View Full Version : The Firearm Blog's Colt 6920 Review
Tzintzuntzan
03-10-14, 11:20
Just saw this on The Firearm Blog and was surprised to say the least. Maybe now people will start to believe that there really is a difference between the lower end manufacturers and those who follow the TDP if they read something like this? I'm not holding my breath though.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/07/6000-rounds-later-review-colt-6920/
I really like mine after this weekend i have over 5000 rounds without 1 issue. For the price they are a bargain.
I wonder where he ended up with that raggedy stock? I couldn't make out the C on the upper.
wildcard600
03-10-14, 19:21
Maybe now people will start to believe that there really is a difference between the lower end manufacturers and those who follow the TDP if they read something like this? I'm not holding my breath though.
good thing, cause you would be holding your breath for a LONG time. on another forum that I frequent (non-firearm related) a member posted a question about what kind of AR he should buy. I advised basic BCM, Colt or at the very least a spikes. I was told by others that there was no reason to buy a "high dollar" AR like those since a DPMS will work just as good and that building to TDP is a marketing scam by those "custom AR companies" and if you are going to drop money like that you should just get a Sig piston rifle cause that apparently is the zenith of AR design.
quaesitor logica
03-10-14, 19:33
I thought Colt and F.N were the only ones that produce these rifles by the TDP
Tzintzuntzan
03-10-14, 20:27
I thought Colt and F.N were the only ones that produce these rifles by the TDP
The FN15 isn't milsec. If you mean the rifles that FN builds under contract then you'd be correct in so far as that FN and Colt build rifles to spec. I'm pretty sure that there are other companies that build rifles that are to spec, or as close as us civvies can get to a spec AR15, BCM comes to mind here.
Tzintzuntzan
03-10-14, 20:28
good thing, cause you would be holding your breath for a LONG time. on another forum that I frequent (non-firearm related) a member posted a question about what kind of AR he should buy. I advised basic BCM, Colt or at the very least a spikes. I was told by others that there was no reason to buy a "high dollar" AR like those since a DPMS will work just as good and that building to TDP is a marketing scam by those "custom AR companies" and if you are going to drop money like that you should just get a Sig piston rifle cause that apparently is the zenith of AR design.
LOL, do they also go to 4chan? I guess we should be glad that they haven't needed to know the difference yet, and with any luck they never will.
good thing, cause you would be holding your breath for a LONG time. on another forum that I frequent (non-firearm related) a member posted a question about what kind of AR he should buy. I advised basic BCM, Colt or at the very least a spikes. I was told by others that there was no reason to buy a "high dollar" AR like those since a DPMS will work just as good and that building to TDP is a marketing scam by those "custom AR companies" and if you are going to drop money like that you should just get a Sig piston rifle cause that apparently is the zenith of AR design.
Most guys I have run into on a majority of gun forums as well as in person who refuse to do actual reading and research on the AR15 buy into the whole an AR is an AR, is an AR, ect. I truthfully think it is for twofold reasons. One, they are lazy and don't like/know how to read. I really do believe that. I have tried to help educate people on why buying a Colt, BCM, DD, or other AR that is in spec is worth spending the extra $100-300 dollars. Once wrote a whole damn post, must have been 1500-2K words. Had about three or four responses within an hour to the effect, "I don't want to/won't read all that. Buy DPMS it is better than milspec. After all Army ARs break all the time." Linked an article of filthy 14, same shit. Most who do read don't read more than gun rags and honestly do believe that 3 round groups are a perfect clue of a rifle's accuracy, that 500 rounds is a massive torture test of reliability, and that whatever mechanical accuracy that a writer was able to get from a pistol in a ransom rest is what they can do with the same model pistol on demand under stress with bullets coming at them. Oh, and that pistol is a pistol they bought three months ago along with a box of the cheapest JHP the gun store had that they loaded up and shoved in a holster in the car in the parking lot, but the pistol was 100% in all the reviews! People are stupid!! :shout::shout::shout::shout:
Reason two. People are cheap ass mother****ers. Have seen this in everything. ARs, handguns, other rifles, cars, ect, ect. Hell I saw a guy buy a goddamn .338 Lapua, damn thing had to be 2-3K+ and then buy a BSA scope, a mother****ing BSA scope, to mount on it. Most when it comes to ARs don't want to spend more than they need to. I can't tell you the number of people I run into who tell me their DPMS, Bushmaster, Sig, Model 1, no name FrankenAR, or whatever odd ball never heard of before AR is so great and has been 102% reliable. Usually when I ask them how many rounds they have through them it is under 1k, often under 300. Remember one guy who wanted to state how much better and more reliable his parts gun that he spent only $500 on was over my BCM build that I had more in the optic than he did in his entire rifle with optic. "How many rounds do you have through it?" I asked, "18." Was his response. :blink:. "Over the course of three range trips." :blink::blink:. I'm sorry, I fired mine more than that zeroing my irons and ACOG, come back and lets compare notes in 4K rounds.
Sorry for the rant, but stupid and ignorant people who can't listen to facts, reason, and who refuse to educate themselves piss me off. I'm going to go hold my BCM now.
Tzintzuntzan
03-10-14, 22:11
"But I'll never need to fire more than 18 rounds if someone breaks in!" :lol:
I almost got into an argument with my uncle when I said I thought .380ACP was too small a caliber and that I'd prefer 9mm. Then I have another uncle who can't quite understand why people rely on .32 caliber semi autos as their CCW. Oddly enough the first one is the one who worked for years as an LEO and the other just shot high power before he got out of high school back when a match garand was grade A and even got to lose a few times to a future gold medal winner in some California matches. Can't remember which guy who won the gold but it was some time after the 60s I believe.
