View Full Version : Aluminum end-plate...weakness...or moot point?
Daniel Defense and others, and now V7, and likely more others, have began using aluminum end-plates. Obviously the QD socket will wear faster/more than a steel QD socket, but I doubt it "matters". My question is, will this in any way prove to weaken the system, say if aggressively mortared, or fallen on, or anything else, as compared with a steel end-plate?
steyrman13
03-19-14, 09:40
I would think moot point as far as the second half of your question. The receiver and the threads and extension tube are what take the force during the described activities, not the end plate. The end plate really only serves to capture the take down pin spring and now a QD point, oh and "help" keep the tube from rotating although it doesn't quite work like designed with an A1/A2 stock. It was more of a patch to allow collapsible butt-stocks to work with the system.
I would think moot point as far as the second half of your question. The receiver and the threads and extension tube are what take the force during the described activities, not the end plate. The end plate really only serves to capture the take down pin spring and now a QD point, oh and "help" keep the tube from rotating although it doesn't quite work like designed with an A1/A2 stock. It was more of a patch to allow collapsible butt-stocks to work with the system.
It helps keep the tube from rotating if the castle nut is staked properly and the staking holds up. But enough counter-clockwise force the the stock will break the staking and destroy the threads on the buffer tube.
steyrman13
03-19-14, 10:00
It helps keep the tube from rotating if the castle nut is staked properly and the staking holds up. But enough counter-clockwise force the the stock will break the staking and destroy the threads on the buffer tube.
Correct, but castle nut is actually what provides the torque to prevent it from rotating and could be locked in place with things like loctite (Not the preferred way and not mine, just stating other ways) or if you theoretically threaded the hole for the spring as some do and put a screw in it, you could get by without an endplate all together and rockset/loctite the castle nut in place. I was saying the receiver end plate had the little nub at the bottom which sits in the "channel" although very shallow on the tube. That is what "helps" prevent the tube from rotating by the receiver endplate, although we all know it will just slip and stripped threads.
But the endplate doesn't provide rigidity or anything for mortaring, falling on, etc.
if you theoretically threaded the hole for the spring as some do and put a screw in it, you could get by without an endplate all together and rockset/loctite the castle nut in place.
The castle nut does almost nothing to prevent the RE from unscrewing. You can weld the castle nut to the buffer tube and it'd still unscrew without an endplate... and even with an endplate, but again that would require the staking to fail and the RE threads to strip. Which they will, because the RE is aluminum and the endplate is steel.
ETA: Unless you're talking about loctiting the castle nut to both the RE AND the lower receiver itself. Then yeah, you're pretty safe. But at that point, why not just loctite the RE's threads into the lower? The castle nut does practically nothing without an end plate there (yes it prevents over-tightening, but the RE can only over-tighten so much before it hits the buffer detent, and yes it does help the thread strength when applying direct forward force to the back of the RE, like when mortaring, but I'm pretty sure the threads aren't the weak point).
steyrman13
03-19-14, 10:51
The castle nut does almost nothing to prevent the RE from unscrewing. You can weld the castle nut to the buffer tube and it'd still unscrew without an endplate... and even with an endplate, but again that would require the staking to fail and the RE threads to strip. Which they will, because the RE is aluminum and the endplate is steel.
ETA: Unless you're talking about loctiting the castle nut to both the RE AND the lower receiver itself. Then yeah, you're pretty safe. But at that point, why not just loctite the RE's threads into the lower? The castle nut does practically nothing without an end plate there (yes it prevents over-tightening, but the RE can only over-tighten so much before it hits the buffer detent, and yes it does help the thread strength when applying direct forward force to the back of the RE, like when mortaring, but I'm pretty sure the threads aren't the weak point).
The castle nut IS what prevents the RE from unscrewing or rotating. Think of a double nut system. The RE is the screwed in and the Castle nut is the second nut that prevents it from reversing. The staking helps prevent the castle nut from loosing, but so would loctite if it is properly torqued. KAC doesn't stake their new castle nuts, but the torque applied prevents the RE from rotating and prevents the castle nut from loosening. Like I said, the end plate really only provides a block for the take down pin spring.
Without the castle nut torqued down, the RE - at least mine, doesn't get tight. It screws in free until it hits the buffer detent. I have since torqued it and neither have come loose since. I'm rebuilding my lower with top level shit and transferring my current stuff to another build at some point, so its waiting till then.
Anyways, back on topic, and to be clear, castle nut pushes the endplates detent into the RE, and the endplate also holds the stock from turning by the tooth that engages the ridge in bottom of stock. The stock will wiggle until the castle nut is torqued down pulling the RE threads tight against the receiver, freezing everything in place. A properly torqued endplate will not come loose, but staking is a good idea as it really secures everything and had no drawbacks. I would have no reservations using an aluminum endplate, as long as its from a reputable company/well made.
Why even bother worrying about the question? Just get a steel endplate. They're cheaper anyway, and the IWC endplate is even melonited.
I have seen numerous damaged RE's, most recently in my classes in TX. If the tube is not tightened correctly and then staked. This is especially important when attaching a sling to the stock. The staking prevents movement of the castle nut. When you Loc-tite the RE to the nut, it will fuze together and they will essentially become one.
