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SMGLee
03-13-14, 23:21
I took a few pictures of a MP7, I figure I post it for everyone to enjoy

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130088.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130088.jpg)

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130086.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130086.jpg)
Griffon Industry Suppressor shroud with Haley Strategic throntail mount and WML-HSP

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130090.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130090.jpg)
Laser Device DBAL-I2

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130093.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130093.jpg)

Dmaynor
03-14-14, 01:50
Nice, how did you get that? How did you get ammo for it? How much is the ammo? What's the recoil like?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Arctic1
03-14-14, 05:40
Very light recoil, very controllable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5JcSkxF1lQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvcqeC-SLvc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLbf9A3T97M

TXinfidel
03-14-14, 06:25
Oddly enough, I saw a TON of the ammo at a local Academy here in Austin for sale. S&B brand, it confused me, I don't believe there is a US civi legal firearm in 4.6

fivepointoh
03-14-14, 10:50
Someday us lowly civvies may be able to own this :(

SMGLee
03-14-14, 12:44
Nice, how did you get that? How did you get ammo for it? How much is the ammo? What's the recoil like?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gun belongs to a local PD, the amo is not cheap, and the recoil is like a 22MAG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNN0UV7NmOk
This is a video of me shooting LAV's MP7 during a past Tac TV shoot in Los Angeles. Surefire can.

fourXfour
03-14-14, 20:12
I've tried googling it, what is the closest performing rimfire round to 4.6mm? I recall LAV saying it was a glorified 17HMR.

Is 17 Winchester Super Magnum close?

Rimfire is a little less regulated in California. Hopefully Umarex has something in the works.

El Cid
03-14-14, 20:49
Someday us lowly civvies may be able to own this :(

That would be an expensive weapon for collector purposes. I don't imagine they would be any more popular than other PDW's like the PS90. Cool toys but no practical purpose.

TXinfidel
03-15-14, 00:20
I had a friend over seas that used The Mp7 and Scar17 extensively. He said reliabilty was flawless and a short burst to the torso was always effective. He said specifically he could not remember an instance where a follow up burst was required. I'd kill to own one.

fourXfour
03-15-14, 01:01
I had a friend over seas that used The Mp7 and Scar17 extensively. He said reliabilty was flawless and a short burst to the torso was always effective. He said specifically he could not remember an instance where a follow up burst was required. I'd kill to own one.

That's pretty badass. Definitely what I would want in my video game/fantasy world.

TXinfidel
03-15-14, 01:27
As superior as 5.56 is even in short 10.5" guns, I still think somewhere there is a niche for PDWs in PDW/pistol chamberings. Ear pro or not, a 10.5" AR will ROCK YOUR SHIT when fired from inside a vehicle.

El Cid
03-15-14, 09:51
I had a friend over seas that used The Mp7 and Scar17 extensively. He said reliabilty was flawless and a short burst to the torso was always effective. He said specifically he could not remember an instance where a follow up burst was required. I'd kill to own one.

That's funny. I know someone who saw the opposite. They had several instances where the hadjis seemed annoyed at getting shot with the 4.6 and had to be put down by a 5.56.

TXinfidel
03-15-14, 23:28
That's funny. I know someone who saw the opposite. They had several instances where the hadjis seemed annoyed at getting shot with the 4.6 and had to be put down by a 5.56.

Technically a 42 round burst is still a burst. :jester: Who knows maybe he was lucky enough to sink one in the upper spine everytime. I know it has nowhere near the potential of 5.56, but Its plenty to kill a human.

fourXfour
03-16-14, 00:11
LAV's PDW episode from Season 1 of TAC TV. All of Season 1 is on YouTube now.

http://youtu.be/0Q8P7IQFb3E

TXinfidel
03-16-14, 11:24
[QUOTE=Dano5326;1877000]I know of no unit that uses mp7 and SCARs....

I believe a shot to the upper spine would have that efficacy but yes, ice picky is probably the best way to describe its method of wounding. Like I said, its no 5.56, but shot placement can remedy that.....Team 7 utilized many of MK-17s throughout Afghanistan, even as a DM gun.