I thought Colt and F.N were the only ones that produce these rifles by the TDP
I know BCM and Spike's follow the TDP.
txf15crewchief
03-11-14, 00:56
The comments on that review are so full of derp, I think my head would explode if I read anymore. Also, I know the reviewer, to say he's beat the crap out of that carbine would be an understatement. Someone earlier in the thread asked why he changed the buttstock; it's because the OEM Colt stock was wobbly/loose. He replaced it with a Tapco if I remember correctly. His early abuse of that 6920 lead to me purchasing one, albeit topped by a Aimpoint T1 instead of an ACOG.
I know BCM and Spike's follow the TDP.
Spikes does not.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
remington79
03-11-14, 14:18
If that's a picture of him shooting groups he may be able to tighten them up if he put the barrel on the rest. Put a hat down and then the forearm on top of that.
good thing, cause you would be holding your breath for a LONG time. on another forum that I frequent (non-firearm related) a member posted a question about what kind of AR he should buy. I advised basic BCM, Colt or at the very least a spikes. I was told by others that there was no reason to buy a "high dollar" AR like those since a DPMS will work just as good and that building to TDP is a marketing scam by those "custom AR companies" and if you are going to drop money like that you should just get a Sig piston rifle cause that apparently is the zenith of AR design.
As Grant et al have pointed out many times, the biggest problem with the AR (and 1911 I'd wager) is they all look essentially the same. So a truly GTG AR looks pretty much the same (and often not even as "cool" looking because focus is not on tact-cool attachments vs quality total at the price point) and so, it's very easy to assume they are essentially the same.
Unless one spends time digging and listening to those who know the topic well, they will remain poorly informed. The truth is of course, those lower quality ARs are marketed to the vast majority of AR owners who may put 200rnds per year through the AR and consider it "super reliable" due to that fact.
So, you either make a product (in this case an AR) what it should be because you simply take pride in what you produce knowing it's likely not to sell as well as as less products that will spend more $$$ on marketing than R&D, QC, etc. or you focus on the lowest common denominator and sell to them.
At least part of the "AR is an AR" mentality stems from the fact that the average Joe Sixpack has absolutely no technical knowledge or sense. I can't tell you the number of herp derp looks I've gotten from people when I try to explain why Carpenter 158 is the technically correct choice for bolt steel or what exactly HPT and MPI accomplishes or even crap as simple as why in the world would you want to stake screws and castle nuts. The longer I live the more I think that the average human being has an actual lump of dog crap where their brain should be...
sinlessorrow
03-11-14, 15:20
Pat Rogers ran a 6940 to 17,000 rounds before a bad round detonated it.
No stoppages and no parts replaced.
At least part of the "AR is an AR" mentality stems from the fact that the average Joe Sixpack has absolutely no technical knowledge or sense. I can't tell you the number of herp derp looks I've gotten from people when I try to explain why Carpenter 158 is the technically correct choice for bolt steel or what exactly HPT and MPI accomplishes or even crap as simple as why in the world would you want to stake screws and castle nuts. The longer I live the more I think that the average human being has an actual lump of dog crap where their brain should be...
I don't even try to explain things to mouth breathers. There's so much money to be made off of idiot gun customers. It's a wonder how any quality products ever make it to market.
Shit. The smart Local dealer has a case full of Kel Tecs and shelves full of .380 ammo.
I love my 6920, I have put 5,000+ rds through it both steel and brass and had zero issues.
I don't even try to explain things to mouth breathers. There's so much money to be made off of idiot gun customers. It's a wonder how any quality products ever make it to market.
Shit. The smart Local dealer has a case full of Kel Tecs and shelves full of .380 ammo.
But don't you think so much of the blame for this lies with those very dealers? It seems to me that they're often the primary source of the stupidity. I recently heard one going on and to a customer about how much more powerful .380 is than .38 Special.
Tzintzuntzan
03-11-14, 17:36
But don't you think so much of the blame for this lies with those very dealers? It seems to me that they're often the primary source of the stupidity. I recently heard one going on and to a customer about how much more powerful .380 is than .38 Special.
Yeah, someone once tried to convince me that a US manufactured and built AK was a solid buy. I guess Jim Fuller and Mark Krebs don't know WTF they're talking about :jester:
remington79
03-11-14, 17:37
Look at my join date and my post count. I lurked for awhile while I was doing off and on research and wondering where to get the money to save. Finally in 2012 I picked up a LE6920. The only problem with it is I now want another one. The reason i picked one up was because of the research and imformation from this site. I went to TOS a couple of times but was ot and still am not impressed with it. Too many fan boys and not enough maturity. There was also too much an AR is an AR mentality when ever I went there. I didn't know a lot about ARs at the time (still have a lot to learn but I'm a lot more educated).
Before this site I never heard of MPI, Carpenter 158, etc. I wouldn't have thought about what steel the barrel was made of or even think about looking for staking on the gas key never mind if it was done right. It's a good thing I like to do research before I buy big ticket items no matter how long I have to do the research. If I didn't I would have ended up with a RRA or a Stag. When ever I hear people talk about an AR on other gun forums I refer them to hear along with some of the stickies.
