View Full Version : Why I think the Smith and Wesson J Frame is a good Sole Self-Defense Weapon.
After following the thread that Greg Bell started, "S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon," I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.
Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn't shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.
Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.
I can't argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don't want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.
The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.
I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.
These are just my thoughts.
So you think ammunition capacity determines marksmanship? :confused:
I'll tell all of my 0317 buddies to only use bolt guns from now on. And everyone down load AR to 1 round that way they will be sure to hit the target.
Not for everyone. I do think that I am more aware of my capacity limitation and I concentrate harder on my marksmanship skills. Like I said these are just my thoughts and this does not apply to everyone. Please don’t read this and think I am bashing anyone who does not use a J Frame.
Voodoo_Man
03-08-14, 09:46
Not to start this thread on a downward spiral, but I have to post the following:
Capacity = Time in Fight
Accuracy = Determining Factor
Having said that I have a 642. Would I carry that over my G19 at any given moment? No.
There is a time and place for revolvers, and unless you want a handicap going to into a deadly force confrontation there is simply no reason to carry one daily.
operator81
03-08-14, 10:04
Food for thought. It seems you're counting on being attacked by a lone assailant up close where sighted fire isn't important. You said you're in Lansing, MI, which has a large black population. Given the poorer areas around there, the likelihood of you being attacked by a black male are higher than being attacked by a white. We'll add Hispanic in with the blacks as well. Typically (based on national crime statistics) white males will carry out violent attacks alone whereas blacks and Hispanics attack in groups of 2 or more. And in typical predator/prey fashion, they often approach/attack in a V or L-formation, so now you're having to direct fire two different directions, to 2 or more subjects with 5 rounds in a J-frame. Not good.
I've been a LEO for 7+ years. I'm a firearms instructor and have taught force on force. I was in a fatal OIS this last June. I won, he lost. I had 60 rounds hanging from my AR and I didn't need them all, but I thank God they were there just incase. As for keeping track of your rounds, I fired nearly double what I thought I did. Shootings are fluid and dynamic. Load 5 rounds in your pistol and do some force on force training. It won't go well for you.
Do what you want to protect yourself and your family. My family deserves the best protection I can give them, I pack accordingly. I'm willing to bet if you left your house knowing you were going to be in an armed confrontation you wouldn't be carrying that .38. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
After following the thread that Greg Bell started, "S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon," I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.
Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn't shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.
Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.
I can't argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don't want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.
The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.
I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.
These are just my thoughts.
Trying to understand the logic here but just can't. I was a cop for 26 years and the departments I was in went from revolvers to semi-autos and for the life of me I can't think of one good reason to go backwards to a revolver. I suppose in a one-on-one situation the limited capacity of a wheelgun would be enough but facing multiple assailants? Laying down cover fire? These are just two areas where a revolver would be a hindrance, not an asset.
Sorry, to each his own but I just can't go with this.
The J-frame is a viable defensive tool. Not unlike other systems, to get the most out of it you must understand its strengths and limitations thoroughly and practice regularly. A system-specific course of instruction is well advised. Among the leaders, check out the work of Michael de Bethencourt and Claude Werner.
I attended and reviewed a weekend with MdB here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140643-AAR-Michael-de-Bethencourt-snubtraining-com-Folding-Knife-Snub-Courses-10-11-13-13
I hope to be able to get to Claude's course soon as well.
I believe the post by 'operator81' summed it rather well. It's 2014, and with the various high caliber 9mm, .45, .40 ammo and semi auto pistols available, the fact that some are still seriously advocating a five shot snubby as a primary defense weapon seems a bit limited to me. To each his own, and given an individual's area and requirements a revolver may be all one needs, or maybe just a pocketknife may suffice, or a hiking stick, whistle ?
I've been a LEO for 7+ years. I'm a firearms instructor and have taught force on force. I was in a fatal OIS this last June. I won, he lost. I had 60 rounds hanging from my AR and I didn't need them all, but I thank God they were there just incase. As for keeping track of your rounds, I fired nearly double what I thought I did. Shootings are fluid and dynamic. Load 5 rounds in your pistol and do some force on force training. It won't go well for you.
Good points.
Likewise, I was involved in an OIS last year. My incident could just as well have occurred off-duty; there was nothing about it that restricted this scenario to being confined to the on duty cop world. Bottom line, the guy took a number of rounds, from 3 different weapons (2 handguns, 1 AR), and still advanced on me before going down. The 2 handguns involved both shot over the capacity of a 5 shot snubbie. This incident occurred in close range; not quite fight in a phone booth range, but very close.
Bottom line: don't count on only needing 5 rounds, or being attacked by 1 assailant who quits the fight after taking a round or two, or neatly falling into the parameters of what the FBI or whoever puts out about ranges or numbers of rounds fired.
It's not only your life, but the lives of those around you, who are affected by your choices.
Stay safe brother.
For 95% of us, accuracy degradation in a fight WILL happen. How much is a matter of training and mindset. I don't look at capacity as the determining factor, but as vodoo man so eloquently put it, capacity = time in fight. Going a bit further, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to handle at speed. When I pull out of the garage, I'm acutely aware of what I'm carrying and what I know I'm capable of with that particular sidearm. This factors into my defense capability mindset, which is important should you need to employ the OODA Loop under pressure.
All things being equal, more is more. :)
Yes, all good feedback and I see the thought process behind the above posts. I am not ignorant to the fact that there are limitations to a small revolver. However, the best gun to have in a gun fight is the one you bring. Even the most diehard guys sometimes leave there guns at home or in the glove box. If you choose to carry a small revolver you must adapt your tactics accordingly.
Operator81,
If I lived in Lansing which I don't, I would definitely carry something else...I normally wear home and back to work my Glock 21sf along with my 340. The likelihood of being in an armed confrontation within the small community where I live is very minimal.
fwiw/imho:
We don't get to choose who/what/where or the #(s) of those we will have to deal with.
People are Humans, Humans are Animals. Predators from our Human Average weight/size & down Hunt in Packs. No one wants to call quits easily, including the smallest example of our kind.
If you can carry; CARRY.
Agree: Anything is better than nothing
BUT: Better to have & not need, Than Need & Not Have.
- Personally I feel "light" with anything less than 10+1 w/ Min. 1x 15 Spare. More #(s) in my pack "family/friends": Heavier I get
Unfortunately:
- Bad Guys Carry Too
- Bad guys are NOT DUMB & Good Guys don't always acknowledge this.
- They don't drop like a steel popper. Humans are a VERY determined species, no matter what the weight. What most think is not "humanly" possible gets challenged everyday.
