View Full Version : So Im kinda moving away from glocks
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 14:34
After shooting, owning numerous glocks and shooting them for 4 years, even taking some classes with
some SMEs , I am pretty much decided to finally move away from glocks
I have own 4 glocks 2 17s and a 19 gen 3 and one 19 gen 4
I recently bought , ( or should I say traded a g 26 and a pos cetme ) for a gen 4 19 with the hopes that putting an Apex extractor It would stop the BTF issues,
I tried it with my other glocks but still get occasional BTF, The gen 4 is the worst, Because I get hit in the left eye several times. Luckily I wear glasses, But still not cool
I know there are way too many threads on here about glock extractor issues but I needed to rant, and ask advice. I also own a HK p30 LEM and a PPQ, I shot the P30 a couple months ago and the PPQ again today I seem to shoot the PPQ a little better, But the availability of aftermarket parts for the PPQ are not as available as the P30, and neither have availability as glock. I am not a fan of the P 30 trigger but with practice I think I can be ok. I also prefer a striker fired pistol, as many people on here and some SMEs believe hammer fired pistols are obsolete.
I pretty much decided to use only one of 2 platforms hk p30 or walther PPQ
My other thought was to send in my glocks to Randy Lee to have the ejection port window lowered, but I am leery of the final option because I dont know if over time it would cause a crack in the slide.
Any thoughts/ feedback would be appreciative.
If i'm following your post correctly, all of your glocks exhibit btf? Were they all bought around the same time 09-2012/early13? If so, maybe you should try and sell them, and buy a newer 2014 production glock. I''ve heard of people having better luck with those. Also the P30 and ppq are both respectable platofrms. However, if you like their ergonomics and still want abundant aftermarket availability, i'd consider a M&P with a stormlake fitted barrel from Grant. Price wise, that should slide in between the ppq and p30.
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 15:09
the gen 3s where all bout between 2010 and the gen 4 brand new 2014
I had an M&P before not a fan
and yes they all exhibit Btf
PalmettoPrecision
03-26-14, 15:12
You have four years of familiarity with an outstanding handgun platform. Why switch? It's almost like starting over. The late problems with new Glock pistols can be fixed rather easily, it seems.
Sorry about your bad luck even with the recent production g19. As a side note, have you experienced btf with carry ammo, or only practice ammo? If you shoot the ppq better, i'd go with it. Also, Trijicon is releasing their HD sights for the ppq. They're one of my favorite sights, and there are a few good holsters out there as well. With the ppq's popularity I can only image that more and more aftermarket companies will start manufacturing parts. Also is your hk a v1 lem? if not i'd try one of those because the trigger is lighter than the other lem models -closer tho the walthers pull, but with a much longer reset.
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 15:20
You have four years of familiarity with an outstanding handgun platform. Why switch? It's almost like starting over. The late problems with new Glock pistols can be fixed rather easily, it seems.
not really + there are many others who switched
I wont go into details but if you do a search on here about glock extraction issues youll see what i mean
PalmettoPrecision
03-26-14, 15:31
not really + there are many others who switched
I wont go into details but if you do a search on here about glock extraction issues youll see what i mean
I've read all about them. Sending it back to glock isn't a bad idea either. It could also be the ejector. It's hard to argue that these problems aren't almost exclusively related to a bad ejector or extractor (or both). Then again, you could just send them all to me if you just can't take it anymore :lol:
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 15:46
Never mind kind of should have just took a poll
instead of over complicating things
IF mods want to close or delete please feel free. Sorry for wasting time
BTF drove me to the PPQ. Recently bought my second PPQ...sold my Glock and never looked back. Don't miss it a bit even though the BTF issue was fixed by some Apex machinations. For me, especially not being overly invested in Glock accoutrements, absolutely no point in keeping the Glock around, even a functional one. I find the PPQ vastly superior.
.
Crow Hunter
03-26-14, 15:54
not really + there are many others who switched
I wont go into details but if you do a search on here about glock extraction issues youll see what i mean
There are also lots of people that switched and then switched back and many others (who are exceptional shooters) who have switched to "obsolete" hammer fired DA/SA guns.;)
If you aren't confident in your guns, go with something else. Even if it is all in your mind, it will hinder your improvement.
While all guns may give you BTF (I have read about and experienced multiple brands doing it), confidence in the gun you are shooting is important to get you to focus on software not on your hardware.
That being said. You need to ignore most of the anecdotes on the internet. Other than a few vetted examples it is impossible to tell the difference between an actual bonafide user, a kid in his mom's basement that has never shot a gun, a person who shoots 50rds a year with "flawless" performance, an astroturfer looking to drum up business or a troll just trying to stir up crap about a particular brand of gun.
You will really have to buy and see what works for YOU and makes YOU confident via YOUR particular guns performance with YOUR shooting abilities. Not what you read on the errornet. ;)
the gen 3s where all bout between 2010 and the gen 4 brand new 2014
I had an M&P before not a fan
and yes they all exhibit Btf
The HK and PPQ are both excellent choices. If you haven't looked at a newer M&P (under 6 months old), they have improved.
C4
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 16:19
The HK and PPQ are both excellent choices. If you haven't looked at a newer M&P (under 6 months old), they have improved.
C4
Thanks Grant I know they are both excellent which is why its hard for me to decide
I actually had an M&P in both 9 and 45 not liking the trigger and accuracy issues + I had numerous magazine springs bend on the 45 with Smith and Wesson sending me new springs with no fix or acknowledging there was a problem Kinda like Glock wont admit to having a problem with BTF
I have an HK45c and a PPQ. I also have 5 9mm Glocks and 10 years experience with them.
Each time I shoot I more and more strongly consider the full switch to the PPQ. I am largely invested in Glock both in gear and time and training, the performance of the PPQ is really pulling me in.
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 16:23
BTF drove me to the PPQ. Recently bought my second PPQ...sold my Glock and never looked back. Don't miss it a bit even though the BTF issue was fixed by some Apex machinations. For me, especially not being overly invested in Glock accoutrements, absolutely no point in keeping the Glock around, even a functional one. I find the PPQ vastly superior.
.
You and I talked before Whats your round count on the PPQ? And have you been able to find anyone to sell after market parts besides Earls?
I'm a big Glock guy. Bought my first in 1988. I've got four gen 4s, two are 9mm and no issues. Why not look for a RTF2 in 17 and/or 19?
I owned a PPQ for awhile. Nice gun. Didn't like the paddle mag release or high bore axis, but if getting completely away from Glocks, that's the plastic I'd carry.
Thanks Grant I know they are both excellent which is why its hard for me to decide
I actually had an M&P in both 9 and 45 not liking the trigger and accuracy issues + I had numerous magazine springs bend on the 45 with Smith and Wesson sending me new springs with no fix or acknowledging there was a problem Kinda like Glock wont admit to having a problem with BTF
From what I have seen, the accuracy is pretty much a none problem with new guns IMHO.
C4
Grant, do you think there's any chance of S&W making a g19 sized m&p anytime soon?
Grant, do you think there's any chance of S&W making a g19 sized m&p anytime soon?
None.
C4
You and I talked before Whats your round count on the PPQ? And have you been able to find anyone to sell after market parts besides Earls?
I have 5500 rounds through my first PPQ (BC) and about 500 rounds through the BD I got a couple of months ago. Haven't needed any maintenance parts, but I did buy some recoil springs, a striker assy, extractor and some other doodads from Earl's as I was closing in on 5000 rounds just in case. Getting them was certainly was no problem. Everything was readily available in stock and they shipped immediately. I've had no problem getting sights and holsters that work great for me (Dawson, 10-8, BladeTech, RCS, DeSantis). I can't think of any other aftermarket parts I need or want since I don't need to fix any ejection issues like my Glock or deal with an aftermarket barrel to get accuracy like I did with my M&P, or fix a crappy trigger like I did with both the Glock and the M&P.