Tzintzuntzan
03-11-14, 17:40
Glad to here it just remember not to be too preachy, like I have and probably continue to be, or they'll think you're an asshole for trying to keep them from wasting their hard earned money. All because someone else told them a different story.
remington79
03-11-14, 17:44
I try to keep it low key. I just say that there is a lot of knowledge here and link a couple of stickies. Mainly the knowlege based ones and the thread titled I bought a Bushmaster, RRA before I knew better. I keep it to just a couple of sentences.
quaesitor logica
03-11-14, 18:11
Im not surprised by Firearm blogs review in the slightest. Colts are built to run. Colts may not live up everything desired in an AR to alot of people and hence you have many brands. One thing that cannot be said about a Colt AR is "undependable".
Tzintzuntzan
03-11-14, 20:33
I was surprised to see how many rounds had been put through the rifle before they reviewed it since I've noticed before that they and most of the other blogs tend to not run more than 500 rounds through a rifle before calling it good.
I don't even try to explain things to mouth breathers. There's so much money to be made off of idiot gun customers. It's a wonder how any quality products ever make it to market.
Shit. The smart Local dealer has a case full of Kel Tecs and shelves full of .380 ammo.
Honestly, putting myself in his position, if I was a dealer, I'd have shelves full of that stuff too. I wouldn't recommend it to people but I'd sure stock it. The purpose of a business is to make $. If that's what sells, you'd be foolish not to stock it. Businesses that don't sell what people are buying, aren't businesses very long...
I admit that I am somewhat caught up in all the mid-length, A5, B5, super grip, cool rail, best handstop ever stuff too. But I also own a 6920 and often think that is all I need--and thinking it more often.
..."18." Was his response. :blink:. "Over the course of three range trips."...
Maybe he was lapping imperfections in the barrel, you know, one and clean.... that shit takes time. :sarcastic:
Grand58742
03-12-14, 12:51
Honestly, putting myself in his position, if I was a dealer, I'd have shelves full of that stuff too. I wouldn't recommend it to people but I'd sure stock it. The purpose of a business is to make $. If that's what sells, you'd be foolish not to stock it. Businesses that don't sell what people are buying, aren't businesses very long...
I'd say Grant does a pretty fair business not selling "what people are buying." Folks go to Grant because they know what they are buying.
Honestly, putting myself in his position, if I was a dealer, I'd have shelves full of that stuff too. I wouldn't recommend it to people but I'd sure stock it. The purpose of a business is to make $. If that's what sells, you'd be foolish not to stock it. Businesses that don't sell what people are buying, aren't businesses very long...
I've seen Bud's Guns "top 10" seller list before. It's every gun I wouldn't take for free. I guess people just don't know, and don't want to throw a lot of money into something they're not passionate about....
But on the other hand, I run into shooters from time to time that are just full blow idiots.
I'd say Grant does a pretty fair business not selling "what people are buying." Folks go to Grant because they know what they are buying.
That's one business model and it surely can be made to work. From what I've seen he's done it with a lot of hard work marketing to professionals and people who do have some sense, which is a relatively small market. I also think he's also been extremely smart in keeping it a very low overhead, appointment only operation. It's a damn good business model IMO. I'm not entirely certain you could make the same model work with a standard 8-5 retail operation with all the inherent overhead though.
I've seen Bud's Guns "top 10" seller list before. It's every gun I wouldn't take for free. I guess people just don't know, and don't want to throw a lot of money into something they're not passionate about....
But on the other hand, I run into shooters from time to time that are just full blow idiots.
That's the case in just about everything from guns to cars to tvs. There's a lot of people that just want what they want, a lot that want something at a certain price point and some are too stupid to know any better. If you want to make money, the best thing you can do at a business if offer a wide variety of products at a variety of price points in order to cater to the most customers. I would counsel customers all day not to buy a DPMS or a Hi-point but in the end if that's what they want, I see no point in sending that $ down the road to a competitor just because I don't like the product and refuse to carry it. If they're dead set on those things, that's what they're going to buy, so they may as well buy it from me...
I know BCM and Spike's follow the TDP.
I would question the second one in your list.
C4
Honestly, putting myself in his position, if I was a dealer, I'd have shelves full of that stuff too. I wouldn't recommend it to people but I'd sure stock it. The purpose of a business is to make $. If that's what sells, you'd be foolish not to stock it. Businesses that don't sell what people are buying, aren't businesses very long...
Unfortunately, I have a conscience and must live with myself. Many of my customers are first responders and I cannot allow them to buy crap.
C4
Doc Safari
03-12-14, 14:58
Unfortunately, I have a conscience and must live with myself. Many of my customers are first responders and I cannot allow them to buy crap.
C4
Good on ya, Grant.
quaesitor logica
03-12-14, 18:31
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/9DivDoc/IMG_0077_zps8d691d7a.jpg
I dont see where this ^^ rifle^^ is any more "TDP" MIL-SPEC" than this
http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/11/16/2341323_05_spike_s_tactical_st_15_chf_16__640.jpg
Both are well made though
But don't you think so much of the blame for this lies with those very dealers?
That's certainly the case with a number of gun shops I've been in here in CO. I can only deduce that they are pushing the products they are dealers for and while they may actually know better (or not...), there's no point in them recommending something they don't sell (from a business standpoint). I've heard all manner of praise heaped on DPMS.
Reading this makes me glad I bought a 6920 two weeks ago. Everyone complains about the cosmetics of a colt and mine isn't a perfect looking specimen either but if it's built to last that makes me happy enough.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/9DivDoc/IMG_0077_zps8d691d7a.jpg
I dont see where this ^^ rifle^^ is any more "TDP" MIL-SPEC" than this
http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/11/16/2341323_05_spike_s_tactical_st_15_chf_16__640.jpg
Both are well made though
Sometimes you must go deeper than what is simply stated on a website.