I have friends/family/etc. that tell me I'm "over" prepared. Didn't know there was such a thing.
Good Guy vs Wont Stop Bad Guy:
http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
I carry a J frame more often than anything else. I feel adequately armed doing so.
Based on my lifestyle I figure the odds I'll need a gun at all on any given day are 1:10,000.
I'd place the odds that the situation would be such that a Glock 19 (which I also carry, usually when traveling to a city of any size) would save my life and a J-frame wouldn't at about 1:100.
One in a million? I'll take that bet, since I put my life at greater risk each time I step into the shower.
Whenever I read Internet pissing contests over what one should carry I can't decide whether to laugh or cry. Are we on the same side or not?
In any case, I solemnly promise to never, ever force anyone to carry a small revolver.
A gun is a tool . A half inch wrench won't do well tightening a 1 inch nut. I carry a 442 and it is fine. How many gun battles we been in lately cruising the city and county as a non cop? If I were expecting big trouble I would pack a semi and the goodies for all the proper reasons.
Off Duty cop shoots assailant. Others flee
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79252503/
With a five shot gun, what's your out if BG's 2 friends decide to stick around? Entirely within the realm of possibility, without bordering on the absurd.
Also, look for the "Tactical Placekicker" article on modernserviceweapons.com. More good food for thought.
Sometimes, the snubbie is the ideal carry gun, but this is typically when dress and decorum won't allow you to carry bigger. Many of us understand this. Between the full sized G21 and the snubbie, there's a lot of options. If that's all you have, then that's all you have, but to
A) expect that your marksmanship, based on knowing and recalling that you only have 5 rounds, will prevail under stress,
B) expect that your encounter will be at close contact, involving 1 assailant,
C) expecting that 5 rounds is enough for your scenario, factoring in a dedicated assailant, multiple attackers, and accuracy diminished by stress,
Is shortsighted.
But yes. Better than nothing.
Somebody please cite a defensive gun use by a civilian where the good guy was carrying a J-frame, fired five shots, and died.
A J-frame is far from best tool for engaging bad guys intent on doing you harm; I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. *But* it's a terrific gun to wear on your belt or on in your pocket while you go about the daily business of living.
If it's not the gun for you, great. But evangelism by way of worst-case scenario isn't necessary.
I also have a 642 that I carry in tshirt and shorts weather. A +p loaded .38 special in the pocket beats my CZ Po1 or 1911 on the bed side table every time. Reloads X2 on speed strips in the other pocket. PS this little gun with +p's sounds like the hand of god itself. I also take my surroundings into effect. I live in small town Iowa, around my hometown of 250 we have little crime other than meth heads attempting to steal gas or tools to sell for drugs or to get their hoopties into Des Moines to buy drugs so for my setting the little .38 is appropriate. If we go to Des Moines ,Iowa City or Omaha you can bet I'm packing more heat. I should also add that I am a 13 year LEO Veteran former Firearms/Tactical Firearms and defensive tactics instructor. I recently had to give up my shield due to my knees deteriorating to the point that I felt I was becoming a detriment to the department. The average citizen is not going to actively advance on a armed subject and will use their pistol in a strictly defensive mode as a last ditch option so under those criteria is a 5 shot revolver as much of a liability? I dont think it is.
To each their own, but my snubbie is a BUG only. It may be more than statistics suggest I'll ever need, but I refuse to gamble my life or that of my loved ones on stats. This has nothing to do with how much I train or my accuracy with the weapon system.
Hell, I'm not comfortable carrying an 8 or 9 shot handgun as a primary sidearm on duty. Off duty I see no reason to do so either. As was mentioned - off duty I'm even more hosed if something happens. No partner, no radio, no armor, etc.
Of course I'm that guy who makes fun of my coworkers who carry only a pocket gun as a primary, or a full size gun without a spare magazine (we work plan clothes). I also bring a rifle to any operation when possible irrespective of the mope's criminal history.
Bottom line - do what you feel is appropriate, but if I get called home tomorrow it won't be for lack of returning fire. We seldom get to choose the time or place that things go sideways.
... I refuse to gamble my life or that of my loved ones on stats...
I've heard this said many times.
I've never believed it. Anyone who truly lived this way would be paralyzed into inaction.
I've heard this said many times.
I've never believed it. Anyone who truly lived this way would be paralyzed into inaction.
It's a balancing act to be sure. You can't live a life without risk. But in my experience it doesnt take much more effort to conceal a G19 than it does any other handgun. Why would I not carry the G19 (longer sight radius, more grip area, better sights, better trigger, easier/faster reloads, easier to carry spare ammo, and more than triple the capacity)?
To each their own, but my snubbie is a BUG only. It may be more than statistics suggest I'll ever need, but I refuse to gamble my life or that of my loved ones on stats. This has nothing to do with how much I train or my accuracy with the weapon system.
Hell, I'm not comfortable carrying an 8 or 9 shot handgun as a primary sidearm on duty. Off duty I see no reason to do so either. As was mentioned - off duty I'm even more hosed if something happens. No partner, no radio, no armor, etc.
Of course I'm that guy who makes fun of my coworkers who carry only a pocket gun as a primary, or a full size gun without a spare magazine (we work plan clothes). I also bring a rifle to any operation when possible irrespective of the mope's criminal history.
Bottom line - do what you feel is appropriate, but if I get called home tomorrow it won't be for lack of returning fire. We seldom get to choose the time or place that things go sideways.
Agree with above.
I feel there is a difference between armed citizen and off-duty LEO that may feel compelled to act due to oath of office (active shooter event while off-duty).
The best scenario is "good witness" if that options available.
I like the J, but as a back-up to my G23.
I'm a big fan of dressing around the gun and equipment (a large shirt can hide a lot of gear). I've been carrying a fullsize gun for 24 years and it's never really bothered me. It's just something i've gotten use to.
This is a personal choice and everyone needs to make there own evaluation. Most LEO's are sworn peace officers 24/7, so that may play into your off-duty choice.
Say I'm at my local grocery store and an active shooter event occurs, I'd definetly want to show-up with enough gun.
...in my experience it doesnt take much more effort to conceal a G19 than it does any other handgun...
And there it is. The difference of opinion lies in whether that "not much" more effort is worth the benefit.
This is an individual call. For me, it sometimes is...but often isn't.
I have no problem with what anyone chooses to carry; it's their life. I do, however, have a problem with those who try to make the argument that those who choose to carry smaller, less capable firearms are foolish. You are certainly free to hold that *opinion*, but please don't state it as fact, because the facts don't support this.
