View Full Version : Bob Lee Swagger (Hunter Novels), Kennedy Assassination, and more!
Lets talk Bob Lee Swagger novels by Stephen Hunter.
If you don't know the Bob Lee series, than you have missed out on probably the best book series of all time for those who like gun centric fiction novels.
Bob Lee is a character clearly inspired by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock (with old school gunmen like Bill Jordan, etc in the mix) , so he's a good old boy who was the top 'Nam era sniper who says little and shoots straight and true under pressure. If you have read the series, you know there's just nothing as good as a Bob Lee adventure. He also spun the character off to Lee's father (Earl, based on an MOH winning WWII vet who becomes a cop) and those too are fantastic books. I may even enjoy (truth be known) even a little more than Bob Lee novels.
The first in the series was Point of Impact, which was made into a worthless movie with no real connection to that book. A damn shame, because had it been well directed and cast, would have made a hell of a movie. If you have not read the series, start at Point of Impact.
The series is now lengthy with both Bob Lee novels and his fathers novels.
As with any lengthy series, at some point, the author (Hunter) starts to run out of ideas. All the books in the series are classics to me, but the last two before this latest, were not up to usual snuff for Hunter. I had really thought it was the end for the series when Hunter went into NASCAR and Samurai themed books, and one book even had some obvious brand placement with Lee choosing Kimber and mass market AR brand rifle, but I digress. To his credit, he pokes some fun at himself for those two novels in this latest novel.
But, I am here to tell you, Bob Lee/Hunter is back! His latest novel The Third Bullet (http://www.amazon.com/The-Third-Bullet-Bob-Swagger/dp/1451640226) is Hunters truly in-depth look at the Kennedy Assassination. It's essentially his theory on the event wrapped into a Bob Lee novel, and it's very well done. It's a very different Bob Lee adventure, more cerebral and fact driven than shooter novel because (1) there's a lot of details to cover and (2) Lee is late 60s now and Hunter does not pretend he can run around running and gunning as he once did. Much of the book is also written from the antagonists POV, and it's really well done. As one reviewer said:
"The Swagger novel we've all been waiting for, and the Swagger novel Stephen Hunter was born to write . . . a magnificent thriller—and it might even be true.” (Lee Child #1 New York Times bestselling author of A Wanted Man and The Affair)"
Hunter has done a sh&% load of research for this book, and his theory as to that event is quite possibly exactly what happened. OK, not exactly, but as he lays out the fact patterns, you are left convinced something very similar took place. I have yet to read a theory on the event (and obviously i have not read them all!) that puts the pieces together as he does here.
So, if you are a fan of Bob Lee novels, but found the last few wanting as I did, you will enjoy this book and possibly come away with a whole new perspective of the Kennedy event. It's not a typical Lee adventure be warned, but a damn good read and unlike others who have written on this topic, he spends a great deal of time focused on the fire arm used in the event and various places the WC, FBI, experts of the day, etc, totally missed the boat. There's an entire section after the novel called "The shim's tale" which all but ends LHO as the shooter who made the fatal head shot to Kennedy.
I just finished this book. Probably the best Swagger/Hunter book so far. Very good read
I just finished this book. Probably the best Swagger/Hunter book so far. Very good read
Have you read the entire series to date? I'd also highly recommend the novels on his father Earl, with Pale Horse Coming perhaps the best of them all to me.
I'm not a book reader, but I've seen the Point of Impact movie (aka "Shooter"). I didn't know there was a whole series about this Bob Lee Swagger character. Or course I don't read many books, either. Interesting.
I'm not a book reader, but I've seen the Point of Impact movie (aka "Shooter"). I didn't know there was a whole series about this Bob Lee Swagger character. Interesting.
Indeed. The movie was a POS and had essentially zero connection the book other than in name, and they changed that too! Why they even bothered to say it as based on Point Of Impact (other than to perhaps get Lee/Hunter fans to go see it) I have no idea.
Have you read the entire series to date? I'd also highly recommend the novels on his father Earl, with Pale Horse Coming perhaps the best of them all to me.