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 16:56
Thanks for everyone's input
Phillygunguy
03-26-14, 19:34
There are also lots of people that switched and then switched back and many others (who are exceptional shooters) who have switched to "obsolete" hammer fired DA/SA guns.;)
If you aren't confident in your guns, go with something else. Even if it is all in your mind, it will hinder your improvement.
While all guns may give you BTF (I have read about and experienced multiple brands doing it), confidence in the gun you are shooting is important to get you to focus on software not on your hardware.
That being said. You need to ignore most of the anecdotes on the internet. Other than a few vetted examples it is impossible to tell the difference between an actual bonafide user, a kid in his mom's basement that has never shot a gun, a person who shoots 50rds a year with "flawless" performance, an astroturfer looking to drum up business or a troll just trying to stir up crap about a particular brand of gun.
You will really have to buy and see what works for YOU and makes YOU confident via YOUR particular guns performance with YOUR shooting abilities. Not what you read on the errornet. ;)
no errornet hearsay I am Having BTF with glocks and those who say hammer are obsolete are some SMEs not some kid in thier moms basement
davidjinks
03-26-14, 19:56
Delete
Go ahead and make a switch...try something new. You can always go back if you like...that's the good thing about utility guns, they're not that costly.
As for me and my family we're Sig & Smith. I'm really thinking about giving one of the 320's a try when I come across one, just to see what sig thinks a striker trigger should feel like.
I like shooting my Glock 20 better than my PPQ, its a "smoother" shooter compared to the snappy 40. The G20 is a big gun though. They did a great job with the Gen 4
I love my PPQ, and shoot it way better than my G19.
If you like Glock and really don't want to switch platforms, why not try (early/used) Gen3's as recommended multiple times by many respected members on the forum?
Caveat: I grew up shooting 1911s and only have one Gen3 G19, which I am not very proficient with...
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 06:51
Scooter, I have 3 gen 3s still occasional btf tried the Apex extractors did nothing to improve it. That's not to say their junk, its the luck of the draw ( its a glock problem not an Apex problem) And before you tell me get an early gen 3 or gen 2, It's easier to find a Faberge egg, these days, I actually found and bought an early gen 3 late 90s and my luck the slide cracked.:confused:
Crow Hunter
03-27-14, 07:20
no errornet hearsay I am Having BTF with glocks and those who say hammer are obsolete are some SMEs not some kid in thier moms basement
Not saying that you aren't.
I am saying go off your own experience, not what people you don't know and have never met say on the internet about YOUR guns. There are people like me who have Glocks that don't have BTF issues. There are people who own S&W M&Ps who don't have accuracy problems. There are people who own S&W Shields that don't have the problems that Ed and Skintop have. There are people who own perfectly reliable and durable Cohen era Sigs (my brother has one). I know of one person who had a HK P30 that always threw brass at his forehead even after tweaking it.
I have been shooting Glocks since 1997 and I even have a couple of G19s from that problem period. While I occasionally get a piece of brass thrown at my head, and always have (it is a "feature":rolleyes: of the design), I have shot enough with them that I am confident in them despite issues I read on the errornet. If I were not, I would go with whatever I shot well and had confidence in. Even if it was a Hi-point or a Taurus.
You are obviously having a crisis in confidence in your firearm of choice. It sounds like it is a warranted crisis. You should seek out a different firearm that you will perform better with and have more confidence in. All I am saying is don't base that confidence or lack there of on what you read from others on the internet. Go out and try them for yourself. If you base your choice on what you read on the internet, you will only buy guns that have so few examples available in the hands of shooters that no problems have surfaced and been reported yet;).
There are also SMEs who stay that hammer guns are superior to striker fired guns, you just need to pick what works best for you and your carry method, not what a SME that may or may not carry/use a gun the way you do recommends.
PM sent.
Psalms144.1
03-27-14, 07:59
So, as a guy who has been down this trail several times, let me share some thoughts:
1. Anyone who says that the Glock extraction/BTF problem is a myth is simply a head-in-the-sand fanboi. I know, I had FIVE bad G19s in a row between 2010-2012, three of those factory replacements of replacements. It happens. Unfortunately, in my experience, if you get one that's really bad out of the box, NOTHING will fix it. I'm on G19 #6 now, and it works, but I had to go the Apex extractor route to make it reliable.
2. When I got fed up with Glock's BS (and I wasn't even paying for shipping, as an LEO end-user), I switched to the P30. I gave it a REALLY hard go, worked that LEM trigger for all its worth for well over a year of hard training. My thoughts: First - the P30 is SIGNIFICANTLY more mechanically accurate than any G19 I've ever owned. If you really don't think so, go work the 25 yard line, shooting at 3x5" cards, with both pistols - and post hit percentages. Second - bore axis is a NON-issue for me and many other shooters. For the love of all that's holy, it's a 9mm! It doesn't have a lot of muzzle flip to start with. Any reasonably proper grip (two-handed, WHO, or SHO) will NOT cause your "splits" to be appreciably faster, if you ties those splits to ACCURACY. Yes, I can get sub-.15 splits with my G19 if I'm shooting at an IDPA cardboard at 5 yards and just want to hit the silhouette. But, if I want to keep everything in the A zone, or, better yet, the head box, at 7-25 yards, split times are a myth. Third - trigger. HKs DA/SA triggers SUCK except their match version. Period. I "grew up" shooting Berettas and Sigs (old Sigs that I wish I'd never sold) so I'm not "against" the TDA trigger. But, for whatever reason, HK simply can't figure out how to build one where the DA isn't abusively heavy, and the SA isn't creepy/mushy with a longish reset. Now enter the LEM. There are a lot of "switched on" guys who think it's the ultimate "street" trigger, and I'm not sure I disagree. But, especially in the P30, it suffers from a fairly hard "wall" at the end of a basically no-resistance take up, and the reset is long. Not Sig DAK long, but LONG - and it'll give you fits if you're used to a Glock's reset. Don't get me wrong, it's not a BAD trigger, it's just different, and takes a LOT of training to get used to. Most people who try the switch just rip through the "takeup" slack, then "stage" at the wall and SNATCH the trigger when the sights line up; then moan about the gun shooting left and low. To really master the trigger, you have to run it all the way through in smooth, continually increasing pressure, which, honestly is a skill that takes a lot of work to master. Lastly, the P30 is NOT very size efficient; the grip is long and wide, more in line with the G17 or M&P FS grip, making it harder to conceal than the G19, but with the same capacity. For the life of me, I simply cannot understand why anyone would ever mate a short slide to a long grip - nonsensical from a carry perspective. Because of this, I have pretty well dumped the P30 as a carry gun, and carry a P2000 instead - which is slightly smaller/lighter than the G19, though it gives up capacity.
The PPQ has all the P30's strengths and weaknesses, EXCEPT being hindered with a difficult trigger. Couple its size inefficiency with difficulty in gaining support (if needed) and with Walther's apparently Sig-like fascination with changing models every year, and I'm really not interested.
So, where am I today? Torn, between the G19 and P2000 with TGS LEM trigger. What's on my hip right now? G19. What's on my hip most of the time? G19. Why? Because when all is said and done, it's accurate ENOUGH to get the job done inside 15 yards, and workable at 25, though the particular G19 on my hip is the LEAST accurate G19 I've ever owned. I've even gone as far as to try a KKM precision barrel in it, which led to a measurable improvement, but then I started having reliability issues. And, frankly, after-market support for the P2000 is limited, options are thin and expensive; contrasted to the G19, where I can go into any sight/holster/mag pouch vendor and buy whatever I think I want or need off the shelf, for all intents and purposes.
