View Full Version : Question for combat vets
What did you do with empty mags during a firefight? Not talking about inside a vehicle where you could just toss it aside and pick it up later, but out in the open/in a building/in the jungle etc.
davidjinks
03-16-14, 18:06
My DCU/BDU top was always tucked into my pants. So the mags would get stuffed down the shirt. This was before dump pouches were being fielded.
What did you do with empty mags during a firefight? Not talking about inside a vehicle where you could just toss it aside and pick it up later, but out in the open/in a building/in the jungle etc.
My DCU/BDU top was always tucked into my pants. So the mags would get stuffed down the shirt. This was before dump pouches were being fielded.
Did not know dump pouches were being issued these days. Kind of always saw them as a type of accessory you might use in a carbine class. Hmmm........
davidjinks
03-16-14, 18:21
The people I was attached to during my deployment ('02-'03 OEF) had them. (I should have clarified my time frame) I know, talking to some friends at Aberdeen (EOD), were issued dump pouches and a few friends left in the mil (Infantry) have been issued them as well (Within the last 2 years). I cannot say for certain that it is Army wide or if it's a unit by unit deal.
Did not know dump pouches were being issued these days. Kind of always saw them as a type of accessory you might use in a carbine class. Hmmm........
I never had dump pouches during that time frame. That being said I never went through more than a mag at a time. During the invasion I was a SAW gunner and in 05 I was a SDM. Every fight we got in we had armor support from Brads or Abrams except for a few cases but even then we had the guns on the humvees. They fired the majority of the rounds.
Eurodriver
03-16-14, 18:43
I always carried a dump pouch on my web belt. Great accessory for storing discarded mags, MRE wrappers, empty rip-it cans, etc.
Failure2Stop
03-16-14, 19:19
Trouser cargo pockets.
Don't over think the problem.
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Cargo pocket, is all I ever needed.
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Inkslinger
03-16-14, 19:49
Didn't really care....
This thread has me curious. Is military SOP to retain all magazines? I would imagine a soldier stowing an empty mag would be slightly less combat effective then one letting the mag hit the deck without second thought. Are there situations were soldiers are reloading magazines while in the field?
Failure2Stop
03-16-14, 19:55
This thread has me curious. Is military SOP to retain all magazines? I would imagine a soldier stowing an empty mag would be slightly less combat effective then one letting the mag hit the deck without second thought. Are there situations were soldiers are reloading magazines while in the field?
Used to be retain everything.
Slow slide to "keep or retrieve whatever you can without endangering anyone".
If you need to reload because you went to bolt lock while trying to kill somebody, get your gun up and kill him.
Yes, there are examples of refilling mags following their expenditure.
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Inkslinger
03-16-14, 20:07
Used to be retain everything.
Slow slide to "keep or retrieve whatever you can without endangering anyone".
If you need to reload because you went to bolt lock while trying to kill somebody, get your gun up and kill him.
Yes, there are examples of refilling mags following their expenditure.
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Interesting. As far as refilling magazines, am I safe to assume that is in the form of ammo on stripper clips. If that's the case what's the reason behind that and not carrying a supply of full magazines. Or is it a combination of both.
Failure2Stop
03-16-14, 20:15
Interesting. As far as refilling magazines, am I safe to assume that is in the form of ammo on stripper clips. If that's the case what's the reason behind that and not carrying a supply of full magazines. Or is it a combination of both.
The full ones are for shooting.
There is a lot more ammo than there are magazines. Fill from supply as appropriate.
I did not take loose ammo past the ECP.
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Inkslinger
03-16-14, 20:18
The full ones are for shooting.
There is a lot more ammo than there are magazines. Fill from supply as appropriate.
I did not take loose ammo past the ECP.
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Thanks for your insight, and you service.
Used to be retain everything.
Slow slide to "keep or retrieve whatever you can without endangering anyone".
If you need to reload because you went to bolt lock while trying to kill somebody, get your gun up and kill him.
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This. Only time it was acceptable to ditch a mag was during an emergency reload. Otherwise you find cover, reload, and throw it in a pocket. I ran a dump pouch for a little bit on one deployment but pockets were more suitable for me.
Do you guys in the usmc and army have to fill out paperwork if you come back with less magazines than when you went out?
Also, is it true the army uses zip ties or metal wire around optics just in case they fall off your rail?
The paperwork for lost kit in general is filled out by someone else and handed to you to sign.
Zip ties, 559 cord, and safety wire are all common to secure optics/lights/lasers.
What did you do with empty mags during a firefight? Not talking about inside a vehicle where you could just toss it aside and pick it up later, but out in the open/in a building/in the jungle etc.
Cargo pocket.
Lost mags are no big deal. Your life is worth more than $12.