C4
Tzintzuntzan
03-12-14, 20:54
Sometimes you must go deeper than what is simply stated on a website.
C4
Grant, what's not to spec on the Spikes gear? Is it the BCG or the barrel or the FCG?
Grant, what's not to spec on the Spikes gear? Is it the BCG or the barrel or the FCG?
Hard to say. Could be everything or just one thing.
It comes down to trust. Do you believe what the manufacturer is telling you?
C4
quaesitor logica
03-12-14, 21:11
We already know that neither rifle is MIL-SPEC, they are both semi-auto and they both have F.N CHF barrels and and handguards and triggers and coatings, et-cetera. So as far as you know and can prove, Spikes is good to go. That is a logical conclusion if you go by their track record.
The Spikes is as nonconforming BCM example and they are both quality weapons as their respective track records prove.
Colt 6920....not BCM, Spikes, ect
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/rocketmanmtb/35f4617fca536ef4d31f8eabbd30018f_zpsda61e9bf.jpg
quaesitor logica
03-13-14, 08:20
Colt 6920....not BCM, Spikes, ect
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/rocketmanmtb/35f4617fca536ef4d31f8eabbd30018f_zpsda61e9bf.jpg
Touche' Sir, I bit, hook line and sinker.
We already know that neither rifle is MIL-SPEC, they are both semi-auto and they both have F.N CHF barrels and and handguards and triggers and coatings, et-cetera. So as far as you know and can prove, Spikes is good to go. That is a logical conclusion if you go by their track record.
The Spikes is as nonconforming BCM example and they are both quality weapons as their respective track records prove.
Read 1371Marine's comments in this thread as an example of what I am talking about.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?56063-Be-an-informed-consumer!/page7
You forget (or don't know), that I'm the guy that bought a ST upper and sent the barrel to a lab for destructive testing. ;)
C4
quaesitor logica
03-13-14, 08:29
Read 1371Marine's comments in this thread as an example of what I am talking about.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?56063-Be-an-informed-consumer!/page7
You forget (or don't know), that I'm the guy that bought a ST upper and sent the barrel to a lab for destructive testing. ;)
C4
You are correct , I did not know you did that with an ST upper. I'll search around for your results thread.
EDIT: Cant seem to find the thread where you sent in that ST upper in for testing... got a link? Did find a whole lotta history and drama between yourself and Spikes though... wow
You are correct , I did not know you did that with an ST upper. I'll search around for your results thread.
EDIT: Cant seem to find the thread where you sent in that ST upper in for testing... got a link? Did find a whole lotta history and drama between yourself and Spikes though... wow
Don't waste your time searching (as I never posted what I found). At some point I realized that errornet drama with ST was a waste of my time so I never did anything with the lab reports. I just ask people to think for themselves, ask hard questions of the manufacturers and treat each and every one of them like you would a used car salesman.
Good luck.
C4
montanadave
03-13-14, 09:17
I just ask people to think for themselves, ask hard questions of the manufacturers and treat each and every one of them like you would a used car salesman.
Good luck.
C4
Well, there ya go, Grant. Another online business opportunity. "Show me the GUNFAX!" :smile:
Well, there ya go, Grant. Another online business opportunity. "Show me the GUNFAX!" :smile:
I apologize to the OP for the thread derail.
At a future date, I will be showing off the fixtures that BCM uses to check every single spec of the AR. Then, people will be able to take this info to their favorite AR manufacturer and ask the tough question; "Do you do this?"
C4
Unfortunately, I have a conscience and must live with myself. Many of my customers are first responders and I cannot allow them to buy crap.
C4
I see where you're coming from but take a little different view. They're adults, if the knowledge is there and they refuse it or don't even ask, then that's on them, my concience is clear. Honestly I think that goes double for professionals who should either know quality gear or know to ask for and take advice from someone who does know quality gear.
Again, my advice would always be the good stuff and it would be the stuff I'd put front and center.
I see where you're coming from but take a little different view. They're adults, if the knowledge is there and they refuse it or don't even ask, then that's on them, my concience is clear. Honestly I think that goes double for professionals who should either know quality gear or know to ask for and take advice from someone who does know quality gear.
Again, my advice would always be the good stuff and it would be the stuff I'd put front and center.
Most people don't know what they don't know when it comes to black rifles (as they all look same). The burden is on me (as I do know).
If we were purely fueled by "dollars," then you have a valid point. We are not.
C4
Most people don't know what they don't know when it comes to black rifles (as they all look same). The burden is on me (as I do know).
If we were purely fueled by "dollars," then you have a valid point. We are not.
C4
I'm not telling you how to run your business, just saying how I'd run mine if I had one. If I'm in business, I'm there to put food on table and roof over head and refusing sales doesn't accomplish that. If I'm up front about the deficiencies of something and they still want it then I'm going to sell it to them, period, whether it's guns or tvs or cars because I'm just not in to coddling adults like children. There's a world of difference between that and the morally and ethically lacking track that businesses of all types take of telling people "Hi-point/Sanyo/Kia is just as good as Glock/Samsung/Mercedes" and laughing all the way to the bank.
Or put another way. Some years ago I sold an old Jeep. Transmission was shot, it had a knock in the engine and the electrical system was problematic due to "repairs" the prior owner made. It was quite literally a junker. I was up front about the issues and the buyer paid my asking price. Did I have a moral or ethical lapse for selling that junker to the guy or did we trade openly and honestly to our mutual benefit? I tend to think the latter...
Anyway, I'll shut up to avoid derailing the thread any more. The 6920 is still a fine rifle and people could do a lot worse...
