View Full Version : Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
Belmont31R
03-08-14, 01:53
Looks like it went down off the coast of Vietnam.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/7/5483250/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-carrying-239-people
Damn. I'm flying Singapore Air to Cambodia next month...
Scooter,
What will you be doing in Cambodia? Any particular area or just Phnom Penh?
Whiskey_Bravo
03-08-14, 09:57
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-missing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
2 people listed as passengers on missing Malaysia Airlines plane were not on board, Austrian and Italian officials say.
Looks like a couple of stolen passports were used on the flight.
http://news.yahoo.com/oil-slicks-found-hunt-missing-malaysia-jet-135232226--finance.html
Anyone else immediately think of the Bojinka Plot on this one? :(
BoringGuy45
03-08-14, 11:08
I'm thinking they're on an island somewhere about to discover the Dharma Initiative :D
Scooter,
What will you be doing in Cambodia? Any particular area or just Phnom Penh?
Just going on an adventure to explore some temples, etc.
I'll only be in Siem Reap, then to Chiang Mai, Thailand.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
03-09-14, 20:44
Just going on an adventure to explore some temples, etc.
I'll only be in Siem Reap, then to Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Singapore, Cambodia, and Thailand. If you can get away fro the filth, you'll have the time of your life.
God rest the souls of those lost and heal the souls of those still here and affected by this plane(crash?).
Just going on an adventure to explore some temples, etc.
I'll only be in Siem Reap, then to Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Go check on my old home in Phnom Penh would you ... :)
Angkor Wat in Siem Reap is the place. My parents took me there when I was 6. Hope to be back soon.
Singapore, Cambodia, and Thailand. If you can get away fro the filth, you'll have the time of your life.
There are some nasty stuff and places. But LSHD is right, there are some breath taking views too.
Beware of the unrests in Thailand and Cambodia. The workers are protesting against the Hun Sen government in Phnom Penh.
and yes, praying that those souls that are lost didn't suffer much. Thoughts with their families.
black22rifle
03-11-14, 11:00
Could it be possible that they hijacked it and are on their way somewhere? How far can those things travel with a full fuel tank?
Could it be possible that they hijacked it and are on their way somewhere? How far can those things travel with a full fuel tank?
They don't travel with full tanks; that is wasteful. FAA regs require time to airport + alternate (if required) + 45 minutes reserve. That is apx an additional 2 hours of flight time before the engines quit if their alternate is within an hour of their destination (which can be 400 miles with a climb in there). There is a little wiggle room in there for route flying and other factors, but costs are a big constraint for flying with full tanks.
black22rifle
03-11-14, 11:46
So its most likely that thing went into the ocean? It's amazing how that thing just vanished.
So its most likely that thing went into the ocean? It's amazing how that thing just vanished.
If they did crash into the ocean, they will be incredibly difficult to find. Even a large debris field is tough to locate in such a vast area.
montanadave
03-11-14, 13:49
Now folks are saying the planed flipped a U-turn and headed back over the Straits of Malacca after turning off or disabling the transponder. Might be due to a complete electrical failure or . . . hell, who knows. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/us-malaysiaairlines-flight-idUSBREA2701720140311
SilverBullet432
03-11-14, 14:13
So they knew it turned around, but just barely saying?
Now I don't know what the hell to believe. Wasn't there a report of an airplane door being pulled out of the drink a few days ago?
ETA:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/09/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-carrying-23-people/
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-14, 16:51
I have to wonder considering the two stolen passports used on this flight if there is any connection with the Islamic militants in Xinjiang and the recent knife attacks.
Missing Malaysia Airlines flight: Unknown Chinese group claims responsibility for the disappearance
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-unknown-3227477#ixzz2vh1B5pGT
Now folks are saying the planed flipped a U-turn and headed back over the Straits of Malacca after turning off or disabling the transponder. Might be due to a complete electrical failure or . . . hell, who knows. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/us-malaysiaairlines-flight-idUSBREA2701720140311
If true that would explain why they have not found any debris. They are looking way in the wrong place.
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/531f6e1769bedd495162e5c8-1200-667/screen%20shot%202014-03-11%20at%204.02.41%20pm.png
http://www.businessinsider.com/map-route-of-missing-plane-per-malaysian-military-2014-3
I'm in Australia, and last night there was a 20-something year old female on TV that came forward with a rather odd story involving the pilot of the missing flight.
Apparently, she and a friend were on a flight and the same pilot (and maybe co-pilot?) invited them into the cockpit. She claims that the pilots were smoking cigarettes and playing around. However, she claims that although they were relaxed, she never felt that the were un-professional...
black22rifle
03-11-14, 18:35
I'm in Australia, and last night there was a 20-something year old female on TV that came forward with a rather odd story involving the pilot of the missing flight.
Apparently, she and a friend were on a flight and the same pilot (and maybe co-pilot?) invited them into the cockpit. She claims that the pilots were smoking cigarettes and playing around. However, she claims that although they were relaxed, she never felt that the were un-professional...
Somehow that reminds me of Denzel's "Flight" movie.
Belmont31R
03-11-14, 18:53
At this point I don't think they have a clue where this aircraft is. The western side is a huge shipping lane. Surely someone would have saw something or spotted debris. Plus all the fisherman and others out on the water.
I thought these planes had a near constant sat link. I mean wifi is becoming standard but we still rely on radar that has spotty coverage?
RogerinTPA
03-11-14, 19:38
At this point I don't think they have a clue where this aircraft is. The western side is a huge shipping lane. Surely someone would have saw something or spotted debris. Plus all the fisherman and others out on the water.
Agreed, but given the search party was directed to search the wrong area for several days, it may have provided the distraction necessary to have that aircraft fly anywhere in it's fuel range. As of this point, because of a lack of debris field, I no longer have 'accident' at the top of the list of possibilities. Hijack/Piracy has taken the lead.
thought these planes had a near constant sat link. I mean wifi is becoming standard but we still rely on radar that has spotty coverage?
Depends on what configuration it was ordered in. Much like buying a car, you can get all the extra stuff, or bare bones model. Since it's in that area, I'd suspect it was a barebones model. They should have ACARs on board, which updates the company's ground station with aircraft operating data at regular intervals, a text message system, as well as a bunch of pilot info (weather, flight plan), but if it was broken/InOp, or turned off like the transponder, nothing is transmitted. If it was an actual emergency, a MayDay call would have been broadcasted. BUT, not all pilots are the same, or has the same level of training as a US pilot, as in the 777 crash in KSFO, who weren't proficient in stick flying (manual flight) without George (autopilot). The website FlightAware, can track any aircraft in almost real time, but the transponder must be on.
Belmont31R
03-11-14, 19:53
Thanks for the info. Just seems odd to me these planes don't have GPS tracking. I see GPS units on all kinds of commercial trucks from pickups to tractors, have used military systems, ect. A commercial jet is hundreds of millions. Guess it didn't compute in my head that tracking is pretty low tech and can just be turned off.
RogerinTPA
03-11-14, 19:59
Thanks for the info. Just seems odd to me these planes don't have GPS tracking. I see GPS units on all kinds of commercial trucks from pickups to tractors, have used military systems, ect. A commercial jet is hundreds of millions. Guess it didn't compute in my head that tracking is pretty low tech and can just be turned off.
A lot of systems are interconnected, as in the transponder. If you turn it off, it disables a lot of stuff, including the GPS, radar altimeter, and I believe ACARS.
There is no way you can convince me that once the Jet started to deviate from the original waypoints, no one took notice, and it was not being tracked. There is no such thing as just losing a Commerical Airliner.
RogerinTPA
03-11-14, 20:24
There is no way you can convince me that once the Jet started to deviate from the original waypoints, no one took notice, and it was not being tracked. There is no such thing as just losing a Commerical Airliner.
Believe it or not, there is a whole lot of the planet not covered by radar. There are different types of radar, the age of the radar, the coverage they provide (circular distance of coverage), the aircraft's proximity to the radar's coverage, etc... If it's a first world country with money, if it was up and running and not down for maintenance, etc... No matter how many times I've piloted aircraft back and forth to europe, almost the entire route is a nonradar environment, and strictly based on pilot position reporting.
Believe it or not, there is a whole lot of the planet not covered by radar. There are different types of radar, the age of the radar, the coverage they provide (circular distance of coverage), the aircraft's proximity to the radar's coverage, etc... If it's a first world country with money, if it was up and running and not down for maintenance, etc... No matter how many times I've piloted aircraft back and forth to europe, almost the entire route is a nonradar environment, and strictly based on pilot position reporting.
I guess I assume or assumed that a fairly modern Jetliner, like say a Commercial Boeing 777 would have a very sophisticated and redundant Avionics Suite, no?
And would Air Traffic Control have Spotty Tracking on the Aircraft thru various parts of the world? What about company installed real time GPS for Tracking and Monitoring and Performance Data? What about TCAS?
Belmont31R
03-11-14, 20:51
Is there an option on these types of commercial jets for 24/7 GPS monitoring? Or at least when powered up?
SilverBullet432
03-11-14, 21:02
Thanks for the info. Just seems odd to me these planes don't have GPS tracking. I see GPS units on all kinds of commercial trucks from pickups to tractors, have used military systems, ect. A commercial jet is hundreds of millions. Guess it didn't compute in my head that tracking is pretty low tech and can just be turned off.
yep. my trucks have gps units wired in, hell even my trailers do
Preface. I have no aviation experience. I have thought about taking lessons to VFf rated...
Why in 2014 do pilots have the ability to turn off the transponder mid flight???
A lot of systems are interconnected, as in the transponder. If you turn it off, it disables a lot of stuff, including the GPS, radar altimeter, and I believe ACARS.
Sorry, but WTF are you talking about?
None of those systems are interconnected AT ALL.
I can turn the transponder off or on and not affect GPS, RA, or ACARS. Without pulling CB's I cant shut off the RA, GPS or ACARS. I can have the RA MEL'd yet still use GPS or ACARS, same with the rest. Funny thing though if the sensor on the main cabin door that tells us if its open or closed goes out the ****ing ACARS wont work.
None of those systems rely on a transponder.
The current crop of transponders is Mode-S which transmits more info than the old Mode-C, but its still not as good as ADS-B which is the new technology thats being developed to phase out radar and use GPS data only in the ATC system. We still rely on radar in aviation because nobody wants to foot the bill for ADS-B which is in the trillions of dollars to outfit the world with it as well as every airplane that would require it. I think just in the USA the bill is somewhere in the 50-75 billion range and nobody will pay for it even though its a WAY better system than radar and can do a lot of stuff such as slowing aircraft or turning them for spacing requirements with no involvement from a controller. Its cool technology, but the cost is the limiting factor here and the fact that if they did it, it would take 10 years to outfit all aircraft and they could never force general aviation guys to spend the money so you would STILL need radar, at least at the lower altitudes.
You all have to realize that you can bolt any piece of shit onto a semi truck or trailer and it will do what you want for a few hundred bucks(I have no clue what those systems cost). Lets look at aviation: the windshield in my plane costs 35k bucks. A FADEC(full authority digital engine control) computer that runs an engine(I have 4 FADEC's on my airplane) cost ~400k bucks. A winglet cost's somewhere in the 100k range. We are looking at putting ipad's for charting on our whole fleet(275 airplanes), the ****ing mount, GPS antenna, and wiring costs 8k bucks and we need 2 plus it takes the airplane out of service for 3 days for the install which is roughly 150k in lost revenue. Thats 41 MILLION in lost revenue to install a $600 IPAD. We still carry a 30lb flight bag, 3 years later.
