View Full Version : Oh Crap Moment ND
Spring is coming and we'll all be wearing lightweight jackets. Many of them will have drawstrings. Everyone be careful and safe when holstering their pistols while wearing one of these. (This issue will not apply strictly to Glocks.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw
Thanks for the link to the video. I am going to use this for safety training and have the students point out things that were done in an unsafe manner prior to and after the weapon discharged.
Plus, no one carrying concealed should ever remove their holstered weapon at a gun store.
Cagemonkey
03-14-14, 21:25
Interesting. Everyone seems to laugh at manual safeties nowadays. For example on the S&W Shield. Maybe not such a bad idea after all. You don't have to use the safety, but at least its an option for some situations.
Plus, no one carrying concealed should ever remove their holstered weapon at a gun store.
That is the first point I plan on bringing up at class.
SeriousStudent
03-14-14, 22:59
Very good advice.
Don't just limit your scrutiny to the drawstrings and toggles on the hem. A lot of jackets have care tags (washing instructions) sewn in, with spare buttons on them. Those can also become an issue.
Interesting. Everyone seems to laugh at manual safeties nowadays. For example on the S&W Shield. Maybe not such a bad idea after all. You don't have to use the safety, but at least its an option for some situations.
This. And it's absurd
zombiescometh
03-15-14, 00:18
This. And it's absurd
Lets not forget that even manual safeties fail sometimes.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-15-14, 01:22
Gotta be careful. Earlier tonight I brought my Springer 1911 in from the range bag and forgot I had left it loaded. No biggie, I cleared it, but I imagined myself dry-firing it or something absent-mindedly and could have easily reduced my home's insulation efficiency and changed the tint of my underwear.
Draw quickly, holster slowly and look while you're doing it.
Lets not forget that even manual safeties fail sometimes.
NDs like this seem to be more common that most think and Ill bet a ton never make the news or Internet forums. One just happened at my gun club last month.
However I never see people report safeties failing (not that it doesn't happen) and I've never seen any data looking at LE or civilians forgetting to remove their TS during a gunfight.
It seems that what was once taboo is now something to be ridiculed now that Glock convinced everyone you didn't need one. I would love to see how people react if Glock comes out with a carbine and no manual safety ;)
A lot of people strongly advocate watching your gun all the way into the holster, and for good reason. This is definitely something to be mindful of. I could conceivably see this same thing happening with just the hem of your shirt or sweater, even if it doesn't have a drawstring.
This was a timely video. My wife just got her concealed permit and has a Glock 26 (she's been shooting it for a while and favors it) and I mentioned being mindful of the trigger at all times, and brought up 'Glock Leg.' This was the perfect video to illustrate not only that it happens and how, but that it happens to seasoned professionals as well.
While I trust the Glock (G17 for me) and myself for safe carry, I did switch to carrying either an HK P30S in 9MM or a .38Spl LCR. I'm just more comfortable with a DA/SA + safety semi-auto or a DA revolver. When you make operating the safety part of your routine (just like with the AR) it's not even a concern for me as to whether or not I'll forget it's on.
PatrioticDisorder
03-15-14, 11:42
Gotta be careful. Earlier tonight I brought my Springer 1911 in from the range bag and forgot I had left it loaded. No biggie, I cleared it, but I imagined myself dry-firing it or something absent-mindedly and could have easily reduced my home's insulation efficiency and changed the tint of my underwear.
Had a guy tell me the other day tell me how he thought he cleared his Colt 6920 and pulled the trigger only to get a loud bang out of his gun. He lived in a condo, luckily it was in Miami and there was concrete in the walls. He was able to fish out the flattened and almost disintegrated projectile from the wall.
One more thing to keep in mind when choosing clothing while carrying (which is always of course!). I don't think 3 incidents in the history of Glock's existent involving a toggle draw string is enough to sway a company into manual safeties (nor should it be). I do think it's an excellent example of complacency being potentially deadly. I believe that Chief's was shrouded, but also another argument for shrouded trigger holsters. I can't fathom why people use those screw on clips or any other "holster" that doesn't completely shroud the trigger guard. I think if he had used his support hand to lift up the clothing away from his holster, while holstering, or visually holstered it, this would have never happened.
I agree with what most said here. Especially Gentleart with picking up your clothing before re-holstering if you do have to remove your firearm.
Among some people who carry a firearm everyday but rarely shoot or train with one, I believe a complacency begins. The pistol becomes no different then their radio, light, wallet, car keys, etc.
Before I was married I lived with two friend of mine; a cop and a lawyer. The lawyer and I were childhood friends an shot together frequently for years. The cop rarely shot despite access to free department ammo.
We went shooting with the cop and his work buddies ONCE. Single handedly the most unsafe group of people I've ever seen around guns before or since. In a post shooting day discussion I mentioned my theory to the cop and he actually agreed. I told them Glocks were probably not a good choice for his department (to which the ball bustin lawyer said guns were not a good choice for them :p)
This guy later shot himself through the hand with a .22 pistol he took off a hoodlum.
This isn't to trash on cops but rather people who become complacent around guns.
I wish we got free ammo to train with, heck, I wish we had access to a range through the department :(. You're right, to be honest a lot of officers only shoot once or twice a year, to qual. Some departments with big budgets are different, most don't assist. I have a lot of respect for the departments that factor a big chunk out of their budget to firearms training and training retention. Complacency kills :(
Coal Dragger
03-15-14, 17:52
Spring is coming and we'll all be wearing lightweight jackets. Many of them will have drawstrings. Everyone be careful and safe when holstering their pistols while wearing one of these. (This issue will not apply strictly to Glocks.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw
That's the second time that fellow has shot himself according to the video.