But I think I'm talking in circles, so I'll shut up now.
And there it is. The difference of opinion lies in whether that "not much" more effort is worth the benefit.
This is an individual call. For me, it sometimes is...but often isn't.
I have no problem with what anyone chooses to carry; it's their life. I do, however, have a problem with those who try to make the argument that those who choose to carry smaller, less capable firearms are foolish. You are certainly free to hold that *opinion*, but please don't state it as fact, because the facts don't support this.
But I think I'm talking in circles, so I'll shut up now.
Which is why in my first post I stated - "To each their own" and "Bottom line - do what you feel appropriate."
It is without a doubt the choice of the individual. But I reserve the right to make fun of people who think a pocket gun (whether a snubbie or a 32/380) is enough. To be fair I am mostly talking about LEO's more than private citizens.
After following the thread that Greg Bell started, "S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon," I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.
Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn't shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.
Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.
I can't argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don't want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.
The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.
I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.
These are just my thoughts.
I didn't read in any of the above why you feel the 340 is a superior choice for CCW/SD. Adequate, depending on ammo choice, yes. Preferable to other options? No. The bold part makes no sense to me honestly. As an LEO, you know 5 or 50, you will have to account for those rnds, and i'm not aware of anyone with training and knowledge (vs thug or general idiot) who will just throw rnds out for the hell of it because they have more than 5 say.
If you have 5, and "they" have 8, or 10, or 17+, "they" are at a distinct advantage over you, all things being equal. Obviously, there's a lot of potential variables to that last statement, but no one ever complained of having too much ammo in a gun fight as far as I know and I can't imagine a more horrible feeling than expecting a bang and getting a click in such a situation.
Changing topics a tad, it's my understanding that the terminal ballistics of the .357 from a snub is minimal to modern quality .38 or .38+p, and the flash, recoil, and speed of follow up shots, etc makes the, makes the .38 the better choice in a snub revolver.
My understanding: being good with a revolver is a unique skill set. Being good with a snub revolver another skill set that overlaps, and being good with a .357 snub, something that takes a lot of practice and time. I don't posses that skill set personally and really don't enjoy .357 snub revolvers and thus, will practice and train far less with it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-09-14, 18:17
Obviously, I think there is a lot to be said for the J-frame as a sole handgun. Basically, my thinking revolves around the fact that the vast majority of folks are not really carrying full time, or even as often as they could. During the first few years most guys are pretty hung ho. I remember carrying a Sig 229 and thinking it was "compact." I remember carrying Sig 220s, full size 1911s, etc. But I noticed I was leaving them behind more and more. I ran into a couple of situations where I wasn't armed and, if things had gone a little bit differently, I would have been up the creek. So I stated looking around. I was not a fan of revolvers. Coming up in the 80s, the wonder nine was the in gun and the 1911 was "on the way out" (sound familiar??). Very few folks took revolvers seriously. Colt quit making them, etc. I started carrying a Kahr PM9 and it was pretty great. It conceals int he pocket well and is pretty light--but it isn't the most reliable. Eventually, I had a buddy who carried a Scandium .357 and I shot it a bit. I thought, "now there is a terrible gun." It kicked hard, was hard to shoot, and only had 5 rounds. But more and more I realized, a gun that small and light, I can carry at all times. The final piece of the puzzle was the excellent way laser grips work with the J-frame. It basically makes the J-frame the hammer of God in your average parking lot low-light encounter.
Ultimately, if you are REALLY, REALLY carrying a combat autoloader with you at all times then by all means you have a better gun. But for most folks, an air weight J-frame is the only way they can really be armed at all times (or some other pocket gun).
Obviously, I think there is a lot to be said for the J-frame as a sole handgun. Basically, my thinking revolves around the fact that the vast majority of folks are not really carrying full time, or even as often as they could. During the first few years most guys are pretty hung ho. I remember carrying a Sig 229 and thinking it was "compact." I remember carrying Sig 220s, full size 1911s, etc. But I noticed I was leaving them behind more and more. I ran into a couple of situations where I wasn't armed and, if things had gone a little bit differently, I would have been up the creek. So I stated looking around. I was not a fan of revolvers. Coming up in the 80s, the wonder nine was the in gun and the 1911 was "on the way out" (sound familiar??). Very few folks took revolvers seriously. Colt quit making them, etc. I started carrying a Kahr PM9 and it was pretty great. It conceals int he pocket well and is pretty light--but it isn't the most reliable. Eventually, I had a buddy who carried a Scandium .357 and I shot it a bit. I thought, "now there is a terrible gun." It kicked hard, was hard to shoot, and only had 5 rounds. But more and more I realized, a gun that small and light, I can carry at all times. The final piece of the puzzle was the excellent way laser grips work with the J-frame. It basically makes the J-frame the hammer of God in your average parking lot low-light encounter.
Ultimately, if you are REALLY, REALLY carrying a combat autoloader with you at all times then by all means you have a better gun. But for most folks, an air weight J-frame is the only way they can really be armed at all times (or some other pocket gun).
The .22 on your person is always more effective for SD than the .44 mag you left at home. But, as they say, a gun is not supposed to be comfortable as it is comforting. Thus, the balance between what you're actually gonna carry and what's the "best" choice. I CCW a government 1911 where where it was legal, 7 days a week for a decade, and a Ti framed commander for many more years. The M&P FS 9mm, same now. I like the weight and feel of a full framed gun personally and will take what ever advantages that gives me. Your and others mileage may vary.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-09-14, 18:56
That is because you are a bad MF. I, as a lazy man, usually carry my J-frame. When it is cold enough for a real jacket I do strap on the Wilson.
Any handgun is a compromise and no handgun is going to gaurentee your survival in a gun fight. Most cops carry a large capacity pistol because they have to put themselves into the line of fire and having 45+ rounds at their disposal at a moments notice can be what saves their lives. After giving up my badge I had to re evaluate my main mission for carrying concealed. It is no longer my mission to protect and serve the public at large. My main mission is protecting myself and my loved ones. When I can I carry a large handgun IWB either a Custom Springfield 1911 full sized or more recently a custom CZ P01. Both are fairly easy to conceal and provide all of the security I could hope for in a handgun with 2 extra mags. But when the circumstances call for a more concealeable firearm IE shorts and t shirt which are my preferred dress for summer the little smith lends itself better and at least I feel competent enough with it to provide a feel of some protection. I do train with my pistols regularly and feel confident in my ability to do what I have to to survive.
That is because you are a bad MF. I, as a lazy man, usually carry my J-frame. When it is cold enough for a real jacket I do strap on the Wilson.
