Upgrading Large ALICE packs

[HES]

Recently our Boy Scout troop was gifted about 20 large ALICE packs. Unfortunately they did not come with straps, waist belts, or frames. Does anyone have a good source for these items other than Tactical Tailor, whom I've already contacted?

Mods, please feel free to move this to the Fieldcraft & Survival forum it you think that is a better place for this sort of thread.

[Zambowhite]

For the frame you can check out downeast 1606 made as an upgrade for the Alice.

[St.Michael]

Ebay man. If you only need surplus stuff ebay is the way to go. Ive got like 3 brand new alice packs off there for about 15 bucks. I am sure they have parts on there.

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[NCPatrolAR]

eBay or surplus shops are the route I'd go

[Grizzly16]

I've had a few orders from tonystactical.com and been very happy with it. He seems like a pretty good guy over all. You might contact him about a bulk order of frame + molle 2 belt + molle II shoulder straps. Which transform an alice pack into a great setup.

I followed the guide he has on building a hellcat pack (medium alice + alice frame + molle II belt + molle II shoulders + molle II sleep carrier) and love the result.

[ra2bach]

honest question - are alice packs a good choice compared to more modern equipment or are they just cost expedient? seems like a lot of people spend a lot of money upgrading them with new frames, etc...

[Grizzly16]

honest question - are alice packs a good choice compared to more modern equipment or are they just cost expedient? seems like a lot of people spend a lot of money upgrading them with new frames, etc...

I built my "hellcat" for around $55. Army surplus/flea market prices. It is a crazy mis-match of woodland camo, desert camo, olive drab and such but it works.
Medium Alice pack + frame = $20
Molle II belt = $10 (Desert camo)
Molle II shoulder straps + mss sleep carrier $25 (new ish)

For my setup they work very very well. I've got the build of a pack mule not a race horse so I don't mind not having the cool kid ultra light stuff. My typical load in the alice for down to 15 degrees:
ECWCS black bag + bivy sac
6x12 tarp - can be a ground cover or tarp shelter if the rain is very heavy to keep the pack and my head dry
Light hammock w/ bug net - if it warms up this is a very comfy sleep
Change of clothes
Extra set of wool base layer in dry bag
Food
Fire making stuff x2
A pair shoes for camp + river crossings
3L bladder
Poncho for rain and bag coverage
Beta iodine for purification/cuts.
Metal cook set
Break down 22 rifle.

All that fits very nicely into the alice and rides well.

For summer hiking I REALLY like the alice pack. The frame keeps your pack off your back and makes for a very breathable setup. I couldn't find another pack that versatile for anywhere near the money. High Sierra makes one for pretty cheap but the quality felt poor and it doesn't come with a sleeping bag bag.

Should the medium alice never hold what I want I can either add two sustainment pouches. Or I'll grab my ILBE, it is heavy but has enough room to fit most of what I own in it.

[HES]

honest question - are alice packs a good choice compared to more modern equipment or are they just cost expedient? seems like a lot of people spend a lot of money upgrading them with new frames, etc...
Speaking from experience I agree that they aren't a good choice and that its an issue of cost expediency. I would like to skip out on pure surplus parts seeing the shape my body is in from that monstrosity. But then I look at the cost of something like a Kealty Red Cloud and if the cost difference is $25 to $50 per scout family Vs. $200 then right now for their first packs the choice is obvious for many.

[Endur]

Check out T.A.G.

They sell waist belts, frames, and shoulder straps for them.

http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/rucksackstraps.aspx
http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/ruckkidneypad.aspx
http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/aliceframe.aspx

Or check out BDS Tactical:

http://www.bdstacticalgear.com/pd-bds-tactical-ruck-kidney-pad.cfm
http://www.bdstacticalgear.com/pd-bds-tactical-ruck-shoulder-pads.cfm

[Scoby]

As others have mentioned, eBay is a good source for Alice accessories.

Couple of others.

http://www.gunnyssurplus.com/packs.html
http://www.charleyssurplus.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=129_78&all=1

[just a scout]

The Big Green Tick is a good, solid, dependable, versatile, abusable ruck. It's also a back breaker. I have 7 vertebrae with compression fracture in the small of my back where the kidney pad used to sit. Of course, my load was anywhere from 40-100 pounds depending on what I was carrying. Inexpensive? Yes. Comfortable? No. I upgraded straps and pads from Ranger Joe's back in the day, and it helped, but I'm still paying the price now.

I sucked it up and bought a Kifaru Zulu (http://store.kifaru.net/zulu-3200ci524-liters-p46.aspx) that is solo much more comfortable and versatile. I wish I had that back when I was humping a ruck professionally, my back might not be as trashed as it is now. But, you pay out the nose for that quality. Be smart. Anything over 20-30lbs, you really NEED to be thinking about a well fitted waist strap to transfer the weight off your shoulders and back to your hips and legs. Or go the pistol belt/LBE route, and let the pack sit on the back pouches on your belt to transfer some of the weight.

Just my $0.02.

[HES]

Thanks guys. Got into a "discussion" this weekend with our committee chair about the progress of finding straps and frames. I once again told them that it was a horrible pack and for proof look at all the back and shoulder surgeries I've had to have. Their idea is that for kids whose parents have little to no cash, this is one way we can start them off with at least "something". With that in mind I'll continue to try to get them to change their minds while at the same time making sure the kids don't over load themselves.

