View Full Version : 12" FSP Carbine Forend (with cutout) vs no cutout with flip up front sight?
I'm just ordered my first AR, Norinco CQA 14.5 (I'm in Canada) and I'm trying to decide which forend to get to replace the plastic stock forend. I'm wondering what the pros and cons are with getting a carbine forend that's 12" with the cutout (such as the ones offered by Daniel Defense) to accomodate the FSP and gas block vs going with a 12" or so forend and getting a low profile gas block and flip up front sights. I'm asking more in terms of functionality and tactical use. I understand the implications with installation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the general consensus is that a longer forend is better due to the modern stretched out grip. I feel that the 7" forend is too short. I would like for this thread not to turn into a debate about which grip is better, I've read enough of them and several very well written posts by Failure2Stop regarding why the modern grip is better and I'm inclined to believe him. Regardless, I would rather have a longer forend anyway so I can have the options of implementing either grip. I'm new to ARs so I would appreciate any help as I'm trying to wrap my mind around the rationales for certain set ups.
Upsides to a cut-out forend:
- no, or at least less, gunsmithing
- less expensive; no need to buy a replacement front sight or gas block if you're not cutting down the stock one
- able to restore the rifle to stock configuration
- durability; the stock FSB is arguably stronger than any other front sight option
Downsides to a cut-out forend:
- the stock FSB in the middle of your extended forend limits your grip/attachment options; it could be right where you want to put something else (like your hand)
- the stock FSB gets really hot
- it is usually heavier
- there are fewer cut-out forends on the market
- the forends need to be wider, or at least bulge, to get around the bayonet lug and the front sling swivel mount
Wolfpack45
03-26-14, 15:35
What he said ^
You'll find people on both sides of the argument as to which is better. It all comes down to what you want for you.
Unless your primary aiming device is irons, then I'd not have that big annoying and potentially hot iron sight sticking up through the rail right where I may want to put my hand.
I tried to live with FSBs for a long time, but they get on my nerves and I have NEVER needed my buis. EVER. Not even once.
Oddly, I have two of each setup, and my choice on having FSB/fixed irons or going with folding sights on the handguard has everything to do with the optic, and exactly naught to do with anything else. For a fixed 1x optic (Aimpoint Micro in lower 1/3 mount) then I want fixed, so I run something like the Centurion C4FSP on my carbines. For low powered variables (like my Trijicon TR24RT) I want folding sights, so I go low profile gas block under.
7" is really short, either of these longer options is a massive improvement - but if you're having to do a lot of gunsmithing, I'd be partial to the straight top rail instead of the FSP cutout flavors, just because it provides more options. Sure leaving the FSB intact makes it more durable in absurd conditions, but a good FF handguard and fixed front sight is probably more durable than the person it's attached to.
I have a FSP cut out DD rail and I feel my thumb want be right where the sight is. Its not a real big deal but..
If you want to run a long rail I would go with a shaved down FSP gives which gives you a pinned gas block.
Upsides to a cut-out forend:
- no, or at least less, gunsmithing
- less expensive; no need to buy a replacement front sight or gas block if you're not cutting down the stock one
- able to restore the rifle to stock configuration
- durability; the stock FSB is arguably stronger than any other front sight option
Downsides to a cut-out forend:
- the stock FSB in the middle of your extended forend limits your grip/attachment options; it could be right where you want to put something else (like your hand)
- the stock FSB gets really hot
- it is usually heavier
- there are fewer cut-out forends on the market
- the forends need to be wider, or at least bulge, to get around the bayonet lug and the front sling swivel mount
This ^
Also, if you decide to go with the lo-pro gas block, you might be better of just shaving down the stock FSB. It's cheaper than buying a new one and it's already pinned to your barrel.
Levi
F-Trooper05
03-26-14, 20:18
Big fan of front sight posts. Even on my KAC, I rock with my flip-up front sight up. I find it helps me acquire my red dot faster. I wish someone made a full length cutout rail for a middy, because every one of my guns would have a front sight post if they did.
Big fan of front sight posts. Even on my KAC, I rock with my flip-up front sight up. I find it helps me acquire my red dot faster. I wish someone made a full length cutout rail for a middy, because every one of my guns would have a front sight post if they did.
