View Full Version : Colt AR-15 A4 or BCM 20 A4 Rifle?
I'm looking to pick up a new 20" AR -15. Not sure which one of these to get. The BCM is about $75 more than the Colt. I believe they are equal in quality(TDP). Is the only difference the brand name and logo or am I missing something here? Which would you get and why?
Tzintzuntzan
03-10-14, 22:15
I'm looking to pick up a new 20" AR -15. Not sure which one of these to get. The BCM is about $75 more than the Colt. I believe they are equal in quality(TDP). Is the only difference the brand name and logo or am I missing something here? Which would you get and why?
The Colt FSB isn't F height it is A2 height so if you ever want to change out the carry handle for a useful rear iron sight you'll want to make sure it is compatible. Personally for this reason I'd just give your money to Paul/BCM. Also I believe BCM uses the Magpul MOE rifle stock now so if you like that stock you might want to buy the BCM.
The Colt FSB isn't F height it is A2 height so if you ever want to change out the carry handle for a useful rear iron sight you'll want to make sure it is compatible. Personally for this reason I'd just give your money to Paul/BCM. Also I believe BCM uses the Magpul MOE rifle stock now so if you like that stock you might want to buy the BCM.
A buis and a colt carry handle are the same height.
A buis and a colt carry handle are the same height.
So I would have no issue running a rear Troy buis on the Colt?
If your getting that type of rifle why not just run a set of national match sights like what it's built for?
Whats the rifle for? That's the most important question. Do you want a military clone, or are you planning on putting some parts on it?
I would buy the BCM, and I did recently buy the BCM 20" upper assembly for a rifle build. Or wait for Colt to ship A4's with the correct FSB and post.
Whats the rifle for? That's the most important question. Do you want a military clone, or are you planning on putting some parts on it?
It's for the range and a little hunting. I'll ocassionaly use an aimpoint and a 3-10x sightron SIII. Mainly will use the irons,troy and or A2 carry handle.
I currently have a BCM BFH 16" lw middy with a Fortis 12" keymod, BCM 16" govt. profile middy with an MI free float rail and a Spikes 16" chf middy with MOE handguard. They are my SHTF guns,I have weapon lights,lasers and aimpoint micro's on them. The 20" will probably keep the standard hand guards and I have no plans of even putting a light on it. I just really like the look of the A4 rifles.
It's for the range and a little hunting. I'll ocassionaly use an aimpoint and a 3-10x sightron SIII. Mainly will use the irons,troy and or A2 carry handle.
That's a weird gun for those uses. Something with an accurate, free floated barrel would serve much better.
IMO, the A4 is not good for anything but looking cool.
I used my Colt Competition HBar in the same configuration for hunting. Only problem I had with it is the front sight got in the way of the optic
That's a weird gun for those uses. Something with an accurate, free floated barrel would serve much better.
IMO, the A4 is not good for anything but looking cool.
I agree. The only reason I would buy one would be to stick it in the safe, and for that reason I would choose the Colt. For your stated purposes, I think you would be better served with a different rifle.
Yeah. Because having that muzzle velocity and sight radius really sucks. I like my home built AR15A5 and would put it against any rifle out there.
That's a weird gun for those uses. Something with an accurate, free floated barrel would serve much better.
IMO, the A4 is not good for anything but looking cool.
Tzintzuntzan
03-11-14, 17:34
Yeah. Because having that muzzle velocity and sight radius really sucks. I like my home built AR15A5 and would put it against any rifle out there.
I also see no downside to a higher velocity in a targety gun, I mean, isn't that kind of the point?
wildcard600
03-11-14, 17:53
I vote for BCM after seeing the disappointing FN and Colt 20" offerings.
i really wanted a colt too.
I vote for BCM after seeing the disappointing FN and Colt 20" offerings.
i really wanted a colt too.
I've heard about the FN falling short of what the BCM and Colt are offering,but is there something wrong with the Colt?
M-FOURTEEN
03-11-14, 22:02
Almost bought a BCM, but just couldn't do it. They build fine rifles, but at the end of the day it's hard to deny a Colt.
It's also nice seeing 'AR15A4' proudly stamped on the rifle. The libs really hate that word.