I'm not telling you how to run your business, just saying how I'd run mine if I had one. If I'm in business, I'm there to put food on table and roof over head and refusing sales doesn't accomplish that. If I'm up front about the deficiencies of something and they still want it then I'm going to sell it to them, period, whether it's guns or tvs or cars because I'm just not in to coddling adults like children. There's a world of difference between that and the morally and ethically lacking track that businesses of all types take of telling people "Hi-point/Sanyo/Kia is just as good as Glock/Samsung/Mercedes" and laughing all the way to the bank.
Or put another way. Some years ago I sold an old Jeep. Transmission was shot, it had a knock in the engine and the electrical system was problematic due to "repairs" the prior owner made. It was quite literally a junker. I was up front about the issues and the buyer paid my asking price. Did I have a moral or ethical lapse for selling that junker to the guy or did we trade openly and honestly to our mutual benefit? I tend to think the latter...
Anyway, I'll shut up to avoid derailing the thread any more. The 6920 is still a fine rifle and people could do a lot worse...
If we were struggling to make it, yes. We don't have that problem.
We do carry a low end AR (S&W SPORT).
C4
Press Check
03-13-14, 13:17
I'd hardly consider an S&W sport a low-end AR. Price wise, sure. Value, no.
quaesitor logica
03-13-14, 13:25
If we were struggling to make it, yes. We don't have that problem.
We do carry a low end AR (S&W SPORT).
C4
But you say Spikes is crap? I like S&W, good bang for the buck. You have sold DPMS also haven't you? I just cant understand how you can sell S&W with a clear conscience and trash Spikes in the same reality.
I thought the only difference between spikes and colt was spider or pony😂.
Grand58742
03-13-14, 13:44
Bringing the subject back on point to a degree, I think that people will look at the Firearm Blog article and say "well, cool." But the same people will turn around and look at the steel cased ammo tests done by Andrew Tuohy and say "well, he used a Bushmaster, what's the difference?" And I know Tuohy wasn't endorsing Bushmaster, but rather needed three identical carbines for the test. And had to work on them prior to the test which would be missed by many. And others will point to different blogs and videos about how that DPMS or Olympic Arms ran like a champ.
But back to the point, people will look at the two articles and come to the conclusions of Bushmaster = Colt. The look at the end result which is a whole hoop of rounds fired and it kept ticking. So when it comes down to it, people will look at best price of Bushmaster > Colt rather than value. To many, as Grant pointed out, an AR is an AR is an AR. They have no idea if it's to specs or has had the proper testing/inspections or if the rifle was put together by monkeys with hammers. To the average shooter, they could look at a rack full of ARs and say "it's anodized black, it goes bang, what's the difference except this one is more expensive than that one."
It is nice to see the Colt getting some press outside of specific sites and professional circles, but in the great scheme of things, I don't think the average shooter will pay it much mind. But information is key and getting the word out there is a basic industry standard helps in the long run.
Tzintzuntzan
03-14-14, 10:17
Bringing the subject back on point to a degree, I think that people will look at the Firearm Blog article and say "well, cool." But the same people will turn around and look at the steel cased ammo tests done by Andrew Tuohy and say "well, he used a Bushmaster, what's the difference?" And I know Tuohy wasn't endorsing Bushmaster, but rather needed three identical carbines for the test. And had to work on them prior to the test which would be missed by many. And others will point to different blogs and videos about how that DPMS or Olympic Arms ran like a champ.
But back to the point, people will look at the two articles and come to the conclusions of Bushmaster = Colt. The look at the end result which is a whole hoop of rounds fired and it kept ticking. So when it comes down to it, people will look at best price of Bushmaster > Colt rather than value. To many, as Grant pointed out, an AR is an AR is an AR. They have no idea if it's to specs or has had the proper testing/inspections or if the rifle was put together by monkeys with hammers. To the average shooter, they could look at a rack full of ARs and say "it's anodized black, it goes bang, what's the difference except this one is more expensive than that one."
It is nice to see the Colt getting some press outside of specific sites and professional circles, but in the great scheme of things, I don't think the average shooter will pay it much mind. But information is key and getting the word out there is a basic industry standard helps in the long run.
Weren't those Bushmaster barrels shot out before they even reached the 6K mark?
I'd hardly consider an S&W sport a low-end AR. Price wise, sure. Value, no.
We sell this gun in the lower $500's. That is a CHEAP AR. Is it a pretty good AR (for the money)? Yes, I think so.
C4
But you say Spikes is crap? I like S&W, good bang for the buck. You have sold DPMS also haven't you? I just cant understand how you can sell S&W with a clear conscience and trash Spikes in the same reality.
I am not sure where I said ST was crap in this thread. I have been on the record as saying that I would take a ST gun over a lot of other AR's.
No on DPMS.
We are a S&W LE Distributor. We are required to purchase so many M&P's AR's a year (FYI).
S&W does not pretend to be anything they are not. There is a difference.
Try not interpreting what I have said.
C4
quaesitor logica
03-14-14, 17:46
I am not sure where I said ST was crap in this thread. I have been on the record as saying that I would take a ST gun over a lot of other AR's.
No on DPMS.
We are a S&W LE Distributor. We are required to purchase so many M&P's AR's a year (FYI).
S&W does not pretend to be anything they are not. There is a difference.
So spikes tactical pretends to be something they are not?
Try not interpreting what I have said.
C4
Regarding Spikes claim of mil-spec and quality......Hard to say. Could be everything or just one thing.
It comes down to trust. Do you believe what the manufacturer is telling you?
that is the vib I get from you... "Dont trust Spikes, it may be crap".