I have read all of them. I like historical fiction. I learned a bit about the Kennedy assassination from The Third Bullet.
I have read all of them. I like historical fiction. I learned a bit about the Kennedy assassination from The Third Bullet.
His distillation of the facts, time lines, players, etc really brings clarity to that event I have never gotten from anything else I have read.
Indeed. The movie was a POS and had essentially zero connection the book other than in name, and they changed that too! Why they even bothered to say it as based on Point Of Impact (other than to perhaps get Lee/Hunter fans to go see it) I have no idea.
I actually thought it was a good movie. Could have been better but still decent. POI was the only book I had read up to that time. It would have been really hard to do a faithful version of the book and reach a major audience. Their attempt to update the timeline was clumsy at times, but I think you are being too hard on the movie.
It was better than 80% of the movies coming out of Hollywood with similar themes (former special forces vet must make it on his own against corrupt government, rescue his kidnapped family, etc.) and it was one of those rare "pro gun" films to exist at all. In fact I'd like to hear anyone nominate another film that is more freedom and rights oriented than "Shooter" that has come out since 2000.
That said, I do wish they had stayed with the book version of Nick Memphis, it would have dramatically improved the film without causing any storyline problems.
I especially liked the characterization of Oswald as a sniveling, wife beating, cop killing POS. Hunters assertion that Oswald was too much of a bumbling idiot to successfully assassinate Kennedy is, quite possibly, an accurate portrayal. The concept that the killing was a result of luck, coincidence is interesting. I thought that the info about the cheapness of the Carcano's mount/optic was informative. If the FBI investigators couldnt estsblish a zero with Oswald's rifle without fixing the mount, I am left wondering how he made the shots.
I know that the technical aspects of the shooting are possible with a scoped 6.5 Carcano. I didnt know Oswald's was missing 2 screws and was so goofed up.
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-14, 17:45
It was better than 80% of the movies coming out of Hollywood with similar themes (former special forces vet must make it on his own against corrupt government, rescue his kidnapped family, etc.) and it was one of those rare "pro gun" films to exist at all. In fact I'd like to hear anyone nominate another film that is more freedom and rights oriented than "Shooter" that has come out since 2000.
Lets see, from the hip I'd have to say the re-make of Red Dawn.
Lets see, from the hip I'd have to say the re-make of Red Dawn.
Kind of a stretch, they were being invaded. Shooter was about a regular guy taking on the government, not NORKs.
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-14, 18:07
Kind of a stretch, they were being invaded. Shooter was about a regular guy taking on the government, not NORKs.
Ah, I see what you are getting at. Hmm, I see what I can come up with.
I actually thought it was a good movie. Could have been better but still decent. POI was the only book I had read up to that time. It would have been really hard to do a faithful version of the book and reach a major audience. Their attempt to update the timeline was clumsy at times, but I think you are being too hard on the movie.
It was better than 80% of the movies coming out of Hollywood with similar themes (former special forces vet must make it on his own against corrupt government, rescue his kidnapped family, etc.) and it was one of those rare "pro gun" films to exist at all. In fact I'd like to hear anyone nominate another film that is more freedom and rights oriented than "Shooter" that has come out since 2000.
That said, I do wish they had stayed with the book version of Nick Memphis, it would have dramatically improved the film without causing any storyline problems.
I don't even mind Mark Wahlberg as an actor and think he's actually better than most give him credit for, but casting him as Bob Lee Swagger was not updating the timeline, but a travesty. It was all pretty much downhill from there. I didn't mean the movie itself was POS, I meant compared to the book and compared to what it could have/should have been, it was a POS. :)
As a stand alone movie, it was harmless enough and average enough.
I especially liked the characterization of Oswald as a sniveling, wife beating, cop killing POS. Hunters assertion that Oswald was too much of a bumbling idiot to successfully assassinate Kennedy is, quite possibly, an accurate portrayal. The concept that the killing was a result of luck, coincidence is interesting. I thought that the info about the cheapness of the Carcano's mount/optic was informative. If the FBI investigators couldnt estsblish a zero with Oswald's rifle without fixing the mount, I am left wondering how he made the shots.