Preface. I have no aviation experience. I have thought about taking lessons to VFf rated...
Why in 2014 do pilots have the ability to turn off the transponder mid flight???
Why shouldnt we?
Its not like you turn the transponder off and the airplane disappears....oh wait... No thats a myth, really.
But really we need to be able to turn the transponder off on the ground as well as the various modes for ground ops(most transponders that have TCAS have 4 options: OFF, ON, ATC-ON and TCAS). On the ground we use off or ATC-ON to send the Mode-S data to the ground radar that a lot of ATC is using. There are certain times that we might want to NOT use the TCAS(traffic collission avoidance) when it might give false info on close parallel approaches or something like that.
There are two types of radar: primary and secondary. Primary picks up large objects. Secondary interrogates all the transponders. Secondary is realistically what ATC uses most of the time. Its not necessarily the "airplane" that is showing up on ATC radar, its the transponder via the secondary.
SilverBullet432
03-11-14, 22:34
.
You all have to realize that you can bolt any piece of shit onto a semi truck or trailer and it will do what you want for a few hundred bucks(I have no clue what those systems cost). .
The unit runs $300-400, (I install them myself, saves $80) and my cost per month is $20/Unit.
RogerinTPA
03-11-14, 22:37
I guess I assume or assumed that a fairly modern Jetliner, like say a Commercial Boeing 777 would have a very sophisticated and redundant Avionics Suite, no?
And would Air Traffic Control have Spotty Tracking on the Aircraft thru various parts of the world? What about company installed real time GPS for Tracking and Monitoring and Performance Data? What about TCAS?
All of it is interconnected in modern aircraft. Turn off the transponder or it malfunctions, or the radar altimeter goes out, it all goes out.
All of it is interconnected in modern aircraft. Turn off the transponder or it malfunctions, or the radar altimeter goes out, it all goes out.
again...BULL SHIT.
What airplane do you fly that everything is THAT interconnect that if one system like a transponder(which in the grand scheme doesnt ****ing matter anyway) the WHOLE thing goes out? I'd like to meet the avionics engineer that designed that system and kick him in the nuts. Theres an engineering thing called systems safety where you grid out the systems and interconnects and see where failure points are and attempt to eliminate them. If losing a system as minor as the transponder causes you to lose damn near everything, whoever designed the system is an idiot.
Transponder has NOTHING to do with radar altimeter or GPS or ACARS. None of those systems rely on each other, get input from each other, etc... ACARS may get data from the GPS through the FMS, but even then if GPS goes out, the whole ACARS doesnt stop functioning. Radar altitude sends signal to the EGPWS and windshear computers so without it you lose those two systems. Same with GPS, if it goes out we would lose EGPWS(doesnt know where its at in the database) unless the EGPWS has its own built in GPS, which I dont think most do.
RogerinTPA
03-11-14, 23:00
again...BULL SHIT.
What airplane do you fly that everything is THAT interconnect that if one system like a transponder(which in the grand scheme doesnt ****ing matter anyway) the WHOLE thing goes out? I'd like to meet the avionics engineer that designed that system and kick him in the nuts. Theres an engineering thing called systems safety where you grid out the systems and interconnects and see where failure points are and attempt to eliminate them. If losing a system as minor as the transponder causes you to lose damn near everything, whoever designed the system is an idiot.
Transponder has NOTHING to do with radar altimeter or GPS or ACARS. None of those systems rely on each other, get input from each other, etc... ACARS may get data from the GPS through the FMS, but even then if GPS goes out, the whole ACARS doesnt stop functioning. Radar altitude sends signal to the EGPWS and windshear computers so without it you lose those two systems. Same with GPS, if it goes out we would lose EGPWS(doesnt know where its at in the database) unless the EGPWS has its own built in GPS, which I dont think most do.
Dude, slow down and calm down. Most of the aircraft I've flown, many of the systems were tied together, in one way or another. The fact remains, it can all be disabled.
Dude, slow down and calm down. Most of the aircraft I've flown, many of the systems were tied together, in one way or another. The fact remains, it can all be disabled.
Im fairly calm, but when somebody is saying things that are completely not true, I will call them out. Especially when you are talking to a bunch of non pilot types who will take what you say as gospel, even if what you say isnt right.
You have said multiple times in this thread that if the transponder goes out or is turned off other things automatically dont work anymore. I say bull shit. No Boeing, Airbus, Canadair or Embraer product does this(which those are the 4 major types flying in the airline world today). Ive never flown an aircraft that had the transponder tied into anything more than the TCAS system.
Im not saying everything cant be disabled, there are circuit breakers and off switches for a reason.
But for you to keep saying "if the transponder is shut off or disabled in anyway" lots of other systems go off line is completely not true. Or "if one thing goes out, it all goes out" again is 100% false. Modern aircraft, especially those in the transport category, have multiple, multiple failure modes so that the failure of one system(especially something as minor as a transponder) doesnt really affect much else.
montanadave
03-12-14, 07:41
What a cluster****. There are so many contradictory statements from "official" sources and erroneous stories from reckless media outlets that a search for a presumably downed aircraft has turned into a global game of "Where's Waldo?".
Belmont31R
03-12-14, 08:18
Days after Malaysian jetliner vanishes, authorities say they don't know which direction it was heading: http://t.co/ijAlQHRHII
Voodoochild
03-12-14, 08:18
What a cluster****. There are so many contradictory statements from "official" sources and erroneous stories from reckless media outlets that a search for a presumably downed aircraft has turned into a global game of "Where's Waldo?".
This is what happens when the media is all about sensationalism instead of honest reporting and trying to get to the bottom of things and help out. Why do you think everything has a nickname nowadays.. I am surprised they haven't called this the "Terror Flight" or "Vanishing Plane Gate 2014".
davidjinks
03-12-14, 08:31
Maybe it's just me, I don't know, I cannot fathom that (If this plane went down: Crashed) there hasn't been a single piece of debris found, recognized, washed up or is just floating in the ocean. Any flights I have ever taken I've always been told that "Your seat cushions can be used as a floatation device". I'm having a hard time that not one single piece of this crashed flight has been found.
davidjinks
03-12-14, 08:31
I think it's already been named…The Malaysian Malady.
Belmont31R
03-12-14, 08:38
This is what happens when the media is all about sensationalism instead of honest reporting and trying to get to the bottom of things and help out. Why do you think everything has a nickname nowadays.. I am surprised they haven't called this the "Terror Flight" or "Vanishing Plane Gate 2014".
To be fair on this one the Malaysian government has been issuing conflicting statements, retracting statements, and generally talking out of their ass.
davidjinks
03-12-14, 08:41
Indeed so…I'm not sure why. You'd figure a plane carrying 230+ people that just disappears would be a "Don't **** around with this story, this is serious shit that we need to figure out."
Not only the Malay gov, but our own has been putting out some weird juju on this as well. And as was stated, our LSM is really going over the top for the sensationalism of it all.
To be fair on this one the Malaysian government has been issuing conflicting statements, retracting statements, and generally talking out of their ass.
Oil rig worker says he saw plane in flames.
https://twitter.com/BobWoodruff/status/443713159732289536
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BihixI6CYAAz_s5.jpg:large
Grand58742
03-12-14, 14:21
Oil rig worker says he saw plane in flames.
https://twitter.com/BobWoodruff/status/443713159732289536
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BihixI6CYAAz_s5.jpg:large
If my Google map skills are accurate, this is the location of the rig:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/8°22'30.2"N+108°42'22.3"E/@8.1865919,108.5937385,530835m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en
Well away from the search area.
montanadave
03-12-14, 14:34
If my Google map skills are accurate, this is the location of the rig:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/8°22'30.2"N+108°42'22.3"E/@8.1865919,108.5937385,530835m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en
Well away from the search area.
But pretty close to where they reported a debris field spotting a couple of days ago: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/10/nine-countries-in-massive-three-day-search-for-malaysia-airlines-jet-have-only-ocean-debris-to-show-for-efforts/
Grand58742
03-12-14, 14:54
But pretty close to where they reported a debris field spotting a couple of days ago: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/10/nine-countries-in-massive-three-day-search-for-malaysia-airlines-jet-have-only-ocean-debris-to-show-for-efforts/
You know, I'm not one that believes in coincidence. But that's way too close for comfort.
Belmont31R
03-12-14, 16:47
Chinese have sat images of what could be the plane. Not 100% it as of now, though.
SilverBullet432
03-12-14, 16:49
Chinese have sat images of what could be the plane. Not 100% it as of now, though.
Link?
Whiskey_Bravo
03-12-14, 16:53
Link?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html
(CNN) -- A Chinese satellite looking into the mysterious disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 "observed a suspected crash area at sea," a Chinese government agency said -- a potentially pivotal lead into what has been a frustrating search for the Boeing 777.
SilverBullet432
03-12-14, 17:15
hmm interesting.
CNN has images from a Chinese satellite showing three items floating south of Vietnam. They measure pretty large too. Like 15 meters by 10 meters.
CNN has images from a Chinese satellite showing three items floating south of Vietnam. They measure pretty large too. Like 15 meters by 10 meters.
Floating, possibility for survivors??? Assuming that is the airliner.
Hard to imagine there would be survivors if a person saw it in flames going into the drink.
I'm thinking they finally found it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26554875
Am I the only one who is remembering KAL 007? Wonder if the Chinese or someone shot this plane down by mistake?
Am I the only one who is remembering KAL 007? Wonder if the Chinese or someone shot this plane down by mistake?
That was my first thought when I heard the Chinese had the images 4 days ago..
Hard to imagine there would be survivors if a person saw it in flames going into the drink.
I didn't hear people saw it going down in flames?
Am I the only one who is remembering KAL 007? Wonder if the Chinese or someone shot this plane down by mistake?
Actually I think the two Iranians with stolen passports are more likely the key clue as to what happened.
Belmont31R
03-12-14, 23:49
Wow. This keeps getting weirder.
U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours http://on.wsj.com/1eu62xF
Actually I think the two Iranians with stolen passports are more likely the key clue as to what happened.
That's my thought as well.
Belmont31R
03-13-14, 00:12
BREAKING: Malaysian aviation chief says no plane debris found at spot shown by China's satellite images
I'm still in awe as how a plane can vanish just like that. After all the weird turns this thing has taken, some of these conspiracy theories might actually carry some weight.
The chicom data was from 3/9. IIRC. So the physical investigation was 2-3 days later.
This thing is a trip! You'd think that an asset of that value would still have some redundant GPS marker that would back up the transponder disable.
This thing is getting weirder by the minute. I have no flight experience with multi million $$ airplanes, but I'm in the same camp as those who think it goofy that no backup exists to the transponder We all know and understand that radar is spotty and can't really be everywhere. It would seem logical that in the event the transponder gets turned off mid flight a backup would start singing like a hour boy. One would think the first order of business any hijackers would take is to try and disable the means of tracking the plane. You'd think that in today's WOT frenzy there would be some redundancy built in. Say if after reaching 10k ft the transponder goes dead for any reason the "black box" starts screaming for all she's worth.
If the fake passport reports are in fact true, then this is an act of terror. Either hijacking gone awry or well (we can't seem to find the darned thing) or simple Lockerbie blow the thing out of the sky event. Either way IMO China will want to hide the fact that a second act of terror was successful in killing a number of Chinese citizens. China will do everything to suppress any relevant information, much like the USSR did.