El Cid
03-16-14, 12:04
I believe a shot to the upper spine would have that efficacy but yes, ice picky is probably the best way to describe its method of wounding. Like I said, its no 5.56, but shot placement can remedy that.....Team 7 utilized many of MK-17s throughout Afghanistan, even as a DM gun.
I suspect the point Dano is making is that the MP7 isn't issued to white SOF elements. I suppose there could be some bleed over OCONUS, and I know in the past the tier 1 guys have been augmented on deployments with white SOF guys (sort of an informal tryout)... So I'm not saying what your friend told you isn't true. But it runs counter to the information I received first hand.

Now an MP7 with a can would probably be a great tool for sentry removal. But the examples I was provided were in running gunfights where you typically can't take slow, deliberate CNS shots.

My initial comment was in response to people stateside wanting MP7's. Yes they would be cool toys but anyone with illusions of using them for HD is asking to be disappointed IMO. That's just in relation to terminal ballistics. Nevermind the cost of an HK and the hard to find ammo. The dudes issued MP7's are extreme performers who are going to get better results than us no matter the weapon used. Maybe Dano can correct me if I'm wrong (don't want to give away TTP's), but isn't the 300BLK intended to replace the 4.6?

TXinfidel
03-16-14, 12:24
I suspect the point Dano is making is that the MP7 isn't issued to white SOF elements. I suppose there could be some bleed over OCONUS, and I know in the past the tier 1 guys have been augmented on deployments with white SOF guys (sort of an informal tryout)... So I'm not saying what your friend told you isn't true. But it runs counter to the information I received first hand.

Now an MP7 with a can would probably be a great tool for sentry removal. But the examples I was provided were in running gunfights where you typically can't take slow, deliberate CNS shots.

My initial comment was in response to people stateside wanting MP7's. Yes they would be cool toys but anyone with illusions of using them for HD is asking to be disappointed IMO. That's just in relation to terminal ballistics. Nevermind the cost of an HK and the hard to find ammo. The dudes issued MP7's are extreme performers who are going to get better results than us no matter the weapon used. Maybe Dano can correct me if I'm wrong (don't want to give away TTP's), but isn't the 300BLK intended to replace the 4.6?

The information I have recieved is from a direct end user, that poked holes in people with the item. It is beyond a valid source of information. The comment was made that MP7s nor Mk-17s were utilized by any one unit, that is false.
Nowhere have I disputed the fact that 4.6 has less than desireable performance, in fact, I did just the opposite. HOWEVER, turning an amazingly controlable bullet hose of 4.6 on someone's torso at close range will kill them, that is the only thing I have stated.

RyanB
03-16-14, 13:09
I suspect that many different people have had different experiences with them, but what I've heard is that the MP7 is a poor killer when the target knows he's in a fight, but fine when he's staring into the dark thinking about the cock he got last Thursday.

If they would chamber them in something like 7.62x25 or 30 ARMCO I would love to have one.

TXinfidel
03-16-14, 13:17
LOL. Well reguardless, my agency would never buy them, and our MP5s collect dust. So best I could hope for is at a MG shoot having my way with one.

SMGLee
03-16-14, 13:47
Recent controlled ballistic test result in the L-Tech ammo being the best performer in the batch of fiver different ammo tested with 10% gel

LAV intorduced the L-Tech to the testing cadre at the local Metro PD that conducted the test. The L-Tech is loaded with the Barnes TSX and it is the heaviest of the lot tested.

Overall expansion is approximately .38" with 100% expansion, retain all of its weight and constant penetration @ 15", that is tested with four layers of denim.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/large/P1130099.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2014/huge/P1130099.jpg)

Mr blasty
03-16-14, 13:53
The information I have recieved is from a direct end user, that poked holes in people with the item. It is beyond a valid source of information. The comment was made that MP7s nor Mk-17s were utilized by any one unit, that is false.
Nowhere have I disputed the fact that 4.6 has less than desireable performance, in fact, I did just the opposite. HOWEVER, turning an amazingly controlable bullet hose of 4.6 on someone's torso at close range will kill them, that is the only thing I have stated.