I know that the technical aspects of the shooting are possible with a scoped 6.5 Carcano. I didnt know Oswald's was missing 2 screws and was so goofed up.
It almost seems as if that's the only real possibility. They had so little time to actually set that up. That part was for me the final straw that what ever happened, LOH couldn't have acted alone, or the probability so low as to be damn near impossible. It would be coincidence almost outside the realm of possible. I'm not given to tin foil stuff of that nature, but either God himself had it in for Kennedy and set up that coincidence of his location to work to Kennedy's route with days of notice, or it was as Hunter concludes or very similar.
I don't even mind Mark Wahlberg as an actor and think he's actually better than most give him credit for, but casting him as Bob Lee Swagger was not updating the timeline, but a travesty. It was all pretty much downhill from there. I didn't mean the movie itself was POS, I meant compared to the book and compared to what it could have/should have been, it was a POS. :)
As a stand alone movie, it was harmless enough and average enough.
Wahlberg would not have been my first pick. I think Tommy Lee Jones would have done a good job.
I have read all of the Bob Lee and some of the Earl novels. Like Will, I just about gave up on Bob Lee in the Samurai and NASCAR books. They were horrible. But I am glad I held on as better books followed. The best of Hunter's books, IMO, are:
Point Of Impact 1993 - Bob Lee Swagger #1
Time To Hunt 1998 - Bob Lee Swagger #3
I, Sniper 2009 - Bob Lee Swagger #6
Dead Zero 2010 - Bob Lee Swagger #7
The Third Bullet 2013 - Bob Lee Swagger #8
I also liked Soft Target 2011 - Ray Cruz #1
I am looking forward to Sniper's Honor 2014 - Bob Lee Swagger #9, to be released on May 20.
Plumber237
03-26-14, 21:10
Another one who loves the Stephen Hunter books, I've read all of them in the series with Hot Springs (Earl #1) being my favorite. The Third Bullet was excellent, it actual got me interested in reading into the JFK assassination more...as mentioned, the fact that they could not zero the scope was very interesting. I was also unaware of Oswald visiting a Russian embassy and previously trying to half-assed assassinate a US Army general. Good mix of history, guns, and fiction.
Magic_Salad0892
03-27-14, 00:10
Kind of a stretch, they were being invaded. Shooter was about a regular guy taking on the government, not NORKs.
V For Vendetta.
V For Vendetta.
Definitely about individual freedoms in a 1984 sense. Not quite a "pro gun" film.
Magic_Salad0892
03-27-14, 02:26
Definitely about individual freedoms in a 1984 sense. Not quite a "pro gun" film.
You didn't say that. :p
In fact I'd like to hear anyone nominate another film that is more freedom and rights oriented than "Shooter" that has come out since 2000.
But the whole "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." thing could be construed as pro civilian armament of some sort.
I have read all of the Bob Lee and some of the Earl novels. Like Will, I just about gave up on Bob Lee in the Samurai and NASCAR books. They were horrible. But I am glad I held on as better books followed. The best of Hunter's books, IMO, are:
Point Of Impact 1993 - Bob Lee Swagger #1
Time To Hunt 1998 - Bob Lee Swagger #3
I, Sniper 2009 - Bob Lee Swagger #6
Dead Zero 2010 - Bob Lee Swagger #7
The Third Bullet 2013 - Bob Lee Swagger #8
I also liked Soft Target 2011 - Ray Cruz #1
I am looking forward to Sniper's Honor 2014 - Bob Lee Swagger #9, to be released on May 20.
Read more Earl Swagger! They may be even better. Pale Horse Coming is my favorite by far of the Earl Swagger series. BTW, I have read all his other non Swagger(s) books, and they are all worth a read.
Quite a number of the Hunter novels are available in audio / downloadable to MP3 format free from public libraries. So, if you're not a book reader this is another way to enjoy the Hunter novels.