I think, based on Glock's continuing problems (I understand that PA State Police adopted the Gen4 G21, but are probably going to drop it due to reliability issues) that 10 years from now, they'll be a strong competitor in the market, but nowhere near the dominant force they are today. Do I think the P30 (or the SFP developed off of it) will be king? Heck no, the P30 will continue to be a connoisseur's gun for people looking to take things up a notch in performance and price. Given Walthers continuing logistics issues, I don't see the PPQ taking real hold either. My crystal ball tells me that, 10 years from now, the LE force will be split between Glock & M&P, with Sig & FN filling in the gaps. HK will continue to feed high-end products to small, discerning end-users, and Walther will still be a cool gun that some guys love.
Which brings up another point. Firearms are like fashion accessories in some circles, especially in competition-heavy areas. All it takes is for one "name" to start touting the new "superblaster 30000," and suddenly everyone on the interweb wants a superblaster 30000. Don't let other people's posts drive you into a very expensive decision; try things out for yourself.
Sorry for the extensive rant, but I hate to see other folks suffer the way I have.
^ Very well stated post, thank you.
I can only offer my personal experience. I don't discredit anybody else's experiences
I have been shooting Glocks of all calibers for over 20 years.
In 2007 i switched to 9mm Gen3 Glocks. I don't own any other platform or any other caliber. Never a BTF
I've had basic and advanced training and continue to train. I know a lot of better shooters than me
For the last couple of years I've watched a security detail begin to reluctantly transition from HK USPs compacts to Glocks. Never a BTF. Performance has improved significantly in training. I attribute this to the Glock trigger.
I just purchased a Gen4 G19 with a birthdate of March 2014.
This is the best Glock I own (so far). Very accurate. Great trigger. Soft shooter. Strong and positive ejection. No BTFs. Now I want another one.....
From my limited experience and statistically insignificant sample I conclude (with caution and hesitation) that Glock has straightened out the problems
Bill
The PPQ has all the P30's strengths and weaknesses, EXCEPT being hindered with a difficult trigger. Couple its size inefficiency with difficulty in gaining support (if needed) and with Walther's apparently Sig-like fascination with changing models every year, and I'm really not interested.
The PPQ is about 3/16 inch longer in the grip, otherwise same size and exactly the same weight as a Glock 19.
Doc Safari
03-27-14, 09:44
And before you tell me get an early gen 3 or gen 2, It's easier to find a Faberge egg, these days...
True that. It had been about five years since I'd even seen a Gen 2 Glock 9mm at a gun show. A few weeks ago I finally saw one. I stopped to talk to a friend I ran into, and that Glock was gone when I looked again!
I've gotten rid of all my Glocks. My current "carry" piece is a no-lock Smith 642. Last time I saw a 642 in a gun shop it had the internal lock, so I guess the no-lock version really was a "limited" edition. Sad.
I'm at a juncture where I want a defensive handgun that 1) I don't have to "fix" right out of the box, 2) that is durable enough that I won't be changing parts in a few thousand rounds, 3) that is affordable enough that I'm not tempted to build a shrine around it rather than putting live ammo through it, 4) that is reliable with a variety of ammo types, and 5) that has readily available and affordable accessories.
Is there such a pistol?
Crow Hunter
03-27-14, 10:06
True that. It had been about five years since I'd even seen a Gen 2 Glock 9mm at a gun show. A few weeks ago I finally saw one. I stopped to talk to a friend I ran into, and that Glock was gone when I looked again!
I've gotten rid of all my Glocks. My current "carry" piece is a no-lock Smith 642. Last time I saw a 642 in a gun shop it had the internal lock, so I guess the no-lock version really was a "limited" edition. Sad.
I'm at a juncture where I want a defensive handgun that 1) I don't have to "fix" right out of the box, 2) that is durable enough that I won't be changing parts in a few thousand rounds, 3) that is affordable enough that I'm not tempted to build a shrine around it rather than putting live ammo through it, 4) that is reliable with a variety of ammo types, and 5) that has readily available and affordable accessories.
Is there such a pistol?
I think you can pick any 2 of those but not all of them at once.:cool:
True that. It had been about five years since I'd even seen a Gen 2 Glock 9mm at a gun show. A few weeks ago I finally saw one. I stopped to talk to a friend I ran into, and that Glock was gone when I looked again!
I've gotten rid of all my Glocks. My current "carry" piece is a no-lock Smith 642. Last time I saw a 642 in a gun shop it had the internal lock, so I guess the no-lock version really was a "limited" edition. Sad.
I'm at a juncture where I want a defensive handgun that 1) I don't have to "fix" right out of the box, 2) that is durable enough that I won't be changing parts in a few thousand rounds, 3) that is affordable enough that I'm not tempted to build a shrine around it rather than putting live ammo through it, 4) that is reliable with a variety of ammo types, and 5) that has readily available and affordable accessories.
Is there such a pistol?
Yes, and there's a thread talking about it right now. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07
Doc Safari
03-27-14, 10:17
Yes, and there's a thread talking about it right now. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07
Call me when people have had a chance to run these hard.
Call me when people have had a chance to run these hard.
I believe Mike Pannone has used his quite a bit and has very positive things to say. Anyways, the point of that thread is to gather opinions and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any significant number of people who have had problems. The early P07s had a "problem" where the polymer frame had a gap between itself and the steel sub-frame inserts but other than looking bad when the slide was off I don't believe there were ever any malfunctions attributed to it. In any case, CZ replaced the guns that people returned for that issue.
I'm not you but I would continue to keep at least a couple Glocks around and shoot them on a regular, if not frequent, basis. These guns are everywhere so maintaining proficiency with them seems advisable.
Anyway it's cool you're finding guns you like better. Enjoy!
Call me when people have had a chance to run these hard.
Already happening. Read Pannones comments in that thread.
C4
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 11:33
I can only offer my personal experience. I don't discredit anybody else's experiences
I have been shooting Glocks of all calibers for over 20 years.
In 2007 i switched to 9mm Gen3 Glocks. I don't own any other platform or any other caliber. Never a BTF
I've had basic and advanced training and continue to train. I know a lot of better shooters than me
For the last couple of years I've watched a security detail begin to reluctantly transition from HK USPs compacts to Glocks. Never a BTF. Performance has improved significantly in training. I attribute this to the Glock trigger.
I just purchased a Gen4 G19 with a birthdate of March 2014.
This is the best Glock I own (so far). Very accurate. Great trigger. Soft shooter. Strong and positive ejection. No BTFs. Now I want another one.....
From my limited experience and statistically insignificant sample I conclude (with caution and hesitation) that Glock has straightened out the problems
Bill
Glock has NOT straightened out any problems. My gen 4 g19 manufactures date of 1/5/2014 is the reason for this thread
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 11:35
I'm not you but I would continue to keep at least a couple Glocks around and shoot them on a regular, if not frequent, basis. These guns are everywhere so maintaining proficiency with them seems advisable.
Anyway it's cool you're finding guns you like better. Enjoy!
I agree 100 % which is why I still shoot glocks
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 11:44
You know I personally feel if Glock went back to the origional design of the ejection port, they would resolve almost all these btf issues, but I have a sneaky suspicion, they got rid of the machinery to do it and why these issues are happening won't admit to it.