550 cord is what we use to tiedown our SI to our rifles. Everything is tied down...PVS-14 is secured to the helmet band with a carabiner/550 which is secured to the chin strap through girth hitches of 550. There are SOPs in every unit for certain ways to tiedown everything.
I did not take loose ammo past the ECP.
This.
After 23 months (and counting) deployed in OEF, I have never taken loose ammo outside the wire. I've always brought extra magazines either in an assault pack or a mobile ammo point in the trucks if we were going mounted. The same thing for 40mm, 7.62 links, 5.56 200rd drums, etc.
And you should never use stripper clips to load ammo into a mag you plan to take into combat. Handload every single round to insure it properly seats in the mag. I've seen more than a few malfunctions because I've used stripper clips to top off mags back when I was a Private and didn't know any better.
Wrt to loose ammo, it all depends on mission and vehicle support.
In our vehicle (IVECO LMV - a real POS, but that is a different topic), was very limited wrt actual space in the cargo compartment due to it being filled up with comms and IED jammer equipment.
If we were to bring along our 5.56 resupply SOP with prefilled mags, it would take up too much space, a 1000 round box is a lot handier in that regard.
We were three guys in the truck, and we each had 7 mags on our body. I had 10 preloaded mags in a grab bag, with the other two having 5 mags each. I had 600 rounds preloaded for my FN MAG or MG3 (depending on configuration, FN MAG for RWS), with 1000 rounds in a crate in the rear (comes in 5 200rd belts per crate). We also had 2000 rounds of 5.56 in cans; they come in stripper clips, and never had any malfunction issues - the stripper clip loader we have is very good. Then we had LAWs, extra hand grenades of all types (frag, concussion, flash, thermite), 40mm rounds and so forth.
If we were going on a dismounted patrol, I would never bring ammo that was not ready to be used.
Wrt mag retention, the main priority is to get the gun back in the fight. However, in a team setting in combat, you will often reload behind cover, where you will have time to check that you have all your gear before you either move or shift to a new firing position. So, if you can, bring your empty/partial mag with you when time and situation allows.
Do you guys in the usmc and army have to fill out paperwork if you come back with less magazines than when you went out?
Also, is it true the army uses zip ties or metal wire around optics just in case they fall off your rail?
I don't believe mags are tracked like that. If you sign for it, then yes, expect some paperwork and probably charges after losing it. I never had to sign for any mags so that's why I don't think they are as big of a deal.
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Dump pouch, the Camp Lejeune CIF use to issue CSM dump pouches
Failure2Stop
03-17-14, 07:42
Do you guys in the usmc and army have to fill out paperwork if you come back with less magazines than when you went out?
Also, is it true the army uses zip ties or metal wire around optics just in case they fall off your rail?
If you lose any issued item you have to do a missing gear statement, which gets forwarded up your chain and ultimately decided if you are at fault or covered by the command.
I never had to do one for magazines as I always had way more than the issued number of mags.
The retention of optics/accessories to the platform is referred to as "Dummy Cording", and is SOP for most units.
*All of the above is from a Marine perspective.
This.
And you should never use stripper clips to load ammo into a mag you plan to take into combat. Handload every single round to insure it properly seats in the mag. I've seen more than a few malfunctions because I've used stripper clips to top off mags back when I was a Private and didn't know any better.
When I was on a MITT we carried an extra couple cans per person in our M1114s, our EDL had everyone carrying 12 magazines.
Never really had an issue with stripper clip loading. One of the weird things I saw when I was an OBC instructor was my Army Lts would load the stripper clips in their mags by placing the top round of the clip against a table or hard object and pushing all the way to the feed lips (looked liked they mashed the lips against the table while doing it) that way instead pushing it down with their thumb. Is that a Army wide practice?
If you lose any issued item you have to do a missing gear statement, which gets forwarded up your chain and ultimately decided if you are at fault or covered by the command.
I never had to do one for magazines as I always had way more than the issued number of mags.
The retention of optics/accessories to the platform is referred to as "Dummy Cording", and is SOP for most units.
*All of the above is from a Marine perspective.
Makes sense with respsect to having extra mags.
The USAF doesn't do "dummy cording" as you call it as far as I've seen, which is why I was curious. Have you seen dummy cording actually save a piece of gear?
Have you seen dummy cording actually save a piece of gear?
Yes.
NODs and a PEQ-2.
Is that a Army wide practice?
Only if you're retarded.
That's one of my biggest pet peeves. Whenever I see a Joe doing it, I lose my shit. It's part of the reason we have so many shitty mags in our Company.
Failure2Stop
03-17-14, 10:43
Makes sense with respsect to having extra mags.
The USAF doesn't do "dummy cording" as you call it as far as I've seen, which is why I was curious. Have you seen dummy cording actually save a piece of gear?