I wish that were the case my friend, but it is not. No "i'm a bad MF 'cause I carry X" was intended. Just that I personally don't mind it and actually prefer the weight being there, etc. Two, I fully recognize it's simply not an option for some depending on employment, clothes they need to wear and other factors. I, being a self employed idiot, have the ability to where what i wish 98% of the time, making it much easier for me to dress around the CCW vs make it fit my needed wardrobe. I also (as mentioned above) and not very good with a snub revolver, much less a .357 snub revolver. On those rare occasions I can't CCW my normal gun, I do have compact options.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-09-14, 19:07
Here is my new formulation: "The J-Frame is the best all-around gun for lazy folks like me."
Here is my new formulation: "The J-Frame is the best all-around gun for lazy folks like me."
And me.
I think we should shoot the J frame in the Hackathorn class next month. How about it counselor?
I don't agree at all that and a handgun isn't supposed to be comfortable. I actually dispise that saying. Reality is, majority of folks simply won't carry one if it isn't.
Here is my new formulation: "The J-Frame is the best all-around gun for lazy folks like me."
I went a while with just a 340 M&P. It went everywhere with me and at times was the only gun I kept at home. At times, I practiced quite a bit with it.
Hands down the jframe is a great gun and hands down modern semi-autos are even better.
I really have to say the VG2 broke my habit of relying on my jframe. Carrying G17 or G19 is oddly more comfy than my jframe holsters.
I don't agree at all that and a handgun isn't supposed to be comfortable. I actually dispise that saying. Reality is, majority of folks simply won't carry one if it isn't.
What the majority of folks will do has no bearing on what they should do. Exercise is essential for health and wight loss, but the majority of folks won't do it because it's too hard. If it's all about comfort, then carry a .22. As I said, a balance between CCW something that's going to meet minimum acceptable standards of SD that your likely going to actually carry.
I don't mind FS guns. Prefer them actually, and will put up with the discomfort for the added advantage of them, which I find comforting.
Doc Safari
03-10-14, 10:28
Ultimately, if you are REALLY, REALLY carrying a combat autoloader with you at all times then by all means you have a better gun. But for most folks, an air weight J-frame is the only way they can really be armed at all times (or some other pocket gun).
I am with you 150,000% on this one. I live in the desert southwest. Although the thought of carryin' a hi-cap autoloader with two spare hi-cap mags would be the ideal, it just isn't practical to try to conceal that under a t-shirt and shorts in the middle of 105+ degree June or July weather.
Better to have the five-shot gun on your hip than the tacticool whatever sitting in the vehicle baking while you get robbed.
I agonized over this for too many years, but not anymore.
I am with you 150,000% on this one. I live in the desert southwest. Although the thought of carryin' a hi-cap autoloader with two spare hi-cap mags would be the ideal, it just isn't practical to try to conceal that under a t-shirt and shorts in the middle of 105+ degree June or July weather.
Better to have the five-shot gun on your hip than the tacticool whatever sitting in the vehicle baking while you get robbed.
I agonized over this for too many years, but not anymore.
I don't have any problems concealing a M&P9C IWB with a t-shirt in 105+ degree weather for 3 months. I do wear long pants and a belt though, but I'm used to that since I have to at work anyway.
Colors and fabric choice of your t-shirt REALLY help in concealment. A thin white shirt would be a poor choice, but unfortunately going heavier weight and/or darker colors doesn't help when it's super hot outside. Imo, a shirt with white/light colored front/back, black side panels (to conceal 3/9 o'clock carry) with a breathable material (like under armor), and a pattern of some sort on the front to draw the eyes would be ideal. Misdirection is your friend. Also, wear a ridiculous hat.
Crow Hunter
03-10-14, 14:48
I am with you 150,000% on this one. I live in the desert southwest. Although the thought of carryin' a hi-cap autoloader with two spare hi-cap mags would be the ideal, it just isn't practical to try to conceal that under a t-shirt and shorts in the middle of 105+ degree June or July weather.
Better to have the five-shot gun on your hip than the tacticool whatever sitting in the vehicle baking while you get robbed.
I agonized over this for too many years, but not anymore.
I actually carried a G26 w/12 rd magazine, spare G19 mag, cell phone, Kershaw folder, Surefire Backup light, bottle of water and a camera wearing a tee shirt and cargo shorts for a week during a vacation trip down to New Orleans and hit a bunch of the non-bar tourist spots. The last week in June. It was 102-107 and extremely muggy. I was never stopped or asked if I was carrying/armed by any LEO.
My wife was in a conference every day for that week so to entertain myself, I walked the streets to see all the sights that I knew would interest me but not be all that interesting to her. Then at night, I would walk around with her.
I am sure that my 642 S&W J-Frame would have been much more comfortable. But that 13rd 9mm that I could shoot well and quickly was way more comforting when I was accosted by a couple of upstanding young men wanting to know if I had a dollar. I am sure it was for bus fare to get back home after coming to Bourbon street to get medicine for their dying grandmothers or something. A stern look with, "No I don't", was enough, that time.
I went down the 642 road just recently. Actually prompted by Greg's post about J-Frames. Unfortunately, I just can't devote enough time to get to the proficiency level that I feel comfortable with only the 642. (Plus, when I put stocks on it to make it comfortable enough to shoot enough to become as proficient as I want to be, it is nearly as bulky as my G26.) I recently bought another 100rd box of .38 special (Geez, .45 ACP is cheaper) to give it one more try.
Likely, I will be trading it in on my next rabbit hole a G42.... (Which is another whole can of worms.;))
Thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread. All great opinions and feedback. I really don't think there is a right or wrong way to carry regarding to type of gun you choose. It is a personal decision that you must live with. I purposely entitled this thread the way I did, because I knew it would provoke many responses which were very informative and well thought out. If I had entitled this thread ,"Hey, what do you think about the J Frame for sole personal defense?" I am sure I would have received the same old response 'Do. Search." I may have been misleading about my mode of carry. While I always carry my Smith and Wesson M&P 340 CT, I also carry either my Sig 290rs or my Glock 30s. playing a little Devils Advocate here, because there were several officers at work engage in a heated debate about this very topic. I don't presume to tell others what is best, but instead give good knowledge based information so others can make informed decisions. I will say that I do not think members of this forum accurately reflect the generally population of gun carrying people as the members here are very knowledgeable people or highly trained. Thank you for all the feedback.
Thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread. All great opinions and feedback. I really don't think there is a right or wrong way to carry regarding to type of gun you choose. It is a personal decision that you must live with. I purposely entitled this thread the way I did, because I knew it would provoke many responses which were very informative and well thought out. If I had entitled this thread ,"Hey, what do you think about the J Frame for sole personal defense?" I am sure I would have received the same old response 'Do. Search." I may have been misleading about my mode of carry. While I always carry my Smith and Wesson M&P 340 CT, I also carry either my Sig 290rs or my Glock 30s. playing a little Devils Advocate here, because there were several officers at work engage in a heated debate about this very topic. I don't presume to tell others what is best, but instead give good knowledge based information so others can make informed decisions. I will say that I do not think members of this forum accurately reflect the generally population of gun carrying people as the members here are very knowledgeable people or highly trained. Thank you for all the feedback.
Hence why I and others like it here. I have been on many a gun forum over the years, and was on the first news group for guns before there were any dedicated web sites, and in my view, the general knowledge base here is second to none. I found this forum via a member friend who is a true BTDT type who recommended/invited me to M4C. His word alone was enough for me.
Press Check
03-11-14, 22:35
Recently acquired an Airweight, and after toting it around for a few days, I'm not entirely sure I could live without one.
alcante262
03-12-14, 02:46
I am a Retired LEO.Now I carry a Glock 21SF that I had the grip modified most of the time.Its easy to carry if you dress properly around it.I for one like to have more rounds available to me.It doesnt mean that Im going to use all of them.But they are there if I need them.If and when I do carry my S&W M36 I have one additional speedloader.I used to carry a Colt Compact 1991A1.Great gun but only holds 6 or 7 and is really heavy.When I worked Patrol 15 years ago we carried Glock M22 40 Cal.Even then I had 5 magazines.Alittle harder to carry and run with although you train with the weapons you carry.Just my opinion.
As a self defence gun 5 rounds utilized properly will handle nearly all situations and you would have to stretch pretty far to draw out a self defence situation where you need more than 5 rounds.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
As a self defence gun 5 rounds utilized properly will handle nearly all situations and you would have to stretch pretty far to draw out a self defence situation where you need more than 5 rounds.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
Statistically speaking - yes. But you are willing to bet your life, or that of your loved ones on that? It's rhetorical... but for me, no way in hell. I have met "Mr Murphy" and he's an asshole. The day I leave the house with just a snubbie is the day 7 or 8 dudes will want to play the knock-out game... and the day my rounds will connect, but not be fatal quickly enough... and the day the bad guy wears soft armor... and the day the bad guys are doped up and feeling too strong to realize they are supposed to stop after I shoot them... and the day the bad guy has his own G17... you get the picture.
What about the woman who shot the intruder last year while on the phone with 911? She and her kids hid and the bad guy came after them. She emptied the revolver and I can't recall if the bad guy lived or died - but her gun was empty. The human body can absorb an incredible amount of damage. If you don't hit a "switch" then it is not inconceivable that the bad guy can advance on you and still do bad things after you run dry.
If a person is at a job/event where the dress code is such that a pocket gun is all you can have, then such is life. But day in, and day out... I see no reason to have a pocket gun and nothing else. If you wear pants you can easily have a G26/G19 size weapon on you. I hide a G21 w/ X300 daily, so I'm not going to be very sympathetic to the "it's too hot outside crowd." With an IWB holster, it's even easier. My IWB holster has hidden a full size Glock 22, a 5" Para P14-45, Glock 21... all under an untucked t-shirt.
It's an individual decision, and one we each have to live with if the worst happens. I guess I just don't get the "I'll probably only need XX" mindset. If I'm driving across the state to visit friends or family, and I know it only takes 7 gallons of gas to get there... why bother filling up the tank? What could possibly go wrong with that? In the military, the "two is one, one is none" mantra was driven home time after time. In my opinion it doesn't require a Herculean effort to move up from a 5 shot wheelgun to a G19. Yet the benefits are tremendous.
Crow Hunter
03-12-14, 15:08
Statistically speaking - yes. But you are willing to bet your life, or that of your loved ones on that? It's rhetorical... but for me, no way in hell. I have met "Mr Murphy" and he's an asshole. The day I leave the house with just a snubbie is the day 7 or 8 dudes will want to play the knock-out game... and the day my rounds will connect, but not be fatal quickly enough... and the day the bad guy wears soft armor... and the day the bad guys are doped up and feeling too strong to realize they are supposed to stop after I shoot them... and the day the bad guy has his own G17... you get the picture.
What about the woman who shot the intruder last year while on the phone with 911? She and her kids hid and the bad guy came after them. She emptied the revolver and I can't recall if the bad guy lived or died - but her gun was empty. The human body can absorb an incredible amount of damage. If you don't hit a "switch" then it is not inconceivable that the bad guy can advance on you and still do bad things after you run dry.
If a person is at a job/event where the dress code is such that a pocket gun is all you can have, then such is life. But day in, and day out... I see no reason to have a pocket gun and nothing else. If you wear pants you can easily have a G26/G19 size weapon on you. I hide a G21 w/ X300 daily, so I'm not going to be very sympathetic to the "it's too hot outside crowd." With an IWB holster, it's even easier. My IWB holster has hidden a full size Glock 22, a 5" Para P14-45, Glock 21... all under an untucked t-shirt.
It's an individual decision, and one we each have to live with if the worst happens. I guess I just don't get the "I'll probably only need XX" mindset. If I'm driving across the state to visit friends or family, and I know it only takes 7 gallons of gas to get there... why bother filling up the tank? What could possibly go wrong with that? In the military, the "two is one, one is none" mantra was driven home time after time. In my opinion it doesn't require a Herculean effort to move up from a 5 shot wheelgun to a G19. Yet the benefits are tremendous.
One thing that you left out, that I always try to keep in mind personally is missing. And is usually left out of most of these conversations. J-Frames are HARD to shoot well under normal range conditions much less in a stressful encounter.
I realize that there are probably people like Jerry Miculek who never miss a vital area with an Airweight. I am not one of these people.
I miss all the time just standing and shooting.:rolleyes: With me and the target both standing still and me being the only one shooting.
While I can shoot a J-frame, I can't shoot it anywhere near as fast or as well as I can a G26 nor can I make shots at what I consider a reasonable engagement distance with the regularity that I would want as a baseline for stress degredation.
7 yards and in, I don't have a problem with my 642. Double that and I will start missing a 8.5X11 sheet of paper unless I really concentrate on my trigger press. Triple that, well, if a person is moving, I might have a better chance of them running into the bullet.:cool:
With my G26, which, by the way I have lately practiced with MUCH less than I have with the 642, I can make those shots even without the constant dryfire and remedial training drills that I have been doing with the 642 (which has a very nice Performance Center trigger job vs my G26 with its factory crunchenticker).