It's for the range and a little hunting. I'll ocassionaly use an aimpoint and a 3-10x sightron SIII. Mainly will use the irons,troy and or A2 carry handle.
Yeah. Because having that muzzle velocity and sight radius really sucks. I like my home built AR15A5 and would put it against any rifle out there.
I didn't say anything about wanting less velocity and sight radius, but a chrome-lined non-floated barrel ain't exactly tits in 2014.
Range plinking with a 2-4moa military barrel just ain't fun for long and if you want to be a responsible hunter, good hits are important...
Why wouldn't it be fun? With good ammo my rifle is well capable of hitting out to 500M without a problem. I don't hunt animals. Your post doesn't make any sense.
I didn't say anything about wanting less velocity and sight radius, but a chrome-lined non-floated barrel ain't exactly tits in 2014.
Range plinking with a 2-4moa military barrel just ain't fun for long and if you want to be a responsible hunter, good hits are important...
I currently have a BCM BFH 16" lw middy with a Fortis 12" keymod, BCM 16" govt. profile middy with an MI free float rail and a Spikes 16" chf middy with MOE handguard. With that being said:
I've had a few people suggest that I go with the 16" SS410 from BCM. I was told it would be more accurate than my current uppers. How would the accuracy be compared to the standard 20"? Could I run a fixed stock with it?
I've had a few people suggest that I go with the 16" SS410 from BCM. I was told it would be more accurate than my current uppers. How would the accuracy be compared to the standard 20"? Could I run a fixed stock with it?
No reason you couldn't run a fixed stock on it, one.
Two, it is very possible it could be more accurate than the 20 inch barrel, especaily if we are comparing a gov barrel to the stainless. Accuracy isn't measured by the length of the barrel. Extra length is only going to guarantee more velocity, to a point, and many here feel that there is no real reason to go to 20 inch barrels for 90% of builds and uses.
There was a member here that was able to keep all rounds on a steel IPSC target at 600 yards using a BCM 20 inch A4 and an ACOG.
Hill_Country556
03-23-14, 00:58
I recently purchased the BCM A4 Mod 1 from G&R Tactical. It's an outstanding rifle in every way. You would not be disappointed with that choice. 24604
BrigandTwoFour
03-23-14, 08:52
I don't think you could really go wrong with either. They are both known quality made by people who know what they're doing.
Failure2Stop
03-23-14, 09:10
There was a member here that was able to keep all rounds on a steel IPSC target at 600 yards using a BCM 20 inch A4 and an ACOG.
That only requires a 3 MOA system and a good wind-call.
+1 on the good wind call...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSHlofN5EAU
Must Look Kewl!
M-FOURTEEN
03-25-14, 09:20
Fired 330rds of M855 through my new Colt AR15A4 this weekend. Functioned flawlessly, and had no accuracy trouble with the non F marked FSB.
GREAT RIFLE.
IMO, the A4 is not good for anything but looking cool.
Really? Maybe you should conduct a seance and see if any one of the 1000's of bad guys that have been smoke checked by Marines just looking cool with the A4 the past 10+ years agrees with you.
As far as Colt v.s. BCM. They both put out a high quality product. It just depends on which roll mark you prefer and who you wish to support with your hard earned money. Colt not putting the proper FSB on the initial run of A4's was certainly enough to put off many and rightly so. I've personally handled and fired a few BCM A4's and they are squared away Rifles. Very smooth and very accurate....even make a NSF look good :cool:
For practical use guns I prefer BCM, but I would only buy an A4 for the "cool factor" (I guess that's the term I would use, there's probably a better way to say what I mean) and to be used as a range gun. Due to these reasons I would buy the Colt. I'm not saying that the A4 is a bad rifle or that it's not at all practical, just that I believe that there are other better rifle setups to suit my needs but YMMV.
Levi
I went with the 20" BCM.
I bought one for the same reasons as you. BCM stripped 20 in upper with LMT BCG, MOE handguards (b/c i did put a scout mount+light on it), plus a shaved down AFG. Mated to an LMT Defender lower with Vltor A1-length fixed stock and H3 buffer.
