Newb Questions for Precision Optics

[danieljmaunder]

Good Evening All,

I am in process of building a Precision 308 Rifle for shooting out to 1,000 Yard. I have the actual rifle specced out, but my main questions are about the optics. As stated earlier, I will be shooting out to 1.000 Yards.

I have little to no experience shooting at longer ranges so I may need some help with Mils, VS. MOA, although all my previous scopes have been MOA. The First thing I hear everyone ask, is what is your budget. My budget is $6,000 as I want to have a very nice optic So I suppose what is comes down to are

Brands,

Magnification range for maximum 1,000 Yard Shots,

The scope must have an illuminated reticle, ( I may use this for low /no light shooting )

Mils or MOA, ( I can learn to use Mils )

As stated earlier I am new to long range precision shooting so Please bear with me.

Thanks

Daniel J Maunder

[jmnielsen]

While I'm no expert, and haven't used some of the "tier one" optics, I will give you my opinion.

I'm a huge fan of Vortex Optics, especially the fact that if you happen to have any sort of issue it can be warrantied without question. However, if I could get one scope my choice would be the SWFA SS HD 5-20x50. It's illuminated and $1500. SWFA puts out some VERY high quality optics, and I can't imagine you would need more than 20x for 1000 yards. As far as mils or MOA, I would say that it's personal preference. I do think though, that you will have more options going mil/mil.

[Kenneth]

6 grand for just an optic. That's pure craziness.

I agree with the above about Vortex. I do not own one but never read or heard anything bad about them. Always positive experiences with them as well.

[markm]

For what it's worth, and illuminated reticle is almost useless. There's about a 20 minute window as the sun drops where it's slightly beneficial. Before that, you don't need it. And after that, it's to dark to see the target, and the reticle being lit up only makes it worse.

If you have that kind of money to spend, I'd get a Nightforce and add a NOD to the front of the stock. For 2k you can get a great optic and have 4k left over for a very nice NOD.

Other than that, you can go Schmidt and Bender.... But for .308 a 12 or 15 power variable FFP Nightforce is more than adequate. I never felt under glassed with a fixed 10 at 1000 yards. And any time I get on someone's gun with a 15 or 22 power, I dial it back to 10 or 12 for better FOV and less mirage anyway.

[danieljmaunder]

Thank You,

I think at this point a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 with a Front Focal Plane is going to be the best option.

[markm]

Thank You,

I think at this point a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 with a Front Focal Plane is going to be the best option.

I think that's what's on my .308 now. It's a loaner from Pappabear.

[JWR075]

For that kind of cash there are a ton of quality options.

Nightforce (I have an NXS 12-42 on one of my varmint rifles and love it for long range and I also have 2.5-10x42 on my hunting rifle and it is also a awesome scope)
S&B
Premier (I do not have one of their scopes, but I do have a conversion done by them and it is a very nice scope)
Hensoldt
March (Have one of their BR scopes (straight 50) and love it, but not cheap and one must really know how to read mirage and wind)
Leupold (I run many Leupolds on different rifles and never had any major problems but slowly starting to replace them with either Nightforce or Vortex)
Vortex (starting to switch over to Vortex from Leupold on my varmint rifles, great customer service and I personally have never had an issue with the ones I have)
U.S. Optics

The list is long once you start looking at the models and reticle options that each company offers. As for reticle that is something that is best found out by looking thru the scope and everyone has their own personal opinion. I like a mil reticle because I find some of the other options start to become to much when trying to focus on the target, the wind and also having to deal with reading the mirage, but that is just my opinion. I would suggest trying to find a local dealer who has or can get a NF for you to look at and start from there.

[markm]

That's a good point too. Knowing what reticle you like is huge. I like a plain old Mil Dot reticle. I've nearly broken shots on the wrong half mil mark because plain old cross hair style mil and half mil reticles aren't optimal in my brain.

Another reason I dial down on FFP Scopes it to get the whole reticle a little smaller in the sight picture relative to the target. If I dial up too much I get lost in a busy reticle.

[JWR075]

Markm brought up something else important and that is one needs to think about if they want FFP or SFP, First Focal Plane or Second Focal Plane and one must decide which works best for them.

[markm]

I do prefer First Focal Plain for the above reason.... I like to dial down and shrink the reticle. Also... I'd forget to dial up to mil targets if I had a 2nd Focal plain.

Our shooting spot is low to the ground and often very difficult to laser targets through the bushes. 3 weeks back I had to old school mil our 400 yard target to confirm that it wasn't actually at 300 or 500.

FFP works good for guys like me who make mental errors. :mad:

[danieljmaunder]

FFP works good for guys like me who make mental errors. :mad:

I am also mathematically challenged, :) so it would make things slightly easier, whats your opinion on MOA vs MIL

[markm]

MIL all the way for more commonality. Both work. But we've switched to all mil.