So if I miss, which is likely unless it is at nearly bad breath distances, I only have 4 more chances to save my life while madly trying to get as much distance and hard stuff between me and the boogyman as possible. With my G26, I still have 10 more chances.
Don't even get me started on reloads....
I really suck with a J-frame.:o
But it is much lighter to carry than the G26 and MUCH safer to just slip in the pocket.
Statistically speaking - yes. But you are willing to bet your life, or that of your loved ones on that? It's rhetorical... but for me, no way in hell. I have met "Mr Murphy" and he's an asshole. The day I leave the house with just a snubbie is the day 7 or 8 dudes will want to play the knock-out game... and the day my rounds will connect, but not be fatal quickly enough... and the day the bad guy wears soft armor... and the day the bad guys are doped up and feeling too strong to realize they are supposed to stop after I shoot them... and the day the bad guy has his own G17... you get the picture.
What about the woman who shot the intruder last year while on the phone with 911? She and her kids hid and the bad guy came after them. She emptied the revolver and I can't recall if the bad guy lived or died - but her gun was empty. The human body can absorb an incredible amount of damage. If you don't hit a "switch" then it is not inconceivable that the bad guy can advance on you and still do bad things after you run dry.
If a person is at a job/event where the dress code is such that a pocket gun is all you can have, then such is life. But day in, and day out... I see no reason to have a pocket gun and nothing else. If you wear pants you can easily have a G26/G19 size weapon on you. I hide a G21 w/ X300 daily, so I'm not going to be very sympathetic to the "it's too hot outside crowd." With an IWB holster, it's even easier. My IWB holster has hidden a full size Glock 22, a 5" Para P14-45, Glock 21... all under an untucked t-shirt.
It's an individual decision, and one we each have to live with if the worst happens. I guess I just don't get the "I'll probably only need XX" mindset. If I'm driving across the state to visit friends or family, and I know it only takes 7 gallons of gas to get there... why bother filling up the tank? What could possibly go wrong with that? In the military, the "two is one, one is none" mantra was driven home time after time. In my opinion it doesn't require a Herculean effort to move up from a 5 shot wheelgun to a G19. Yet the benefits are tremendous.
Jeff Gonzales said something like "statistics are great, but it really sucks when you're on the wrong end of the statistics" or something like that in a class I took. I tend to live by that truth where/when possible. As a civi at least, we are statistically very unlikely to require a fire arm at all, but that does not seem to prevent us from doing it.
Personally, I'd consider a 5 shot snub in .357 or .38 the minimum acceptable fire arms for CCW/SD which is, as no doubt an improvement over the double stack .45 you left home because you're unable or unwilling to carry it.
Doc Safari
03-12-14, 15:13
J-Frames are HARD to shoot well under normal range conditions much less in a stressful encounter.
I shoot my 642 J-frame better than I did my 9mm Glock 17. I am confident that at the most likely handgun distances I can hit the target. I don't think the j-frame's long double action trigger is any worse or any better than Glock's pseudo-two-stage trigger. I find the J-frame's compact size, configuration, or SOMETHING, helps keep it on target through that long trigger pull in a way that I never got to enjoy with a Glock. YMMV.
One thing that you left out, that I always try to keep in mind personally is missing. And is usually left out of most of these conversations. J-Frames are HARD to shoot well under normal range conditions much less in a stressful encounter.
I realize that there are probably people like Jerry Miculek who never miss a vital area with an Airweight. I am not one of these people.
I miss all the time just standing and shooting.:rolleyes: With me and the target both standing still and me being the only one shooting.
While I can shoot a J-frame, I can't shoot it anywhere near as fast or as well as I can a G26 nor can I make shots at what I consider a reasonable engagement distance with the regularity that I would want as a baseline for stress degredation.
7 yards and in, I don't have a problem with my 642. Double that and I will start missing a 8.5X11 sheet of paper unless I really concentrate on my trigger press. Triple that, well, if a person is moving, I might have a better chance of them running into the bullet.:cool:
With my G26, which, by the way I have lately practiced with MUCH less than I have with the 642, I can make those shots even without the constant dryfire and remedial training drills that I have been doing with the 642 (which has a very nice Performance Center trigger job vs my G26 with its factory crunchenticker).
So if I miss, which is likely unless it is at nearly bad breath distances, I only have 4 more chances to save my life while madly trying to get as much distance and hard stuff between me and the boogyman as possible. With my G26, I still have 10 more chances.
Don't even get me started on reloads....
I really suck with a J-frame.:o
But it is much lighter to carry than the G26 and MUCH safer to just slip in the pocket.
Exactly! Few people will ever put in the time/effort to master a snubbie (myself included). I did finally break down and get a CT laser grip for mine after reading Greg's thread on the subject. It does make a helluva difference, but I know I'm not where I need to be with the weapon.
ETA: In most shootings the hit ratio is 1 in 4. So with a snubbie you can expect to get 1 or 2 hits and then the gun is empty. Since handguns are terrible people stoppers, 1 or 2 may not get the job done. So between the stats for people who are shot by handguns and not killed, and the hit probability for the trained good guys... those stats are more worrisome to me than any comfort from the stats that l will need less than 5 rounds.
One thing that you left out, that I always try to keep in mind personally is missing. And is usually left out of most of these conversations. J-Frames are HARD to shoot well under normal range conditions much less in a stressful encounter.
I realize that there are probably people like Jerry Miculek who never miss a vital area with an Airweight. I am not one of these people.
I miss all the time just standing and shooting.:rolleyes: With me and the target both standing still and me being the only one shooting.
While I can shoot a J-frame, I can't shoot it anywhere near as fast or as well as I can a G26 nor can I make shots at what I consider a reasonable engagement distance with the regularity that I would want as a baseline for stress degredation.
7 yards and in, I don't have a problem with my 642. Double that and I will start missing a 8.5X11 sheet of paper unless I really concentrate on my trigger press. Triple that, well, if a person is moving, I might have a better chance of them running into the bullet.:cool:
With my G26, which, by the way I have lately practiced with MUCH less than I have with the 642, I can make those shots even without the constant dryfire and remedial training drills that I have been doing with the 642 (which has a very nice Performance Center trigger job vs my G26 with its factory crunchenticker).
So if I miss, which is likely unless it is at nearly bad breath distances, I only have 4 more chances to save my life while madly trying to get as much distance and hard stuff between me and the boogyman as possible. With my G26, I still have 10 more chances.
Don't even get me started on reloads....