TacticalSledgehammer
03-13-14, 12:01
I think it flew to a airport in a remote location. My guess would be a middle eastern country or cambodia.
I think it flew to a airport in a remote location. My guess would be a middle eastern country or cambodia.
I'm doubtful. I say that assuming that at least on person would be able to sneak a communication out somehow.... even if they tried to round up all electronics.
This thing is getting weirder by the minute. I have no flight experience with multi million $$ airplanes, but I'm in the same camp as those who think it goofy that no backup exists to the transponder We all know and understand that radar is spotty and can't really be everywhere. It would seem logical that in the event the transponder gets turned off mid flight a backup would start singing like a hour boy. One would think the first order of business any hijackers would take is to try and disable the means of tracking the plane. You'd think that in today's WOT frenzy there would be some redundancy built in. Say if after reaching 10k ft the transponder goes dead for any reason the "black box" starts screaming for all she's worth.
Honestly the transponder being turned off or being disabled, while a possibility, isnt high on my list of things that "may" have happened. Its so inconsequential IMO. And I do have a lot of experience flying fully automated, integrated avionics aircraft. IF there was such a HUGE event that the aircraft had a total electrical power loss(which would be IMO exceedingly rare(i.e. so far has NEVER happened to my knowledge in the 777) in a 777 that has 4 generators, 2 on each engine, plus a RAT(ram air turbine), PLUS a generator on the APU that will auto start the APU in case of total electrical failure from the engine driven generators), whatever "backup" tracking system would most likely go down too.
Primary radar should STILL have picked up an object of that size, especially the military primary radar that Vietnam "says" they were using.
The ELT's (emergency locator transmitters) are generally transmitting on multiple frequencies as well as having a GPS locator, however their "visibility" so to speak if the A/C is under water is questionable at best. The one on my A/C is removable and if we were to ditch, if you think about it, you are supposed to take it with you(its in the back of the A/C, I aint going back there if the A/C is sinking so I guess were shit out of luck). I believe our FA's also have a "portable" ELT type system now too they are supposed to take with them if we ditch.
Actually I think the two Iranians with stolen passports are more likely the key clue as to what happened.
One hell of a coincidence.... but why no one taking credit.
One hell of a coincidence.... but why no one taking credit.
Maybe because the plane might be parked someplace and that is just part of the plan. Who knows.
Actually I think the two Iranians with stolen passports are more likely the key clue as to what happened.
Folks fly on stolen/fake passports quite often, especially in that area of the world. This is not unusual.
I of course have no knowledge of what happened, but I would guess
1) someone does and is not talking.
2) the plane went down nowhere near where the transponder went off.
This incident highlights once again that whatever the media reports in the early hours/days of an event, usually 99.99% wrong.
Whiskey_Bravo
03-13-14, 13:13
Folks fly on stolen/fake passports quite often, especially in that area of the world. This is not unusual.
That may be true, but then again 777s don't vanish very often at the same time two young men from a terrorist state just happen to be flying on fake passports.
NEW THEORY
Plane lost cabin pressure and knocked everyone on board out, plane continued on auto pilot after they made the turn and splashed down somewhere unknown. It could have flown for hours on auto pilot. Doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off.
I think it flew to a airport in a remote location. My guess would be a middle eastern country or cambodia.
Oh oh, now we're back to Cambodia again. lol. I doubt a plane as large as the 777 can land undetected at a major airport in Cambodia (Phnom Penh, Siem Riep, Battambang, Sihanoukville). Battambang and Sihanoukville may not even have any equipment to service this huge jet. Forget any little airfields scattered around the country. Even if they manage to land it, it won't ever take off again.
NEW THEORY
Plane lost cabin pressure and knocked everyone on board out, plane continued on auto pilot after they made the turn and splashed down somewhere unknown. It could have flown for hours on auto pilot. Doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off.
That's possible. They could have taken the plane, turned off the transponder, then their underwear bomb or whatever could have partially damaged the plane to the point of cabin pressure loss.
Reminds me of that pro golfers plane where that happened.... (not the Iranians with stolen passports part)
In my mind, there's ZERO chance that the plane is parked on land somewhere... or there'd be some signal from some electronic device form a passenger. It's in the ocean.
Moose-Knuckle
03-13-14, 15:25
One hell of a coincidence.... but why no one taking credit.
See post number 18 on page 1 of this thread, I linked a story to a group claiming responsibility.
justin_247
03-13-14, 18:27
NEW THEORY
Plane lost cabin pressure and knocked everyone on board out, plane continued on auto pilot after they made the turn and splashed down somewhere unknown. It could have flown for hours on auto pilot. Doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off.
I've been thinking about this one. It has occurred before, so it'd be interesting to see if it occurred again... seems like the most likely, at this point, especially if what they're saying about it continuing to fly for hours over the Indian Ocean is true.
supposedly some tv station in vietnam reported the plane landed in china. looking for more details.
I dont know about the 777, but in my A/C if the cabin altitude(at 37k feet we generally hold about a 7700-8000ft cabin depending on good the seals on the doors are) exceeds 10k feet an aural warning and master warning bell goes off. You will get a repeated REALLY LOUD triple ding and the aural alerted will be screaming "cabin, cabin" repeatedly and you cant shut it off. At 14k foot cabin altitude the masks in the back auto drop.
I have to think the 777 has a system almost identical to this as its a more technologically advanced aircraft than I fly.
I find the "de-pressurized and crew didnt don o2 masks" theory to be crap as well, with the caveat that I dont know if the 777 has a similar system to my airplane, but I have to think it does. The masks in the back WILL auto drop at some point(I am guessing around that same 14k foot mark since I believe its an FAA rule) so the FA's would KNOW something was up and get access to the cockpit(without giving away any sensitive security, in most aircraft the FA's CAN get into the cockpit in an emergency) and get the pilots on O2.
Even in an explosive decompression at 35k feet you have 5-10 seconds of useful consciousness, the masks in the cockpit are designed to be donned in 3-5 seconds and the crew would KNOW they had an explosive decompression and get their masks on. Explosive decompression's aint sneaky from what I have been told by a few who have experienced them. At 25k feet your time of useful consciousness can exceed 5 minutes and at about the 2 minute time frame you KNOW something is up. You feel like you are drunk. Ive been in a chamber before and lasted the whole 5 minutes at 25k feet. I was still fairly cognitively aware(could say my name, knew where I was), but I couldnt count backwards from 100.
I dont know about the 777, but in my A/C if the cabin altitude(at 37k feet we generally hold about a 7700-8000ft cabin depending on good the seals on the doors are) exceeds 10k feet an aural warning and master warning bell goes off. You will get a repeated REALLY LOUD triple ding and the aural alerted will be screaming "cabin, cabin" repeatedly and you cant shut it off. At 14k foot cabin altitude the masks in the back auto drop.
I have to think the 777 has a system almost identical to this as its a more technologically advanced aircraft than I fly.
I find the "de-pressurized and crew didnt don o2 masks" theory to be crap as well, with the caveat that I dont know if the 777 has a similar system to my airplane, but I have to think it does.
Even in an explosive decompression at 35k feet you have 5-10 seconds of useful consciousness, the masks in the cockpit are designed to be donned in 3-5 seconds and an the crew would KNOW they had an explosive decompression and get their masks on. Explosive decompression's aint sneaky from what I have been told by a few who have experienced them.
Unless the pilots were busy partying with passengers and therefore distracted or otherwise preoccupied as other previous passengers have reported. Again just a theory.
Unless the pilots were busy partying with passengers and therefore distracted or otherwise preoccupied as other previous passengers have reported. Again just a theory.
you wouldnt be distracted enough to NOT hear a cabin altitude alert and a master caution message going off, that shit is loud for a reason. And if the 777 is similar to my airplane where it goes off at 10k ft cabin altitude you have TONS of time to mask up and fix the situation.
Like I said, an explosive decompression, maybe I could buy that. A slow decompression and they were "distracted" or something and didnt mask up, I dont buy it.
Belmont31R
03-13-14, 19:06
Explosive decompression doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off.
Explosive decompression doesn't explain why the transponder was turned off.
im trying NOT to speculate due to the accident investigator in me, BUT depending on WHAT blew out(if it was an explosive decompression) it could have taken out wiring to the transponder antenna. The actual box may have never been "turned off", but the wiring to the antenna(or hell the panel the antenna is located on) could have departed the A/C.
Again, I dont believe "explosive decompression", "slow decompression" or any other kind of "decompression" caused this plane to disappear, crash, be taken by aliens, hit by a meteor, etc...
New Evidence Suggests That Plane Disappearance Was A Deliberate Act
http://www.businessinsider.com/mh370-deliberate-act-2014-3
Belmont31R
03-13-14, 19:42
im trying NOT to speculate due to the accident investigator in me, BUT depending on WHAT blew out(if it was an explosive decompression) it could have taken out wiring to the transponder antenna. The actual box may have never been "turned off", but the wiring to the antenna(or hell the panel the antenna is located on) could have departed the A/C.
Again, I dont believe "explosive decompression", "slow decompression" or any other kind of "decompression" caused this plane to disappear, crash, be taken by aliens, hit by a meteor, etc...
Do these types of planes use the skin of the aircraft for comms at all?
Malaysian Airlines plane pinged satellite for four hours after going missing, U.S. official says: http://t.co/OjRVFh2uFd
TacticalSledgehammer
03-13-14, 20:21
Family members are reporting their missing people's phones are still ringing. I still think it landed somewhere. Maybe not Cambodia, but perhaps Indonesia.
Do these types of planes use the skin of the aircraft for comms at all?
No. Aluminum skin that's coated with corrosion resistant coating is not a good conductor. Everything is on an antenna. Handheld gps generally doesn't even penetrate aircraft skin.
Theory. The two Iranians hijack the plane en and attempt to fly to their destination but run out of fuel and crash.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but since this plane hasn't been found after this long, I think it has landed somewhere with the intention of using it later. If this thing crashed into the ocean, they definitely would have found some kind evidence by now. Hell, even if it would have broken up at cruising altitude, there would be some kind of evidence somewhere.
New reports are saying engine data was being sent back to the manufacturer after the plane "lost" contact and it could have traveled another 2,200 miles... and how do you explain the stolen passports? Are stolen passports common?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/03/13/mh370_rolls_royce_wsj_report_raises_possibility_that_the_missing_craft_flew.html
And the story just keeps getting ever more weird.
"Radar Data Suggests The Missing Malaysia Plane Was Flown Deliberately Toward India's Andaman Islands"
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-exclusive-radar-data-suggests-missing-malaysia-plane-flown-deliberately-toward-andamans---sources-2014-14
"KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Military radar-tracking evidence suggests a Malaysia Airlines jetliner missing for nearly a week was deliberately flown across the Malay peninsula towards the Andaman Islands, sources familiar with the investigation told Reuters on Friday."
Plane was stolen or Hijacked. Radar Transponder turned off at altitude, then aircraft decended and landed somewhere. Passengers hopefully kept somewhere comfortable, could be used as ransom (maybe). Crash? Debris would have been found by now and so would the FDRs. Are they just searching over the water? If yes, then why? A landing somewhere on dry land cannot be ruled out. Just my .02.
Grand58742
03-14-14, 08:03
Are stolen passports common?
According to the reports I've seen on this, there are upwards of 40 million lost or stolen travel documents worldwide. That's a pretty big number.
Theory. The two Iranians hijack the plane en and attempt to fly to their destination but run out of fuel and crash.
