View Full Version : 5.45x39 7N6 is now Banned from Import.
JBI armory produce a 5.45x39 Pistol a pawn request which now under the law makes 5.45x39 a armor piercing round and is now banned from import by the ATF. So feel free to say thanks to these idiots that just cost AK shooters cheap pinking ammo. https://www.facebook.com/jbi.armory
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129763
Ak Operators Union, Local 47-74 made a recorded call to the ATF, feel free to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zDFXe5kMWQ
Published on Mar 29, 2014
Here's a recorded telephone conversation with a representative of the ATF regarding the import ban of 5.45x39 7N6 (surplus). Listen to the phone call.
"Copes Distributing has confirmed that the ATF has in fact shut off the import of 5.45×39 surplus ammo. From a post they made on AR15.com:
Confirmed from the IMPORT BRANCH of the BATFE…Just got off the phone with them….Exact words No more Imports of 5.45×39 Ammo……. Don’t hate me as we are OUT OF STOCK ALREADY….. Just delivering the message…"
Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with these retards at JBI armory. On the other hand, does anyone think that maybe it's not OK for the ATF to be able to ban whatever the hell they want by the stroke of a pen? Is that all it takes?
Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with these retards at JBI armory. On the other hand, does anyone think that maybe it's not OK for the ATF to be able to ban whatever the hell they want by the stroke of a pen? Is that all it takes?
Agreed the ATF hopefully will be challenged, yet it is truly a spit in the face from company's like them on gun owners who depend on affordable ammo to train with is now gone. People are extremely upset and right full so, not right on making threats but that company has just killed it for a ton of people who could actually afford to go to a rifle class, much less their ability to go to the range and have fun without worrying about did they just shoot a weeks pay worth of ammo. They damn well knew this was going to happen, they are not the only one who have built a 5.45x39 Pistol. Others kept it quiet so the ATF would not hit it with the ban hammer. The owner is even cracking jokes about it as if what they did was no big deal, in a economy where people are just getting by, this will hurt those gun owners the most. I depended on that cheap ammo to afford a rifle class that take 1,000-1500 rounds. Domestic ammo cost almost double what 7N6 did. 197 plus shipping for Hornady for 500 or it was 160 shipped for 1K of 7N6 or 2K for 325 shipped. There was a huge reason NOT one of the respected AK builders would never consider or even put one together a pistol AK chamber in 5.45x39.
Yeah they are complete idiots. It's a shame that we have to hide anything because we might have any (insert alphabet soup name here) agency kicking our doors in or banning shit over night. If this pans out to be true, JBI armory ruined it for a lot of people. Let's not forget the bigger picture though.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 08:36
Count me as one of those people it has really hurt. I have zero income at the moment, and I was wanting to get cans once I started working so I could get back out and shoot cheaply while I got my financial situation better. Thanks to these retards and the lords of the BATF reloading .223 has now become cheaper.
Hopefully AIM and the rest will sue JBI, or better the BATF, and get this overturned. This is going to hurt the ammo market due to a cheap supply of a an alternate source of ammo being ripped off the market.
Yeah they are complete idiots. It's a shame that we have to hide anything because we might have any (insert alphabet soup name here) agency kicking our doors in or banning shit over night. If this pans out to be true, JBI armory ruined it for a lot of people. Let's not forget the bigger picture though.
Ak Operators Union, Local 47-74 made a recorded call to the ATF, feel free to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zDFXe5kMWQ
Published on Mar 29, 2014
Here's a recorded telephone conversation with a representative of the ATF regarding the import ban of 5.45x39 7N6 (surplus). Listen to the phone call.
Hopefully AIM and the rest will sue JBI, or better the BATF, and get this overturned.
Nothing was able to overturn the 7.62x39 import ban when guess what caused that, another idiot company built a AK pistol.
Well it sounds as if she's 100% sure. I figured as much. Tightening the screw and all that.
So, what's next?
Well it sounds as if she's 100% sure. I figured as much. Tightening the screw and all that.
So, what's next?
Pray more American company's to start producing. The very cheap 7N6 prices almost made it a for sure thing no one could make money to produce it here. Try to scale back the ATF authority or abolish them all together.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 09:08
I don't see domestic manufacturing of this round and keeping it cheaper than 5.56 and able to buy in bulk. I wager more 7n6 were bought in bulk than 5.56 in the past. This is going to hurt those who were wanting to take classes but had a tight budget. This will also hurt the ammo market.
I figured If I have to buy commercial ammo, I might as well support the only American company making it, so they keep doing it. Just in case some spineless worker for the ATF bans all imported ammo.
From what I've read there is new stock (Wolf, Red Army, Tula, etc...) that is sans steel core, and will be just fine to import. The guy at JBI is a complete a-hole for screwing over an entire group of shooters, and hopefully his business is impacted in the same manner that he just effected millions of shooters.
Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 09:32
The only good thing I see and hope Karma is on our side is the lowering price of 74 variants. I'm still going to shoot it. Love the round and weapon. But I have been feeling sick since Friday, considering I had no means to stock up for the past month or more.
The only good thing I see and hope Karma is on our side is the lowering price of 74 variants. I'm still going to shoot it. Love the round and weapon. But I have been feeling sick since Friday, considering I had no means to stock up for the past month or more.
When I heard about the possibility of the import ban two days ago went to 6 online stores to order a few crates and all were SOLD OUT.
Few years ago friends were ridiculing me when I was snapping up crates of this stuff. Sitting on 5 crates currently.
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Mauser KAR98K
03-30-14, 10:30
I now wish I had gotten into 5.45 a lot sooner than I had. Love the round and cheapness of it. It will still remain inexpensive, but it will hurt the wallet more than it had before. We need a sea change in politics badly to keep shooting from being an upper class privileged.