I really suck with a J-frame.:o
But it is much lighter to carry than the G26 and MUCH safer to just slip in the pocket.
If you are trying to engage a moving target at over 50 feet away you made some poor choices. If you kill someone who is running and 50-100 feet away you can expect to face jail time. I feel 7 yards, 21 feet to be the outside range of a self defence situation. If you are not capable of keeping all shots on a torso at 20 feet you need more range time.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
Voodoo_Man
03-12-14, 15:41
If you are trying to engage a moving target at over 50 feet away you made some poor choices. If you kill someone who is running and 50-100 feet away you can expect to face jail time. I feel 7 yards, 21 feet to be the outside range of a self defence situation. If you are not capable of keeping all shots on a torso at 20 feet you need more range time.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
I do not know where you are getting your information from, but a good shoot is a good shoot. If you are justifiable shooting a person at 7 yards, you are justifiable in shooting them at 25, 50 or a mile, distance, much like the weapon is not that important. The circumstances are much more important.
Who is to say that because the shot that needs to be made is 50 yards away that the person taking the shot is not very proficient in shooting at 50 yards and can do so accurately?
Less assumptions, not real world experiences.
Show me one case of an individual making a 100 foot shot in self defence, killing the person and being released.
If someone is that far away you need to be getting the hell out of there.
You are now in a rifle fight not a concealed carry mugger in an alley self defence scenario.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
I enjoyed the OP's post. A J-frame (mine is a M36) isn't my preferred carry, but when I do carry it, I don't feel like I don't have a chance in a threatening situation (if it can't be avoided altogether).
Crow Hunter
03-12-14, 15:53
If you are trying to engage a moving target at over 50 feet away you made some poor choices. If you kill someone who is running and 50-100 feet away you can expect to face jail time. I feel 7 yards, 21 feet to be the outside range of a self defence situation. If you are not capable of keeping all shots on a torso at 20 feet you need more range time.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
I wouldn't kill someone who is running away.
I will be the one running away. ;)
Since I can't plan ahead for who, how many or where someone might try to kill me or what I might be doing while said person(s) might be trying to kill me. I want to be a capable as possible.
Plus, just because I can keep all my shots on paper at 21 feet doesn't mean that those hits are to vital areas nor does it mean that those 5 shots will stop someone and that is assuming that I will have a full sized target available to shoot even at 21 feet. He might be smart and taking cover/running away too.;)
But yes, I do need more range time with my G19/G26.:cool:
I need even more time with a 642.
Voodoo_Man
03-12-14, 15:59
Show me one case of an individual making a 100 foot shot in self defence, killing the person and being released.
If someone is that far away you need to be getting the hell out of there.
You are now in a rifle fight not a concealed carry mugger in an alley self defence scenario.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
A coworker made a 90-100 yard shot, on a populated street, getting good shit putting the bad guy down. Can't link anything since its not out for public consumption.
What exactly are you hinting at? Someone being arrested for endangering others for taking a shot like that? Show me a case where it has occurred?
I remembered one that hit the news: http://www.guns.com/2012/08/01/texas-gun-owner-shoot-out/
Stacy raised his gun, fired, and landed one hell of a shot – by his estimate “a good 165 yards” – with a pistol (we do not know the make or caliber at this time). Stacy wasn’t even sure if he could make the shot at that distance: “I hope this magnum bullet’ll hold up, you know, this distance. And sure enough it did and I hit him in the thigh.”
He's wasn't arrested btw.
Edit; remember another one:
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=8767
Meanwhile, Senior Airman Andrew P. Brown, age 25, with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron, was patrolling the base’s housing areas on a bicycle when he received an emergency call on his two-way radio. He pedaled a quarter-mile to the scene and, while still some 70 yards away, spotted Mellberg shooting at scores of panic-stricken people in the parking lot.
Brown ditched his bicycle and ordered the gunman to drop his weapon. When Mellberg turned and shot at him, Brown dropped into a combat crouch and returned fire with his 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol. He fired four rounds at Mellberg; two missed, one hit him in the shoulder and one struck him between the eyes, instantly ending his homicidal rampage. The drum magazine in Mellberg’s MAK-90 still held 19 rounds of ammunition.
Crow Hunter
03-12-14, 16:06
I shoot my 642 J-frame better than I did my 9mm Glock 17. I am confident that at the most likely handgun distances I can hit the target. I don't think the j-frame's long double action trigger is any worse or any better than Glock's pseudo-two-stage trigger. I find the J-frame's compact size, configuration, or SOMETHING, helps keep it on target through that long trigger pull in a way that I never got to enjoy with a Glock. YMMV.
If you shoot your J-frame better than the G17 you absolutely made the best choice. I really should have put a qualifier for YMMV.
I wish I could. I even bought one of the TALO Performance Center versions and it does have a nice trigger. But I suck with it. Even after doing loads of dry fire. Which is odd because I have a 686 that I shoot way better than my Glocks. (Of course it has a 6" bbl on it)
I am going to give it one more go but really with the Pacmayer Compac grips it is almost as bulky as my G26 just not as heavy.
And the lesson is .... If you are found in a fire fight in your trailer park .... Get your rifle and make one clean shot.
Other tip .... Don't live in a trailer park.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
I previously mentioned Michael de Bethencourt (www.snubtraining.com). Browsing through some more of his stuff, I see these comments posted to the net. They seem appropriate here, and seem to reflect the thoughts of several posters in this and Greg's thread.
The number one reason I carry, shoot and teach snubs is because they are fun. They can be practical. They can be effective. But they always fun. A pistol is in many ways the better self-defense tool and if you carry a pistol for purely utilitarian reasons you are well served. But the snub is a gun of nuanced character. There are five different manual-of-arms loading styles with five different reloading tools by type. Its design is asymmetry and requires seperate skill to work right, left and single handed. Most shooters will never shoot up to the potential of the gun but it always rewards the shooter for his effort. To many (most?) it is only a relic of the past and is barely clinging on as a backup tool or a first gun for the neophyte. But like bowler hats, loaded walking sticks and brass knuckles they have a classic "je ne sais quoi" all their own. And best of all they are fun. — (MdB) in Auburndale, MA.
Class, character, and je ne sais quoi don't win gunfights, but they certainly can help explain the Js continuing popularity and affection of its owners.
SeriousStudent
03-13-14, 23:55
To echo/paraphrase my colleague Skintop911, I practice with a J-frame because it's hard. I have a pair of really nice J-frames, and of all the pistols I own, they are the most difficult pistols to shoot well.
If I can get a good rolling break on a 642's DA trigger, an M&P with Apex parts is child's play.
