View Full Version : Please Critique My Ideal KISS AR Build
Paul Kersey
03-22-14, 14:45
AR newbie here. I want to put together a simple, reliable, all-around carbine. I plan to use it for courses, plinking, and if necessary self-defense both inside and outside the home at realistic combat distances (I live in an urban/suburban area). Plan to run primarily M193/M855 and maybe some of the heavier loadings, but would like to be able to shoot the cheap steel-cased stuff as well.
After much research, this is the setup I think I want:
BCM complete upper, 16" BHF barrel, midlength gas, 1:7 twist
BCM complete lower
Cav Arms C8 handguards
B5 Systems SOPMOD Bravo stock
Aimpoint T1 on Larue LT660 mount
Larue LT103 BUIS
Surefire G2 in Elzetta ZFH-1500 mount
Does this look like the ideal setup for my needs and preferences? Am I missing anything?
Thanks
Personal preference, but I would go with a lightweight middy BCM barrel. Also, that Elzetta mount places the light at 6 o'clock - hardly an ideal position. A magpul MOR handguard with IWC flashlight mount would be a much more usable solution. Also easier to mount a sling to.
Only you can decide what it will take to satisfy your needs and preferences. The only thing I would add is you may want some different ammo for defense.
Levi
Edit: I would also get a sling and you may want to look at a different hand guard. If you're willing to spend money, Centurion Arms makes really good cut-out rails that give you more length and allow you to keep the front sight post. If you're dead set on the handguard, you may want to look at the Mossie Tactics Midnight Mounts with a Surefire X300U. Be sure to buy plenty of ammo and mags.
I have a BCM middy and it doesn't like Tula very much. Though I could probably put a car buffer in it and it'd run. Food for thought. My DDM4V1 eats anything I put in it. (Carbine). If you like that set up, just buy a lighter buffer and you should be gtg.
I'm hard pressed to see a reason why anyone should go with non-free floated, plastic hand guards. If you want/have a fixed FSB, get a free-floated setup with the cut out. There are several options that won't break the bank. In addition to the already mentioned Centurion, Daniel Defense and Troy offer some.
I have the Troy on a Colt and am very pleased with it. It even uses a stock bbl nut (not that big a deal on a custom build).
ETA: I recommend the 2MOA version of the T-1 and unless you just have to have LaRue products you can save a little coin with an ADM mount (http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/browse/category/opticmounts/aimpointmounts/) or even a DD mount (quick release isn't that necessary on 1x glass IMO).
My thoughts for a simple carbine for all around use, and take aways from what I have learned.
First, am going to agree with others here that the six O'clock mount isn't idea, and an MOE handguard with a IWC with the G2 would likely be a better system for most everything. Ran one an the same upper as you have listed for quite some time before recently upgrading to a rail system. IWC mount is sleek, and works very well, will note that you may want to put a few drops of blue loctite on the screws otherwise they could vibrate loose.
Depending on how far you plan on reaching out a lighweight barrel may be a better choice, though their is nothing wrong in my opinion with the standard profile. If you want to read up on that search it and you'll find lots of arguments and discussions on the matter. Needless to say though a complete BCM upper with BCM BCG, and a gunfighter CH is going to serve you well in the eyes of pretty much anyone here.
Would make the observation that you have the Larue BUIS. Are you getting this for QD purposes or other reasons? Only reason I point it out is that I am not sure if it is worth it with QD since I don't see any time where I would need to quickly remove a fixed rear sight on the rifle you have described and would think that the DD A1.5 would serve the purpose better. Not saying that the Larue one is less of a sight, just that it might be unnecessary.
As far as using steel cased ammo, my BCM middy has been okay with it running an H buffer. I will get malfs from time to time running Tula, though haven't had any issue with Hornady steel match, Wolf is in the middle in my experience. Would a carbine be more tolerant of the steel cased ammo? Umm, possibly but not absolutely. Last time I had malfs with Tula in my middy, the rifle would fire, cycle, and not pick up the next round, my old beat to shit Bushmaster had the same issue so I honestly don't know, could have been a really bad lot of Tula too. It is junk range ammo in my experience and that is all I use it for, range work when I don't feel like picking up my brass or want to run malf drills. With brass cased .223 and 5.56 NATO my BCM hasn't had an issue.
As far as mounts, Larue mounts have worked fine for me, ADMs are well thought of, and if you do want to save weight and QD isn't a major concern a DD mount could save you money and weight. There are other Micro mounts like Fortis as well as options.
Last point, a good sling like the VCAS would be a good choice as well as any fighting rifle should have a sling. The MOE handguard would also make mounting a sling easier in my mind over the Cav one.