Troy makes their delta and charlie rails in mid length cut outs AFAIK
Upsides to a cut-out forend:
- no, or at least less, gunsmithing
- less expensive; no need to buy a replacement front sight or gas block if you're not cutting down the stock one
- able to restore the rifle to stock configuration
- durability; the stock FSB is arguably stronger than any other front sight option
Downsides to a cut-out forend:
- the stock FSB in the middle of your extended forend limits your grip/attachment options; it could be right where you want to put something else (like your hand)
- the stock FSB gets really hot
- it is usually heavier
- there are fewer cut-out forends on the market
- the forends need to be wider, or at least bulge, to get around the bayonet lug and the front sling swivel mount
Thanks!
Oddly, I have two of each setup, and my choice on having FSB/fixed irons or going with folding sights on the handguard has everything to do with the optic, and exactly naught to do with anything else. For a fixed 1x optic (Aimpoint Micro in lower 1/3 mount) then I want fixed, so I run something like the Centurion C4FSP on my carbines. For low powered variables (like my Trijicon TR24RT) I want folding sights, so I go low profile gas block under.
7" is really short, either of these longer options is a massive improvement - but if you're having to do a lot of gunsmithing, I'd be partial to the straight top rail instead of the FSP cutout flavors, just because it provides more options. Sure leaving the FSB intact makes it more durable in absurd conditions, but a good FF handguard and fixed front sight is probably more durable than the person it's attached to.
Can you please elaborate on why you want the fixed front sight with a 1x optic, and a flip up with a low powered variable? Low powered variable is something like 1-4x magnification? I'm sorry I'm really new to all these. I'm planning to just run a red dot when I can afford to buy one. I don't think I will be using the irons that much, except only if I feel like shooting long range for fun. For training, it will be with CQB in mind.
I have a FSP cut out DD rail and I feel my thumb want be right where the sight is. Its not a real big deal but..
If you want to run a long rail I would go with a shaved down FSP gives which gives you a pinned gas block.
This ^
Also, if you decide to go with the lo-pro gas block, you might be better of just shaving down the stock FSB. It's cheaper than buying a new one and it's already pinned to your barrel.
Levi
By "shaving" the stock FSB, are you guys talking about cutting it off with a dremel? I saw a youtube video about this. But don't you have to take it off the barrel anyway though before you work on it? I have to learn more about the process but it seems simpler to just buy a low profile gas block and swap it out. What am I missing here?
This is a shaved FSB. It's already taper pinned to the barrel, so it's in the right place and two taper is the strongest way to mount a gas block. I did this with a 4 1/2" grinder and some files.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/para%20venta/004_zps6ded6b7d.jpg
I always opt for midlength gas when there is no FSB and the tube is at least rifle length. I find this setup to be superior, generally.
That being said, I find the FSP cutout setups to be easier shooting, in regards to burns. I rarely move my hand back because of the front sight on the cut out tube, so the FSP doesn't burn me. On a straight tube my hand is more likely to be over the gas block and get burned especially if there is an X200 mounted at 12 o'clock.
That is more of a user error problem on my part, but it happens.
Big fan of front sight posts. Even on my KAC, I rock with my flip-up front sight up. I find it helps me acquire my red dot faster. I wish someone made a full length cutout rail for a middy, because every one of my guns would have a front sight post if they did.
yep, at least as of a few months troy was the only one I could find anywhere
https://troyind.com/products/delta-mid-length-blk
There are different ways to shave it. Someone who knows more than me can probably give you better advice than me on what way works best. Robb Jensen and Iraqgunz are good people to ask about really any gunsmithing you want to do. You wouldn't have to take off the FSB to shave it but most handguards would require a new bbl nut so you would have to remove it anyway. The nice thing about FSBs is that they have tapered pins instead of set screws like most low profile gas blocks. Tapered pins are generally considered to be a better option.
Levi
Edit: I started typing this about an hour ago but I got interrupted. Sorry about that!
F-Trooper05
03-27-14, 00:23
yep, at least as of a few months troy was the only one I could find anywhere
https://troyind.com/products/delta-mid-length-blk
Troy makes their delta and charlie rails in mid length cut outs AFAIK
Should've said someone other than Troy. I'm done with their rails.
Should've said someone other than Troy. I'm done with their rails.
This: http://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15_html/product/Evolution-9EX.html
Plus this: http://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15_html/product/4_Rail_Extension.html
Probably. But never seen it done with a FSP.