If I can shoot five consecutive headshots from the draw with my 2" Model 60 in .357, then how hard is it to do do that with a Glock 17?
Plus, I just really like having a backup gun. But I'm not kidding myself that for my purposes, it's better as a backup than a primary.
Tom Givens talks about a J-frame being a "one bad guy gun." I've met Tom, and he's a smart, rational fellow who makes a reasoned case for what he says. If I have to use a J-frame, it had better be on that last bad guy, not the first. Because if it is just the first bad guy, then my world has turned into a flaming wheelbarrow full of suck and fail.
And I'm saying all this as someone that has a 642 in his left front pocket pretty much all the time.
Doc Safari
03-14-14, 10:14
I think it's important to reiterate that the J-frame's primary purpose is to provide you with a gun that you will carry when other guns are too bulky or too unconcealable to carry. Even though some claim to be able to conceal Glock 19's and larger firearms even under summer clothing, not every person of every body type can do that.
You have a high capacity wondernine on your hip and enough ammo to decimate a street gang? Good. More power to ya. I suspect there are way more people who "just leave the gun in the car" rather than fight the extra concealability issues when trying to carry a larger handgun.
To those people who say "five shots just isn't enough and reloading is too slow" with a J-frame, I have to reiterate that the gun itself is not the total end-all-and-be-all of defensive concealed carry.
Part of the art of concealed carry, too, is to recognize not only the limitations of your firearm, but also to have enough situational awareness to exercise discretion to not put yourself in harm's way in the first place.
Now, if for whatever reason you are only able to carry a five-shot revolver, then you need to realize its limitations and do your best to avoid situations where you are going to be confronted by multiple assailants.
Don't stop in that dark parking lot where there are fifteen guys standing around. Don't go jogging through that neighborhood where there has been some gang activity. You get the idea.
The main purpose of a J-frame is to allow you to carry a gun when carrying any other gun is impossible or impractical.
That's it in a nutshell.
Back again. It is called a belly gun for a reason.
Back again. It is called a belly gun for a reason.
Those willing and able to take the time to be proficient with a snub revolver (not a common skill set granted) they are far more than a belly gun. I don't CCW one (see other comments) but it's really not a correct term for a quality snub revolver with modern ammo in it in the hands of those proficient with such a gun. Anything is a "belly gun" in the hands of those who have minimal/no training with a hand gun and assume it's like TV, good guys can't miss and BG can't hit sh&%.
alcante262
03-23-14, 19:48
I sure would like to see some pics of CCW J-Frames
That is because you are a bad MF. I, as a lazy man, usually carry my J-frame. When it is cold enough for a real jacket I do strap on the Wilson.
Count me in. I have been carrying a J Frame during warm weather for over 25 years. Is it the best option when it hits the fan? No. Is it convenient to carry and adequate in most instances? Yes.
I carry a compact 1911 during the winter months. Would a high capicity pistol be good to have? Yes. Is a 7 shot 1911 an adequate self defense pistol, I believe so.
I sure would like to see some pics of CCW J-Frames
There are a bunch on site, and umpteen more via google.
Not a lot of variation out there like in other systems.
Doc Safari
03-24-14, 09:37
Just to add fuel to the fire: those of you who added a Crimson Trace laser grip to your weapon--do you find it greatly increases the gun's capabilities, or is it of minimal benefit?
luckybychoice
03-24-14, 14:47
S&W Bodyguard with Insight Technologies Laser factory mount. Going to requalify For my CCP with it Saturday.
The reload should be fun.
SeriousStudent
03-24-14, 22:30
Just to add fuel to the fire: those of you who added a Crimson Trace laser grip to your weapon--do you find it greatly increases the gun's capabilities, or is it of minimal benefit?
There are honestly a lot of other threads on that.
But in my opinion, the answer is yes. The 642 in my left front pocket right now has a Crimson Trace laser grip on it.
Just to add fuel to the fire: those of you who added a Crimson Trace laser grip to your weapon--do you find it greatly increases the gun's capabilities, or is it of minimal benefit?
I did, simply because in low light I couldn't quickly pick up the small sights on my M36. Old eyes.... Out-of-doors I stay with the irons.
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Doc Safari
03-25-14, 09:19
There are honestly a lot of other threads on that.
My point is that those who deride the J-Frame as a "belly gun" aren't making use of accessories that upgrade it to top-of-the-line. That's all.
Just to add fuel to the fire: those of you who added a Crimson Trace laser grip to your weapon--do you find it greatly increases the gun's capabilities, or is it of minimal benefit?
Depends how much you practice. A j frame is not meant to be a slow fire weapon for engaging at 25 yards. It is a close quarters combat weapon.
You should be able to draw and fire from both the low ready and traditional shooting stance and keep shots on a torso at 7 yards without using the sights.
If you are not able to do this then maybe a laser is a good idea for you.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
03-25-14, 18:54
I think a laser is a necessity for any gun than can reasonably be fitted with them. Anyone who has spent anytime in low light training knows of what I speak.The J-frame is so seamlessly integrated with laser grips there is no good reason not to.
Desantis Clip-grip for me currently on a 340PD with XS Bigs. I like the position these stocks put my trigger finger in. But I am sure I'll end up with a green CTC at some point. With ease I can dump all 5 at 25 yards on a 5 inch steel plate. First round is 5 148gr wadcutters that recoil like a .22mag even out of this 11.5oz gun, 2nd on a safariland speedloader is Corbon 110 .38+p. Not a primary carry but I shoot it TONS.
dookie1481
04-06-14, 01:14
Carry a ****ing gun. Arguing which gun to carry is reserved for neckbeards.
Do you people really think that defensive gun uses are limited to 15 round autoloaders?!?!?!
walkin' trails
04-06-14, 11:37
I think off duty LE and civilians in high risk occupations (high risk of violent robbery) ought to carry the handgun with the highest capacity that they can fire proficiency under stress while still able to conceal. If you're going to carry a five shot based on that criteria, consider carrying two and having sufficient reloads for both. For the average run of the mill CCW, a five shot is more than adequate. Throwing in the risk of multiple attackers and gang tactics, one should start factoring in movement and other tactics rather than standing firm and shooting it out with them. If you're going to carry a five shot, have at least two reloads, as trying to top off a revolver under stress, even with speed loaders can result in dropped rounds or botched reloads.
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I really like a New York reload if I'm only packing a J frame. I really don't feel under gunned with one in each pocket and lots and lots of practice.
i'm so confused as to why this thread was made when the OP referenced there was already a 89 page exhaustive thread on the topic.
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