I don't see how an aluminum endplate is as good nor do I think that the weight savings is significant.
The castle nut IS what prevents the RE from unscrewing or rotating. Think of a double nut system. The RE is the screwed in and the Castle nut is the second nut that prevents it from reversing. The staking helps prevent the castle nut from loosing, but so would loctite if it is properly torqued. KAC doesn't stake their new castle nuts, but the torque applied prevents the RE from rotating and prevents the castle nut from loosening. Like I said, the end plate really only provides a block for the take down pin spring.
I don't see how an aluminum endplate is as good nor do I think that the weight savings is significant.
Agreed, I don't see much point when the Noveske steel model is out there.
Agreed, I don't see much point when the Noveske steel model is out there.
Consider that many people have complete DD lower equipped weapons. Is this something like a poorly staked BCG that should be replaced on a duty/hard use weapon, or not so much?
steyrman13
03-20-14, 09:06
I have seen numerous damaged RE's, most recently in my classes in TX. If the tube is not tightened correctly and then staked. This is especially important when attaching a sling to the stock. The staking prevents movement of the castle nut. When you Loc-tite the RE to the nut, it will fuze together and they will essentially become one.
I don't see how an aluminum endplate is as good nor do I think that the weight savings is significant.
I agree with you, was just stating that receiver ext is actually held in place by a properly tightened castle nut. The plate does little to nothing for holding the RE in place. It does help hold a castle but by staking, but is it worth taking a factory built rifle apart from a quality manufacturer such as DD like the OP is asking about to replace it with a steel one?
Does everyone need to take apart their newer KAC SR15 apart to replace the castle but because it isn't staked, but is torqued correctly to prevent slippage?
I have seen numerous damaged RE's, most recently in my classes in TX. .
What kind of damage did you see?
I doubt I'd go to the trouble of replacing an Aluminun plate.
SpeedRacer
03-20-14, 09:22
If it's already there, don't worry about it. Search here and the web and see how many broken DD end plates and receiver extensions you find. My prediction is zilch.
IWC is making a nice steel end plate with a QD as well
steyrman13
03-20-14, 10:04
If it's already there, don't worry about it. Search here and the web and see how many broken DD end plates and receiver extensions you find. My prediction is zilch.
Isn't the Endplate used in the DD torture test "2" the newer Aluminum QD endplate that is spoken of in the OP? I didn't see it causing anymore failure than the steel one from the DD torture test 1
There are no mechanical concerns with an aluminum end plate as it is not loaded when installed properly.
If a sling socket is installed in the end plate then it is loaded and the plate would need to be looked at differently. Increasing the thickness as DD and others have done seems to be sufficient here.
Nothing wrong with an aluminum end plate if its just an endplate, however if its also a QD Mount I wouldn't trust it. I'd replace it with a steel mount since your QD attachments are made of steel which will wear out an aluminium Mount.
Nothing wrong with an aluminum end plate if its just an endplate, however if its also a QD Mount I wouldn't trust it. I'd replace it with a steel mount since your QD attachments are made of steel which will wear out an aluminium Mount.
From what I've seen they all have a steel socket still.
steyrman13
03-20-14, 12:04
To clarify my point that the receiver plate does nothing other than allow you to retain a spring and do a staking job, you could thread the take down pin spring hole and put a screw in it and put no end plate on the rifle and either stake the receiver itself into the castle nut or even put a split ring lock washer in front of the castle nut for security and even loctite the RE extension into the receiver if you wanted. But because the ideal way is to just stake the castle nut and use an end plate to retain the spring, steel is stronger for the staking, but as KAC has shown with the newer SR15 RE nut without staking it (bc it isn't a "castle" nut) aluminum could stake it securely enough with proper torque value on the castle but itself.
From what I've seen they all have a steel socket still.
OK cool..good to know. Appears to be all aluminum from the pics on their website?
OK cool..good to know. Appears to be all aluminum from the pics on their website?
From what I can tell, it's all aluminum, as well. I have one on my rifle.
From what I can tell, it's all aluminum, as well. I have one on my rifle.
Shit! It'd guess that it would cost a lot to have a steel insert in an alluminum plate from a production standpoint.
p.s. Q.D. is nonsense and doesn't belong on firearms.
Shit! It'd guess that it would cost a lot to have a steel insert in an alluminum plate from a production standpoint.
p.s. Q.D. is nonsense and doesn't belong on firearms.
I would prefer a steel plate with burnsed, but...that's what it came with.
Shit! It'd guess that it would cost a lot to have a steel insert in an alluminum plate from a production standpoint.
p.s. Q.D. is nonsense and doesn't belong on firearms.
Depends how it's made, ultimately I suspect the steel would be cheaper.
Qd works fine.
Depends how it's made, ultimately I suspect the steel would be cheaper.
I forget what the machine is called that punches those things, but it just bangs away. I supposed adding the socket is additional cost either way.
Qd works fine.
Until it fails. ;)
Adding the socket would be about the same either way but I suspect the steel stamping would be cheaper and more attainable.
I've read some of the stories... Not concerned.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.