Not sure if you're aware of who or what Dano is but as a heads up he's one of the ones who would be running such a combo if anyone was. If he says they aren't then they probably aren't.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

TXinfidel
03-16-14, 14:05
Not sure if you're aware of who or what Dano is but as a heads up he's one of the ones who would be running such a combo if anyone was. If he says they aren't then they probably aren't.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

I am not aware of anything about him, nor have I disrespected him in any way. That said, my statement stands, that at one point US SEALS/ NSW have employed the MK-17 heavily and at some point the MP7. Just so I am clear, is this what is being refuted?

RyanB
03-16-14, 14:52
Ok that ammo has my attention. That's shit hot performance.

sua175
03-16-14, 17:56
I know of some units outside of green and blue that have mp7's not sure how much they use them but I have seen them in the wild.

MP7 is definitely a niche weapon but it has it's place. Only have shot one once at a range but I would prefer one over a MP5sd.

For low vis PSD missions I couldn't imagine a better long arm than mp7. I wouldn't mind owning a MP7 if they were obtainable. I like the ideal of having a weapon like krinkov or mp7 in my arsenal to have all my bases covered.

Arctic1
03-16-14, 18:20
During a wound packing training block we did for some medics last year, before I got out, we shot tissue with all of our issued ammo types:

9x19mm
5.56x45mm
7.62x51mm
4.6mm

All are "green", ie contain no lead.

While the 4.6 cannot measure up to a 5.56 or 7.62, it did considerably better than a 9mm, and I was surprised at the amount of tissue damage seeing as I had read the less than stellar reports on performance.
Granted, this is highly subjective lacking scientific validity, as well as not having a lot of data on the 4.6 ammo we use (projectile weight, projectile type, projectile construction etc).

ETA:

Just checked the manual, and the ammo we use is a 2 gram/30 grain steel core projectile that looks like this:

http://imageshack.com/a/img835/6139/29f3.png

El Cid
03-16-14, 20:45
I am not aware of anything about him, nor have I disrespected him in any way. That said, my statement stands, that at one point US SEALS/ NSW have employed the MK-17 heavily and at some point the MP7. Just so I am clear, is this what is being refuted?
The only thing I raised an eyebrow at was your statement that:


I had a friend over seas that used The Mp7 and Scar17 extensively. He said reliabilty was flawless and a short burst to the torso was always effective. He said specifically he could not remember an instance where a follow up burst was required.

My reason for having trouble buying into that is that I know someone who is currently in the NSW unit that issues them and his words were the opposite - that the 4.6 doesn't get it done.

I'm sure it works sometimes - but suggesting it always worked raises a flag. Nothing personal - I'm not doubting your friend was in NSW. I just find it odd that his experience was the opposite of a guy I know is a face-shooter.

Sua, are you saying you saw MP7's outside JSOC, or just outside those 2 elements you mentioned. It wouldn't surprise me to see cross pollenation between black and white SOF, especially down range.

sua175
03-16-14, 22:56
Technically I saw them in a unit that is under JSOC. Before I got out I heard that all of regiment was replacing the mp5sd with mp7's. I was never a big fan of the mp5, not very ergonomic, dated design, lack of penetration of the 9mm. Plus the MP5sd HHC had in their arms room experienced stoppages when I saw them ran. I can't speak to the terminal ballistic effect of the 4.6 but you know what they saw... Shot placement. Logically I can't imagine HK designing a round that doesn't have the capability to incapacitate a human. I wouldn't mind someone like LAV doing a ballistics test with the mp7 compared to a mp5.

I have heard operators say they like it, they don't. It reminds of when the SCAR was being tested some liked it, some didn't.

I wouldn't want to raid a compound with a mp7 but for low vis missions I could see were this weapon could be useful. People need to realalize that a weapon is a tool to be used for a specific job there is no tool that can preform every task. Does any one here have real operational experience with a mp7? In a couple of years I should have access to this weapon and I will be testing it's capabilities thoroughly. The p90 was a joke but I think this might be a good PDW contender along with the krinkov.

But I can believe the info that artic1 posted, I beilive a 4.6 wound ballistics could be superior to 9mm.