Glock has NOT straightened out any problems. My gen 4 g19 manufactures date of 1/5/2014 is the reason for this thread
You are basing your conclusion on your experience and Im basing my conclusion on mine.
Your Glocks give you BTF None of my Glocks give me BTF.
Like I mentioned I don't discredit your experience Why discredit mine?
You are either doing something wrong and/or have bad luck
Im doing something right and/or have good luck
I can accept the fact that you have bad luck and you have several "lemons"
hope the platform change brings you satisfactory results.
Bill
DreadPirateMoyer
03-27-14, 13:24
OP: fellow Pennsylvanian here who had your same issues. I've made the switch, and I'll never look back. I had 1911s that gave me less trouble than some of my Glocks (that I no longer own).
My personal choices for the switch were to Beretta 92s and HK45Cs. I may be in the minority, but I like DA/SA triggers, and I like these guns. They've certainly been more reliable than the Glocks I owned; the Berettas have each gone 2,000 rounds with no malfunctions of any kind (not even a single BTF, which I've occasionally had on older 92s in the count of 1 BTF every 500 rounds or so; this was acceptable to me) and the HKs have each gone 3,000 rounds with no malfunctions of any kind. I haven't torture-tested any of them by throwing them in piles of sand or in the river, but suffice it to say, I'm incredibly happy with my switch.
The cause for the switch was 5 recent-manufacture Glocks in a row that exhibited 2-3 BTF per magazine by the time they hit 1,000-3,000 rounds. All were fixed with Apex machinations (and multiple trips to Glock, which did absolutely nothing to address the problem) save one, which had to have its ejection port lowered and a custom extractor fit to the gun. Once that happened, I made up my mind to switch. It's just not worth the hassle and that's reaching 1911-level right there. I shouldn't have to replace a part out of the box to make sure the gun works, and even less comforting, as they developed BTF problems as they wore, two guns also started showing the classic-Glock-horizontal-stovepipe problem every few magazines. Simply and utterly unacceptable. I will never own another Glock again.
So, in conclusion, my experience with HK would tend to make me suggest going with the P30. After the Glock experiences I went through, I want something that will work right out of the box without a single bit of trouble. HK is the company for that, in my opinion. That's not to say they don't occasionally produce a lemon, but their reliability and reputation speak for themselves on how often that happens. Training will help you overcome the rest.
Hammer fired guns are obsolete? Dang. What am I gonna do that old AR15 now?
And my obsolete hammer fired 1911s were running before your BTF ever started and they're still doing fine now....
That's some obsolete stuff for sure.
Glock has NOT straightened out any problems. My gen 4 g19 manufactures date of 1/5/2014 is the reason for this thread
I don't think they've gotten significantly worse either though.
My first incurable brass to the face was with a Gen2 17.
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 14:24
You are basing your conclusion on your experience and Im basing my conclusion on mine.
Your Glocks give you BTF None of my Glocks give me BTF.
Like I mentioned I don't discredit your experience Why discredit mine?
You are either doing something wrong and/or have bad luck
Im doing something right and/or have good luck
I can accept the fact that you have bad luck and you have several "lemons"
hope the platform change brings you satisfactory results.
Bill
I'm not discrediting you, maybe your glocks run great, that's fine. but you can't say they fixed the problem. I might have bad luck, But until glock recognizes this problem threads like this and on other Gun forums will continue
Psalms144.1
03-27-14, 14:24
The PPQ is about 3/16 inch longer in the grip, otherwise same size and exactly the same weight as a Glock 19.Precisely. And as I have stated, the LENGTH of the grip is what makes a pistol easier or harder to conceal, for those of us who carry in traditional hip-carry (not AIWB, cross draw, shoulder rig, etc). For ME, that extra 3/16", while miniscule on paper, makes all the difference in the world between a pistol that prints under normal covering garments (spring/summer weight, of course) and one that doesn't.
YMMV. If your PPQ or P30 DON'T print for you, and are the cat's pajamas, GREAT! For ME, that little bit makes a difference.
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 14:27
I don't think they've gotten significantly worse either though.
My first incurable brass to the face was with a Gen2 17.
my gen 4 is still worse than my gen 3 and that's with the Apex extractor which had done nothing over the OEM extractor
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 14:32
Hammer fired guns are obsolete? Dang. What am I gonna do that old AR15 now?
And my obsolete hammer fired 1911s were running before your BTF ever started and they're still doing fine now....
That's some obsolete stuff for sure.
Hate to tell you , the 1911 is kinda obsolete too
check out Hilton Yam's article
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 14:37
deleted
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 14:42
OP: fellow Pennsylvanian here who had your same issues. I've made the switch, and I'll never look back. I had 1911s that gave me less trouble than some of my Glocks (that I no longer own).
My personal choices for the switch were to Beretta 92s and HK45Cs. I may be in the minority, but I like DA/SA triggers, and I like these guns. They've certainly been more reliable than the Glocks I owned; the Berettas have each gone 2,000 rounds with no malfunctions of any kind (not even a single BTF, which I've occasionally had on older 92s in the count of 1 BTF every 500 rounds or so; this was acceptable to me) and the HKs have each gone 3,000 rounds with no malfunctions of any kind. I haven't torture-tested any of them by throwing them in piles of sand or in the river, but suffice it to say, I'm incredibly happy with my switch.
The cause for the switch was 5 recent-manufacture Glocks in a row that exhibited 2-3 BTF per magazine by the time they hit 1,000-3,000 rounds. All were fixed with Apex machinations (and multiple trips to Glock, which did absolutely nothing to address the problem) save one, which had to have its ejection port lowered and a custom extractor fit to the gun. Once that happened, I made up my mind to switch. It's just not worth the hassle and that's reaching 1911-level right there. I shouldn't have to replace a part out of the box to make sure the gun works, and even less comforting, as they developed BTF problems as they wore, two guns also started showing the classic-Glock-horizontal-stovepipe problem every few magazines. Simply and utterly unacceptable. I will never own another Glock again.
So, in conclusion, my experience with HK would tend to make me suggest going with the P30. After the Glock experiences I went through, I want something that will work right out of the box without a single bit of trouble. HK is the company for that, in my opinion. That's not to say they don't occasionally produce a lemon, but their reliability and reputation speak for themselves on how often that happens. Training will help you overcome the rest.
Did the vertical stove pipes occur with the one you had the ejection port lowered? or just the others?
You are basing your conclusion on your experience and Im basing my conclusion on mine.
Your Glocks give you BTF None of my Glocks give me BTF.
Like I mentioned I don't discredit your experience Why discredit mine?
You are either doing something wrong and/or have bad luck
Im doing something right and/or have good luck
I can accept the fact that you have bad luck and you have several "lemons"
hope the platform change brings you satisfactory results.
Bill
Phillygunguy's experience with more recently produced Glock's is more the norm than yours is.
If you have a Glock produced in the last year, you will most likely see a problem from day one or somewhere between 2k-4k (or not at all). Is very odd.
C4
teutonicpolymer
03-27-14, 16:05
Precisely. And as I have stated, the LENGTH of the grip is what makes a pistol easier or harder to conceal, for those of us who carry in traditional hip-carry (not AIWB, cross draw, shoulder rig, etc). For ME, that extra 3/16", while miniscule on paper, makes all the difference in the world between a pistol that prints under normal covering garments (spring/summer weight, of course) and one that doesn't.
YMMV. If your PPQ or P30 DON'T print for you, and are the cat's pajamas, GREAT! For ME, that little bit makes a difference.
