was more easily scored than others? Look inside the gas-key? I dunno, just ideas.
I just don't believe in flukes involving mechanical things. People, yes, but mechanical things, I think always have a cause. Soft tube?
Soft tube was my thought.... that's what I meant by "fluke"
(not an alignment issue.. I know how to check that, and am too meticulous at poking around in an upper before I ever light a live round up)
I run a carbine buffer. I was told that the spikes barrel I'm using was on the conservative gas port size. Feels like everything is working alright. Ran a h buffer for a while and the whole action felt sluggish.
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I run a Springco Blue, H2 buffer, "semi-auto" profile BCG on my 16" middie. Shoots pretty soft and so far cycles perfectly with pretty robust ejection at about 2:30-3 O'clock. Haven't shot the really weak ammo yet but have shot about 1K rounds each of Federal Premium 55gr "tactical" duty ammo and 55gr American Eagle practice stuff.
My Black Hole Weaponry LTM barrel felt a little overgassed when I first shot it with a standard spring and carbine buffer. Shot it back to back with my issued Bushy (16" carbine gas) and didn't see the expected difference in perceived recoil or feel. That changed with the heavier buffer and sprinco blue.
As an aside, I asked BHW what the spec'd gas port size was on the barrel and they replied .085-.088. That seems a little larger than some of the other sizes I've read about here for a 16" middie.
I've been considering trying the VLTOR A5 to see if that changes or improves the feel over my current set-up.
Perfect example of a company that has no idea how to port the barrel. That port is way too large and is approaching rifle port territory.
I run a Springco Blue, H2 buffer, "semi-auto" profile BCG on my 16" middie. Shoots pretty soft and so far cycles perfectly with pretty robust ejection at about 2:30-3 O'clock. Haven't shot the really weak ammo yet but have shot about 1K rounds each of Federal Premium 55gr "tactical" duty ammo and 55gr American Eagle practice stuff.
My Black Hole Weaponry LTM barrel felt a little overgassed when I first shot it with a standard spring and carbine buffer. Shot it back to back with my issued Bushy (16" carbine gas) and didn't see the expected difference in perceived recoil or feel. That changed with the heavier buffer and sprinco blue.
As an aside, I asked BHW what the spec'd gas port size was on the barrel and they replied .085-.088. That seems a little larger than some of the other sizes I've read about here for a 16" middie.
I've been considering trying the VLTOR A5 to see if that changes or improves the feel over my current set-up.
BufordTJustice
04-28-14, 08:03
I run a Springco Blue, H2 buffer, "semi-auto" profile BCG on my 16" middie. Shoots pretty soft and so far cycles perfectly with pretty robust ejection at about 2:30-3 O'clock. Haven't shot the really weak ammo yet but have shot about 1K rounds each of Federal Premium 55gr "tactical" duty ammo and 55gr American Eagle practice stuff.
My Black Hole Weaponry LTM barrel felt a little overgassed when I first shot it with a standard spring and carbine buffer. Shot it back to back with my issued Bushy (16" carbine gas) and didn't see the expected difference in perceived recoil or feel. That changed with the heavier buffer and sprinco blue.
As an aside, I asked BHW what the spec'd gas port size was on the barrel and they replied .085-.088. That seems a little larger than some of the other sizes I've read about here for a 16" middie.
I've been considering trying the VLTOR A5 to see if that changes or improves the feel over my current set-up.
I just read your post. As Gunz said, that GP is WAY too big. Rifle ports start in the .091-.093 range and go up from there.
So, YES, a Vltor A5 system with one of the heavier A5H3 or A5H4 buffers would have a huge impact on how the gun runs. Also, I would consider a Syrac adjustable gas block and/or an LMT Enhanced Carrier. That port is ridiculous.
I just read your post. As Gunz said, that GP is WAY too big.
Yeah... Wow. I have a 14.5 Middy Sabre that Iraqgunz gave me. It has an .080" port and runs mild ammo good. An .085 on a 16" middy is stupid. Adjustable gas block is the only hope of saving that barrel.
Yeah... Wow. I have a 14.5 Middy Sabre that Iraqgunz gave me. It has an .080" port and runs mild ammo good. An .085 on a 16" middy is stupid. Adjustable gas block is the only hope of saving that barrel.
What buffer are you using in that Sabre?
Standard A5 buffer system. (the H2)
Standard A5 buffer system. (the H2)
What would you recommend I run with a 0.076 port in a 14.5 Middy and carbine re for shooting stuff like wolf tula and pmc bronze? Don't plan on a5.
H buffer. That's what I run.
All of middies are 16" and all run Wolff SP springs and H Buffers. I have two BCMS, two DDs, and two PSAs - all are 100% reliable with all ammo that I feed them.
H buffer. That's what I run.
Is your port 0.076? Work even with junky ammo like wolf etc.
Is your port 0.076? Work even with junky ammo like wolf etc.
I haven't tried Wolf recently, but I think it would run it. Nothing else is acting weak.