Only odd thought, is that it being a complete lower, depending on the trigger I might look at an ALG ACT trigger as a replacement. Then again I have become spoiled by my own ACT and want to swap all my milspec triggers for one.
Those are my only points, a rail may be worth looking into, but that is not to say you can't upgrade it later, and I would say it depends on budget, not that yours looks like crap, and personal feel for the need. Other than that, the base and heart of the rifle is sound so you should be well served.
If you really want to go the KISS route I think I'd just start with a Colt/Magpul 6920, a sling, an Aimpoint H-1/mount (do you need the T-1 night vision support?), and an Elzetta light mount/light and spend the rest of my time shooting. There are a number of accessories available for the Magpul furniture if you feel inclined to add something else down the road.
As a new AR shooter you'll probably not see much benefit from the middy gas system so it wouldn't be a priority for me. You can always upgrade the Colt to add a free float, carbine cut-out handguard later if you're so inclined.
To be clear, I think BCM products rock I just think you're better off starting with a complete rifle and IMO the Colt 6920 is an amazing value. Get Grant@grtactical.com to fix you up.
After much research, this is the setup I think I want:
BCM complete upper, 16" BHF barrel, midlength gas, 1:7 twist
BCM complete lower
"Build" :no:
I think everything you listed is good to go expect the handguard choice. If you want plastic then I would go with magpull MOE, but if it was me I would go with a light weight metal handguard like the BCM KMR, Noveske NSR something that is more functional and modular with a continuous top rail just in case your mission requirements and equipment change, you can have a rail that supports that.
I get the simplicity of your build, and contrary to others I too prefer the standard handguards in lieu of the Magpuls. Disclaimer, they are a great product, just not a preference of mine. Now, if you would still like the standard handguards, this is what I was looking at using as far as mounting a small Scout light. I'm aiming to keep my 6720 in a KISS style and this is what I am going with for use with the standard guards.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/tmc-scout-light-mount-n-slot/
Failure2Stop
03-23-14, 08:43
http://clydearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/clyde_armory_colt_ar6720.jpg
Add a decent sighting system, sling, and a Scout light in the IWC mount listed above and you are up and running.
Light: the M300 is the undisputed best carbine light at present. Yeah, it's going to hit you kinda hard at ~$250, and another $40-$50 for a mount, but it's worth it.
The older 110 lumen light can be found for less than $200 if you look.
If you really want a fixed rear BUIS, the cheapest method is to just cut down a carry-handle and aluma-black it.
Otherwise, the Daniel Defense is the way to go:
https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/653x205/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/b/2/b23920a4af2a01a0ed4db6451d08cd07.jpg BCM sells them for like $71.
Really, while not a huge fan of the plastic MBUSs, what comes on the 6720 will work for what a BUIS needs to do if you don't want to spend more on redundant items if you decide to go with it.
Why do you think you want the B5 Bravo stock? What does the standard stock fail to do for you?
For the $$, the Magpul MOE is a better design at a lower price.
I recommend the Padded VCAS sling from BFG.
Free-Floating the barrel is a good idea, as it isolates the barrel from outside influence. I tend to prefer buying my uppers complete as I want them. The Centurion handguards are very good as they are simple and effective, if you are into full length rails, especially if using carbine gas and retaining the front sight, and can be disassembled/assembled at the user level.
https://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/85e8d7a63e7bbfb6b319752f3a6c83c4.jpg
I have the carbine cutout on my 6920:
https://www.rainierarms.com//img/shop/product/91ce4fc6157f2694ac320ce8b7371b34.jpg
Not cheap, but good.
It's not so much KISS as it is cheap. Which is fine if that's what you're after, not every rifle has to be a fukitol build!
This is more KISS than a MOE rifle with a light, sling and Aimpoint.
A sling (VCAS not in pic), a light, an optic, some buis. And a Geissele SSA-E.
Just so happens that my buis aren't on my nerves/in my way, my hanguard floats the barrel, dissipates heat, extends grip, has the capability to not be KISS, doesn't move around, is easy to mount sling anywhere/how you want, doesn't require any little hardware to mount the light, and the light is completely ambidextrous, out of the way and produces the least barrel shadow, doesn't require any wires or remote switches.
It may look more complicated, but get it in your hands and use it, and it feels KISS because it's easy to handle, won't burn your hand, can put you hand anywhere along the rail (no junk on the 6:00), acts the same from either shoulder, can't affect POI, nothing gets in the way of the light, and it hangs nicely slung because it's slick on the sides. Has a great trigger that doesn't require you pull through 7lbs of grit to break a shot.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/ARs/003_zps97a024f2.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/ARs/002_zpsa076cd09.jpg
It's not so much KISS as it is cheap. Which is fine if that's what you're after, not every rifle has to be a fukitol build!
This is more KISS than a MOE rifle with a light, sling and Aimpoint.