I get this
I love the PPQ trigger but I think it is a little large for what it is in terms of width and grip length
if the PPQ had two more rounds than the G19, then I could see it (grip length) being a reasonable tradeoff but the width would still bother me
just for perspective, Walther lists the PPQ as 1.3" wide while Glock lists the G21 as 1.27" wide
Phillygunguy's experience with more recently produced Glock's is more the norm than yours is.
If you have a Glock produced in the last year, you will most likely see a problem from day one or somewhere between 2k-4k (or not at all). Is very odd.
C4
Interesting.....He has 4 glocks 2 G17s, a G19 and a G26 that exhibit BTFs (That's the norm?)
I buy 1 G19 with a birthdate of March 2014 and after 500rds no BTF.( I'm the statistical anomaly?)
I was implying that with my G19 being produced so recently maybe just maybe problems have been solved.
Bill
Hate to tell you , the 1911 is kinda obsolete too
check out Hilton Yam's article
So what do I need? Stovepipes and brass to the face?:lol:
I'll make my own assessment of what's obsolete.
Phillygunguy's experience with more recently produced Glock's is more the norm than yours is.
If you have a Glock produced in the last year, you will most likely see a problem from day one or somewhere between 2k-4k (or not at all). Is very odd.
C4
Whats odd to me is i have two glocks 17 gen3 19 gen4 and there is over 6000 rounds between them and they have fire every round and ejected every round. But my PPQ that has 2000 rounds through it is going back to walther again for the second time for the same problem.
Let me clear up my post some. My ppq does not have a problem with brass at all it is going back because of the trigger reset or non reset witch is the problem.
Interesting.....He has 4 glocks 2 G17s, a G19 and a G26 that exhibit BTFs (That's the norm?)
I buy 1 G19 with a birthdate of March 2014 and after 500rds no BTF.( I'm the statistical anomaly?)
I was implying that with my G19 being produced so recently maybe just maybe problems have been solved.
Bill
Did you read what I wrote about round count and problems? 500rds is barely broken in. Come back to this thread after 5K. At that point, I think you will know for certain at that point.
C4
Whats odd to me is i have two glocks 17 gen3 19 gen4 and there is over 6000 rounds between them and they have fire every round and ejected every round. But my PPQ that has 2000 rounds through it is going back to walther again for the second time for the same problem.
As I posted, it seems like it is either early on or somewhere between 2-4k (or it doesn't have a problem at all). Just to be clear, not every Glock exhibits brass to the face. My guess is that it is probably around 30%.
C4
Precisely. And as I have stated, the LENGTH of the grip is what makes a pistol easier or harder to conceal, for those of us who carry in traditional hip-carry (not AIWB, cross draw, shoulder rig, etc). For ME, that extra 3/16", while miniscule on paper, makes all the difference in the world between a pistol that prints under normal covering garments (spring/summer weight, of course) and one that doesn't.
YMMV. If your PPQ or P30 DON'T print for you, and are the cat's pajamas, GREAT! For ME, that little bit makes a difference.
With that grip more forward on the gun and given the angle, the PPQ is substantially more comfortable to carry was well as more concealable. The end of the grip doesn't print with the PPQ, nor does it dig into the seat of my little sports car. And I agree, 3/16 inch is miniscule.
Psalms144.1
03-27-14, 17:24
I get this
I love the PPQ trigger but I think it is a little large for what it is in terms of width and grip length
if the PPQ had two more rounds than the G19, then I could see it (grip length) being a reasonable tradeoff but the width would still bother me
just for perspective, Walther lists the PPQ as 1.3" wide while Glock lists the G21 as 1.27" wideI will advise folks to take Glock's "specifications" with a grain (or two) of salt. When they report the width of their pistols, they ONLY measure the slide, which, on every Glock I own, is significantly narrower than the frame - I'm going to go out on a limb with my calibrated eyeball and my G19 and guess about 1/4" wider...
I will advise folks to take Glock's "specifications" with a grain (or two) of salt. When they report the width of their pistols, they ONLY measure the slide, which, on every Glock I own, is significantly narrower than the frame - I'm going to go out on a limb with my calibrated eyeball and my G19 and guess about 1/4" wider...
Sample size of one, but my G17 gen 4 is 30mm at the top of the frame, same as listed on their website. Doesn't include the slide release though.
OP: Have you tried different types of ammo? I had frequent (1 in 50 or 100) BTF or stovepipes with one particular brand/case of ammo, but it stopped after I switched (in two different gen 4's, a 4/11 G17 and a 8/12 G19). Did not exhibit before that case either.
As I posted, it seems like it is either early on or somewhere between 2-4k (or it doesn't have a problem at all). Just to be clear, not every Glock exhibits brass to the face. My guess is that it is probably around 30%.
C4
heat-ar is referring to PPQ BTFs
If 30% of Glocks are exhibiting BTFs, what are the chances of one person owning 4 of them (including 3 different models and 2 different generations) that exhibit BTFs? With that kind of luck I would forget about guns. I would stay inside and wear a helmet.
I always regret posting
I don't make 'em and I dont sell 'em
Bill
Doc Safari
03-27-14, 17:52
If 30% of Glocks are exhibiting BTFs, what are the chances of one person owning 4 of them (including 3 different models and 2 different generations) that exhibit BTFs? With that kind of luck I would forget about guns. I would stay inside and wear a helmet.
Bill
Over the years people on some forums have "excused" the BTF problem, or have simply told people to put up with it.
I've owned enough Glocks over the years to have noticed that it's hit or miss if you get one with a BTF problem or not.
I can believe a person having all his Glocks exhibit the problem, or none, or some.
Rifleman_04
03-27-14, 18:37
My last Glock, an early production gen 4 19, was a constant problem. After new parts from Glock and Apex I still had constant stove pipes and brass to face. Couldn't make it through a magazine without a malf. The slide also liked to fall off the frame for no reason.
Traded it for a PPQ M2.
heat-ar is referring to PPQ BTFs
If 30% of Glocks are exhibiting BTFs, what are the chances of one person owning 4 of them (including 3 different models and 2 different generations) that exhibit BTFs? With that kind of luck I would forget about guns. I would stay inside and wear a helmet.
I always regret posting
I don't make 'em and I dont sell 'em
Bill
Copis i screw up i did not mean the ppq was having btf issue it has trigger problems. The point i was trying to make was i have two glocks both test fire date within the last year with no real problems. And the PPQ which is the new kid on the block does not have many issue if any and mine has issue.
heat-ar,
No worries...... I was trying to make a point about probabilities vs. possibilities that somehow got lost.....
Ultimately, I don't give a rat's ass about anybody else' s theories concerning pistols. :sarcastic:
Bill
DAMMMMM, I have no issues with a few other Gen 3's I have, and I was seriously considering a G19. Now I am not sure??? I know there is no love here, but I have no issues with a few SA XD's I have. This makes me rethink things.
One thing is for sure, if I had that many issues with any make gun, I would get rid of it.
I think any manufacturer can produce problem guns. No manufacturer is immune from issues. If you try to chase "perfection" by switching from company to company you'll end up chasing something that doesn't exist in firearm manufacturing. I try to go by the "gun works, gun good" philosophy. I have Glocks that work great so I held onto them. Others didn't so I moved on from them. Find 2 pistols that work the way you want and run them. With guns there is no one make that you can buy and be guaranteed for it to run flawlessly for thousands upon thousands of rounds. The issues with current production Glocks is real and they are certainly jeopardizing their reputation with the current QC issues that have plagued them in the past few years. The problem with the internet is we inject our experiences into the discussions and getting a true sense of how pervasive the problem is or what the solutions are is hard with all the chatter that goes on.
Phillygunguy
03-27-14, 21:40
Sample size of one, but my G17 gen 4 is 30mm at the top of the frame, same as listed on their website. Doesn't include the slide release though.