The one thing that's more important than all this mil, reticle, and glass stuff... and equipment though...

THE MOST important thing you can have is a good spotter. You can get it done with crappy gear and a good spotter, but the reverse I've not found to be true.

[Koshinn]

Get a Leupold Mk6 3-18 in H59 reticle.

[danieljmaunder]

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll post pics when its all set up, probably about a year from now. In the mean time, how would you recommend learning to shoot at long ranges?

[markm]

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll post pics when its all set up, probably about a year from now. In the mean time, how would you recommend learning to shoot at long ranges?

What do you mean? Learning Bolt gun techniques? Range protocols?

[gunrunner505]

Another thing to consider, and Mark can expand on this I'm sure, is the adjustment lost when you step up in magnification.

If you look at the Viper 4-16 it has 75 minutes of adjustment. The 6-24 has 65 minutes of adjustment.

Is the loss of adjustment worth the increased magnification? How much scope adjustment do you need to drop a 308 on target at 1000 yards? Is 65 minutes more than enough, maybe enough for 1400 yards or more?

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[danieljmaunder]

Thing like wind readings, I am familiar with how to shoot a tactical Bolt Rifle, But nothing more than 300 yards, in which case I have simply used holdovers

[markm]

Wind is just a matter of practice. Once you start scoping out past 500 and stuff... the heat mirage gets more clear... on hot days it's so much that it can make the target/hits hard to spot.

If you can pair up with a shooter and learn together, it's so much better. You can really end up chasing your ass if you're pushing your abilities on your own. Both Pappabear and I have gone out alone when one of us couldn't make it and it's amazing how quick you realize the value of your partner.

[danieljmaunder]

How much elevation am I going to need in the optic itself, the nightforce has 110 moa elevation and 80 moa windage. The US Optics has 80 moa elevation and 70 windage,

[markm]

A thousand yard shot is requiring in the ball park of 40 MOA. To get my glass to have enough come up to comfortably shoot 1000 or more, I used a 20 MOA scope base. I started with a standard base, but it wasn't enough.

[gunrunner505]

A thousand yard shot is requiring in the ball park of 40 MOA. To get my glass to have enough come up to comfortably shoot 1000 or more, I used a 20 MOA scope base. I started with a standard base, but it wasn't enough.

So is the trade off of less adjustment for more magnification worth it?

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[markm]

So is the trade off of less adjustment for more magnification worth it?


I can't answer that. I always dial back scopes to 10-12 power for long range. So I'd rather have adjustment than Magnification. But that's just my preference.

[shaneinhisroom]

What's your price range?

Mil/mil is what I use. What ever you choose get one with same reticle and turret subtensions.

Vortex/SWFA are great scopes. The new 4.5-27x Vortex is putting out later this year is very hyped up and for good reason by Sniper's Hide.

SWFA 5-20 is great, I just sold one a few days ago.

Vortex 5-20 is good as well.

Those will run you between 1300-2700 new/used.

Leupold Mk6 3-18 w/ TMR is good too, I have a Mk6 1-6 with the TMR. The great thing about this 3-18 is its compactness.

You don't need anymore than a 10x for 1000yd shots on steel. A 308 will get there easily with about 10-12 mils of elevation.

If you want to get into top tier look at the Nightforce BEAST that has yet to be released (and is a bit of vaporware right now honestly), S&B 5-25, Premier, Steiner, Kahles, etc.

I have a Kahles k624i coming today with the MSR-K reticle and is reported to be the top scope for the money and range for long range competition/tactical shooting.

I will probably take it out past 1400yd with my 6.5 CM.

[markm]

You don't need anymore than a 10x for 1000yd shots on steel. A 308 will get there easily with about 10-12 mils of elevation.

This has been my experience too.

[danieljmaunder]

This has been my experience too.

So basically a 20 MOA Base, with a scope with 80 MOA adjustment should get me to 1k if I do my part?

[markm]

You should be more than covered. I started out with a standard base with a Super Sniper scope and was ok. When I got a Bushnell Tactical Elite, I ran out of elevation around 1k. I switched to a 20 MOA base, and had the scope more closely to mechanical zero.

[Pappabear]

The cut off is generally at 20X power to 25X. More than that you start cheating into your elevation too much. I looked into the 8-32 NF scopes once. Everyone said, no go for long range, only bench rest shooters.



So is the trade off of less adjustment for more magnification worth it?

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[danieljmaunder]

So with a Badger Ordnance 20 MOA base, and the optics itself, I shouldn't have a problem?

[gunrunner505]

Never mind. I overlooked Marks post....


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[Pappabear]

Buy the $10 shooter app, and you can plug these numbers in for yourself. Our 308's would go out to 1200 but not 1400. At 1200 mine was about 1000 fps and losing stability.