I've seen enough lost to not fight the practice.
I've seen enough lost to not fight the practice.
Was the lost gear caused by improper installation, mechanical failure, or something else?
I've seen a lot of PEQ-2s walk themselves loose on machine guns, particularly the 240. That vertical screw into the picatinny mount isn't the strongest design. Loctite helps, but doesn't fix it completely. That's where the "cross" 550 tiedown came from. We still do it with the PEQ-15 even though it has a tiedown point on the plastic body and doesn't need it.
PVS-14s have a habit of just deciding they want to come off of the rhino mount. My recent J-arm was so bad, I dropped the coin for a Wilcox arm just so I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.
Yeah, the PAQ4/PEQ2 mount had bad habit of coming off. Really designed for the pre-rail days
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Failure2Stop
03-17-14, 12:01
Was the lost gear caused by improper installation, mechanical failure, or something else?
As noted above, can be both.
On non-machineguns it's usually improper/inadequate installation. It's hard to convince some people that Loctiting ancillary deices to the individual weapon is a good idea when they have no concept of zero retention and they worry more about weapons fitting into 50 year old rifle racks than delivering actual capability to the fight.
I don't dummy-cord my personal stuff, but I check it pretty frequently.
Funny story, during a class I popped off the elevation knob of a CQBSS during a demo of the Half and Half with a 7.62. My post/pre-firing checks now include checking the hex screws that secure the adjustment knobs. I haven't noticed any looseness since, so I can't say for sure if it was my fault for not adequately tightening them after re-zeroing or if a few thousand rounds of high density fire made them walk. Those screws aren't something I want to seal in a fixed position and don't want to apply excessive torque to them. The mystery continues.
ETA: I am really looking forward to someone coming out with an IR device that has the same form-factor as the PEQ15 but with a good semi-permanent mount. Everything so far is lacking.
Regarding lost mags, there usually wasn't too much of a stink made from the supply guys. They'd just hand out more if you needed 'em. If anything, the only payment made for a lost mag came out of your ass to your TL or SL.
Interesting seeing how much ammo you guys used to roll with, and comparing it to the one guy I know. He said his unit SOP was to dummy cord every single pouch, along with the normal sensitive items. I have seen it save gear. And I have seen tons of guys (Army) use a table or something else to jam rounds into mags.
St.Michael
03-25-14, 11:29
Reading this is all pretty interesting. I have never been in any kind of situation where I needed to fire back. I would think you guys who have wouldn't give a rat's ass about where your mags go once they are empty if you are busy trying to service the enemy. IMHO. Thanks for the info though guys and for your service!
ramairthree
03-25-14, 12:45
Mid 80s to late 90s,
the era of LCEs and then vests-
it was typical to have a loop of 550 cord on the base of your mags to get them out of the carriers fast. This loop was also used to hand the mag on a 'biner on your kit when emptied and retained.
Typical load then was 7 to 13 loaded mags, with additional ammo on strippers in bandoliers in the ruck.
You would be accountable for lost mags at this era for the most part.
In the early 90s, it transiently became cool to minimize kit for a quick trip out.
An incident that occurred then make it back in vogue to carry a ton of ammo and stuff out with you.
Dump pouches then became popular for a while. So were thigh holsters and other stuff that stuck out. Also three point slings, one point slings, etc.
Streamlining kit, not being accountable for lost mags, running out for an op vs. being out for a long time, real world accumulation of how stuff worked vs not, etc. pretty much led, for the most part,
to not retaining mags,
and getting back to going out with minimal stuff.
That has not caused a bite in the ass recently like it did in '93.
I personally have not been in a shooting match that went past the first mag. And things were calm enough to retain it at that point if you wanted when throwing in a fresh one.
And, I can also back up it has been decades since going out with more ammo than mags.
In 1968 I tossed them, was very surprised and a bit unhappy when I found out that the ammo came without new mags. Very embarrassing. Just a FNG that didn't know sh&t.
I'm not one for losing track of my gear, but the leadership was often more worried about getting parts for the humvees and 5 tons (Summer of '03, Iraq, Army) to keep them running since there was a parts supply shortage for a good 4 months or so. Magazines were dime a dozen most often and easy to replace.
Keeping track of your gear tends to be a little more difficult over there since you live with it on you 10 hours a day, then next to you the rest of the time. (I don't think there really is a civilian version of what it feels like to live with your gear for a year plus.)
In the late 1960's the NRA magazine had an article about Vietnam snipers using scoped m14s. These guys had a problem with mount screws getting loose, and their solution was to put iodine on the screws. This step caused rust that froze the screws in place. Even as a kid then, while reading the article I wondered why Loctite was not used.
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