OP: Have you tried different types of ammo? I had frequent (1 in 50 or 100) BTF or stovepipes with one particular brand/case of ammo, but it stopped after I switched (in two different gen 4's, a 4/11 G17 and a 8/12 G19). Did not exhibit before that case either.
yes all types of ammo, still btf
DreadPirateMoyer
03-28-14, 00:06
Did the vertical stove pipes occur with the one you had the ejection port lowered? or just the others?
Wouldn't be able to tell you. Never fired it after that. :(
ETA: they did occur prior to the port being lowered; not sure about after.
warpedcamshaft
03-28-14, 00:45
I've had several range sessions with 4 individual examples of the following, and have put at minimum of 1k rounds through each: HK P30, Walther PPQ, Glock 19 Gen 3, and an M&P 9.
Some of these were on the same day with all 4 pistols firing the same ammunition for several hundreds of rounds.
1: The P30 ejects extremely consistently with any ammunition I have tried or loaded, I have yet to see it eject a casing that touched me.
2: The M&P and PPQ may occasionally drop a casing or two on top of your head or may hit your right shoulder.
3: The Glock 19 mentioned, before I sent it to Glock, would frequently forcefully eject casings directly into the shooter's face. It has gone around 3-4k rounds without issues since the trip to Glock.
In my personal experience, Glocks from the "good era" eject about like the M&P and PPQ I mentioned... a couple of casings may bounce of your hat brim or shoulder.
I have also had a Gen 3 Glock 17 go from ejecting acceptably, to forceful ejection directly into my face at about the 3k mark. (This started at Paul Howe's CSAT Pistol Course and was a big disappointment.) This gun also went back to Glock and has worked well since, but has not seen a very high round count compared to the G19.
Mauser KAR98K
03-28-14, 04:52
I'll add one more to the P30. Have a P30s, though haven't fired over 1K rounds, nor have I carried it as my EDC weapon (USP 45 at the moment). Great performer, best damn grip I've handled on a pistol, and the .40s&w I have has a nice recoil to it unlike the gen3 Glock 22 I had. Just wish the trigger was better, particularly the reset (way to long). Other than that, the slide is about the size of a Glock 19, but the grip is a bit longer, but fits like a glove.
yes all types of ammo, still btf
In that case, ditch the Glocks. If they don't work for you, why keep them? Kinda sucks, but it is what it is.
Your comments on the PPQ not having the market support of the P30 will soon end with H&Ks new striker gun, the SFP9. It looks like an H&K PPQ, so you'll have the best of both worlds.
24774
heat-ar,
No worries...... I was trying to make a point about probabilities vs. possibilities that somehow got lost.....
Ultimately, I don't give a rat's ass about anybody else' s theories concerning pistols. :sarcastic:
Bill
You should as there are people on this forum with far greater experience than your own.
C4
You should as there are people on this forum with far greater experience than your own.
C4
You are correct I am nobody. However I've seen you on TV (1911 episode) and frankly I'll take my chances based on my own experiences. When I or the people around me start experiencing BTfs, I will make the necessary adjustments
I apologize for highjacking thread. It wont happen again.
take care
Bill
You are correct I am nobody. However I've seen you on TV (1911 episode) and frankly I'll take my chances based on my own experiences.
take care
Bill
Being on TV is meaningless. My knowledge on Glock's (fixing and shooting them) is extensive. On top of this, I routinely poll the best instructors on the planet and ask them how Glock's are performing in classes. I then bounce this data against my own findings to make a informed opinion.
The fact that your Glock's aren't hitting you in the face with brass is normal. The fact that your Glock's are running is normal. Just realize (as evident in this thread about 500 other Glock threads around the net) that Glock is having some issues with their guns and it has been on going for some time.
As I advised you, come back to this thread when you get about 4,000rds on your gun. Then, you will know if your guns are good.
C4
Phillygunguy
03-28-14, 10:38
In that case, ditch the Glocks. If they don't work for you, why keep them? Kinda sucks, but it is what it is.
Your comments on the PPQ not having the market support of the P30 will soon end with H&Ks new striker gun, the SFP9. It looks like an H&K PPQ, so you'll have the best of both worlds.
24774
When pray tell is this HK striker fired pistol coming out!?
Nice. I wonder what it will cost, and I wonder why I would want to buy it instead of a PPQ.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/sfp9-2.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/sfp9.jpg
Phillygunguy
03-28-14, 11:41
Nice. I wonder what it will cost, and I wonder why I would want to buy it instead of a PPQ.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/sfp9-2.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/sfp9.jpg
Is that real or Photoshop?
Mauser KAR98K
03-28-14, 11:51
Is that real or Photoshop?
It be real. Already miss the large slide release. Hope this isn't a big let down.
Course, this my not be the full finish product.
My understanding with the new HK, is that it is supposed to be less expensive than the P-30. How much less I don't know. If the above pics are real, it looks like they've changed a few things.. Shorter slide release (which could be a good thing) Possible different method of field stripping. I'm assuming that P-30 mags will interchange... Now if the trigger is at least as good as a PPQ, I might have a P-30 for sale....
Is that real or Photoshop?
Not Photoshopped by me, but it did come off the internet.
There's a long discussion at HKPro and a confirmation by those that saw it in person that is real.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/196109-p30-striker-sfp-28.html#post1483212
teutonicpolymer
03-28-14, 15:20
If it had those changes and came in a L version I would like one
remington79
03-29-14, 03:15
this might belong in this thread if not please PM me and delete my post. My Gen 4 G19 has some erratic ejection to. Mine has a date of 1/15/14 It hasn't thrown any brass to my head but has had some brass land on my wrists/front part of my forearms. I've had one land on my hat brim but that may have been caused by hitting the divider. Most of my brass does seem to be around my 430 area but once again that may be due to the partition.
Grant was saying that some Glocks get worse over 1,000 rounds. Mine only has 250 rounds in it but has been doing this since days one. Based on everyone's past experience do you think it will get worse or should I expect it to stay steady. I know you can't predict the future but I would like some observations that y'all might have seen. Sorry if this derailed the thread.
I should mention that despite landing on my forearms/wrists 3 or 4 times per mag it hasn't shot any BTF at this point. I know 250 rounds isn't a lot. I fired 200 in one shot and 50 at a GSSF match. In the next week I'm going to shoot another 200-250 through it.
I read most of that thread on the HK forum....It's amazing how many people over there turn their noses up at it because it's striker fired.. A of people lot feel the pics are photoshopped, and thus a fake, That went on for a few pages until Montrala showed up and confirmed that they were real, and then the bitching started about how HK must have cut corners somewhere to meet the supposedly suggested MSRP of between $6-700..Talk about an unhappy bunch....
ETA: It appears that the thread discussing the striker-fired P-30 over at HK pro, has been taken down...
Crow Hunter
03-29-14, 07:35
this might belong in this thread if not please PM me and delete my post. My Gen 4 G19 has some erratic ejection to. Mine has a date of 1/15/14 It hasn't thrown any brass to my head but has had some brass land on my wrists/front part of my forearms. I've had one land on my hat brim but that may have been caused by hitting the divider. Most of my brass does seem to be around my 430 area but once again that may be due to the partition.
Grant was saying that some Glocks get worse over 1,000 rounds. Mine only has 250 rounds in it but has been doing this since days one. Based on everyone's past experience do you think it will get worse or should I expect it to stay steady. I know you can't predict the future but I would like some observations that y'all might have seen. Sorry if this derailed the thread.