This seems most plausible. Classic Terrorizor bungling. The FANTASY that this plane landed safely and everyone is sipping pina coladas while the Muzzies write some demands is laughable. That plane is under water.
platoonDaddy
03-14-14, 08:16
There is no doubt in my mind that our satellites and China's records the path of not only that plane but all movement within that AO. They are just winking at each other stating they don't know. Since there was only two Americans on the flight, it isn't a big deal here, on the other hand China isn't worried about their people.
EDIT: the word I was looking for was "each are shielding their snooping capabilities" It certainly was pinging satellites.
The "plane on fire" doesn't explain a hijacking nor terrorism. If it were on fire, which it sounds like it probably was, it's in the water. If it was a hijack, why was it on fire? If it -was- on fire, why no one takes credit?
Turning the transponder off was either pilot, co-pilot or a malfunction/result of other failure.. If the pilot / co-pilot, that means ( 2 passports / terrorists ) + (corrupt individual in cockpit ) .... that's one hell of a coincidence no one is taking credit for either.
I think three was some sort of serious failure, they tried to recover, and the plane is simply not where they thought it was. It has to be in the ocean. Maybe.... if the pilot was a nut case.. he tried take over the plane and in the process of trying to recover other stuff went wrong, but it still ends up in the water in an unexpected place. Hell I've lost water skis and anchors in the river standing right next to them. I'm pretty sure a plane can get lost in the ocean especially when everyone is looking in the wrong place. .... and if for whatever reason it was able to 'land' somewhat intact, all that floating debris would be trapped inside.... I think if anyone's surveillance has it, they would have have 'wink wink you might want to look over there' by now.
Crow Hunter
03-14-14, 11:48
I think someone shot it down and just isn't owning up to it.
Who, I don't know, but I think someone made a mistake and got off the approved flight path and went somewhere it wasn't supposed to be and it got shot down.
Instead of an international incident we have a "missing" plane.
The "plane on fire" doesn't explain a hijacking nor terrorism. If it were on fire, which it sounds like it probably was, it's in the water. If it was a hijack, why was it on fire? If it -was- on fire, why no one takes credit?
Turning the transponder off was either pilot, co-pilot or a malfunction/result of other failure.. If the pilot / co-pilot, that means ( 2 passports / terrorists ) + (corrupt individual in cockpit ) .... that's one hell of a coincidence no one is taking credit for either.
I think three was some sort of serious failure, they tried to recover, and the plane is simply not where they thought it was. It has to be in the ocean. Maybe.... if the pilot was a nut case.. he tried take over the plane and in the process of trying to recover other stuff went wrong, but it still ends up in the water in an unexpected place. Hell I've lost water skis and anchors in the river standing right next to them. I'm pretty sure a plane can get lost in the ocean especially when everyone is looking in the wrong place. .... and if for whatever reason it was able to 'land' somewhat intact, all that floating debris would be trapped inside.... I think if anyone's surveillance has it, they would have have 'wink wink you might want to look over there' by now.
This is possible. If the plane landed intact, then the plane would float for quite a while (Hudson river landing), but the people would still be on rafts somewhere if the plane survived the impact. There would be at least 6, if not 8 giant floating rafts that are lashed together creating a huge yellow water becon, plus the radio transmitters that are activated when they hit water, etc. There are too many not-happenings in this scenario to be likely for an intact water landing. 120 people (assuming half died in the intact landing) would be floating in the water somewhere to make it unlikely that the plane survived impact if it did indeed land in the water.
Family members are reporting their missing people's phones are still ringing. I still think it landed somewhere. Maybe not Cambodia, but perhaps Indonesia.
The phones ringing may have a normal explanation:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/11/288998085/ringing-phones-do-not-mean-malaysian-passengers-are-ok
TacticalSledgehammer
03-14-14, 13:05
The phones ringing may have a normal explanation:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/11/288998085/ringing-phones-do-not-mean-malaysian-passengers-are-ok
It's just another clue that could point to the jet being hijacked. If the beacons hadn't been turned off, the jet changing course, and the engine's data downloads showing the jet was still running 4-5 hours later, I wouldn't have given the cell phone story another look.
Anyone who thinks this plane LANDED somewhere is nuttier than a squirrel turd.
Anyone who thinks this plane LANDED somewhere is nuttier than a squirrel turd.
Now, now, it had to have "landed" somewhere. Unless of course we think it's still flying, or aliens picked it up, which in all honestly I am surprised hasn't been put forth by the fools in the media since they've thrown out every other possibility. Besides, as a pilot friend of mine once said, "You can land anywhere. Once." Now the ones who think everyone is still alive and well, just waiting to be picked up and taken to their final destination. Well then yes I would have to agree.
SAM or Air to Air gets my Conspiracy vote....
Since we're on the topic of cell phones, why can't the cell phone providers of all of the passengers track those phones? If not all, track as many as they can. Does the GPS setting and location setting supposed to be able to give the physical location of the phones? Or does the phone have to be in use for the tracking to work?
Or maybe the plane flew through a "rip" or "opening" in the time portal and went to another time period :)
Or maybe the plane flew through a "rip" or "opening" in the time portal and went to another time period :)
You might be on to something Sam, maybe they landed at the same airport in 'The Langoliers'.
Since we're on the topic of cell phones, why can't the cell phone providers of all of the passengers track those phones? If not all, track as many as they can. Does the GPS setting and location setting supposed to be able to give the physical location of the phones? Or does the phone have to be in use for the tracking to work?
Or maybe the plane flew through a "rip" or "opening" in the time portal and went to another time period :)
Hey I remember that movie......
http://www.712tomcats.com/photo_gallery/var/resizes/Tomcats-On-The-Big-Screen/Final%20Countdownlorez.jpg?m=1306632964
montanadave
03-14-14, 13:40
Based on the current evidence being made public, I'm going to speculate the plane got hijacked along it's original flight plan, the hijackers forced the crew to make the course change back over the Malay peninsula while disabling the various electronic location systems on the plane and scooping up all cell phones, etc., there's a United Flight 93 scenario, an explosive decompression, and the plane lands in the drink somewhere in the Indian Ocean.
And chances are we never actually know what the hell happened.
SomeOtherGuy
03-14-14, 13:57
Based on the current evidence being made public, I'm going to speculate the plane got hijacked along it's original flight plan, the hijackers forced the crew to make the course change back over the Malay peninsula while disabling the various electronic location systems on the plane and scooping up all cell phones, etc., there's a United Flight 93 scenario, an explosive decompression, and the plane lands in the drink somewhere in the Indian Ocean.
Agree. A decade or two ago there was an airliner hijacked somewhere over North Africa (?) and the hijackers directed it to fly to Madagascar, but the plane ran out of fuel short of any runway and crashed into the ocean - not on purpose, just on stupid. It was caught on amateur video by some beachgoers. I wouldn't be surprised if this went the same way - hijacked, or redirected by the pilot, and ultimately crashed somewhere in the Indian Ocean. If it landed at any airport I would think the US and China would have seen it on satellite imaging by now - I can't imagine many airports in that region that would be capable of receiving a 777 AND putting it inside a hangar, that wouldn't also have too much observation to avoid having the public notice that a missing 777 had landed there. (I am assuming that countries without 777 sized aircraft in their air force don't build military hangars large enough to accommodate that size of aircraft.)
Hey I remember that movie......
No no. This movie.
http://www.hairballmedia.com/langoliers_5.jpg
ForTehNguyen
03-14-14, 14:14
Here's What It Would Take To Steal A Boeing 777
(http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-to-steal-a-boeing-777-2014-3)
No no. This movie.
http://www.hairballmedia.com/langoliers_5.jpg
They eat up the old world to make way for the new world. Each "Earth"a we know it is made and then striped down for parts or something. The people within the worlds get transported unless you go through one of the rips in space time (pictured above). This is what a Langolier looks like:
http://www.joshshalek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/langoliers4.png
Found the answer to my question concerning cell phone tracking:
Cellular signals
Locating the hundreds of mobile phones that vanished along with the plane isn't as simple as activating a "Find My iPhone" app, especially considering the speed the plane was traveling, its altitude and the fact it was probably flying over water.
In addition, airplanes still require people to put phones in “airplane mode” that disables many of the radios on them, notably the cellular connections. And even if some left their phones active, they wouldn’t connect with a tower given the speeds planes travel at -- and the fact that there just aren't cell towers over the open ocean.
Here's What It Would Take To Steal A Boeing 777
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-to-steal-a-boeing-777-2014-3
Thought occurred to me while listen to talk radio this afternoon. IF this plane was hijacked and IF it landed successfully (ie undetected and intact), what would it take to say, refuel it, fly it to a terrorist nation, repaint it in national airline colors, refuel it again and fly it into the newly finished WTC? Call me crazy....
Thought occurred to me while listen to talk radio this afternoon. IF this plane was hijacked and IF it landed successfully (ie undetected and intact), what would it take to say, refuel it, fly it to a terrorist nation, repaint it in national airline colors, refuel it again and fly it into the newly finished WTC? Call me crazy....
What would it take...the biggest fail in the history of spying for us not to know.
black22rifle
03-14-14, 18:19
maybe... unless they let it slide to have a motive to go to war. Iran anyone?
Moose-Knuckle
03-14-14, 18:36
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/millenniumposter_zps3a8bad44.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/millenniumposter_zps3a8bad44.jpg.html)
Sharp Changes in Altitude and Course After Jet Lost Contact
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w522/mtjh45/adaddafd_zpsb6e2937a.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/mtjh45/media/adaddafd_zpsb6e2937a.jpg.html)
"SEPANG, Malaysia — Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 experienced significant changes in altitude after it lost contact with ground control, and altered its course more than once as if still under the command of a pilot, American officials and others familiar with the investigation said Friday.
Radar signals recorded by the Malaysian military appear to show the missing airliner climbing to 45,000 feet, above the approved altitude limit for a Boeing 777-200, soon after it disappeared from civilian radar and made a sharp turn to the west, according to a preliminary assessment by a person familiar with the data.
The radar track, which the Malaysian government has not released but says it has provided to the United States and China, then shows the plane descending unevenly to 23,000 feet, below normal cruising levels, as it approached the densely populated island of Penang, one of the country’s largest. There, the plane turned from a southwest-bound course, climbed to a higher altitude and flew northwest over the Strait of Malacca toward the Indian Ocean."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/asia/malaysia-military-radar.html?smid=tw-bna
So first it climbed, then rapidly descended, then apparently banked hard left...., could there have been some catastrophic mechanical or electronic or instrument failure, and the pilots were trying to turn around, but were basically flying blind?
What would it take...the biggest fail in the history of spying for us not to know.
We've done it before, I'm confident we can screw it up again.
We've done it before, I'm confident we can screw it up again.
Originally Posted by rushca01
What would it take...the biggest fail in the history of spying ( twice)for us not to know.
There I fixed it :)
Grand58742
03-14-14, 21:11
Apparently the Malaysians are now considering this just might, stress might, have some foul play involved...
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-14, 01:36
Official: Malaysian investigators conclude missing airliner hijacked
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-more-sinister-theories-still-no-answers-in-search-for-missing-plane/
Belmont31R
03-15-14, 01:50
So the PM said Kazakhstan? Now last known contact was 8:11am...almost 7hrs later than previously said.
So weird.
ForTehNguyen
03-15-14, 14:31
too soon?
<EDIT: With the status of ~239 human lives undetermined at this point, I would say so.>
SilverBullet432
03-15-14, 14:53
too soon?