Runs like a clock and hits wherever it's aimed. but it is a little less convenient to get in and out of a car ;)
enjoy!
Really? Maybe you should conduct a seance and see if any one of the 1000's of bad guys that have been smoke checked by Marines just looking cool with the A4 the past 10+ years agrees with you.
Yep. My unit was one of the last active duty Army Infantry units to switch to the M4. In fact we did the invasion of Iraq and a tour there in 05 with M16A4s. We did pretty damn well with them.
Plus not all AOs in Iraq were urban. In 05 we were in east Iraq near the Iran border out in farm land. Lots of opportunities for long shots out there.
I have 3 16" midlength's as well as the 20" BCM. The 20" is a very smooth shooter and not really that heavy. I can definitely shoot it more accurately with iron's than my other uppers.
Yeah. Because having that muzzle velocity and sight radius really sucks. I like my home built AR15A5 and would put it against any rifle out there.
Yup. BCM A4 Upper, put the A5 Kit on the lower. If the velocity justification is there for the 20" rifle, this setup is unbeatable.
How did anyone ever hit anything without a FF rail in the past? :rolleyes:
How did anyone ever hit anything without a FF rail in the past? :rolleyes:
They called for close air support or artillery. :sarcastic:
I would buy the BCM, and I did recently buy the BCM 20" upper assembly for a rifle build. Or wait for Colt to ship A4's with the correct FSB and post.
Yea the issues being reported in the other thread put me off of the colt 20 for the time being. Seemed like they were shipping 3 versions. Correct f marked fsb, non f marked fsb with higher post, non f marked fsb with normal post. I expect better from them.
I will say I have 2 of the bcm 20 inch uppers. One is on a lower from a local ffl(made my mega) and the other is pretty much a complete bcm rifle(has an armalite a2 stock on it as the bcm lower really only came in m4 config at the time). I really like them. I assembled those guns waiting for a colt a4. At this point the colt would have just been to have one and maybe I will in the future. If I was buying another 2 inch gun today though I'd go with the BCM. I expect it to come with the correct parts on it.
Has anyone shot the 20" with an F marked FSB? Or one with a non F marked FSB? Seems to me, the F marked FSBs were developed to work on M4 carbines with the detachable carry handle. Didn't ARs come with the non F marked FSBs prior to that and didn't they work? Since the 20" uses a longer sight radius, a shorter sight would be needed to get the same angle of departure as the shorter barrel carbine
Thought I would give my 2 cents. I love my BCM eag carbine but would take either one. And if y'all didn't know colt makes the M4s for the military but NOT the M16A4 those are produced by FN. Just in case if somebody didn't know that. But I personally would take my BCM over any other.
M-FOURTEEN
03-26-14, 10:56
Has anyone shot the 20" with an F marked FSB? Or one with a non F marked FSB? Seems to me, the F marked FSBs were developed to work on M4 carbines with the detachable carry handle. Didn't ARs come with the non F marked FSBs prior to that and didn't they work? Since the 20" uses a longer sight radius, a shorter sight would be needed to get the same angle of departure as the shorter barrel carbine
Yes.
If the non F marked FSB was on a M4/Carbine it would be an issue. However, on a full length, 20'' A4, it is most definitely not an issue and will NOT effect the accuracy of the rifle.
M-FOURTEEN
03-26-14, 10:58
Thought I would give my 2 cents. I love my BCM eag carbine but would take either one. And if y'all didn't know colt makes the M4s for the military but NOT the M16A4 those are produced by FN. Just in case if somebody didn't know that. But I personally would take my BCM over any other.
Colt also produced M16A4's. I know several guys that were issued them in Iraq and the 'Stan.
Colt also produced M16A4's. I know several guys that were issued them in Iraq and the 'Stan.
Never seen one during my 5 years in the Marine Corps.
M-FOURTEEN
03-26-14, 11:43
Never seen one during my 5 years in the Marine Corps.
That's not surprising. FN by and large made 90% of them. But Colt A4's do exist, albeit very scarce.
All about the lowest bidder on everything.
M-FOURTEEN
03-26-14, 12:01
All about the lowest bidder on everything.
You are correct. Its dollars and cents, not dollars and sense.