I just read your post. As Gunz said, that GP is WAY too big. Rifle ports start in the .091-.093 range and go up from there.
So, YES, a Vltor A5 system with one of the heavier A5H3 or A5H4 buffers would have a huge impact on how the gun runs. Also, I would consider a Syrac adjustable gas block and/or an LMT Enhanced Carrier. That port is ridiculous.
There is part of me that wonders about the accuracy of the information I was given and if the port is really that large. BHW was in the middle of their move at the time and it was hard to get anyone to answer the phone or email. I believe the employee I got the info from was some sort of secretary, not one of the more technical employees.
I haven't had any operating problems, regardless of what spring/buffer combo I was using, so is there any reason I should be concerned now that the H2/Blue setup I'm using now seems to have noticeably reduced the felt recoil?
A couple of days ago, I shot my rifle with that barrel (using the H2 Springco blue setup) back to back with a co-workers BCM 16" middy and his seemed to have more/faster felt recoil than mine did. I ass-ume he was using the standard spring and carbine buffer. **shrug**
I think I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on the A5 setup jsut to give it a try. Is anyone aware of a vendor that allows you to option in one of the heavier A5 buffers when you buy the kit?
I'm running a standard carbine buffer in my 14.5" BCM middy, works just fine and ejects at about 3:30
TacticalMark
04-29-14, 22:11
There is part of me that wonders about the accuracy of the information I was given and if the port is really that large. BHW was in the middle of their move at the time and it was hard to get anyone to answer the phone or email. I believe the employee I got the info from was some sort of secretary, not one of the more technical employees.
Your info is pretty close. I have a 2013 production SS 16" middy BHW barrel, 5.56 chamber .082 gas port. Measured with pin gauges. Sprinco white/ H2, they run their ports on the large side.
Thanks for the reply. I sent BHW an email asking them to confirm the spec they told me last year. The reply stated they would not confirm/provide that info.
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Rainier 14.5
H2 buffer
Springco white
500+ trouble free rounds in one range day with and without a can. Xm193, m855 and some stand 1 armory 55 grain.
ST-T2 Buffer with stainless spring.
In the interested keeping the record correct regarding people's/company's reputations: I got a call from Carl Caudle of Black Hole Weaponry regarding my gas port question. Felt I should publicize that after my previous post about them declining to answer my question.
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I just picked up a BCM 14.5" With BCM comp mod1 pinned mid length. Was deciding on what buffer to build the lower with, leaning toward an A5 system but have a Spikes ST-T2 and a standard carbine buffer tube laying around. The sprinco blue spring is just $20 bucks and the rep from Sprinco actually recommended running the spikes with the blue spring on 14.5 mid length more so than using an H2.
I guess my question is the A5 worth the extra coin and going to smooth anything out that much more? I see a lot of mixed opinion in this thread.
MSparks909
07-08-14, 21:34
I just picked up a BCM 14.5" With BCM comp mod1 pinned mid length. Was deciding on what buffer to build the lower with, leaning toward an A5 system but have a Spikes ST-T2 and a standard carbine buffer tube laying around. The sprinco blue spring is just $20 bucks and the rep from Sprinco actually recommended running the spikes with the blue spring on 14.5 mid length more so than using an H2.
I guess my question is the A5 worth the extra coin and going to smooth anything out that much more? I see a lot of mixed opinion in this thread.
The A5 will be smoother than the ST-T2. I would opt for a regular H or H2 over the ST-T2 as well.
I run a Colt "H" buffer in my 14.5" BCM ELW middy, it ejects 3:30-4:00.
PWS MK114 (14.5")
I am currently running the st-t2 buffer, wondering if anyone has any experience with different set ups for the PWS, thinking about getting a sprinco buffer spring and not sure which to get and if I should switch buffers. Rifle runs great as far as ammo goes, but I feel like it makes more of a "thud" noise like its slamming against the back of the receiver extension.
MSparks909
07-08-14, 23:27
PWS MK114 (14.5")
I am currently running the st-t2 buffer, wondering if anyone has any experience with different set ups for the PWS, thinking about getting a sprinco buffer spring and not sure which to get and if I should switch buffers. Rifle runs great as far as ammo goes, but I feel like it makes more of a "thud" noise like its slamming against the back of the receiver extension.
Have you messed with your gas system positions at all to see if it softens recoil impulse? If it will run on the 3rd or 4th setting I would just do that. Less gas should smooth out the recoil impulse some. If the rifle doesn't lock back, then back off to the next gas position and try again.
If you still want to change, a Sprinco White and a H2/H3 would be a good place to start. Or a Sprinco Blue/H2.
PWS MK114 (14.5")
Rifle runs great as far as ammo goes, but I feel like it makes more of a "thud" noise like its slamming against the back of the receiver extension.
There should be a dead blow buffer at the end of your RE that softens the impact. That's likely why it sounds different.
I swapped buffers in my MK216 to good effect.