<EDIT: With the status of ~239 human lives undetermined at this point, I would say so.>
wtf... How could some one post an ad like that?
CleverNickname
03-15-14, 16:06
Thought occurred to me while listen to talk radio this afternoon. IF this plane was hijacked and IF it landed successfully (ie undetected and intact), what would it take to say, refuel it, fly it to a terrorist nation, repaint it in national airline colors, refuel it again and fly it into the newly finished WTC? Call me crazy....
Just a guess, but if a flying bomb were the plan I think it would be a lot easier to buy an old airliner instead of steal one. For starters, there'd be nobody looking for you (or at least a whole lot less people looking for you) so your plan would be more likely to succeed.
Just a guess, but if a flying bomb were the plan I think it would be a lot easier to buy an old airliner instead of steal one. For starters, there'd be nobody looking for you (or at least a whole lot less people looking for you) so your plan would be more likely to succeed.
True perhaps. But the best place to "hide" something is in plain sight. Like I said, repaint it in the national airline colors of a country operating (a fair number are middle eastern) the 777, fly it into the airways and I'm guessing few would notice. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm crazy, but I'm sure a lot of folks never expected a co-ordinated hijacking of multiple airliners and them being flow into ground targets over a decade ago.
Grand58742
03-15-14, 17:38
True perhaps. But the best place to "hide" something is in plain sight. Like I said, repaint it in the national airline colors of a country operating (a fair number are middle eastern) the 777, fly it into the airways and I'm guessing few would notice. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm crazy, but I'm sure a lot of folks never expected a co-ordinated hijacking of multiple airliners and them being flow into ground targets over a decade ago.
It's not exactly an easy task to repaint an aircraft, especially one the size of a 777. Takes an indoor facility as well as a whole lot of detail work to cover up the windows, sensors, engines, etc. And lot of time. It isn't a basement Krylon job by any means. Furthermore, even within an airway, chances of being detected and intercepted for not having a proper flight plan, especially in a type of aircraft that's been "missing" goes up.
Best way of "hiding" an aircraft you plan on using as a manned guided missile is to buy one and hide it in plain sight as a registered commercial aircraft. Such as:
http://www.globalplanesearch.com/ilyushin/cargo/jets/utility/il_76.htm
And a Candid has a capability of carrying 40+ tons of cargo which makes for a pretty big bomb.
Official: Malaysian investigators conclude missing airliner hijacked
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-370-more-sinister-theories-still-no-answers-in-search-for-missing-plane/
The first thing taught in aircraft accident investigation school(well besides play nice with the NTSB so you dont get kicked off the party) is "you have to find the damn thing first".
How can the "investigation" be over and be decided "without a doubt" when you dont have the ****ing airplane yet? How has the "investigation" even begun?
These bastards are grasping at straws and have NO CLUE where this thing is.
They "say" it took off with xxx amount of fuel and "should" have run out of fuel after XX hours(or whatever), but a fully fueled 777 can fly for around 15 hours(give or take) which puts this airplane ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. So if they had WAY more fuel than everybody "thinks" due to a fueler being in on whatever shenanigans are going on, this airplane could be anywhere including the USA.
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-14, 19:51
The first thing taught in aircraft accident investigation school(well besides play nice with the NTSB so you dont get kicked off the party) is "you have to find the damn thing first".
How can the "investigation" be over and be decided "without a doubt" when you dont have the ****ing airplane yet? How has the "investigation" even begun?
These bastards are grasping at straws and have NO CLUE where this thing is.
They "say" it took off with xxx amount of fuel and "should" have run out of fuel after XX hours(or whatever), but a fully fueled 777 can fly for around 15 hours(give or take) which puts this airplane ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. So if they had WAY more fuel than everybody "thinks" due to a fueler being in on whatever shenanigans are going on, this airplane could be anywhere including the USA.
Pretty much.
davidjinks
03-15-14, 20:08
OR……..
Maybe everyone who is flapping their gums really knows what happened and could give a **** less.
Just spit balling there…
Pretty much.
Police are investigating the possibility that the pilot of missing Flight MH370 hijacked his own aircraft in a bizarre political protest.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581817/Doomed-airliner-pilot-political-fanatic-Hours-taking-control-flight-MH370-attended-trial-jailed-opposition-leader-sodomite.html
Over 600 runways were in range where a 777 could land.
http://project.wnyc.org/runways/
I know next to nothing about modern aviation. I wonder though, how tough would it be to clone a different commercial flight's transponder signals and then send up this thing in weaponized form over a city, and have it appear to all tracking it to be a different flight? I imagine it can't be that difficult to spoof with a government's help. Got my tin foil in a wrinkle just thinking about this kind of thing. ;)
All of the speculation by the media up to this point has served no purpose other than to upset the relatives of the passengers.
I know next to nothing about modern aviation. I wonder though, how tough would it be to clone a different commercial flight's transponder signals and then send up this thing in weaponized form over a city, and have it appear to all tracking it to be a different flight? I imagine it can't be that difficult to spoof with a government's help. Got my tin foil in a wrinkle just thinking about this kind of thing. ;)
a transponder on an airplane has 4 digits. You put in the code that ATC gives you for your flight. We get different ones every flight that is tied to our flight plan(which has out A/C info and what not in there). There is no spoofing of anything required. Find out the code of another flight, put it in, bam, ATC thinks you are a different flight. Same technology for the past 40+ years basically.
A transponder on an aircraft isnt some magic box like the media is making it out to be. Guess what, I turned my transponder off during flight today, and, oh, guess what again, im still here.
Every day in the USA there are thousands of aircraft flying around with THE SAME TRANSPONDER CODE of 1200 which is a VFR(visual flight) code. These people for the most part dont even talk to ATC except maybe to land at a controlled airport.
Eurodriver
03-15-14, 22:50
a transponder on an airplane has 4 digits. You put in the code that ATC gives you for your flight. We get different ones every flight that is tied to our flight plan(which has out A/C info and what not in there). There is no spoofing of anything required. Find out the code of another flight, put it in, bam, ATC thinks you are a different flight. Same technology for the past 40+ years basically.
A transponder on an aircraft isnt some magic box like the media is making it out to be. Guess what, I turned my transponder off during flight today, and, oh, guess what again, im still here.
Every day in the USA there are thousands of aircraft flying around with THE SAME TRANSPONDER CODE of 1200 which is a VFR(visual flight) code. These people for the most part dont even talk to ATC except maybe to land at a controlled airport.
I appreciate you bringing facts and experience to a thread that is sorely lacking both.
I appreciate you bringing facts and experience to a thread that is sorely lacking both.
I try. Ive almost thrown both my TV and laptop through a few windows over the past week listening to the absolute drivel that comes out of the mouths of some of these "experts" that the "media" has on their shows. "So what is your experience with aviation" "oh ive flown on commercial planes many times(as a passenger)" or "im a private pilot" which a private pilot doesnt know his ass from a hole in the ground ESPECIALLY about flying advanced jet aircraft i.e. a private pilot is a rating, not a "type" of pilot that fly's corporate jets or anything like that. A friend on my facebook said it very well today that we could have the Fox NFL hosts ruminating about this event and it would probably be better TV than what drivel has been on.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-16/malaysian-airlines-flight-370-complete-timeline-and-infographic
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/03/20140117_mh3701.png
SilverBullet432
03-16-14, 11:31
Watched NON-STOP last night. Made me think....
Finally, A Plausible Scenario Of What Happened To Flight 370
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-17/finally-plausible-scenario-what-happened-flight-370
Based on what has been reported so far, this theory seems to add-up.
montanadave
03-17-14, 13:03
Finally, A Plausible Scenario Of What Happened To Flight 370
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-17/finally-plausible-scenario-what-happened-flight-370
Based on what has been reported so far, this theory seems to add-up.
And you said Belloc's Law was silly.
And you said Belloc's Law was silly.
Actually, I said it was tiresome and derivative.
But if you have reasons why you think the scenario is not plausible, then just state those reasons.
Come on gentlemen, we all friends here. Tone it down a notch please. :)
Foxnews is running a report about the possibility of the plane being taken for future use as a weapon. That's some Hollywood level of drama. I seriously doubt this, but WOW... the planning and partnering that'd have to go into this level of a plot would be incredible.
Foxnews is running a report about the possibility of the plane being taken for future use as a weapon. That's some Hollywood level of drama. I seriously doubt this, but WOW... the planning and partnering that'd have to go into this level of a plot would be incredible.
In that part of the world, all it takes is money.
My biggest problem with the theory that the pilot took the plane in some kind of political protest is the lack of any radio transmissions or messages left behind making this clear. Perhaps he meant to at the conclusion of his plan, and the plan went wrong preventing him from declaring his purpose, but generally political protest requires some kind of publicity. Just disappearing into thin air does not get your point across to the masses.
Moose-Knuckle
03-17-14, 17:03
Heard today on the radio that the pilot's family moved out of the their prior to this flight. The pilot was at a protest just seven hours prior to taking off. He is linked to the Malaysia People’s Justice Party opposition group.
In that part of the world, all it takes is money.
I heard chatter about the flight path they took being programmed. If somehow you could get the critical crew to buy off on some crazy plan like this... (which I could not believe earlier)... then possibly they didn't end up in the bottom of the ocean.
But what of all the Chinos riding on the plane? If the have this plane safely stashed somewhere, this would be wilder than a Movie plot.
Grand58742
03-18-14, 10:21
Chinos?
Very stylish passengers.
Chinos?
Spanish... I have a lot of hispanic woven into my family... used to the spanish term for Asians.
Spanish... I have a lot of hispanic woven into my family... used to the spanish term for Asians.
I've heard of chinos pants ? I thought it was a type of cloth.
montanadave
03-18-14, 12:22
A possible scenario that seems to be gaining some traction: http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3
Interesting to read Chris Goodfellow's original post, subsequent comments, and criticisms on his Google thread: https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz
A possible scenario that seems to be gaining some traction: http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3
Interesting to read Chris Goodfellow's original post, subsequent comments, and criticisms on his Google thread: https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz
Seems like a plausible theory, but there are a couple problems I see with it right off the bat:
1. The transponder and comms were shut off at DIFFERENT times (12 min apart), not at once as if they pulled the busses.
2. The last transmission from the pilots came AFTER the acars and transponder were shut off. If there was a cockpit fire, why wasn't that mentioned in the transmission after they shut everything down??
3. If it was on autopilot, why were there major altitude fluctuations? I'm not a pilot, but I doubt the autopilot would take the plane up to 45,000 feet and then back down to 23,000 feet on autopilot
4. Why were there pings and engine data 5-6 hours after the last communication if they went for the island and crashed?
5. Why were there were no emergency phone calls made by a single person on the plane... If there was enough smoke in the cockpit to kill or incapacitate the pilots, you would think a flight attendant or some passengers would have smelled smoke and noticed multiple changes in flight path and someone would have tried to make a phone call.
There are just too many problems I see with this theory. It will be interesting to hopefully find out the actual truth, if we ever do.
Makes sense.... I wonder what the headings are in comparison to the oil rig worker or whatever he was, that saw a plane on fire. Would it be possible to starve a fire of O2 by climbing, hoping it would extinguish?