I should mention that despite landing on my forearms/wrists 3 or 4 times per mag it hasn't shot any BTF at this point. I know 250 rounds isn't a lot. I fired 200 in one shot and 50 at a GSSF match. In the next week I'm going to shoot another 200-250 through it.
Not something I would personally worry about at this time. I have experienced BTF with one Glock 19 that I owned back before all this "started". BTF (to me) is the gun shooting brass back at your forehead with a significant amount of force, usually with almost every round fired.
Glocks, by design, will have random ejection patterns. This pattern will change based on the strength of the magazine spring, the strength of the recoil spring, the velocity of the slide and the actual physical characteristics of the ejector and extractor. I have multiple Gen 3 Glocks that have anywhere from 1,500 rds through roughly 12,000 rds and all of them will eject rounds randomly. Especially with the lower cost/lower slide velocity Remington UMC or Blazer brass. They become much more consistent with Speer Lawman or Speer Gold Dot +P.
If your gun ever gets to where it slings brass straight back at your forehead/eyes and hits with enough force to leave a mark, then look at changing ejectors/extractors. Until then, I would just ignore it as it is part of the design, for better or worse.:confused:
One thing that may help on a new gun is leaving your magazines fully loaded for a little while to get the springs to "take a set" to where it is relatively easy to put in the last round vs having to stuff it in. Glock uses the magazine spring as part of the ejection cycle. A very strong upward pressure from the cartridge stack on the bottom of the extracting round can cause the case to slip a little in the extractor's grip and cause it to hit the ejector slightly differently and change the ejection pattern. This is especially prevalent on Winchester brass an others that have thin rims with less material for the extractor to get a good grip on.
Hope this helps.
I read most of that thread on the HK forum....It's amazing how many people over there turn their noses up at it because it's striker fired.. A of people lot feel the pics are photoshopped, and thus a fake, That went on for a few pages until Montrala showed up and confirmed that they were real, and then the bitching started about how HK must have cut corners somewhere to meet the supposedly suggested MSRP of between $6-700..Talk about an unhappy bunch....
ETA: It appears that the thread discussing the striker-fired P-30 over at HK pro, has been taken down...
It's tough to deal with, this new pistol is the only reason I still visit that site.
Thread still works for me
I read most of that thread on the HK forum....It's amazing how many people over there turn their noses up at it because it's striker fired.. A of people lot feel the pics are photoshopped, and thus a fake, That went on for a few pages until Montrala showed up and confirmed that they were real, and then the bitching started about how HK must have cut corners somewhere to meet the supposedly suggested MSRP of between $6-700..Talk about an unhappy bunch....
ETA: It appears that the thread discussing the striker-fired P-30 over at HK pro, has been taken down...
They spent all of those years claiming that hammer fired pistols were somehow superior to strikers, and now that the church is adopting a striker line, they don't know what to do.
For fanboys, they aren't just tools to them.
Not something I would personally worry about at this time. I have experienced BTF with one Glock 19 that I owned back before all this "started". BTF (to me) is the gun shooting brass back at your forehead with a significant amount of force, usually with almost every round fired.
Glocks, by design, will have random ejection patterns. This pattern will change based on the strength of the magazine spring, the strength of the recoil spring, the velocity of the slide and the actual physical characteristics of the ejector and extractor. I have multiple Gen 3 Glocks that have anywhere from 1,500 rds through roughly 12,000 rds and all of them will eject rounds randomly. Especially with the lower cost/lower slide velocity Remington UMC or Blazer brass. They become much more consistent with Speer Lawman or Speer Gold Dot +P. My own personal hunch is that ammo (especially now since ammo is generally of lesser quality) plays a huge role in this issue.
My own personal hunch is that ammo (especially now since ammo is generally of lesser quality) plays a huge role in this issue.
Nah. BTF is pretty clearly manufacturing quality decline on the part of Glock. I have no ejection issues with any other handgun that I shoot using all the same ammo.
teutonicpolymer
03-29-14, 12:11
I read most of that thread on the HK forum....It's amazing how many people over there turn their noses up at it because it's striker fired.. A of people lot feel the pics are photoshopped, and thus a fake, That went on for a few pages until Montrala showed up and confirmed that they were real, and then the bitching started about how HK must have cut corners somewhere to meet the supposedly suggested MSRP of between $6-700..Talk about an unhappy bunch....
ETA: It appears that the thread discussing the striker-fired P-30 over at HK pro, has been taken down...
HK pro can be kind of elitist sometimes... people make that claim about m4c but on HKpro it becomes irrational
I believe I once tried to defend Glocks when they were being ragged on there and someone responded by claiming he had no experience with them because only children buy toys or something along those lines
personally I am becoming more excited for the sfp9 than I thought I would be. HK sounds like they're doing it right with the slim slide, lower bore axis, and better trigger
teutonicpolymer
03-29-14, 12:16
Also, I don't mean to put this the wrong way but I think BTF is partly caused by how you manage recoil
off the bench I get BTF
standing I almost never do
my arms are planted firmly on the bench so movement mostly happens in my hands/wrists. this is a snappier movement than offhand for me.
just my observations, hopefully no one takes them as a personal attack on their abilities
Psalms144.1
03-29-14, 12:32
Teutonic - grip and recoil control might have something to do with it, but, in my problematic Glocks, they all ran like poop, despite being fired by a number of very experienced Glock shooters and armorers.
Phillygunguy
03-29-14, 12:36
this might belong in this thread if not please PM me and delete my post. My Gen 4 G19 has some erratic ejection to. Mine has a date of 1/15/14 It hasn't thrown any brass to my head but has had some brass land on my wrists/front part of my forearms. I've had one land on my hat brim but that may have been caused by hitting the divider. Most of my brass does seem to be around my 430 area but once again that may be due to the partition.
Grant was saying that some Glocks get worse over 1,000 rounds. Mine only has 250 rounds in it but has been doing this since days one. Based on everyone's past experience do you think it will get worse or should I expect it to stay steady. I know you can't predict the future but I would like some observations that y'all might have seen. Sorry if this derailed the thread.
I should mention that despite landing on my forearms/wrists 3 or 4 times per mag it hasn't shot any BTF at this point. I know 250 rounds isn't a lot. I fired 200 in one shot and 50 at a GSSF match. In the next week I'm going to shoot another 200-250 through it.
Its really impossible to say, but if you're getting btf already it may get worse, lucky My G17 gen 3 has about 5000 rds and hasn't been any worse, ie stove pipes,( knock on wood) that being said, if that were to happen, I'd ditch them all
Phillygunguy
03-29-14, 12:41
I read most of that thread on the HK forum....It's amazing how many people over there turn their noses up at it because it's striker fired.. A of people lot feel the pics are photoshopped, and thus a fake, That went on for a few pages until Montrala showed up and confirmed that they were real, and then the bitching started about how HK must have cut corners somewhere to meet the supposedly suggested MSRP of between $6-700..Talk about an unhappy bunch....
ETA: It appears that the thread discussing the striker-fired P-30 over at HK pro, has been taken down...
Wow what a bunch of babies
remington79
03-29-14, 13:24
Thanks Crow Hunter that does help a bit. I did notice the ejection is better in my wife's 2009 G19. This is using Blazer Brass in each gun so I can keep it apples to apples. So far nothing has come towards the face. As far as the one hitting the hat brim it may have come off of the divider at the indoor range. I need to wait for the Forest Service roads to melt before I can get out to the woods to shoot.
I just wanted to make sure since I've been spoiled by my HK USPC. The only brass that has ever come back and hit me in the face was with that gun using CCI Aluminium casings. It has never happened when I use brass no matter what brand. As for HKPro I haven't been on there in years so I don't know about the fanboy thing there but Glock Talk is full of them. Over there ANY problems with a Glock is because of limp wristing. Here we all know that is far from the truth.