TXinfidel
03-16-14, 23:46
[QUOTE=El Cid;1877023]I suspect the point Dano is making is that the MP7 isn't issued to white SOF elements. I suppose there could be some bleed over OCONUS, and I know in the past the tier 1 guys have been augmented on deployments with white SOF guys (sort of an informal tryout)... So I'm not saying what your friend told you isn't true. But it runs counter to the information I received first hand.QUOTE]

This is where I got confused then FYI.

Swamp Yankee
03-17-14, 09:29
I think Darryl Bolke mentioned this on another forum, but...

If H&K was to release a .45ACP factory SBR version that used HK45 magazines, I do not think they would be able to keep up with the demand.

sua175
03-17-14, 10:06
I suspect the point Dano is making is that the MP7 isn't issued to white SOF elements. I suppose there could be some bleed over OCONUS, and I know in the past the tier 1 guys have been augmented on deployments with white SOF guys (sort of an informal tryout)... So I'm not saying what your friend told you isn't true. But it runs counter to the information I received first hand.

Now an MP7 with a can would probably be a great tool for sentry removal. But the examples I was provided were in running gunfights where you typically can't take slow, deliberate CNS shots.

My initial comment was in response to people stateside wanting MP7's. Yes they would be cool toys but anyone with illusions of using them for HD is asking to be disappointed IMO. That's just in relation to terminal ballistics. Nevermind the cost of an HK and the hard to find ammo. The dudes issued MP7's are extreme performers who are going to get better results than us no matter the weapon used. Maybe Dano can correct me if I'm wrong (don't want to give away TTP's), but isn't the 300BLK intended to replace the 4.6?

Green and blue have to get support from outside their unit Becuase green and blue are small units and when they deploy they do not deploy as a whole. Or they need a form of support that cannot be preformed organically. So what usually happens is that for larger missions were a significant number of bodies are needed a ranger platoon or even a group dudes, will be used to pull outer cordon and security while green would assualt the actual OBJ, this is just an example. I know that green and blue have different selection process but there is no such thing as a informal "tryout". Now it just so happens that most of the shooters in Green come from the units who support them down range.

The reason why you see use of this weapon outside T1 units is Becuase of small joint stuff from guys across the SOF spectrum. I saw my first mp7 in the army in 2008. I don't know anyone who is currently on the seal teams but I thought that all or most of the teams had received the mp7. Also a lot of people think that all the seal teams are T1 and this is not true, the only T1 seal unit is what civilians like to call SEAL TEAM SIX or what people in SOF know as BLUE.

I use to have a TL that would jokingly refer to us as deltas bitches.

Like said above T1 units are small and they are required to keep a certain percent of bodies CONUS "on call"

SMGLee
03-17-14, 19:02
Only SEAL team with MP7 is Devgrp


I think Darryl Bolke mentioned this on another forum, but...

If H&K was to release a .45ACP factory SBR version that used HK45 magazines, I do not think they would be able to keep up with the demand.

That's called a complete redesign...

Hammer27
03-17-14, 19:45
Logically I can't imagine HK designing a round that doesn't have the capability to incapacitate a human. I wouldn't mind someone like LAV doing a ballistics test with the mp7 compared to a mp5.

Close to what you want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q8P7IQFb3E&list=UU0zNoCMMiPEAst0JrwUht0w

mdoan300
04-01-14, 17:35
Will HK finally bring a civilian version over as the HK97: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/01/hk-97-civilian-mp7/

EDIT: GD it, I hate Apr 1...

dushan
04-01-14, 19:11
mdoan300 - When I read it this morning, I believed it for second.

I was even going to post it on HKPRO

Then I remembered the date...

trackmagic
10-10-14, 00:39
I find it humorous that the ONLY 2 US users of the MP7 listed on Wikipedia is:
United States NSW DEV GROUP (SEAL Team 6)
&
Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety in California:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7

Those must be some BAMF Tier 1 super cops in Sunnyvale

call_me_ski
10-10-14, 02:45
there are other units that use them. San Joaquin Co Sheriff Swat in Ca uses them as well. I imagine Hk has sold some of them else where.