A sling (VCAS not in pic), a light, an optic, some buis. And a Geissele SSA-E.
Just so happens that my buis aren't on my nerves/in my way, my hanguard floats the barrel, dissipates heat, extends grip, has the capability to not be KISS, doesn't move around, is easy to mount sling anywhere/how you want, doesn't require any little hardware to mount the light, and the light is completely ambidextrous, out of the way and produces the least barrel shadow, doesn't require any wires or remote switches.
It may look more complicated, but get it in your hands and use it, and it feels KISS because it's easy to handle, won't burn your hand, can put you hand anywhere along the rail (no junk on the 6:00), acts the same from either shoulder, can't affect POI, nothing gets in the way of the light, and it hangs nicely slung because it's slick on the sides. Has a great trigger that doesn't require you pull through 7lbs of grit to break a shot.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/ARs/003_zps97a024f2.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/ARs/002_zpsa076cd09.jpg
What light is that? Is it all one piece, light and mount?
Thx
What light is that? Is it all one piece, light and mount?
Thx
Nah, just an X300U on a RIS II. It comes with rail keys for Picatinny, Universal and some kind of rail lock. Put in the Picatinny key and slide it on. Done. Need to change batteries, wanna use it on another rifle or pistol? Slide it off and do it. Use it as a handheld too. I love the X300s.
Personally I'd just put a x300u with an EXO.
To be clear, I think BCM products rock I just think you're better off starting with a complete rifle and IMO the Colt 6920 is an amazing value. Get Grant@grtactical.com to fix you up.
This post gets my vote. By a 6920 and start shooting it you can buy them now for around $1000.00 bucks.
Paul Kersey
03-25-14, 18:17
Personal preference, but I would go with a lightweight middy BCM barrel. Also, that Elzetta mount places the light at 6 o'clock - hardly an ideal position. A magpul MOR handguard with IWC flashlight mount would be a much more usable solution. Also easier to mount a sling to.
I am considering the lightweight barrel. I have handled both the lightweight and standard 16" midlengths side by side at a gun shop and did not notice a difference in handling between the two. But I suspect the difference becomes more noticeable after moving around a while with the rifle as opposed to just standing on a square range.
I have fired ARs with both the MOE and C8 handguards; I like both, but I like feel and look of the C8 a little more. I can always change handguards out later though, they are not expensive so I'm not too concerned.
If you're dead set on the handguard, you may want to look at the Mossie Tactics Midnight Mounts with a Surefire X300U.
I did not know about that mount, it looks like a great setup. I already have an X300 on my G17 which is my current home defense gun, so that would work perfectly. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!
I'm hard pressed to see a reason why anyone should go with non-free floated, plastic hand guards.
I am only mounting a red dot and a light on the rifle, so I am trying to keep it as simple as possible. I figure I can always add a rail later if needed.
Why do you think you want the B5 Bravo stock? What does the standard stock fail to do for you?
For the $$, the Magpul MOE is a better design at a lower price.
I tried the B5 stock on a friend's rifle and liked the feel of it better than the standard stock. I have not tried the MOE stock. What makes it better?
This post gets my vote. By a 6920 and start shooting it you can buy them now for around $1000.00 bucks.
I looked at the 6920 after watching the Military Arms Channel guy's video on YouTube. I would rather have a midlength gas system on a 16" barrel though.
Failure2Stop
03-25-14, 18:35
Probably the single reason that makes me prefer the MOE is that the adjustment lever is protected and not susceptible to accidental collapse. The condition of use that most exposes this is when using a rear support bag. You can also use the excellent MagPul stock extension pad. I think that the MOE is also lighter, but I haven't personally weighed the B5 bravo.
If the negligible weight difference isn't a factor, and if the cheek swell is what you like, then the Bravo is probably the most economical way to go.
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I have a B5 Systems Bravo on my BCM and I really like it. I haven't shot it with a rear support bag, so I don't know how susceptible it is to auto-collapsing when using it, but the lever is pretty stiff so IMO it seems like it would be pretty difficult to get it to collapse without meaning to. Granted, I am far from an expert so take my advice with a grain of salt. Also, the MOE stock is rated at 8 oz while the Bravo is rated at 8.1 oz. I highly doubt you would notice the difference.
Levi
I have basically the same problem with my kiss builds. It becomes everything but a rail as the new definition of kiss.
Started with a come spare parts, a mega lower, and a bcm middy upper. Then needed the raptor, trigger needed to be upgraded, might as well put on a bad Cass, dang I might as well upgrade the trigger guard for when I shoot ungloved. Added a did a1.5 rear with a t1, mossie mount and x300u. Didn't have to upgrade the stock and grip because I built from scratch as well as the a5.