I had been wanting an A4 version for years and when it came down to nut cutting time, it was down to Colt and BCM for me. FN makes great gear and i'm sure the FN15 would be no different, but i don't want an FN AR15, for the same reason i probably wouldn't want a Colt 'SCAR'.
Yeap thats why I went with bcm provides me with a familiar platform of a weapon but different brand that I honestly think highly for. I like my bcm more than the m4s and a4s I used in the corps.
youreacrab
03-28-14, 10:29
Does anyone know the material composition of the BCM receiver extension? I wrote to BCM several times but they did not respond.
Does anyone know the material composition of the BCM receiver extension?
It's mil spec 7000 series alloy.
buckkiller35
03-28-14, 20:37
You are correct. Its dollars and cents, not dollars and sense.
I had been wanting an A4 version for years and when it came down to nut cutting time, it was down to Colt and BCM for me. FN makes great gear and i'm sure the FN15 would be no different, but i don't want an FN AR15, for the same reason i probably wouldn't want a Colt 'SCAR'.
I've heard that the specs of the FN15 fall short of the BCM and the COLT.
I'd go Colt personally, but I am sure the BCM is just fine.
spearpoint
03-29-14, 00:38
[...] Is the only difference the brand name and logo [...]?
Were that the case, the Colt would be the more expensive, and by more than $75...
I would go with the BCM.
Yep. My unit was one of the last active duty Army Infantry units to switch to the M4. In fact we did the invasion of Iraq and a tour there in 05 with M16A4s. We did pretty damn well with them.
Plus not all AOs in Iraq were urban. In 05 we were in east Iraq near the Iran border out in farm land. Lots of opportunities for long shots out there.
When did your unit get M4's? I got to my unit in MAR of 08 and they still had A4's haha. Right before we deployed in JUN of 08 supply showed up with an LMTV full of BNIB M4's.
I would go with the BCM.
When did your unit get M4's? I got to my unit in MAR of 08 and they still had A4's haha. Right before we deployed in JUN of 08 supply showed up with an LMTV full of BNIB M4's.
When I got out in 06 only squad leaders and above had M4s. But from friends pictures of later deployments they had M4s. So probably switched right around the same time.
Wolfhound86
03-29-14, 11:47
Never seen one during my 5 years in the Marine Corps.
When I was in Iraq in 07 and 09 Iraqi Army carried Colt A4s.
buckkiller35
05-25-14, 22:19
Were that the case, the Colt would be the more expensive, and by more than $75...
Then what are the differences?
Was at my LGS this weekend and played with a just arrived Colt A4, and the front sight is still not of the F-marked variety.
Was at my LGS this weekend and played with a just arrived Colt A4, and the front sight is still not of the F-marked variety.
That is odd, the A4 I got in late august has the F marked front sight base.
The Colt is nice, but right now it would be insane to skip on the BCM deal. No reason to pay extra for the Pony like I did, unless you don't already own a Colt.
buckkiller35
11-16-14, 20:36
I believe Grant from G&R Tactical has the F marked fsb Colt's.
In posts on this forum and in others, Colt sometimes gets the nod because they own the TDP, but it seems to me that the AR15A4 deviates from MIL-SPEC enough (trigger group aside, but some F-marked FSBs and some not, lower receiver shelf, etc.) that you would seem to have to take it on faith that the TDP is followed for the rest -- and maybe only with respect to common parts and processes? Maybe that is too pessimistic, but it is hard to pin Colt down on these things and they certainly could have multiple lines. I wanted to get a Colt AR15A4 but the inconsistency with the FSB kind of bothers me. BCM seems like a popular alternative, but how close is BCM to the military version (again, trigger group aside) compared to Colt and has BCM been able to reverse engineer the TDP close enough to follow or improve upon the current TDP? I have seen older Bushmaster A2s that come close in some ways, but off in others (finish, BCGs, etc.) and not all of those things are apparent -- even from specs. And things like lot testing and inspection versus item testing and inspection seems like a bid area of difference. If my LGS had the F marked Colt, I would probably get it anyway, but does it really matter if I can get a BCM -- other than the Pony?
youreacrab
12-05-14, 07:03
One difference between the 2 might be the receiver extension. I haven't seen any indication that BCM uses a 7075 alloy rifle RE.