Maybe he needs to consider not carrying a gun....
I always teach people to reholster slowly and deliberately, using the support hand to clear any clothing from the area, and even leaning slightly so the muzzle never crosses your body. If there is an ND, it hits the floor, an area you can see and verify isn't occupied by anyone.
kantstudien
03-15-14, 19:30
Safeties don't cure stupid.
You Can NEVER be to Careful!!! 2 ND's ? WTF!!! Good thing it was not AIWB.
Let's not forget there are two hundred million firearms in the US, and strange things will happen sometimes.
Perfect example of why you should cut the draw strings off of your jackets
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Perfect example of why you should cut the draw strings off of your jackets
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Does anyone really use them anyhow? I've never once tightened the bottom of a jacket with a drawstring.
Does anyone really use them anyhow? I've never once tightened the bottom of a jacket with a drawstring.
Never in my life. Not once.
thopkins22
03-16-14, 14:09
Does anyone really use them anyhow? I've never once tightened the bottom of a jacket with a drawstring.
Skiing(particularly in powder,) and other winter sports are an excellent reason to use drawstrings. But generally, no.
Cut em off and you'll need em
Does anyone really use them anyhow? I've never once tightened the bottom of a jacket with a drawstring.
Cut em off and you'll need em
I cut them off of everything, and I have yet to regret it.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
The gun was long past holstered when it fired, granted the officer was an idiot handling the weapon but he wasn't actually handling the weapon when it went off. Safeties fail, the one that fails most often is the one between your ears. Any of us could have missed a drawstring while holstering and tugged on our jacket an hour later to produce the same result. You can't fault him for not anticipating every possible permutation of random shit happening. Hindsight is 20/20, that's why this his department didn't fault him, because legally no reasonable person could have expected that chain of events.
Just one of the problems and sources of increased risk here is that most of the passive safeties on the new striker fired guns are defeated by the same action that makes it go boom. An XD would not have had this issue because the passive backstrap safety and the trigger are far less likely to be actuated at the same time. A thumb safety wouldn't have had this issue either because the drawstring couldn't have defeated that safey and pulled the trigger.
Increasing the number of contacts to make the gun fire exponentially reduces the chances of an unintended firing by something other than your finger. That's a simple concept. I don't understand, no ones advocating passive drop safeties only in the trigger on a combat rifle, why are we so accepting of them on a combat pistol? The bottom line is things will happen out of your control, a weapon that only takes one action to fire will be statistically more likely to go off unintentionally than one that requires 2 deliberate actions given all other things constant.
thopkins22
03-16-14, 16:27
I don't understand, no ones advocating passive drop safeties only in the trigger on a combat rifle, why are we so accepting of them on a combat pistol? The bottom line is things will happen out of your control, a weapon that only takes one action to fire will be statistically more likely to go off unintentionally than one that requires 2 deliberate actions given all other things constant.
Pistols have holsters that cover the trigger. When someone develops a sling(rifle holster,) that covers the trigger that argument would begin to make sense.
Rifles(and I'm willing to bet every other firearm with multiple safeties) have gone bang when gear flips the safety and pulls the trigger...it's why there are multiple rules of gun handling...they almost totally eliminate tragedies as long as even just one of them is being obeyed.
Sure that reduces risk, but holsters that cover the trigger are unfortunately not part of the weapon and obviously don't eliminate something from coming into contact with the trigger (exactly this) from happening. The backstrap safety is 100% passive and reduces the threat of the safety being overriden and the trigger being pulled by most objects.
Safeties don't cure stupid.
This. Seen a ****ing tabbed out infantry CSM AD his M9 in a clearing barrel. Can't cure stupid....
When the Chief is handling the 380 a few minutes before he shoots himself with the G23, he also muzzles his own hand (Rule 2 violation) and stands there with his finger on the trigger (Rule 3 violation).
Safeties can't help people like that.
Okie John
When the Chief is handling the 380 a few minutes before he shoots himself with the G23, he also muzzles his own hand (Rule 2 violation) and stands there with his finger on the trigger (Rule 3 violation).
Safeties can't help people like that.
Okie John
and yet in this instance if he had a thumb or backstrap safety it would have? The user is of course the #1 factor in safety but you can't deny there are simple ways to make a weapon more safe.
Averageman
03-16-14, 21:38
If this is the Chief's second ND that resulted in wounding himself, it's clear he wont be cured of his bad habits; well that is unless there is a third ND.
If this is the Chief's second ND that resulted in wounding himself, it's clear he wont be cured of his bad habits; well that is unless there is a third ND.
This is the second ND that we know about.
This is a great video to show people who think that because they are LEO, GOV or MIL that they know everything there is to know about firearms.
I used to talk to the Captain of one of the precincts in a large town where I live. He was not very knowledgable about firearms. He carried a Glock 27 (plain clothes) and said he only really shot to qualify.
I've got a buddy that is a sheriffs deputy in my county and he only shoots for quals.
Both of the officers I mentioned ONLY own department issued firearms. They are both cool dudes but are not experts. I guess to them the gun is a tool like the cuffs, knife, taser, baton/stiletto, etc...
whiterabbit05
03-16-14, 22:59
The news tries to make it sound like it's the guns fault...
The news tries to make it sound like it's the guns fault...
It is the guns fault. Just like when a drunk hits and kills someone, it's the car and the alcohols fault... Never mind the DUMBASS who got behind the wheel.
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