...I have fired ARs with both the MOE and C8 handguards; I like both, but I like feel and look of the C8 a little more. I can always change handguards out later though, they are not expensive so I'm not too concerned.
I did not know about that mount, it looks like a great setup. I already have an X300 on my G17 which is my current home defense gun, so that would work perfectly...
I have used the Mossie Tactical Midnight Mount for a year or two with both the Magpul MOE hanguard and the round handguard. The MOE is longer and makes using a light mounted in the Mossie Midnight mount MUCH easier. I find the extra length of the MOE guards useful when shooting as well.
Mossie Tactical Midnight Mount with round handguards
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0019_zps6e67bfe3.jpg
With the Magpul MOE handguards
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/CarbineSurefire003.jpg
A close-up of the mount with the MOE. You can see how the MOE extends past the handguard ring. This extra length makes it easier to use the light
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_A.jpg
I really like the Mossie Midnight Mount and the X300 light. For my use, it's a great combo. Yes, the sticker shock for the light gave me a good spanking when I bought it, but I now feel it was money well spent
Eurodriver
03-26-14, 10:52
I really don't think "KISS" exists anymore, except for maybe someone who wants a cheap truck gun with iron sites that can't be taken out by an EMP.
You picked the best RDS out there, so you're good in that regard. You've got a good light and a good weapon. Just add a sling to your list and you're good.
Since we're posting pics...
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_20140326_111647_842_zps2b626022.jpg
I really don't think "KISS" exists anymore
Gene Simmons is coming out with a KISS carbine. FINALLY a real KISS carbine!
Gene Simmons is coming out with a KISS carbine. FINALLY a real KISS carbine!
They could call it the "Love Gun", perhaps.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/ysyqetuj.jpg
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I'm going to get KISS engraved on a lower now. ;)
AR newbie here. I want to put together a simple, reliable, all-around carbine. I plan to use it for courses, plinking, and if necessary self-defense both inside and outside the home at realistic combat distances (I live in an urban/suburban area). Plan to run primarily M193/M855 and maybe some of the heavier loadings, but would like to be able to shoot the cheap steel-cased stuff as well.
After much research, this is the setup I think I want:
BCM complete upper, 16" BHF barrel, midlength gas, 1:7 twist
BCM complete lower
Cav Arms C8 handguards
B5 Systems SOPMOD Bravo stock
Aimpoint T1 on Larue LT660 mount
Larue LT103 BUIS
Surefire G2 in Elzetta ZFH-1500 mount
Does this look like the ideal setup for my needs and preferences? Am I missing anything?
Thanks
To save weight and money, switch the LT Micro mount for the DD and the LT BUIS for the DD.
I would also switch the G2 for the Fury Defender (LED, 500 lumens and momentary only tail cap).
C4
davidjinks
03-26-14, 13:09
Your setup looks pretty good. As was stated a couple times, only you can decide what is KISS for you.
For me, my KISS setup is a Colt LE6920, Vickers sling, KAC RAS, iron sights, SF Scout light on a HSP mount and KAC vertical grip. It's a solid, simple setup with minimal amount of electronics. It'll do everything I need it to do from 0-300 yards with either M193 or MK262 ammo. It's light enough and maneuverable enough for my needs in either a HD role or range role.
AR newbie here. I want to put together a simple, reliable, all-around carbine. I plan to use it for courses, plinking, and if necessary self-defense both inside and outside the home at realistic combat distances (I live in an urban/suburban area). Plan to run primarily M193/M855 and maybe some of the heavier loadings, but would like to be able to shoot the cheap steel-cased stuff as well.
After much research, this is the setup I think I want:
BCM complete upper, 16" BHF barrel, midlength gas, 1:7 twist
BCM complete lower
Cav Arms C8 handguards
B5 Systems SOPMOD Bravo stock
Aimpoint T1 on Larue LT660 mount
Larue LT103 BUIS
Surefire G2 in Elzetta ZFH-1500 mount
Does this look like the ideal setup for my needs and preferences? Am I missing anything?
Thanks
To save weight and money, switch the LT Micro mount for the DD and the LT BUIS for the DD.
Late to the party, so all I can do is second this advice.
The Centurion C4 rails are great for that considering, the FSP ones on a fixed FSB build are great. The Cutout Middy rail on the BCM is great, otherwise just get a BCM Complete Middy rifle (or get the Colt 6920 and put the Centurion C4 12.0FSP rails), put some useful hardware on it (pretty much any surefire light), and you're set.
For reference a carbine handguard setup with the C4FSP and SF X300 out front:
http://oi47.tinypic.com/1zldx14.jpg
St.Michael
03-27-14, 21:08
I have moe guards on my noveske 14.5. I run that and DD irons. That's it. Simple is nice.
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