[zombiescometh]

My first two hiking experiences with the boy scouts a bunch of us got to use those lovely alice packs and i hated that damn thing. You probably have thought of this, but my first thought is to ask other adults helping with the troop, former boy scouts and reach out to locals who enjoy the outdoors and hiking etc. to see if they have any extra older or unused packs lying around to donate or loan to the troop. Even beaten up hiking backpacks are better then those things. Luckily for my troop the old scoutmaster heard about our lack of good packs and with some help managed to come up with enough decent packs for us who didn't have the means.

[Grizzly16]

Thanks guys. Got into a "discussion" this weekend with our committee chair about the progress of finding straps and frames. I once again told them that it was a horrible pack and for proof look at all the back and shoulder surgeries I've had to have. Their idea is that for kids whose parents have little to no cash, this is one way we can start them off with at least "something". With that in mind I'll continue to try to get them to change their minds while at the same time making sure the kids don't over load themselves.

Have you tried the alice pack with the molle belt and shoulder straps? I have not had the pleasure of carrying a pure alice pack for days and days with 80+ lb of gear. But the comfort level difference between an pure allice and the alice frame/bag + molle strap/belt was huge to me. I put 40ish lb in and hiked 10-12 miles with each to compare.

[MH557]

Thanks guys. Got into a "discussion" this weekend with our committee chair about the progress of finding straps and frames. I once again told them that it was a horrible pack and for proof look at all the back and shoulder surgeries I've had to have. Their idea is that for kids whose parents have little to no cash, this is one way we can start them off with at least "something". With that in mind I'll continue to try to get them to change their minds while at the same time making sure the kids don't over load themselves.

Would it be an option to sell the donated packs on E-Bay or similiar site and use the funds to purchase something better suited to your needs? Maybe contact a local sporting goods store and ask if they would be interested in donating, or selling at a discounted rate, packs left over from last years inventory? You may not be able to acquire 20 packs but even half that number in usable equipment may be a good compromise.

[ra2bach]

Thanks guys. Got into a "discussion" this weekend with our committee chair about the progress of finding straps and frames. I once again told them that it was a horrible pack and for proof look at all the back and shoulder surgeries I've had to have. Their idea is that for kids whose parents have little to no cash, this is one way we can start them off with at least "something". With that in mind I'll continue to try to get them to change their minds while at the same time making sure the kids don't over load themselves.

yes, I see this as a very viable alternative for little cash in your application. and the upside is that these kids will probably not be carrying the back breaking loads that those whose job it was to carry them will be.

my question is that I see a lot of people with more re$ources at their disposal, choosing these as a top notch alternative and I wondered if with simple up grading could they be made from an ugly duckling into a swan?

I've humped internal frame packs and for warmer weather, I prefer external with mesh suspension. the pack I used was a Kelty external frame and it could be used as just a pack frame with a shelf if you took the bag off. looking for something like that now for packing meat out of the woods...

[HES]

Being in Florida I'm well familiar with the benefits of an external frame pack, but to be honest I haven't found one that really looks good. Right now the Kelty Red Cloud 90 is the pack of choice for those families that have the coin, but it's an internal frame.

[Endur]

They might be a little large for your kids but they are generally cheap and really nice packs. Check out the Gen II ILBE's. You can find them all over the net in good condition for about $50-$70. Check out Amazon or Ebay. It would be cheaper than refitting those horrible Alice packs. I would take an Alice over a MOLLE II any day though. I hated those damn things. If funds were unlimited, you wont beat Kifaru.

[ra2bach]

Being in Florida I'm well familiar with the benefits of an external frame pack, but to be honest I haven't found one that really looks good...

ayep... that's kinda why I was asking your perception of these alice packs. for not much more than what you are looking to upgrade the alice, you could have a nice pack that is modeled after the Kelty D2 I used to use - http://www.campmor.com/jansport-scout-external-frame-backpack-1.shtml

this is a youth size pack but is adjustable for torso length and waist size. you can also move the bag and waist belt up or down on the frame. mesh lumbar cushion. good warranty and good reviews. this is Campmor so maybe if you contact them with your needs they might be able to work out some kind of discount for a multiple order...

I found this pack while looking for the D2 but sadly, it appears that's an antique and no longer available anywhere so what's that say about me?.. :cray:
I remember it being really adjustable/modular in that the straps and pack itself were held on with clevis pins through different points in the frame and you were able to add other types of accessories, including a pack basket which I used for wood cutting, and a lower shelf for sleeping gear...

[cinco]

Hybrid ALICE/MOLLE Packs

I'd consider reading this guy's post. He's the one who came up with several mod's that really do improve the old stock ALICE. He mentions he's done numerous mods for his Scout troop and the adjustability for torso length is great for growing kids.

I've done his HellCat mod to my large ALICE (he uses a medium pack with a Molle sleep carrier, but you can use the large instead)- feels great now and adjustable for height.

HellCat Hybrid ALICE/MOLLE Ruck
http://libertytreeblogs.blogspot.com/2011/04/building-hellcat-hybrid-ruck-from-us.html

HellCat Fit and Adjustment
http://libertytreeblogs.blogspot.com/2011/05/hellcat-fit-and-adjustment.html

BobCat Medium No Frame Mod
http://libertytreeblogs.blogspot.com/2011/05/frameless-alice-modification-bobcat_05.html

There is also one that uses the Molle II Plastic Frame - can't recall the name.