C4
You also posted that you had a an ST upper tested by a lab to destruction (when I asked if you had proof they are a substandard product), I got the message that your results were less than positve. You did not commit one way or the other and declined to post the results of the testing.
I'm on the fence about building an SBR with Spikes components or purchasing a Colt 6933 or maybe going with a BCM build. I can build the Spikes SBR cheaper from what seems to be quality offerings. You as a Dealer on this site and somebody who has a fanbase here , at best you do not have anything good to say about Spikes and do your best to discourage anybody from purchasing thier products without actually coming out and saying anything directly critical. But you do your best to create doubt about the quality of the ST offerings and the integrity of their advertising.
I browse this site in order to read opinions from AR enthusiasts. i have read good things about Spikes but you dont seem to share that opinion. You as a dealer do not seem to recommend the Spikes brand and have tested Spikes products with what I guess were negative results. As a prospective customer, I am simply trying to nail down your opinion of Spikes products as plainly as you express your opinions of BCM and Colt .
If you cant express yourself plainly due to legal constraints.. or professional ethics I understand and will cease this line of questioning.
I browse this site in order to read opinions from AR enthusiasts. i have read good things about Spikes but you dont seem to share that opinion. You as a dealer do not seem to recommend the Spikes brand and have tested Spikes products with what I guess were negative results. As a prospective customer, I am simply trying to nail down your opinion of Spikes products as plainly as you express your opinions of BCM and Colt .
This a no brainier. Everyone has heard of Colt (easier to re-sell) and the 6933 is one of the best SBR's made. Go with it.
C4
Grand58742
03-14-14, 20:55
Weren't those Bushmaster barrels shot out before they even reached the 6K mark?
I don't remember exactly and would have to look it over again. I think you're right though with the steel jacket stuff.
HackerF15E
03-14-14, 21:09
Weren't those Bushmaster barrels shot out before they even reached the 6K mark?
Most important to that part of the discussion is the high rate of fire in that test (and the resultant increased wear from shooting through a very-hot barrel).
Many folks erroneously pin the "shot out at 6k" datapoint only on the use of bimetal projectiles, and completely ignore the far-more-important heat factor.
Even a 4150 CMV barrel can wear out before 6K if the conditions are right:
http://nyti.ms/19541Y8
quaesitor logica
03-14-14, 21:39
This a no brainier. Everyone has heard of Colt (easier to re-sell) and the 6933 is one of the best SBR's made. Go with it.
C4
As you have declined to acknowledge my request for clarification regarding Spikes Tactical, I take you have nothing concrete and that your comments stem more from a business/ financial standpoint than a real quality issue. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, chalk it up merchandising warfare S.O.P. in modern America.
I agree that the Colt 6933 is a "no-brainer" IF I was worried about resale. Besides rare out of production collectors items, mass produced firearms are a poor investment. Add to that the difficulties and extra $200 cost provided by the ATF in selling a controlled item, this makes considering "resale value" as a factor in purchasing an SBR a "wash" at best IMO.
Regardless of your business bias, you know your stuff and your recommendation of the 6933 is appreciated.
As you have declined to acknowledge my request for clarification regarding Spikes Tactical, I take you have nothing concrete and that your comments stem more from a business/ financial standpoint than a real quality issue. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, chalk it up merchandising warfare S.O.P. in modern America.
I agree that the Colt 6933 is a "no-brainer" IF I was worried about resale. Besides rare out of production collectors items, mass produced firearms are a poor investment. Add to that the difficulties and extra $200 cost provided by the ATF in selling a controlled item, this makes considering "resale value" as a factor in purchasing an SBR amatuer at best IMO.
Regardless of your business bias, you know your stuff and your recommendation of the 6933 is appreciated.
Please do not assume things you know nothing about.
At some point, you must ask yourself if the reward is worth the risk. I used to care that people were being mislead on their purchases (enough to pay retail for a companies product) just to see if they were lying or not. Then I discovered that most folks either wouldn't believe what I told them or were so married to their purchase that they would ignore my results. So why bother?
During times of panic Colt rifles seem to double or triple in value. This includes SBR's. I know that people always think they won't have to sell a gun, but from my experience (as a C3 dealer) they will (at some point).
Your money, do what you like.
C4
As you have declined to acknowledge my request for clarification regarding Spikes Tactical, I take you have nothing concrete and that your comments stem more from a business/ financial standpoint than a real quality issue
It's often a wiser course to say "This product is good" than to say "This product is crap"
During times of panic Colt rifles seem to double or triple in value. C4
Damn skippy...as Terry Peters once told me, "if it has a Pony it sells". 6920s were gong for $2200 all day long.
To continue this theme, Grant started a thread a few weeks ago about stocking up on potential gun related "ban" items while prices were back down to earth. The 6920 might be the quintessential "ban" item from an investment perspective. At $900ish they provide one hell of a roi
quaesitor logica
03-15-14, 07:08
I'd strongly encourage you to ease off the throttle. You might want to re-read the M4C rules on bickering/baiting/instigating.
I was simply asking for clarification. I do not see how this was interpreted as bickering/baiting/instigating ( are vendors to be treated differently from run-of-the-mill members?). I could not draw a definitive conclusion from the information provided. I thought that was one of the things this forum was established for. Information about AR type rifles/carbines.
I know I have been questioned a lot more rudely on this site and even personally insulted with no spontaneous mod assistance. Given this threshold and keeping my comments civilized and logical, it was not my intention to ruffle any feathers. If my comments were taken as an offense, they certainly were not meant by to convey offense.
My apologies to C4Grant.