Compare the BCM, Colt, and DPMS rifle REs, and I'll think you'll find the Colt to stand out. I'm basing this off the part that BCM sells, which I assume is the same on they install on their rifle. I could be wrong, but the pictures on BCMs website show they're both the "shiny" type.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Receiver-Extension-for-M16-Rifle-p/receiver%20extension%20m16%20rifle.htm
One difference between the 2 might be the receiver extension. I haven't seen any indication that BCM uses a 7075 alloy rifle RE.
Compare the BCM, Colt, and DPMS rifle REs, and I'll think you'll find the Colt to stand out. I'm basing this off the part that BCM sells, which I assume is the same on they install on their rifle. I could be wrong, but the pictures on BCMs website show they're both the "shiny" type.
The specs on BCM's & G & R's website say that the RE is 7075.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=A4-870-212
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_sam_rifle.php
youreacrab
12-05-14, 07:54
Good point. Guess the one they sell as a part could be different. Having used the BCM RE sold as a part, I have my doubts as to whether that is 7075.
The specs on BCM's & G & R's website say that the RE is 7075.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=A4-870-212
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_sam_rifle.php
Either way, you will be getting a quality rifle. Do what works best for you, not someone else.
Flankenstein
01-28-15, 12:47
One difference between the 2 might be the receiver extension. I haven't seen any indication that BCM uses a 7075 alloy rifle RE.
Compare the BCM, Colt, and DPMS rifle REs, and I'll think you'll find the Colt to stand out. I'm basing this off the part that BCM sells, which I assume is the same on they install on their rifle. I could be wrong, but the pictures on BCMs website show they're both the "shiny" type.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Receiver-Extension-for-M16-Rifle-p/receiver%20extension%20m16%20rifle.htm
What about the RE here? Anybody know what type of alloy?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-M16-A2-Rifle-Stock-Kit-p/stock%20a2%20kit%20-%20black.htm
I had a 20" BCM upper that I just recently sold. I purchased it before the AR-15A4s were out when I decided I wanted a 20". I did not compare it to a Colt side by side, but from holding both and examining each, I did not notice a difference in quality one way or the other, though the Colt did just kind of jump out at me for some reason, probably just "pony lust" for the authenticity of the brand.
I sold my BCM 20" upper because down the line I would rather have the Colt. Not far any reason associated with quality or performance, but because I just did not shoot the 20" all that much and if I am going to own one, I would like the more authentic Colt for collector's and namesake. I love BCM and own other products of theirs that I would highly recommend, but that was my reasoning for siding with the Colt in this instance.
It being shiny has nothing to do with anything. Even the Colt military rifle extensions I saw were shiny. It would make no sense at all for them to source a 7075 extension and then a different one for retail sale.
Good point. Guess the one they sell as a part could be different. Having used the BCM RE sold as a part, I have my doubts as to whether that is 7075.
Flankenstein
01-28-15, 16:23
It being shiny has nothing to do with anything. Even the Colt military rifle extensions I saw were shiny. It would make no sense at all for them to source a 7075 extension and then a different one for retail sale.
My thoughts also. Can anyone confirm though? If not, I'll just try calling tomorrow.
This is being overthought way too much.
My thoughts also. Can anyone confirm though? If not, I'll just try calling tomorrow.
Flankenstein
01-28-15, 17:18
This is being overthought way too much.
I don't think that I am putting all that much thought into it. I want to order an A2 rifle stock kit when they are back in stock and I want to make sure the RE is 7075.
It would make no sense for BCM to source different RE's of different material. Additionally, even if it was 6061 and not 7075, it wouldn't matter because the entire design is different than that of a carbine receiver extension. Once it is torqued into place it's not going anywhere and doesn't have the some rotational forces applied to it.
I don't think that I am putting all that much thought into it. I want to order an A2 rifle stock kit when they are back in stock and I want to make sure the RE is 7075.
IGunz, I saw a 20 inch Colt at Merchant with Magpul furniture in FDE that looked pretty cool.