Paradis1142
01-08-15, 18:08
Nice.

leibermuster
01-22-15, 14:16
I find it humorous that the ONLY 2 US users of the MP7 listed on Wikipedia is:
United States NSW DEV GROUP (SEAL Team 6)
&
Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety in California:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7

Those must be some BAMF Tier 1 super cops in Sunnyvale


There are units across Europe that use it besides ones in Germany.

montrala
01-22-15, 18:00
MP7 is very popular in Southeast Asia, both in Police and SOF units of several countries. That is why German government ban put on HK to prevent sales outside NATO countries (recently lifted) hurt them so much.

HKGuns
01-22-15, 18:15
I'd take one of these in a fast second.

How does LAV own one? Does he have a chalet in Germany or is he licensed dealer? Regardless, I am definitely jealous.

ETA: I hate it when I post in a necro thread.

call_me_ski
01-22-15, 18:17
He probably is on a first name basis with some hk reps so he is able to arrange a shoot with one for tac tv and not actually own one is my guess

fourXfour
01-22-15, 19:49
I wouldn't be surprised if LAV owns a class 3 business or is employed by one. He also previously consulted for HK and helped with the HK45. Maybe he is still on payroll and considered an employee.

Eurodriver
01-22-15, 21:28
I find it humorous that the ONLY 2 US users of the MP7 listed on Wikipedia is:
United States NSW DEV GROUP (SEAL Team 6)
&
Sunnyvale Department of Public Safety in California:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7

Those must be some BAMF Tier 1 super cops in Sunnyvale

This made me LOL

Turnkey11
01-22-15, 22:30
Gun belongs to a local PD, the amo is not cheap, and the recoil is like a 22MAG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNN0UV7NmOk
This is a video of me shooting LAV's MP7 during a past Tac TV shoot in Los Angeles. Surefire can.

So, it's like a P90, but shoots an even smaller round, has less capacity, and retained that horrible selector lever from all the other H&K sub guns that requires Yao Ming's thumbs to operate?

montrala
01-23-15, 03:19
But it has very cool thigh holster! (or rather a mounting bracket).

And selector is not that bad at all. I actually did not notice it to be bad in any way.

jpmuscle
01-23-15, 03:59
MP7 is very popular in Southeast Asia, both in Police and SOF units of several countries. That is why German government ban put on HK to prevent sales outside NATO countries (recently lifted) hurt them so much.
Do they do stupid nonsense like this to purposely stifle economic growth or?

montrala
01-23-15, 04:32
There is political support from Greens and far left to "kill HK" as "merchant of death" that look for every real or fake reason to harm them. Official language was that German made weapons are too good to let them fall in wrong hands. There was big anti-HK campaign that weapons delivered for Mexican Police and Military were used to fight some insurgents. Probably govt decide that if HK can not police themselves, who they sell, govt will do that for them.

jpmuscle
01-23-15, 06:48
There is political support from Greens and far left to "kill HK" as "merchant of death" that look for every real or fake reason to harm them. Official language was that German made weapons are too good to let them fall in wrong hands. There was big anti-HK campaign that weapons delivered for Mexican Police and Military were used to fight some insurgents. Probably govt decide that if HK can not police themselves, who they sell, govt will do that for them.
This makes me sad...


All the more reason to open up shop in the USA.

montrala
01-23-15, 08:37
Not really. HK (and several other companies) live mostly because US companies are effectively cut of from worldwide market by US export restrictions. Of course there are procedures to get licenses for mil/LE or civilian uses, but those licenses are liability (for eg. US assumes to have jurisdiction over exported goods even when they left US). It is worth to get them when country wants to have F16 or JAASM, or individual wants to have JP racing rifle, but not when someone wants to outfit their Army or Police in small arms. Sales like LMT to UK or LWRCi to Saudis are small and rare. Only countries that get US made small arms for free from US govt use them. In meantime HK or FN outfit whole countries or top units in most countires.