Damn skippy...as Terry Peters once told me, "if it has a Pony it sells". 6920s were gong for $2200 all day long.
To continue this theme, Grant started a thread a few weeks ago about stocking up on potential gun related "ban" items while prices were back down to earth. The 6920 might be the quintessential "ban" item from an investment perspective. At $900ish they provide one hell of a roi
I actually saw some of them reach into the high $3k's.
C
I was simply asking for clarification. I do not see how this was interpreted as bickering/baiting/instigating ( are vendors to be treated differently from run-of-the-mill members?). I could not draw a definitive conclusion from the information provided. I thought that was one of the things this forum was established for. Information about AR type rifles/carbines.
I know I have been questioned a lot more rudely on this site and even personally insulted with no spontaneous mod assistance. Given this threshold and keeping my comments civilized and logical, it was not my intention to ruffle any feathers. If my comments were taken as an offense, they certainly were not meant by to convey offense.
My apologies to C4Grant.
Not everything needs a PUBLIC answer. You were given many hints and advised to do your own research (don't just read what the manufacturer puts on their website). You then made false statements about our business and motives. This grabbed the attention of the MOD (who was just doing their job).
The best way to put it, is this. I have the financial means to buy ANY AR I want. I know quite a bit about where companies get parts, what parts they make themselves, how well they do QC, etc, etc. All of my personally owned AR's come from the likes of Colt, Noveske, BCM, KAC and DD. This should give you plenty of info to make a sound judgement.
C4
Press Check
03-15-14, 15:38
I actually saw some of them reach into the high $3k's.
C
Yep, they sure did.
Beat Trash
03-15-14, 15:41
Reading this makes me glad I bought a 6920 two weeks ago. Everyone complains about the cosmetics of a colt and mine isn't a perfect looking specimen either but if it's built to last that makes me happy enough.
you have a right to be happy with your choice of a carbine. You chose well in my opinion.
Performance is important. I recently had a similar discussion with my teenage son. I am giving him his first carbine, a Colt 6920 with MagPul furniture and an Aimpoint PRO. He has some buddies with carbines that look like the poster gun of the week from the other site. I made him promise to leave his gun as is for the time being. Learn to shoot it as is. His buddies already have had reliability issues on the range. I told my son to just smile as his gun keeps shooting and shooting, while the guns that "are just as good as a Colt but cheaper" choke...
I currently carry a DDM4V5LW at work as my Patrol Rifle. But I still own a couple of 6920's.
Not that it matters much, but the finish on the ones that have passed through my hands were all acceptable. If you told me I had to limit myself to a 6920 for the duration of my time on this earth, I would be ok with that.
Press Check
03-15-14, 16:27
Not that it matters much, but the finish on the ones that have passed through my hands were all acceptable.
As were mine, and I owned three; a 6940, 6921, and a 6920.
quaesitor logica
03-15-14, 16:48
Not everything needs a PUBLIC answer. You were given many hints and advised to do your own research (don't just read what the manufacturer puts on their website). You then made false statements about our business and motives. This grabbed the attention of the MOD (who was just doing their job).
The best way to put it, is this. I have the financial means to buy ANY AR I want. I know quite a bit about where companies get parts, what parts they make themselves, how well they do QC, etc, etc. All of my personally owned AR's come from the likes of Colt, Noveske, BCM, KAC and DD. This should give you plenty of info to make a sound judgement.
C4
I own/have owned Noveske, DD, BCM and KAC components/rifles. They are known entities and I can judge for myself what criticisms are true/prevalent or a rare occurrence. I have handled a few ST weapons and components and they seemed well built and the owners were happy with their purchase. I have read alot of reviews about ST and they are not without fault but the good overwhelmingly outweighs the bad. You are the first vendor I have seen that has called many things ST into question, I thought it was a rare opportunity to get some detailed insight to the "bad" from a person that sees more weapons than most people.
What I posted about your motives in your criticism of Spikes was just my take on things ( opinion based on the only info available to me) and I thought I made that clear
As you have declined to acknowledge my request for clarification regarding Spikes Tactical, I take..... I rarely see criticism allowed to stand in this forum without facts and proof being demanded and I really wanted to know ( unbiased opinion) what I should beware of with ST products. I am not sure how to engage you without "crossing the line" so I'll just drop it and thank you for your input.
I'm glad I came here to m4carbine.net to do my research. Colt 6920 is simply a no-brainer at todays prices. Listen to Grant, he will not take you down the wrong path.
Tzintzuntzan
03-15-14, 19:18
Many folks erroneously pin the "shot out at 6k" datapoint only on the use of bimetal projectiles, and completely ignore the far-more-important heat factor.
Even a 4150 CMV barrel can wear out before 6K if the conditions are right:
http://nyti.ms/19541Y8
According to Bushmaster their barrels are made out of 4150 but even if they do make them or source them from that steel the barrels are still crap. My guess is the Bushmaster barrels were trashed because they're trash to begin with so being run hard any exacerbates the issue.
Beat Trash
03-15-14, 20:47
Damn skippy...as Terry Peters once told me, "if it has a Pony it sells". 6920s were gong for $2200 all day long.
To continue this theme, Grant started a thread a few weeks ago about stocking up on potential gun related "ban" items while prices were back down to earth. The 6920 might be the quintessential "ban" item from an investment perspective. At $900ish they provide one hell of a roi
Any chance of a link to this?
Bushmaster is yesterday's news.
Nowadays on most gun forums its all "my spikes/PSA is better than/equal to Colt they are all milspec parts without brand name markups".
Any chance of a link to this?