Something always goes wrong with these 'plans' but it seems like if this was an inside job there were either too many for it to go wrong or too few to as planned... Either way, it seems like an accident. I honestly don't think they find nor solve this any time soon.
montanadave
03-18-14, 13:43
Seems like a plausible theory, but there are a couple problems I see with it right off the bat:
1. The transponder and comms were shut off at DIFFERENT times (12 min apart), not at once as if they pulled the busses.
2. The last transmission from the pilots came AFTER the acars and transponder were shut off. If there was a cockpit fire, why wasn't that mentioned in the transmission after they shut everything down??
3. If it was on autopilot, why were there major altitude fluctuations? I'm not a pilot, but I doubt the autopilot would take the plane up to 45,000 feet and then back down to 23,000 feet on autopilot
4. Why were there pings and engine data 5-6 hours after the last communication if they went for the island and crashed?
5. Why were there were no emergency phone calls made by a single person on the plane... If there was enough smoke in the cockpit to kill or incapacitate the pilots, you would think a flight attendant or some passengers would have smelled smoke and noticed multiple changes in flight path and someone would have tried to make a phone call.
There are just too many problems I see with this theory. It will be interesting to hopefully find out the actual truth, if we ever do.
I think several of your points have been addressed by Goodfellow in his Google thread as new information has come to light. I certainly do not have the background or information to assess the feasibility of many of these conjectures. But that's never stopped me before. :haha:
The timing of the last verbal communication and the loss of transponder and ACARS data is apparently not fully nailed down, at least as of the Malaysian press conference today. There's been some backpedaling on the timeline:
09:53: Malaysian authorities confirm that the plane's Aircraft and Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was switched off at some point between 01:07 local time, "approximately when the aircraft reached the east coast of peninsular Malaysia, and the last ACARS transmission occurred - to 01:37, which was the next scheduled reporting time". (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26625473)
Goodfellow speaks to the altitude fluctuations in his thread:
Reports of altitude fluctuations. Well given that this was not transponder generated data but primary radar at maybe 200 miles the azimuth readings can be affected by a lot of atmospherics and I would not have high confidence in this being totally reliable. But let's accept for a minute he might have ascended to 45,000 in a last ditch effort to quell a fire by seeking the lowest level of oxygen. It is an acceptable scenario in my opinion. At 45,000 it would be tough to keep this aircraft stable as the flight envelope is very narrow and loss of control in a stall is entirely possible. The aircraft is at the top of its operational ceiling. The reported rapid rates of descent could have been generated by a stall and recovery at 25,000. The pilot may even have been diving the aircraft to extinguish flames. All entirely possible.
As for the flight path and length of flight. Again, from Goodfellow's Google thread:
The question of the time the plane flew on.
On departing Kuala he would have had fuel for Beijing and alternate probably Shanghai and 45 minutes. Say 8 hours. Maybe more. He burned 20-25% in first hour with takeoff, climb to cruise. So when the turn was made towards Langkawi he would have had six hours or more. This correlates nicely with the immarsat data pings being received until fuel exhaustion.
The apparent now known continued flight until TTFE time to fuel exhaustion only actually confirms to me the crew were incapacitated and the flight continued on deep into the south Indian ocean.
*It should be noted that there now exists a discrepancy between where a "ghost plane" would have flown if it simply overshot the target runaway (according to Goodfellow's hypothesis) and the northern and southern arcs calculated from the last satellite "ping." I don't know what to make of that.*
No phone calls? Here are some ideas on that angle: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/asia/questions-over-absence-of-cellphone-calls-from-missing-passengers.html?_r=0
Another interesting wrinkle is the unconfirmed reports of lithium-ion batteries being carried as cargo on this aircraft, which might point towards a possible ignition source for an inflight fire. And would also tie in with the early reports from an oil field platform worker who reported seeing a bright light in the sky.
All just guesswork at this stage of the game. And, without actually locating the aircraft, the spitballing is likely to continue for a good while.
The last person to speak to ground control did so after the in flight telemetry/comms were manually shut down. I believe he said '..and, goodnight'. Also, the course correction was manually entered into the flight computer.
At this point, certain aspects aren't really guesswork.
Good info Montanadave^^.
I guess the biggest concern I still have with the fire hypothesis is: If the pilot had time to fly up to 45,000 feet and back down, and even have the time to program into the computer a new flight path, why would any rational pilot or copilot not have 5 seconds in all of that to place a quick distress call indicating a fire? Why was the ACARS and transponder manually turned off (supposedly because of a fire according to his theory), and then the pilot calls in and calmly says, "all right, good night" as if nothing is wrong? And the cockpit of planes have oxygen masks. If the cabin started filling with smoke, the pilots could have easily donned oxygen masks. And if the fire was so bad that it consumed the electronics in the cockpit, I have a hard time believing the plane could have then flown for another 5 hours on its own...
Anyway, like you said, all people can do is guess at this stage. I'd like to hope it's not some form or terrorism or planned hijacking by the pilot(s) or others, but with the limited information we do have, it seems to be increasingly pointing towards deliberate hijack by the pilots. Just my .02
Lets get something straight about oxygen levels at altitude. They are THE SAME AS AT SEA LEVEL. You arent starving ANYTHING of oxygen at altitude. What changes is the PRESSURE of the air. Now we as humans need a certain pressure in the atmosphere for our lungs to absorb the oxygen(called the partial pressure), hence why on a jet at altitude we "pressurize" the plane. We arent "generating oxygen" or any other such non-sense. We are simply pressurizing the air so the human body can actually breath. When you "breath" you are expanding your diaphragm and causing a low pressure in your lungs in which air rushes in. If the outside pressure is to low the air can not "rush in". The opposite is actually true, in a decompression the air in your lungs gets sucked out. The masks in the back of the plane are useless in most scenarios. In the cockpit we have pressure flow masks that actually provide the positive pressure and force the o2 into our lungs so we can breath at altitude. Now while this is going on we are doing an emergency decent down to around 10k feet while everybody in the back is most likely passed out since the little o2 masks back there down provide pressure that is needed to breath. They are ok up to maybe 25k feet, but above that are worthless.
So with that said, a fire doesnt require O2 of a certain pressure to burn so climbing higher doesnt accomplish anything in that regard.
On to "we know the computers were re-programed" non-sense. HOW THE **** DO THEY KNOW THE COMPUTERS WERE REPROGRAMMED? THEY DONT HAVE THE PLANE so again, its a random ass guess, just like every other damn thing that the "authorities" and the "media" have been spouting off. NOBODY KNOWS. Sorry that is my accident investigator coming out again. Everybody needs to stop talking and find the damn plane before they say a single word. The USA has mostly learned this through the NTSB and their years and years of experience. The rest of the world seems to not understand this and needs to learn to STFU until you have facts that you can prove. Weve been investigating airplane accidents long enough that they can tell if your seat belt was buckled when the plane crashed. They can tell what materials were burning when the plane crashed. They can piece together miles of wiring after an electrical fire.
Lets get something straight about oxygen levels at altitude. They are THE SAME AS AT SEA LEVEL.
ALMOST correct:) The "percent" of oxygen is basically the same wherever there is air, i.e., at sea level or 35k. However, as the air has, in fact, become less dense at altitude - the total amount of O2 molecules per given volume of air decreases. This is what accounts for the drop in PO2 (partial pressure of oxygen). So - to use another non-technical term like "level" - there really is "less" O2 available for diffusion across the alveolar/capillary junction. If the plane were to maintain 35k while the masks dropped, the decreased total Patm would significantly diminish diffusion as well. Even if grandma had her open-loop/constant flow O2 with her for her emphysema - the significant drop in Patm would make it difficult to get sufficient oxygen into her blood - UNLESS she knew how to "power breathe" her O2 like professional free divers do! If you ever watch them - they inhale and then close their glottis while they perform a Valsalva maneuver. The increased intrapulmonary P will increased the PO2, thus facilitating some increase in the movement of O2 into the alveolar blood. - john
ALMOST correct:) The "percent" of oxygen is basically the same wherever there is air, i.e., at sea level or 35k. However, as the air has, in fact, become less dense at altitude - the total amount of O2 molecules per given volume of air decreases. This is what accounts for the drop in PO2 (partial pressure of oxygen). So - to use another non-technical term like "level" - there really is "less" O2 available for diffusion across the alveolar/capillary junction. If the plane were to maintain 35k while the masks dropped, the decreased total Patm would significantly diminish diffusion as well. Even if grandma had her open-loop/constant flow O2 with her for her emphysema - the significant drop in Patm would make it difficult to get sufficient oxygen into her blood - UNLESS she knew how to "power breath" her O2 like professional free divers do! If you ever watch them - they inhale and then close their glottis while they perform a Valsalva maneuver. The increased intrapulmonary P will increased the PO2, thus facilitating some increase in the movement of O2 into the alveolar blood. - john
Let me add the important part that I now realize I left out. The "air" at 35000(or 45000) feet and sea level is still roughty 80% CO2 and 20% O2, that doesnt change. These people are trying to say "there is less o2 at 35k feet" which is 100% un-true.
But the point I was really trying to make was climbing to 45k feet to "put a fire out" is 100% NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN since a fire isnt relying on a certain partial pressure to consume oxygen in which to burn.
... These people are trying to say "there is less o2 at 35k feet" which is 100% un-true. ...
Once again - actually, there really IS less O2 at altitude. The decreased density of the air is why you have less lift at altitude. And a constant 20% of a lesser amount of "air" (measured by a decreased Patm) means there are fewer molecules of O2 present. - john
Let me add the important part that I now realize I left out. The "air" at 35000(or 45000) feet and sea level is still roughty 80% CO2 and 20% O2, that doesnt change. These people are trying to say "there is less o2 at 35k feet" which is 100% un-true.
But the point I was really trying to make was climbing to 45k feet to "put a fire out" is 100% NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN since a fire isnt relying on a certain partial pressure to consume oxygen in which to burn.
And BTW - at altitude or sea level, the air is 80% Nitrogen (not CO2). Common mistake:) - john
Once again - actually, there really IS less O2 at altitude. The decreased density of the air is why you have less lift at altitude. And a constant 20% of a lesser amount of "air" (measured by a decreased Patm) means there are fewer molecules of O2 present. - john
Yes the molecular density goes down, however the PERCENTAGES dont change so you are arguing semantics here. Its not like you go up to 35k feet and suddenly you have 5% o2 instead of 20%. You STILL have 20% o2 its just the molecular density is lower and the partial pressure is lower.
However my point was a fire burns just fine at 35k feet, 45k feet, etc... so climbing higher to "put out a fire" doesnt work. You just need slightly less fuel for the same size fire.
And BTW - at altitude or sea level, the air is 80% Nitrogen (not CO2). Common mistake:) - john
yea my mistake. 80% Nitrogen, 19% o2 and 1% co2(or something around those numbers).
An Undocumented Worker
03-18-14, 17:22
This seems to have turned into the largest game of Marco-Polo in the history of the world.
This seems to have turned into the largest game of Marco-Polo in the history of the world.
Sorry - that would be mostly MY fault. I spend a good portion of my day discussing/arguing with a bunch of college students who don't have quite the right grasp on some scientific concepts - and that has obvioulsy bled over into my forum persona! Again - my apologies. Comms off for this topic. - john
PS - However, I am convinced that aliens abducted all aboard the plane and are slowly moving them to Area 51 via the Bermuda Triangle. (Damn students won't buy into that one either!!!!!)
An Undocumented Worker
03-18-14, 18:05
I'm not referring to you, just to this crazy fiasco involving the plane.
Spanish... I have a lot of hispanic woven into my family... used to the spanish term for Asians.
yes on the chino.