Of course US internal market is huge, but for HK to move to US (because only total movement to US will free them from German govt, merely opening plant in US means nothing - German govt assumes jurisdiction over any actions of HK or HK subsidiaries even those outside Germany) they would need to give up position of one of top dogs worldwide, to become underdog in US.

HKGuns
01-23-15, 10:38
You are correct Montrala, some Americans have a very myopic view of the world.

jpmuscle
01-23-15, 18:25
You are correct Montrala, some Americans have a very myopic view of the world.
Bah.....

Mr blasty
01-23-15, 19:07
Then what's a good country to move the headquarters to for export? Swiss?

Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

call_me_ski
01-23-15, 19:09
This makes me sad...


All the more reason to open up shop in the USA.

Labour would go through the roof and the Swiss franc just jumped in value relative the euro a couple weeks ago. Not a good place to manufacture things if you plan to export

MorphCross
01-23-15, 19:34
Then what's a good country to move the headquarters to for export? Swiss?

Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

A country with the population and export infrastructure of China/India, the work ethic of Japan, and the economy of a small African republic. For firearm manufacturing the plant better be ISO certified. :sarcastic:

Being serious and on topic there are domestic manufacturers trying to create firearms/cartridge combos that closely match if not beat the MP7. Just goes to show that there is a market here in the US all be it a narrow one.

Hammer27
01-23-15, 20:51
A country with the population and export infrastructure of China/India, the work ethic of Japan, and the economy of a small African republic. For firearm manufacturing the plant better be ISO certified. :sarcastic:

Being serious and on topic there are domestic manufacturers trying to create firearms/cartridge combos that closely match if not beat the MP7. Just goes to show that there is a market here in the US all be it a narrow one.

I'd imagine the real issue is that in the form that many Americans lust for the firearm you need an NFA stamp(s).

4.6mm is very close to the .17hmr.
4.6x30 vs 4.5x27mm

montrala
01-24-15, 08:45
You forget one thing. Guys from HK are proud to be German company and to work in Oberndorf - historical cradle of German small arms manufacturing. HK moved to any other place, would not be HK anymore.

Look at Colt. Can you imagine Colt becoming for eg. Mexican or Agentinian or New Zealand company and staying to be Colt in anything but name?

interfan
01-24-15, 17:06
There is political support from Greens and far left to "kill HK" as "merchant of death" that look for every real or fake reason to harm them. Official language was that German made weapons are too good to let them fall in wrong hands. There was big anti-HK campaign that weapons delivered for Mexican Police and Military were used to fight some insurgents. Probably govt decide that if HK can not police themselves, who they sell, govt will do that for them.

You're right, Montrala, the German political situation makes it very difficult for HK these days. The press in Germany is out to smear HK for any "crimes" committed using their products, and any knock on the arms industry is a direct shot at HK:

German rifles may land in child soldiers? hands | World | DW.DE | 13.02.2014 (http://www.dw.de/german-rifles-may-land-in-child-soldiers-hands/a-17426642);
German churches succeed in blocking Mideast arms deals - World Tribune | World Tribune (http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/12/18/german-churches-succeed-blocking-mideast-arms-deals/);
INTERVIEW Mexican foreign minister: Let's talk with, not about, each other By Denis Duettmann and Andrea Sosa, dpa | EUROPE ONLINE (http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/interviewmexican-foreign-minister-lets-talk-with-not-about-each-otherby-denis-duettmann-and-andrea-sosa-dpa_372982.html).

None of these things should reflect on HK, but they are a scapegoat and demonized by those who do so for political gain. Just think how relentless the left here criticise Haliburton and other defense contractors in the wake of the Iraq war and multiply that by 1000.

HK just wants to make money (and is desperate to do so to raise cash these days (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-28/heckler-koch-bonds-drop-after-gunmaker-draws-down-50-of-loan.html)), and the US civilian market is the largest potential source of that. US import restrictions can be overcome (like FN does with the SCAR, CZ with the Scorpion, etc.), but German export restrictions makes things basically impossible. If HK could sell us MP7s, G36, real 416s, etc., they would. This was straight from the horse's mouth of senior HK leadership from SHOT Show. One of the German guys said that if the greens and communists could blame HK for making the weather bad, they would.