Not as cool mine. :)
IGunz, I saw a 20 inch Colt at Merchant with Magpul furniture in FDE that looked pretty cool.
BCM does do some strange things sometimes when it comes to individual pieces. For example, BCM ships all BCGs with a full auto style firing pin. However, all "BCM" firing pins sold individually on their website are the semi auto style firing pins (why on earth would they source 2 different pins?). Also, all of the carbine receiver extensions that ive seen on their complete lowers look great. Conversely, ive gotten some ratty receiver extensions (some have even been canted) when ive purchased individual bcm receiver extensions. Im a big fan of BCM and I own a lot of their stuff, but ive been a little perplexed by some of the individual items ive received. It makes sense to examine and research.
Flankenstein
01-29-15, 11:03
BCM does do some strange things sometimes when it comes to individual pieces. For example, BCM ships all BCGs with a full auto style firing pin. However, all "BCM" firing pins sold individually on their website are the semi auto style firing pins (why on earth would they source 2 different pins?).
Good question.
Also, all of the carbine receiver extensions that ive seen on their complete lowers look great. Conversely, ive gotten some ratty receiver extensions (some have even been canted) when ive purchased individual bcm receiver extensions. Im a big fan of BCM and I own a lot of their stuff, but ive been a little perplexed by some of the individual items ive received.
Canted RE? Yikes. I think I've ordered about 5 carbine REs from BCM and they have all been as advertised and expected. Not going out of your way to be clear about the materials used in parts and just saying "mil-spec" is a PSA move and I expect way more out of a description on BCM's website. How many of yours have been "ratty"?
It makes sense to examine and research.
Absolutely. Not sure what the fuss is about.
3 out of 6ish were either noticeably canted, very slightly canted, or had pronounced and nasty machine marks on them. The other 3 were just fine. 2 of the 3 "faulty" RE's were still usable (one had slight cant and the machine marks on the other didn't affect function etc). Still, they didn't look near as nice as the RE's that came on the BCM complete lowers ive seen...which, to be fair, all looked fantastic. But again, my bcm rifles are extremely reliable. its not my intention to bash bcm, just to mention a few things and underscore what some have said. Definitely doesn't hurt to research and critically examine pieces etc.
Flankenstein
01-30-15, 13:58
Couldn't get through on the phone. Email was literally responded to within 10 seconds though.
Hi Xxxx,
All BCM® components are made to explicit milspec per TDP. Buffer tubes are made from 7075 forgings.
Please do not hesitate to email is with any additional questions.
The only time I have ever seen a "canted" receiver extension was when it was installed. I have yet to see one machined incorrectly in such a manner. And I believe that the TM allows for a 1/16 of an inch variation when torquing the receiver extension onto the lower.
3 out of 6ish were either noticeably canted, very slightly canted, or had pronounced and nasty machine marks on them. The other 3 were just fine. 2 of the 3 "faulty" RE's were still usable (one had slight cant and the machine marks on the other didn't affect function etc). Still, they didn't look near as nice as the RE's that came on the BCM complete lowers ive seen...which, to be fair, all looked fantastic. But again, my bcm rifles are extremely reliable. its not my intention to bash bcm, just to mention a few things and underscore what some have said. Definitely doesn't hurt to research and critically examine pieces etc.
Hell, and I thought rifle-length AR's were just for us old farts. (I''ll be 55 in June, so I can legally soil myself in public :D).
The only time I have ever seen a "canted" receiver extension was when it was installed. I have yet to see one machined incorrectly in such a manner. And I believe that the TM allows for a 1/16 of an inch variation when torquing the receiver extension onto the lower.
Yeah, its kinda hard to tell until the RE is installed. I initially thought it was me. I installed, took down, and then re installed the RE. It was somewhat canted every time (it doesn't look just ridiculous, but just racking the charging handle caused the hard lube to wear off in certain spots in the tube and caused some galling on the back of the carrier. I feel additional resistance when racking the charging handle etc.). I decided to send my colt lower and bcm RE to a shop that is known for doing excellent work and charging way too much for that excellent work (I wanted it to be right and to be done with it). The lower came back with the RE canted :/ lol! What a pain in the butt.
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