I will tell you what really happend to the 777. It was beamed on board the mother ship. That being said ,,will the media ever tell the truth?
A new article out on Fox is now saying the final calm "all right, good night" message from the pilot came 12 minutes AFTER the flight had diverted off the original flight path. If this is true it would back up the theory that the pilots intentionally diverted the plane and tried to cover it up.
It's hard to know what's true or not with all these new 'facts'
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/18/malaysia-airlines-search-cockpit-checked-in-12-minutes-after-course-was/
SilverBullet432
03-18-14, 22:54
Spanish... I have a lot of hispanic woven into my family... used to the spanish term for Asians.
Esos chinos se robaron el avion!!
Okay, bear with me here. The longer this plays out and the more "info" that comes out the higher the likelihood (IMO) that the plane is NOT at the bottom of the ocean. Perhaps someone wanted the plane, not the passengers. Follow these tidbits I'll throw out:
***Evasive manuevering, like dropping to 5K feet, is not the hallmark of a suicidal pilot....that plane could have been nosed over and crashed into the sea or Malaysia at any time.
***The pilot had downloaded info on his flight simulator at home about many airfields in the Adaman Island and surrounding areas.
***If they had the knowledge to turn off or override the transponder (black box) they could also gradually depressurize the cabin. Not a sudden depressurization but a gradual one so as to not attract the attention of the passengers. Basically slowly put everyone to sleep, and eventually death, by hypoxia while they (the pilots) wear their oxygen masks. I would wager it was done before the altitude drop (duh!). Remember, no ransom demands have been made in 11 days.
***The big search didn't happen that night. The plane very well could have been commandeered to some out of the way airfield and put in a hanger while it was still dark and before the frantic searching began.
***Now you have a huge jetliner, without any worries of passengers resisting or dialing cell phones because they're dead. Flight schedules are well known so you bide your time and slip into the jetstream identifying yourself as some other flight and head to your target.
Early on I would've looked at this possibility as VERY remote, almost impossible. Now not so much.
ETA: Israel is currently on alert for just this type of scenario. What do they know?
Belmont31R
03-18-14, 23:30
I have the opposite opinion in that the longer this goes on without the ac being found on land the more likely it is in the drink.
Negative. I think it's just the opposite. More likely in a hangar somewhere.
Negative. I think it's just the opposite. More likely in a hangar somewhere.
Either that or it went down over land. IF the plane were in the ocean, or even if it broke up at altitude over the ocean, there would be SOME kind of evidence floating around out there. Especially with 26 countries (currently) searching for 11 days.
OR, they are searching the wrong area. In all honesty, I doubt they'll ever find this plane. It's happened before...
Another thing that really blows my mind is why there are so many "facts" that keep changing. Like the "good night" call is now after the plane diverted it's planned flight path? With as many aircraft that are in the air at one time, you'd think they would know every detail from the start. But it could be the media hyping it up (what's new).
***Evasive maneuvering, like dropping to 5K feet, is not the hallmark of a suicidal pilot
Are these readings even accurate? People keep talking about it dropping from FL450 like a rock, and leveling off at FL250...but these are all readings from radar operating at its outermost fringes...
davidjinks
03-19-14, 10:06
Bottom line is, no one knows what the **** they know. All these talking heads are just puking up anything that'll give them air time.
The amount of disinformation that's out there is just hilarious.
My take on all of this: They (Meaning all parties involved) know exactly what has happened. They're running with this bullshit "Missing plane of the century hugest mostest craziest story thing in eons" because they don't want to broadcast the truth.
Can't even figure out which "facts" are facts. I heard today that the "all right" comm went out after the plane changed directions?
Who knows? Speculating with constantly changing facts is silly.
platoonDaddy
03-19-14, 11:27
If on ground, how in the hell are they going to get fuel for whatever is next?
I find it hard to believe our intelligence agencies doesn't know the status of the plane. Someone is leaking info to the NYT and I believe it is purposely trickling out by our government.
Tell me what y'all think about this guy's hypothesis. Very detailed and seems logical.
"Did Maylasian Airlines 370 Disappear Using Singapore Airlines SIA68 (Another 777)?"
"It became apparent as I inspected SIA68’s flight path history that MH370 had maneuvered itself directly behind SIA68 at approximately 18:00UTC and over the next 15 minutes had been following SIA68. All the pieces of my theory had been fitting together with the facts that have been publically released and I began to feel a little uneasy."
http://mh370shadow.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68
montanadave
03-19-14, 14:53
Tell me what y'all think about this guy's hypothesis. Very detailed and seems logical.
"Did Maylasian Airlines 370 Disappear Using Singapore Airlines SIA68 (Another 777)?"
"It became apparent as I inspected SIA68’s flight path history that MH370 had maneuvered itself directly behind SIA68 at approximately 18:00UTC and over the next 15 minutes had been following SIA68. All the pieces of my theory had been fitting together with the facts that have been publically released and I began to feel a little uneasy."
http://mh370shadow.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68
I read this hypothesis a couple of days ago and have since seen multiple discussions indicating that such a scenario would require very close formation flying (think in-flight refueling distances) to spoof the various radar facilities into "seeing" a single aircraft. Not an easy task made even more difficult with no communication between pilots.
I'll defer to the pilots on this one but it seems unlikely.
I read this hypothesis a couple of days ago and have since seen multiple discussions indicating that such a scenario would require very close formation flying (think in-flight refueling distances) to spoof the various radar facilities into "seeing" a single aircraft. Not an easy task made even more difficult with no communication between pilots.
I'll defer to the pilots on this one but it seems unlikely.
And at night???
One aspect that was discussed on the radio is most radar would not be "skin painting" all the time, but responding to the transponder signal. Don't know if that would make a difference in probability.
The article also mentioned the Malaysian pilot would use the Singapore Airlines transponder to maintain distance above/below. This being capable through the anti-collision systems that rely upon the transponders. The Malaysian plane would be sensing the active Singapore transponder, while the Malaysian plane (with inactive transponder) would be invisible to the Singapore planes collision system.
As mentioned, hopefully our pilot members will chime in on this article.
EDIT - From the article concerning above:
"It is my belief that MH370 likely flew in the shadow of SIA68 through India and Afghanistan airspace. As MH370 was flying “dark” without transponder / ADS-B output, SIA68 would have had no knowledge that MH370 was anywhere around and as it entered Indian airspace, it would have shown up as one single blip on the radar with only the transponder information of SIA68 lighting up ATC and military radar screens.
Wouldn’t the SIA68 flight have detected MH370? NO! The Boeing 777 utilizes a TCAS system for traffic avoidance; the system would ordinarily provide alerts and visualization to pilots if another airplane was too close. However that system only operates by receiving the transponder information from other planes and displaying it for the pilot. If MH370 was flying without the transponder, it would have been invisible to SIA68.
In addition, the TCAS system onboard MH370 would have enabled the pilot(s) to easily locate and approach SIA68 over the Straits of Malacca as they appeared to have done. The system would have shown them the flight’s direction of travel and the altitude it was traveling which would have enabled them to perfectly time an intercept right behind the other Boeing 777. Here is a picture of a TCAS system onboard a 777."
If on ground, how in the hell are they going to get fuel for whatever is next?
I doubt the pilot will use his credit card.... IF some government, say Iran, was "sponsoring" this, and IF same said government was interested in using this as a terrorist weapon (nah, never happen, right?), then there's the answer to where the fuel would come from.
I find it hard to believe our intelligence agencies doesn't know the status of the plane.
I'm sure the NSA has listened in on all the phone conversations and is just waiting to get a court order to act. (sarcasm)
IF they (or the CIA) "knows" something, I doubt it will get shared with the general public. Most likely they do not have the assets in place or the ability to access intel on such short notice in that end of the world. And satellites take time to reposition to be able to look for something like a missing plane and it would be mere chance if one just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
Someone is leaking info to the NYT and I believe it is purposely trickling out by our government.
Or they're doing what the NYT does best; speculate and talk out their collective rears. They need readership and this kind of continuing drama is ripe for exploitation.
And at night???
Maybe his garage flight simulator was for this instead of island landings?
Belmont31R
03-19-14, 22:41
BREAKING: Australian PM: 2 objects in search for Malaysian jet may have been found.
Belmont31R
03-19-14, 23:00
Australian gov will be making a statement at 1230AM ET about this. Strongest lead so far and not from a 2 bit Asian country.
platoonDaddy
03-20-14, 05:59
BREAKING: Australian PM: 2 objects in search for Malaysian jet may have been found.
Interesting that our best aircraft has been searching in the southern Indian Ocean and now this:
MILITARY AIRCRAFT from the US, Australia and New Zealand are searching for two objects spotted by satellites in the southern Indian Ocean that could be related to the missing Malaysia Airlines flight, Australian officials say.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/20/australian-pm-says-2-objects-in-search-for-malaysian-jet-may-have-been-found/
EDIT: Great article by KT, I love her reporting:
Missing Malaysia Airlines jet -- what have terrorists learned?
By K.T. McFarland
Published March 19, 2014
FoxNews.com
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/19/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-what-has-incident-has-taught-terrorists/
I dont buy the "flying in the other airplanes shadow" theory. Those people have obviously NEVER flown a plane. The follower plane would get the absolute SHIT beat out of it by wake turbulence and be extremely hard to control. The lead plan would also "feel" the other plane. If you have ever seen a show on aerial refueling you will see those guys talking about this and that is with planes nowhere near the size of the 777.
Ive been up at 35-37k feet and flown under a 747 or 777 that goes overhead and if your timing is just right you will feel the wake turbulence and thats just crossing paths, not attempting to fly under another aircraft for possibly hours at a time.
montanadave
03-20-14, 08:55
I dont buy the "flying in the other airplanes shadow" theory. Those people have obviously NEVER flown a plane. The follower plane would get the absolute SHIT beat out of it by wake turbulence and be extremely hard to control. The lead plan would also "feel" the other plane. If you have ever seen a show on aerial refueling you will see those guys talking about this and that is with planes nowhere near the size of the 777.
Ive been up at 35-37k feet and flown under a 747 or 777 that goes overhead and if your timing is just right you will feel the wake turbulence and thats just crossing paths, not attempting to fly under another aircraft for possibly hours at a time.
On another forum, two members (one a retired B-52 pilot and the other an air traffic controller) chimed in on this possibility. Both felt it was extremely unlikely.
Odd if the wreckage is from this plane. Why fly to such a remote part of the planet? It's like whomever was controlling the plane didn't want to be found.
montanadave
03-20-14, 09:15
I'm curious as to why these sub-hunter aircraft being used in the search wouldn't pick up signals from the "black boxes," if this is indeed the missing plane. Wouldn't the electronics be sensitive enough to detect these devices, even at depth? Or is this possibly one of those situations where "they" might already know, but are just staying mum so as not to give away technical information about military equipment and are awaiting visual confirmation by surface ships or close overflight photography?
montanadave
03-20-14, 09:17
Odd if the wreckage is from this plane. Why fly to such a remote part of the planet? It's like whomever was controlling the plane didn't want to be found.
Would lend credence to the "suicide by pilot" or "ghost plane" theories. Or both.