Buck Schirner does a very credible voice for Bob Lee Swagger.
No mention of Earl Swagger? They may be even better.
Nope, The Earl novels don't do it for me. I only listed the ones I liked, not all that I had read.
Point of Impact is one of my desert island books... love it. I read one that was horrible. I was flying to Japan on business and thought "a swagger book set in Japan, what could be better". To make a long story short, the novel focused on a sword with bad mojo. Swaggers friend was killed over it. Swagger then learned how to fight with katanas by watching movies. Went to Japan, hooked up with a Japanese military outfit who took on the Yakuza with swords. The climax is a sword fight between swagger and the head bad guy. I kept saying "shoot him" to myself.
The only cool thing is that I went to the shrine of the 47 ronin and lit incense in front of all their graves. That was cool.
Point of Impact is one of my desert island books... love it. I read one that was horrible. I was flying to Japan on business and thought "a swagger book set in Japan, what could be better". To make a long story short, the novel focused on a sword with bad mojo. Swaggers friend was killed over it. Swagger then learned how to fight with katanas by watching movies. Went to Japan, hooked up with a Japanese military outfit who took on the Yakuza with swords. The climax is a sword fight between swagger and the head bad guy. I kept saying "shoot him" to myself.
The only cool thing is that I went to the shrine of the 47 ronin and lit incense in front of all their graves. That was cool.
The only two Swagger books you can safely pass by are 47th Samurai and Night Of Thunder. Everything else is GTG, and he knows he fu&3ed up with those if you read The Third Bullet. I'd recommend reading them in order as they do connect to each other in the story line, etc.
Point of Impact is one of my desert island books... love it. I read one that was horrible. I was flying to Japan on business and thought "a swagger book set in Japan, what could be better". To make a long story short, the novel focused on a sword with bad mojo. Swaggers friend was killed over it. Swagger then learned how to fight with katanas by watching movies. Went to Japan, hooked up with a Japanese military outfit who took on the Yakuza with swords. The climax is a sword fight between swagger and the head bad guy. I kept saying "shoot him" to myself.
The only cool thing is that I went to the shrine of the 47 ronin and lit incense in front of all their graves. That was cool.
I'm assuming the bad mojo sword was a Muramasa? The Graves of the 47 are something I'd love to see.
walkin' trails
04-08-14, 20:57
I have to admit I was entertained by all the Bob Lee booksz and am half way thru the Third Bullet. Yeah, I suppose there is some cheesy stuff here and there, but Stephen Hunter is a very good story teller. The only Earl book I have yet to read is Hot Springs. One thing I noted reading Havana was that it had the same flavor as Elmore Leonard's Cuba Libre, though they take place at different periods in history.
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Besides a library, anywhere else one might find the audio books? I usually work out at home, might be worth listening to while working out.
I have to admit I was entertained by all the Bob Lee booksz and am half way thru the Third Bullet. Yeah, I suppose there is some cheesy stuff here and there, but Stephen Hunter is a very good story teller. The only Earl book I have yet to read is Hot Springs. One thing I noted reading Havana was that it had the same flavor as Elmore Leonard's Cuba Libre, though they take place at different periods in history.
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Hot Springs is a great Earl book BTW.
Plumber237
04-09-14, 09:43
Hot Springs is a great Earl book BTW.
My favorite of all the Hunter books, one of my top 10 books (desert island books)
If the FBI investigators couldnt estsblish a zero with Oswald's rifle without fixing the mount, I am left wondering how he made the shots.
I know that the technical aspects of the shooting are possible with a scoped 6.5 Carcano. I didnt know Oswald's was missing 2 screws and was so goofed up.
What kind of zero did the FBI try to establish?
A slow moving target inside 100 yards for a Marine trained shooter is not outside the realm of probability......especially with a couple 'misses'...
What kind of zero did the FBI try to establish?
A slow moving target inside 100 yards for a Marine trained shooter is not outside the realm of probability......especially with a couple 'misses'...