$999 here http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/colt-6920-m-4-detail.html?Itemid=0
site vendor Grant has them for a dollar more. However, I did see them for $950 online in the last week or so, but can't recall where. Think there was a $50 coupon code involved.
Beat Trash
03-16-14, 15:25
Thanks, but I was asking about a Thread started by Grant a few weeks ago about things to buy now before the next ban. Tried a search, but no luck.
I found a rather spirited Thread started by Larry Vickers on stocking up on aluminum magazines. Not sure if this is the one referred to.
Packing a 45
03-17-14, 06:00
No but you could sell crap to the goobers who are telling you that 380 is the most powerful hand gun round in the world and he seen proof of it on written on a shit house wall, and besides his uncle father shot his little pinkie off with a 16" middy on his PPk. I don't get out much. Vern
Pretty sure it was LPK's and BCG's.
Thanks, but I was asking about a Thread started by Grant a few weeks ago about things to buy now before the next ban. Tried a search, but no luck.
I found a rather spirited Thread started by Larry Vickers on stocking up on aluminum magazines. Not sure if this is the one referred to.
Grand58742
03-17-14, 09:43
Thanks, but I was asking about a Thread started by Grant a few weeks ago about things to buy now before the next ban. Tried a search, but no luck.
I found a rather spirited Thread started by Larry Vickers on stocking up on aluminum magazines. Not sure if this is the one referred to.
The LAV thread is the one we're talking about I think.
In summary, now is the time to stock up on "stuff." Parts, mags, ammo, it's all at or near pre-panic levels and now is the time to buy and not get caught flat footed during the next scare.
LAV....Grant....maybe it was LAV, but you get the idea
quaesitor logica
03-17-14, 11:36
Damn skippy...as Terry Peters once told me, "if it has a Pony it sells". 6920s were gong for $2200 all day long.
To continue this theme, Grant started a thread a few weeks ago about stocking up on potential gun related "ban" items while prices were back down to earth. The 6920 might be the quintessential "ban" item from an investment perspective. At $900ish they provide one hell of a roi
If profiting off the next "consumer demand increase" is the goal then I would think that purchasing 20 or 30 complete blemished lowers for about $160 each from P.S.A would provide a superior ROI. During the height of the last consumer panic a blemished complete lower was fetching up an easy $650 and up. You could easily quadruple your investment instead of merely doubling it. As far as complete rifles go S&W and SIG AR's were providing the best ROI as I recall.
After-all, the main force behind the surge of panic driven consumer demand was made of first time buyers.
brickboy240
03-17-14, 14:47
Nice review!
I am so, so, SOOO glad I read up (on here...mostly) and saved my pennies and bought the Colt 6920. The thing just flat out runs and other than the Aimpoint Pro and Blue Force Gear sling...mine is bone stock.
A bargain for what you get. I might buy a second this year...just to have a back up.
-brickboy240
Beat Trash
03-17-14, 15:02
Nice review!
I am so, so, SOOO glad I read up (on here...mostly) and saved my pennies and bought the Colt 6920. The thing just flat out runs and other than the Aimpoint Pro and Blue Force Gear sling...mine is bone stock.
A bargain for what you get. I might buy a second this year...just to have a back up.
-brickboy240
This is the exact setup I am giving to my son on Wednesday.
As for the thread on stocking up now, thanks all. Been quietly doing this, and will continue throughout the year.
The current pricing on the Colt 6920 is making me think about picking up a few spare carbines also...
brickboy240
03-17-14, 15:10
Hell...Wal Mart near my home has several 6920s at around 1040 a pop.
Hard to not buy an extra....that old "two is one" mantra, you know.
Yes...my 6920 with the Aimpoint works just fine for me. I love the set up and really don't want anything else on my gun but that and a sling. Odd..I know...but I really like keeping it simple and rugged.
I have beaten the snot out of the Aimpoint Pro - it has sat out in the rain and ridden through the mud and sand on the ATV for days and I have not had to adjust the zero since I mounted the thing. Gotta love Swedish engineering!
The great thing about the Colt 6920 is that it is not tons more expensive than the cheapo lower ARs. A couple of hundred dollars separate them. Unlike 1911s where a Springfield or Colt is 800-1000 and the really good ones (Wilson, Nighthawk etc.) are 3 grand or more.
There is no excuse to buy the crappier ARs....period.
-brickboy240
-brickboy240
3ACR_Scout
03-17-14, 17:45
Any chance of a link to this?
I almost can't believe how low DSG's price is on the base model 6920 - $899 as of today (17 Mar):
http://dsgarms.com/co6920
I'm kicking myself that I can't afford it at the moment. May have to sell some things off to raise the money...
I appreciate Grant's efforts to carry only the best quality products to serve LE and military. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the military don't know much about the civilian market and, leading busy lives, aren't willing to take the time to do a lot of research. As already mentioned, they go to a shop and buy a name they've heard of (almost none of them have heard of BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, or KAC) or they pick whatever the dealer recommends. I had several conversations over the last month with an Army buddy who wants an "affordable" AR with a "heavy barrel" and keeps showing me DMPS, Bushmaster, and other online prices. I told him several times to just walk into Walmart and buy a 6920, but it still just sounds too expensive to him. I most recently sent him the links to this 6920 review and this forum, and I'm going to leave it at that, since it doesn't look like I'm getting anywhere.
Dave
If I didnt find my ddm4 on sale I would have picked up a 6920 for sure.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
I stick to Colt mostly because it takes the guess work out of my purchase. It's a Colt, done deal.
I'm not at all surprised that it runs well.
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