"No conventional scenario accounts for the methodical disabling of the communications systems, the bizarre altitude changes and professional navigation to way points, or the presumed turn south and a flight path that extended to at least 8:11 a.m."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-20/eliminate-flight-370-theories-start-ruler-pencil-and-map
"No conventional scenario accounts for the methodical disabling of the communications systems, the bizarre altitude changes and professional navigation to way points, or the presumed turn south and a flight path that extended to at least 8:11 a.m."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-20/eliminate-flight-370-theories-start-ruler-pencil-and-map
While I didnt read that article there are a lot of "guesses" that took place in the text you quoted. We still dont know if the "disabling" of the transponder and ACARS was intentional or part of a plane that was failing around them. The rest of it entails portions of the "radar" plot that they dont even know if it was the plane or not, so again, guesses. They "think" what they tracked on radar is the plane, but, again, without finding the plane, there is no proof one way or another. Same with how it was "navigated", who knows. And the altitude changes, again, who knows. Its all "ghost" radar data of something they "think" they are seeing.
How do they KNOW that one of the pilots re-programmed the FMS? They dont.
I have a theory AND its a good one: all of these idiots spouting off and "theorizing" are going to look like the idiots that they are when this plane is finally found. You arent hearing any theories from the NTSB or US Government about this, because we know to keep our damn traps shut until you can PROVE what you are saying with something verifiable.
TacMedic556
03-20-14, 15:31
This made me laugh today.
24549
platoonDaddy
03-20-14, 23:32
Theory 1001
Osama bin Laden met his virgins on May 2, 2011, maybe it will be used as a delivery systems for WMD to avenge said act.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
Fire starts, pilots divert to nearest airfield, fire burns up comm equipment, don't make it.
This made me laugh today.
24549
Same here man :lol:
platoonDaddy
03-21-14, 08:17
Great interview:
Chris McLaughlin, whose company is now serving as technical advisors on the investigation, said on “The Kelly File” that the company looked at data on its network and found the jet continued to transmit signals for hours after it lost contact with air traffic controllers. McLaughlin said there's no question the signals were from Flight 370.
“Just like a cell phone, each piece of equipment has its own SIM card and its own registration number,” McLaughlin said. “We are absolutely certain we were seeing the readings from this particular aircraft."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/20/satellite-company-official-speaks-out-on-tracking-missing-jet-after-it-lost/
I smell a made for tv movie in two years.
I smell a made for tv movie in two years.
We've seen it. It is called Lost.
I smell a made for tv movie in two years.
"Seconds from disaster" is probably already writing the beginning of their script...
montanadave
03-22-14, 09:01
I gotta believe hope is starting to dim of ever unraveling this riddle. Even if they manage to find some floating debris, it will have drifted so far that trying to zero in on the actual crash site will be virtually impossible. If this flight eventually ended up somewhere in the south Indian Ocean, it is literally in the aquatic equivalent of Bum**** Egypt which will pose immense oceanographical, meteorological, and logistical challenges to any kind of search and recovery efforts.
Belmont31R
03-22-14, 10:49
MORE: Malaysia says Chinese satellite has spotted object that might be jet; ships to investigate: http://t.co/t0KEMN80XX
I almost never watch TV. TV usually sucks I try to avoid it.
They're routing ping location equipment to the debris area now according to the Foxnews article.
Looks like they're pretty confident now that the plane crashed into the Indian Ocean. I wonder if we will ever find out the full story of what happened. Definitely sad for the friends and family of the people onboard
montanadave
03-24-14, 14:31
Interesting analysis here:http://sofrep.com/34084/alright-goodnight-malaysia-want-know-happened-flight-mh-370/
The author suggests the Malaysian government is attempting to cover up a politically-motivated hostage situation which went to shit. Read the last several paragraphs for the condensed "what I think happened."
Belloc linked a story that pulled at this thread a week ago.
This certainly looks like what would be left floating some 3 weeks after a commercial jetliner slammed into the ocean.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/27/article-2590532-1C9D619B00000578-537_634x752.jpg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2590532/Now-Thailand-says-satellites-spotted-300-floating-objects-South-Indian-Ocean-hunt-wreckage-flight-MH370.html
Belmont31R
03-27-14, 21:21
MORE: Search for Malaysia jet shifted about 700 miles to the north after new advice from investigators http://t.co/hxjzwA5OHk
davidjinks
03-27-14, 22:35
Deleted
They're searching an area the size of Texas, in stormy weather, with strong currents, three weeks later.
They're slackers!
SomeOtherGuy
03-28-14, 08:10
Those @#$#@ lazy searchers... they should be flying at Mach 5 and steaming their ships at 100 kts to search the ocean faster... all while using their X-ray vision to find the plane parts two miles below the ocean. Beatings will continue until morale improves!
The two real WTF issues are (1) the plane's course, and (2) Malaysia's slow and constantly changing information about it. I think the international search efforts are pretty impressive. This is the first time that some of the locating techniques have ever been used.
davidjinks
03-28-14, 11:04
Deleted
Belmont31R
04-05-14, 13:08
Bit of an update.
Australia: Electronic signals detected by Chinese ship consistent with aircraft black box: http://t.co/GTUY8g892c
Bit of an update.
Australia: Electronic signals detected by Chinese ship consistent with aircraft black box: http://t.co/GTUY8g892c
Funny how it's a Chinese ship that "found" the signal.
Wasn't it the Chinese that were originally accused of having the plane? I believe it was a Vietnamese news affiliate that originally aired that the plane landed in China
I still don't understand why we don't know where these people are. I work in the cellular industry, 90% of phones have active gps. The cell carrier can ping the phone at anytime and find its location. And they already proved many of the phones were on long after the plane went missing, one reportedly send a txt. This story is BS and that plane landed somewhere.
Belmont31R
04-05-14, 15:33
Funny how it's a Chinese ship that "found" the signal.
Wasn't it the Chinese that were originally accused of having the plane? I believe it was a Vietnamese news affiliate that originally aired that the plane landed in China
I still don't understand why we don't know where these people are. I work in the cellular industry, 90% of phones have active gps. The cell carrier can ping the phone at anytime and find its location. And they already proved many of the phones were on long after the plane went missing, one reportedly send a txt. This story is BS and that plane landed somewhere.
Most location data uses a cellular signal. Phones are GPS receivers not transmitters. Something like Apple's Find My Phone requires a data connection to send the location.
The cell carriers can get a location based off what tower the phone is connected to. They can't really remote into the phone and have that kind of data sent to them.
Another example is Google Maps. The app will pop up a message that location accuracy will improve if you turn wifi on.
But once the phone is out of cellular or wifi coverage there's no real way to track them. Cellular coverage is also limited by altitude. Cell signals from towers hug the ground and are not like a ham radio which can bounce along the ground and atmosphere to talk to people over the horizon.
Most location data uses a cellular signal. Phones are GPS receivers not transmitters. Something like Apple's Find My Phone requires a data connection to send the location.
The cell carriers can get a location based off what tower the phone is connected to. They can't really remote into the phone and have that kind of data sent to them.
Another example is Google Maps. The app will pop up a message that location accuracy will improve if you turn wifi on.
But once the phone is out of cellular or wifi coverage there's no real way to track them. Cellular coverage is also limited by altitude. Cell signals from towers hug the ground and are not like a ham radio which can bounce along the ground and atmosphere to talk to people over the horizon.
But some of the carriers have admitted the phone were receiving signal and we're able to receive calls. If that's the case then they can figure out what tower that phone pinged off of. And get a general area and time stamp.
And it still doesn't explain the guy sending Txts.
Something tells me we're not going to be told the truth now or ever.
The ping is coming from 25S - 100E which is right where they have been looking. It's not like people are changing their story. Somebody will find it. One way or another.
I really don't understand the utter fascination with this story. The plane crashed in a remote area of the Pacific Ocean and the Pacific is pretty large.
Some of the circumstances are a bit peculiar, but in no way should they be fueling all of the ridiculous, conspiratorial theories that have spawned as a result of this tragedy.
They will find the plane and we'll have more answers. I doubt anyone will have all of the answers in the end.
montanadave
04-05-14, 20:20
I really don't understand the utter fascination with this story. The plane crashed in a remote area of the Pacific Ocean and the Pacific is pretty large.
Some of the circumstances are a bit peculiar, but in no way should they be fueling all of the ridiculous, conspiratorial theories that have spawned as a result of this tragedy.
They will find the plane and we'll have more answers. I doubt anyone will have all of the answers in the end.
Amelia Earhart, anyone?
Amelia Earhart, anyone?
Touche'!
Seems a plane crashing into the ocean makes a mess lots of oil fuel and other floating stuff. I still wonder if the plane was stolen by some government to be used is some nefarious deed.
Something tells me we're not going to be told the truth now or ever. Are we ever told any truth?
I've heard that they narrowed down the search area to size roughly the size of North Carolina. Then, a cyclone blew through the neighborhood since the plane crashed.
I am completely not surprised they have not found a fuel spill, or anything else. I do think there were shenanigans in getting the plane to it's current location, though.
SilverBullet432
12-27-14, 22:39
Not MH, but another one.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/27/world/asia/airasia-missing-plane/index.html?c=homepage-t
Holy crap, I forgot all about this. Did they find this yet or are they even still looking?
SilverBullet432
12-27-14, 22:53
Still looking
Holy crap, I forgot all about this. Did they find this yet or are they even still looking?
This is a different plane. It happened yesterday not in March.
The south Asia oceans has become the new Bermuda Triangle.
This is a different plane. It happened yesterday not in March.
The south Asia oceans has become the new Bermuda Triangle.
I know. When I saw his post about the new plane, it reminded me of the first one in the OP. That's what I was referring to.
Averageman
12-28-14, 11:08
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/27/missing-airasia-flight_n_6385946.html
An AirAsia flight traveling from Surabaya, Indonesia, to Singapore with 162 people on board lost contact with air traffic control early Sunday morning, the airline confirmed. Indonesia quickly launched a search to locate the missing plane, but by Sunday night, most search and rescue operations were halted for the day, the plane still unaccounted for.
Flight QZ 8501 -- an Airbus 320-200 -- lost communication with Indonesia's Surabaya Juanda International Airport at 7:24 Singapore time on Sunday morning, the airline said. The plane "was requesting deviation due to enroute weather before communication with the aircraft was lost," AirAsia said in a statement.
I'm wondering what problems we will find when these flights are finally located.
Any microchip majority shareholders onboard this one?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The alien conspiracy continues!
I was going to make the "Godzeera" joke, but then I thought about all the families that must be absolutely distraught. I hope they find peace.
Ok, I've never been a conspiracy type but three flights now have vanished around Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim area... just sayin'
Ok, I've never been a conspiracy type but three flights now have vanished around Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim area... just sayin'
7500 man.
My money is still on aliens.
Over 40 bodies found with debris. No aliens.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11771229/MH370-wreckage-found-on-Reunion-matches-Malaysia-Airlines-flight.html
A French aviation expert believes he may have found the wreckage of MH370 – the Malaysia Airlines flight which disappeared off the coast of Malaysia in March 2014.
Xavier Tytelman, a former military pilot who now specialises in aviation security, was contacted on Wednesday morning by a man living on the island of Reunion, in the Indian Ocean. The man sent Mr Tytelman a series of photos showing wreckage of a plane, which the Frenchman said could possibly be the missing jet.
Pictures in the article.
SilverBullet432
07-29-15, 18:22
I wonder how far it has drifted over a year
I wonder how far it has drifted over a year
That island is by Madagascar. So I guess all the way across the Indian Ocean.
SilverBullet432
07-29-15, 18:34
Thats a good ways right there.
I wonder how far it has drifted over a year
I think it's 4000 miles from where they thought things may be. The only thing it may satisfy is that it did go down in water.
SilverBullet432
07-29-15, 20:36
pretty much
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