According to the author, the FBI couldnt shoot a group with Oswald's rifle. They had to fix the mount and use shims to get it to stay put. It is unknown if the rifle was damaged after Oswald used it, or if it was always goofed up
Plumber237
04-09-14, 12:27
One of the non-conspiracy theories (don't rememeber if it was talked about in this book) was that Oswald shot the 1st round (miss) using the optic, saw he missed by a lot, and transitioned to iron sights for the 2 follow up shots.
So I started chewing through these books after reading the recommendations here.
Yes, samurai one was stupid so I skipped the Nascar novel. "Dirty White Boys" by Hunter (a parallel story, not technically in the Swagger series) had an opening paragraph that immediately told you tone of the story.
Anyway, just started book 7. When I cracked this one I found it was dedicated to one of my friends who passed back in 04'. That was entirely unexpected though in hindsight not surprising. Hope this one is good.
That was So, I hope the story is a good one.
One of the non-conspiracy theories (don't rememeber if it was talked about in this book) was that Oswald shot the 1st round (miss) using the optic, saw he missed by a lot, and transitioned to iron sights for the 2 follow up shots.
The author goes into considerable details as to why that's very unlikely. It's really stunning how few real experts on shooting were actually part of the investigations and even the FBI's "expert" at the time didn't appear to know much about the gun, etc.
So I started chewing through these books after reading the recommendations here.
Yes, samurai one was stupid so I skipped the Nascar novel. "Dirty White Boys" by Hunter (a parallel story, not technically in the Swagger series) had an opening paragraph that immediately told you tone of the story.
Anyway, just started book 7. When I cracked this one I found it was dedicated to one of my friends who passed back in 04'. That was entirely unexpected though in hindsight not surprising. Hope this one is good.
That was So, I hope the story is a good one.
Dirty White Boys is pre Swagger vs parallel and obviously something of a pre model for Earl. Dirty White Boys is a good read for sure. As mentioned, all the Swagger books, - Bob Lee or Earl - range from good to f-ing amazing, but for the samurai and NASCAR Bob Lee books can be passed over. He pokes fun at himself for those two less than stellar Bob Lee novels in the latest book.
brickboy240
04-16-14, 14:39
I used to own an M-38 Carcano just like the one Oswald used.
If you too had spent much trigger time with one like I did...you too would realize that there is no way he made those shots with that rifle.
-brickboy240
I used to own an M-38 Carcano just like the one Oswald used.
If you too had spent much trigger time with one like I did...you too would realize that there is no way he made those shots with that rifle.
-brickboy240
Of all the documents, etc I read, that book convinced me of that fact more than anything else.
brickboy240
04-16-14, 16:37
One of my father's longtime friends worked closely with former Dallas District Attorney, Henry Wade for decades. Wade was the guy that tried Jack Ruby for killing Oswald and was District Attorney there until the late 80s.
His friend sat in the the Warren Commission hearings as well as aided in gathering information in Dallas and passing it on to DC.
His exact words to us many years ago were, "don't believe a damn thing in that silly report." He never would alliterate on what he meant by that but there was a certain seriousness in his voice when he said it that I will never forget. Dad tried several times to plug him for more info on that but bringing it up made him angry and tight-lipped.
Now I don't take that to believe what I saw in Oliver Stone's movie...but you will never convince me that Oswald made those shots or that he acted alone.
-brickboy240
One of my father's longtime friends worked closely with former Dallas District Attorney, Henry Wade for decades. Wade was the guy that tried Jack Ruby for killing Oswald and was District Attorney there until the late 80s.
His friend sat in the the Warren Commission hearings as well as aided in gathering information in Dallas and passing it on to DC.
His exact words to us many years ago were, "don't believe a damn thing in that silly report." He never would alliterate on what he meant by that but there was a certain seriousness in his voice when he said it that I will never forget. Dad tried several times to plug him for more info on that but bringing it up made him angry and tight-lipped.
Now I don't take that to believe what I saw in Oliver Stone's movie...but you will never convince me that Oswald made those shots or that he acted alone.