Centurion
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975
Can you please elaborate on why you want the fixed front sight with a 1x optic, and a flip up with a low powered variable? Low powered variable is something like 1-4x magnification? I'm sorry I'm really new to all these. I'm planning to just run a red dot when I can afford to buy one. I don't think I will be using the irons that much, except only if I feel like shooting long range for fun. For training, it will be with CQB in mind.
With a 1-4x (or 1-6x) optic, I like being able to move the sights out of the way (since the rear has to be flipped down anyway). Deployment time/transition to iron sights is based on removing the optic mounted anyway (unless one is running offset iron sights), so I like being able to move the front sight out of the way like the rear. For an aimpoint equipped rifle (if budget is a concern, the Aimpoint PRO and Aimpoint H-1 are the best value optics out there - spend any less than either of these and you just get less), there isn't a need to put the rear down, and a taller mount means you can see through almost all of the optic while having the iron sights already in place and ready to go - for CQB applications, this is ideal, because if you need to switch to irons from the red dot it needs to be virtually instant, and having fixed iron sights enables exactly that.
FriggetyFrak
03-27-14, 21:56
Big fan of front sight posts. Even on my KAC, I rock with my flip-up front sight up. I find it helps me acquire my red dot faster. I wish someone made a full length cutout rail for a middy, because every one of my guns would have a front sight post if they did.
I just purchased and installed the Troy Delta for my midlength. I put it on 2 days ago and haven't had a chance to shoot with it yet, but I'm satisfied with the solid feel and my hand placement on the rail. Its long, about 15 inches on the top rail and just under 14.5 inches on the tube itself since it butts up against the delta ring. It has about 4 inches of top rail extending ahead of the FSP.
With a 1-4x (or 1-6x) optic, I like being able to move the sights out of the way (since the rear has to be flipped down anyway). Deployment time/transition to iron sights is based on removing the optic mounted anyway (unless one is running offset iron sights), so I like being able to move the front sight out of the way like the rear. For an aimpoint equipped rifle (if budget is a concern, the Aimpoint PRO and Aimpoint H-1 are the best value optics out there - spend any less than either of these and you just get less), there isn't a need to put the rear down, and a taller mount means you can see through almost all of the optic while having the iron sights already in place and ready to go - for CQB applications, this is ideal, because if you need to switch to irons from the red dot it needs to be virtually instant, and having fixed iron sights enables exactly that.
This is what they mean when they say co-witnessing, right? So if I want to optimize my rifle for CQB, I should opt for fixed front sight (whether stock or aftermarket) and fixed rear then..What's an ideal height for a mount for an optic? I would think that this is important to consider as it would affect holdover?
This is a shaved FSB. It's already taper pinned to the barrel, so it's in the right place and two taper is the strongest way to mount a gas block. I did this with a 4 1/2" grinder and some files.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/sammuse/para%20venta/004_zps6ded6b7d.jpg
I watched some youtube vids on this and I must say you did an awesome job with yours.
This is what they mean when they say co-witnessing, right? So if I want to optimize my rifle for CQB, I should opt for fixed front sight (whether stock or aftermarket) and fixed rear then..What's an ideal height for a mount for an optic? I would think that this is important to consider as it would affect holdover?
I'm guessing you're talking about a mount for a red dot sight? If so, there are only two height options I know of -- absolute and lower 1/3 co-witness. Absolute co-witness means that your sights will align in the center of the RDS. A lower 1/3 co-witness will have your sights align at the lower 1/3 of the RDS. I prefer a lower 1/3 with fixed sights because you have a clearer field of view through your sight.
Honestly, with the reliability of Aimpoints now, you are probably okay going with flip-ups. There is definitely nothing wrong with deciding to go with fixed sights though.
Levi
I'm guessing you're talking about a mount for a red dot sight? If so, there are only two height options I know of -- absolute and lower 1/3 co-witness. Absolute co-witness means that your sights will align in the center of the RDS. A lower 1/3 co-witness will have your sights align at the lower 1/3 of the RDS. I prefer a lower 1/3 with fixed sights because you have a clearer field of view through your sight.
Honestly, with the reliability of Aimpoints now, you are probably okay going with flip-ups. There is definitely nothing wrong with deciding to go with fixed sights though.
Levi
Yes, I was referring to a mount for a red dot. Ok thanks everyone for the replies.
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