Have you messed with your gas system positions at all to see if it softens recoil impulse? If it will run on the 3rd or 4th setting I would just do that. Less gas should smooth out the recoil impulse some. If the rifle doesn't lock back, then back off to the next gas position and try again.
If you still want to change, a Sprinco White and a H2/H3 would be a good place to start. Or a Sprinco Blue/H2.
I was thinking about messing with the gas adjustment block but PWS says it's for different loads and for suppressed so I kinda forgot about it. The recoil is fine and the gun is amazing, I just worry about the thud.
I was thinking of going with the PWS h2 buffer and sprinco extra strength spring, but it sounds like tht would be a bad idea.
So would the h2 and blue rescue recoil even more than now? I just can't imagine how awesome that would be the thing is already a dream to shoot minus the thud
The A5 will be smoother than the ST-T2. I would opt for a regular H or H2 over the ST-T2 as well.
I was thinking the same thing but the guy from Sprinco said to to use the ST-T2 because it is right in the middle of the H and H2 buffer. I ordered the blue spring last night and I have all three buffers laying around so I will experiment. I also have a A5 in my 16" mid and my PRI MK12Mod0 I can swap in to try just was not wanting to spend that much more money on another A5.
I just picked up a BCM 14.5" With BCM comp mod1 pinned mid length. Was deciding on what buffer to build the lower with,
H buffer.
Well considering the money I already spent with the Noveske lower and the Giessele trigger I went ahead and pulled the trigger for another A5 system.
Well considering the money I already spent with the Noveske lower and the Giessele trigger I went ahead and pulled the trigger for another A5 system.
H buffer. If you want to run the A5... tune down from the standard to an H1.
I approach LAV levels of arrogance on what I know about the Middy, port sized, and appropriate buffers. ;)
TexanInCali
07-09-14, 13:14
I've got a BCM SS410 16" mid length. I put a VLTOR IMOD buttstock kit with their receiver extension and carbine buffer (not the A5).
I've run everything from 55gr FMJ to 75gr BTHP with no failures.
Would I see any benefits by moving to a heavier buffer? The recoil is fine to me. Frankly, I've always thought 5.56 recoil is mild.
Noveske Midlength 16" with A5H2, no problems and smooth shooting.
Would I see any benefits by moving to a heavier buffer? The recoil is fine to me. Frankly, I've always thought 5.56 recoil is mild.
It depends on the kind of shooting you do. If you like to run tactical drills it may improve your shot to shot times. If you're mostly a long distance shooter or hunter then you probably won't see a big benefit.
For the cost of an H buffer it's an easy experiment to try to see if you perceive any difference. I would expect the rifle recoil impulse to "feel better" with an H buffer. Your call though.
H buffer. If you want to run the A5... tune down from the standard to an H1.
I approach LAV levels of arrogance on what I know about the Middy, port sized, and appropriate buffers. ;)
CRAP. I thought the agreed logic was to go up to an A5H3 (6.08) ounce buffer in the A5 system with BCM 14.5" middies and brakes...I understand if you shoot weaksauce steel case or whatever, but if ALL I shoot is XM193 and 75gr TAP, wouldn't the A5H3 be smoother with less recoil than the A5H1? (note: I've had 800rds through it in this configuration without ANY failures, but it still doesn't feel as smooth as LAV's 16" with a comp mod 0, though I have no idea what buffer was in it).
BufordTJustice uses the A5H3 AND an LMT E-Carrier in his 14.5 mid I think.
CRAP. I thought the agreed logic was to go up to an A5H3 (6.08) ounce buffer in the A5 system with BCM 14.5" middies and brakes...I understand if you shoot weaksauce steel case or whatever, but if ALL I shoot is XM193 and 75gr TAP, wouldn't the A5H3 be smoother with less recoil than the A5H1? (note: I've had 800rds through it in this configuration without ANY failures, but it still doesn't feel as smooth as LAV's 16" with a comp mod 0, though I have no idea what buffer was in it).
BufordTJustice uses the A5H3 AND an LMT E-Carrier in his 14.5 mid I think.
That E carrier apparently allows the use of a heavier buffer all else equal. So it makes sense that his set up is functional.
If you're running all XM193 pressure ammo with a standard carrier, I'd run the H2 (standard A5 buffer)
I run mostly 223 loads, so a carbine H buffer is optimal for me.
Interesting. I thought the E-Carrier would bleed off more gas and thus not be able to push the heavier buffers back--however, since he was running it, I planned on trying it out (as soon as the BCM BFH ELW FLUTED 14.5" uppers get released).
TexanInCali
07-09-14, 15:51
@LewP
Thanks for the guidance. I'll try out an H buffer to feel the difference.
Interesting. I thought the E-Carrier would bleed off more gas and thus not be able to push the heavier buffers back--however, since he was running it, I planned on trying it out (as soon as the BCM BFH ELW FLUTED 14.5" uppers get released).
I tried the E carrier in my 14.5 mid.... and it seemed to buck a little more. It's hard to quick change a BCG to get a good feel... but as fast as I could I swapped them out.... and it felt like a little more brisk cycle.
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