-brickboy240
The vast majority of the fact patterns seem to support that conclusion.
skullworks
04-21-14, 06:02
I was introduced to Hunter's books by a fellow gunsmithing student at Yavapai College back in '97 - the book was "Dirty White Boys." After that I was a devout Hunter-fan (as in have I read everything) until "The 47th Samurai" which was total and utter crap. After that pile of horseshit I haven't bothered with any of his following books. In general I prefer the books about Earl over the Bob Lee-series.
So Hunter got back on track with "I, Sniper" and the book that follows are GTG?
Oh, and I thought this was an interesting (though by now dated) read: http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/gunslinger-stephen-hunter/
Plumber237
04-21-14, 06:16
Absolutely, I didn't mind the 47th Samurai as much as I did the Nascar one, but they were definately Hunter's low point in the series. IMO he definately got back on track from "I, Sniper" on, "Soft Target" was meh, but all the others post 47th have been well worth reading. I'm actually in the same boat as you, preferring the Earl books (even though "Havana" didn't really do it for me), "Hot Springs" & "Pale Horse Coming" were amazing.
skullworks
04-21-14, 06:26
Ok, time to fill up the Kindle then. BTW, I wish Brad Thor was as careful about his research as Hunter is.
I was introduced to Hunter's books by a fellow gunsmithing student at Yavapai College back in '97 - the book was "Dirty White Boys." After that I was a devout Hunter-fan (as in have I read everything) until "The 47th Samurai" which was total and utter crap. After that pile of horseshit I haven't bothered with any of his following books. In general I prefer the books about Earl over the Bob Lee-series.
So Hunter got back on track with "I, Sniper" and the book that follows are GTG?
Oh, and I thought this was an interesting (though by now dated) read: http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/gunslinger-stephen-hunter/
As mentioned, only two worth passing over are the NASCAR book and Samurai. Before and after that, GTG. Some better than others for sure, but still a decent Hunter book, and this latest, a MUST read Hunter book.
Ok, time to fill up the Kindle then. BTW, I wish Brad Thor was as careful about his research as Hunter is.
I can't get through Brad Thor books and can't figure out the interest. I got about 30 pages into one book of his recently that got raves, and put it down. I read a few of his early books and didn't find them memorable. Not bad, just not memorable.
Here is a little teaser of the latest Swagger, "Sniper's Honor." Hunter talks about why it is set in Ukraine.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/05/stephen-hunter-snipers-honor.php
I find his later books to be hit or miss, but still better than 90% of long established writers. The same can be said for for W.E.B. Griffin.
walkin' trails
05-20-14, 08:18
I find his later books to be hit or miss, but still better than 90% of long established writers. The same can be said for for W.E.B. Griffin.
Agreed. If you've read everything Griffin has written, they all follow a particular story line just adapted to the timeframe he is writing about. His Honor Bound series has been pretty good. The President's Agent series sometimes gets a little childish. I haven't had too many issues with Hunter's Swaggar series as I'm relatively new to them. I still think Griffin's overall works deserve merrit. For good or bad, the Brotherhood OF War influenced my uneventful military service.
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As a kid, the assassination of JFK was discussed, hypothesized, speculated and conjectured upon, ad nauseam.
Much as I enjoy Stephen Hunter's writing, I just can't read any more about JFK's assassination.
I just finished reading Sniper's Honor, the newly released Bob Lee book. It started off good, but for me it really bogged down in the middle and I had a hard time finishing it. Some of the story line sucked, IMO, but lots of WW2 weapon detail that helped make up for it. The book is basically laid out in a way so that every other chapter is current day, and the chapters inbetween are 1944 WW2 Western Front Russians vs Germans.
Looking at the reviews on Amazon, it appears others liked it more than I did: http://www.amazon.com/Snipers-Honor-Bob-Swagger-Novel/dp/1451640218
I'll toss in another vote for Pale Horse Coming. For a gun buff, it's just classic. The thinly-veiled oldschool hardcases were a great touch.
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