[Doc. Holiday]

+ 1 for the shooter app. I love my Vortex 4-16 PST FFP mil/mil. Great scope and features for the money. It seems in your case that money is no issue. My dream scope is this http://www.laruetactical.com/scope-combo-schmidt-bender-5-25x56-pmii-lt-h59-cm-ccw-mtc-and-lt104-34-qd-scope-mount I know Mark is prob going to puke cuz it has a "busy" reticle, but I LOVE this reticle.

[Zach]

Another vote for S&B 5-25 H59. Very happy with mine.

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/5-25x56-pm-iilpmtc.html

[matemike]

For what it's worth, and illuminated reticle is almost useless. There's about a 20 minute window as the sun drops where it's slightly beneficial. Before that, you don't need it. And after that, it's to dark to see the target, and the reticle being lit up only makes it worse.

If you have that kind of money to spend, I'd get a Nightforce and add a NOD to the front of the stock. For 2k you can get a great optic and have 4k left over for a very nice NOD.

Other than that, you can go Schmidt and Bender.... But for .308 a 12 or 15 power variable FFP Nightforce is more than adequate. I never felt under glassed with a fixed 10 at 1000 yards. And any time I get on someone's gun with a 15 or 22 power, I dial it back to 10 or 12 for better FOV and less mirage anyway.

For AZ and the OP's application, yeah an illuminated reticle is basically money wasted. Just plan your bench time during bright hours.

But for more polar regions, Alaska, New Zealand, Siberia, and Argentina dawn and dusk (twilight) can last for hours during the spring and fall and all day long during winter months. An illuminated reticle could be very useful. Especially if the hunt of a lifetime were depending on it.



What is a NOD?

[Pappabear]

Night vision optical device

[Ring]

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_gen_II_riflescopes

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_riflescopes

[markm]

For AZ and the OP's application, yeah an illuminated reticle is basically money wasted. Just plan your bench time during bright hours.

But for more polar regions, Alaska, New Zealand, Siberia, and Argentina dawn and dusk (twilight) can last for hours during the spring and fall and all day long during winter months. An illuminated reticle could be very useful. Especially if the hunt of a lifetime were depending on it.


Noted. ;)

[Inuvik]

A couple other places you might want to spend some money would be a nice rangefinder, and some sort of altimeter and thermometer. The Shooter App works great if you know your distance, altitude, and temperature.

My shooting partner has a really nice Leica rangefinder that works well. The last time we went shooting out in Nevada, we went to a new spot, and were off by about 2000 feet in guessing our altitude. This translated into a lot of misses and frustration. That 2K feet of altitude difference resulted in a 1.5 mil error at 800 yards.

[wilson1911]

Typically putting a 20 moa base on a gun will get the job done with most scopes in the medium price range and up.

I use a Nightforce scope ATACR, Vectronix/Terrapin range finder, Kestral w/Applied Ballistics and Nightforce spotting scope. The gun is a custom 338 Lapua Magnum. Where I live there are several 1000 yard ranges I can shoot at. I have had my gun for 8 months and I still have lots to learn. What I have learned is to buy the best glass you can afford, which should be a Vortex PST FFP, or a NF and a good base. Having all the other equip is nice, but not a must have.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have bought a Nightforce and any cheap bolt gun that you can upgrade the trigger. Shoot the barrel out, then you will be ready for more. Badgers are good bases, which you can move to your new gun later on.

I just saw I did not read page one lol. As it seems you have the cash go NF ATACR or BEAST, Kestral, and any bolt gun to learn on. If you decide to buy a high end gun first, you can bet your going to want some changes down the road.

If you have not built your gun yet, there is a gun shop here and he builds them for a decent price. His 6x47 Lapua shoots 4 inch groups at 1K all day. Matt shot a deer this year @ 867 yards verified with vectronix range finder. pm me if your interested.

From here I would find a good node on your barrel. Borrow a friends chrono to find your speed, then make a dope chart. Remember the fastest is not always the best. Most of the rest is learning your gun, breathing, trigger pull. Try to shoot 20-40 rounds a week.

This is to just make sure your going to like long range shooting, it takes a great amount of patience and learning make the long ones. 6x47L is a much better choice than 308, but requires reloading.

Do you reload ? if not I would start.

[teutonicpolymer]

I would look at Nightforce offerings and the SWFA 5-20X

I believe there is also the Bushnell something that has the Horus reticle which people like and I have been wanting to buy

and if you're in AZ you really don't need an illuminated reticle... I do suggest you get a sunshade though...

[Mariley85]

I have a Bushnell ERS 3.5-21x with the G2DMR on my .308 and could not be happier. I would gladly buy it again and again. For a scope in the sub-$2000 range, I don't feel it can be beat.

[INMY01TA]

If I had that kinda money to blow on a scope I'd go with a Steiner 5-25, Schmidt and Bender PMII, or wait for the new Vortex Razor genII hd.