HK pro can be kind of elitist sometimes... people make that claim about m4c but on HKpro it becomes irrational
I believe I once tried to defend Glocks when they were being ragged on there and someone responded by claiming he had no experience with them because only children buy toys or something along those lines
personally I am becoming more excited for the sfp9 than I thought I would be. HK sounds like they're doing it right with the slim slide, lower bore axis, and better trigger
I've had a few run-in's over there as well, I just don't go there anymore unless I need some info, It's a great resource for that, other than that, forget it. Looking at the pics of the sfp9, I'm liking what I'm seeing. And yes, it sounds like HK's doing it right.. Maybe it's starting to sink in that they (HK) needs something other than military/law enforcement contracts to survive, and that they'd better start offering products people want instead of what they think they need. Let's keep our fingers crossed that HK doesn't ass this up with something stupid like a 12lb trigger..
I switched to a PPQ M2 five months ago as my EDC after carrying a G19 for over 10 years. I just shoot the PPQ with its outstanding trigger better. And the BTF issue that affected my spare G19 really pissed me off.
I have been spending a lot of time at the Walther forum and there are a couple PPQ owners reporting trigger problems with their PPQs at around 2000 rounds. Walther is fixing the problem but as I'm almost there in round count I'm watching this carefully.
Hopefully it's a rare problem. I also agree the the striker fired version of the P30 will be a huge seller. If HK gets it right. The only real issue I have with Walther is the lack of aftermarket low profile night sights. I put Mep PPS sight on my PPQ after trying some other options and am happy with the result.
I've been trying to get a Navy version for a bedside suppressed gun but have been looking for a year and can't get my hand on one. Walther is importing very few if them I guess.
If the striker P30 comes out and is all that I may go in that direction if I haven't found a Navy version by then mainly because getting a threaded bbl will be easier with HKs higher production capability.
Phillygunguy
03-29-14, 14:16
I switched to a PPQ M2 five months ago as my EDC after carrying a G19 for over 10 years. I just shoot the PPQ with its outstanding trigger better. And the BTF issue that affected my spare G19 really pissed me off.
I have been spending a lot of time at the Walther forum and there are a couple PPQ owners reporting trigger problems with their PPQs at around 2000 rounds. Walther is fixing the problem but as I'm almost there in round count I'm watching this carefully.
Hopefully it's a rare problem. I also agree the the striker fired version of the P30 will be a huge seller. If HK gets it right. The only real issue I have with Walther is the lack of aftermarket low profile night sights. I put Mep PPS sight on my PPQ after trying some other options and am happy with the result.
I've been trying to get a Navy version for a bedside suppressed gun but have been looking for a year and can't get my hand on one. Walther is importing very few if them I guess.
If the striker P30 comes out and is all that I may go in that direction if I haven't found a Navy version by then mainly because getting a threaded bbl will be easier with HKs higher production capability.
I thought about getting a Navy too but Damn! thats pretty scary that people are having trigger issues after 2000 rds I haven't put that many through yet I may go with the Striker fired P 30 when it comes out, Hopefully the trigger wont suck
I switched to a PPQ M2 five months ago as my EDC after carrying a G19 for over 10 years. I just shoot the PPQ with its outstanding trigger better. And the BTF issue that affected my spare G19 really pissed me off.
I have been spending a lot of time at the Walther forum and there are a couple PPQ owners reporting trigger problems with their PPQs at around 2000 rounds. Walther is fixing the problem but as I'm almost there in round count I'm watching this carefully.
Hopefully it's a rare problem. I also agree the the striker fired version of the P30 will be a huge seller. If HK gets it right. The only real issue I have with Walther is the lack of aftermarket low profile night sights. I put Mep PPS sight on my PPQ after trying some other options and am happy with the result.
I've been trying to get a Navy version for a bedside suppressed gun but have been looking for a year and can't get my hand on one. Walther is importing very few if them I guess.
If the striker P30 comes out and is all that I may go in that direction if I haven't found a Navy version by then mainly because getting a threaded bbl will be easier with HKs higher production capability.
I am that guy that started the most recent thread on walther forms about my ppq trigger not resetting when i try to work right off the reset. Walther has not fix my gun as today. They have try once and fail to repair it and now it will be there on monday for them to try again.Its only fair to give walther some time but when its all done i will post how everything went. It is a very good gun i think but i am not the first one to have this issue.
I thought about getting a Navy too but Damn! thats pretty scary that people are having trigger issues after 2000 rds I haven't put that many through yet I may go with the Striker fired P 30 when it comes out, Hopefully the trigger wont suck
I wouldn't worry about it too much, The PPQ has been out long enough that if it were a serious issue, It'd be all over the 'net like Glock's BTF problems..
I wouldn't worry about it too much, The PPQ has been out long enough that if it were a serious issue, It'd be all over the 'net like Glock's BTF problems..
Maybe, maybe not. You almost never see them in training classes. Majority of dudes in training classes have Glocks, I'd say 60-70ish percent. Rest are M&Ps, with one or two dudes using something else (PPQ, P30, P226, etc).
Are these PPQ trigger issues only with the M2?
decodeddiesel
03-29-14, 22:15
Kind of funny that I'm actually thinking of doing the exact opposite and moving back to 9mm Glocks. I'll admit the trigger on the PPQ is very very nice, but I never really found the ergos on the polymer Walthers to work out with regard to the huge slide catch and my thumb placement. Not an issue with my M&Ps, or the Glocks I have fired, but it was a pain with the P99 QA I had years ago and the P30 I had more recently.
Phillygunguy
03-30-14, 00:55
Kind of funny that I'm actually thinking of doing the exact opposite and moving back to 9mm Glocks. I'll admit the trigger on the PPQ is very very nice, but I never really found the ergos on the polymer Walthers to work out with regard to the huge slide catch and my thumb placement. Not an issue with my M&Ps, or the Glocks I have fired, but it was a pain with the P99 QA I had years ago and the P30 I had more recently.
I think the slide locks on the p30 are huge compared too the PPQ.
I would stay with glocks, if I didn't have btf issues
Phillygunguy
03-30-14, 01:04
Maybe, maybe not. You almost never see them in training classes. Majority of dudes in training classes have Glocks, I'd say 60-70ish percent. Rest are M&Ps, with one or two dudes using something else (PPQ, P30, P226, etc).
I think that has to do with popularity of glocks and m&ps and m&ps have had their share of problems. Like I said the PPQ doesn't have as much after market support nor did they market
themselves well HK OTOH, is too expensive for some people
Phillygunguy
03-30-14, 01:11
Trajan I just re read your post I see what your saying The fact there aren't as many PPQ shooters means there aren't enough of them out there to get the same kind of hard use as glocks or M&Ps to know of there are reliability issues
decodeddiesel
03-30-14, 02:04
I would stay with glocks, if I didn't have btf issues
Moved to PM
Maybe, maybe not. You almost never see them in training classes. Majority of dudes in training classes have Glocks, I'd say 60-70ish percent. Rest are M&Ps, with one or two dudes using something else (PPQ, P30, P226, etc).
Yeah, But looking at the thread from the Walther forums you have 3 maybe 4 guys with problems..I'm sure by now there are 1000's out there being used, Hell, mine has over 2500rnds on it and the trigger's fine. I think there's someone on this board who has over 5k on his. Just because you don't see them in classes doesn't mean they're not being used. As I said, if it were a widespread problem like Glock's BTF, you would've heard much more about it by now..
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