Well, I guess I won't be getting into 5.45 AKs after all....
Back to the ol' 5.56.
Until the the next ban craze....
Well, I guess I won't be getting into 5.45 AKs after all....
Back to the ol' 5.56.
Until the the next ban craze....
You can still get 5.45x39 just not the surplus ammo 7N6.
black22rifle
03-30-14, 12:25
I find it hard to believe that nobody made an Ak pistol in 5.45 and put it out there for sale until December 2011. If it was the first what took the ATF so long?
Don Robison
03-30-14, 12:52
I find it hard to believe that nobody made an Ak pistol in 5.45 and put it out there for sale until December 2011. If it was the first what took the ATF so long?
Missouri Custom Arms built at least one in 2007. There is an old for sale thread on TOS from June 2007 that comes up if you google 5.45 pistol.
https://www.google.com/search?q=5.45+pistol&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Tlk4U6a_NsuxsQSQl4DYBw&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=681
black22rifle
03-30-14, 13:01
so why has it just been banned now?
This might sound stupid...but I can't help but wonder if the fact a 5.45 krink pistol has been seen in the last several recent episodes of "The Walking Dead" helped get them on the BATF's radar of late...
Really, I blame the BATF first and foremost, but you know what, I DO blame the makers of the pistols as well, and I gather there are more than just this JBI out there.
If you lived in a totalitarian country and spent your time hiding out from the regime, obviously they would be your main enemy and deserve the lion's share of the scorn.....but also deserving some hate is the bumbling idiot among you who in an effort to make a buck, manages to attract the secret police to your hideout.
You can still get 5.45x39 just not the surplus ammo 7N6.
Yeah, but considering the whole point would have been to get into something cheaper to shoot than ARs, that 7n6 sure was priced right. :(
You can kiss the 7n6 goodbye IMO. Like the Chinese steel cores in '94. Olympic Arms Redux
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana
And yet We keep sending the same bunch of losers, thieves, and morons back to DC every 2,4 and 6 years. It boggles the mind. Term limits and bans from lobbying for life after terms might help.
justin_247
03-30-14, 16:48
so why has it just been banned now?
This is my question, as well. 5.45x39 "pistol" builds have been around for quite some time.
Ouroborous
03-30-14, 17:38
Been following this ever since the rumor mill churned out Russian import bans due to sanctions.
I'm glad I did what I could as far as getting Crates stacked but I literally just finished an AR in 5.45 last week and am now feeling like I should've just bought more 5.56.
black22rifle
03-30-14, 17:46
I dont think its right to blame it on them. AK pistols in 5.45 have been around at least a year and all of sudden the ATF wants to ban it? Blame the ATF Idiots.
I dont think its right to blame it on them. AK pistols in 5.45 have been around at least a year and all of sudden the ATF wants to ban it? Blame the ATF Idiots.
Well maybe, maybe not but it gave them an excuse to hide behind.
Been following this ever since the rumor mill churned out Russian import bans due to sanctions.
I'm glad I did what I could as far as getting Crates stacked but I literally just finished an AR in 5.45 last week and am now feeling like I should've just bought more 5.56.
Thanks JBI you fuking Douchebags!
That is what I was feeling as well, yet the other commercial ammo for my AK74 is still cheaper than 5.56.
justin_247
03-30-14, 18:39
That is what I was feeling as well, yet the other commercial ammo for my AK74 is still cheaper than 5.56.
The difference right now, from what I can tell, is about a $0.01 a round. Of course, over 1,000 rounds, that adds up to over $10.00 in savings. So I guess all is not lost, yet. I may as well continue shooting it until the price spikes even more or I shoot out the barrel.
The difference right now, from what I can tell, is about a $0.01 a round. Of course, over 1,000 rounds, that adds up to over $10.00 in savings. So I guess all is not lost, yet. I may as well continue shooting it until the price spikes even more or I shoot out the barrel.
Well over all the 5.45x39 is a better round in my opine. Flys flatter, shoots softer and does well in a SBR without loosing a lot of speed like the 5.56 does. The price was great for the time it lasted. I hope it gets overturned.
Kalash9305
03-30-14, 21:14
High quality new commercial 5.45 Russian like Golden Tiger or even Silver Bear can still be had for about 25 cents / round with shipping
The 74 is a great little weapon
Now if you're looking for the absolute cheapest to shoot with each platform yeah banning 7n6 sucks but very good quality 5.45 can still be obtained cheaper than a lot of the 5.56 out there
I have 3 AR's including a 6920 SOCOM but my 74's with the 45 rd Bakelites are my go to weapons if it hits the fan
Good for HD if needed but flat shooting for longer ranges and the reliability is unquestioned
I will keep buying 74's especially since their price will come down a bit because of this
It's all in what one wants out of their rifle as always
Ouroborous
03-30-14, 21:28
The difference right now, from what I can tell, is about a $0.01 a round. Of course, over 1,000 rounds, that adds up to over $10.00 in savings. So I guess all is not lost, yet. I may as well continue shooting it until the price spikes even more or I shoot out the barrel.
.18˘/rnd commercial ammo?
Mind sharing a link?
I haven't found anything cheaper than .24˘ for 5.45-- .17˘/7n6 is (was) a steal when compared.
justin_247
03-30-14, 22:17
.18˘/rnd commercial ammo?
Mind sharing a link?
I haven't found anything cheaper than .24˘ for 5.45-- .17˘/7n6 is (was) a steal when compared.
I was comparing commercial 5.45 with commercial 5.56... in particular, Red Army Standard 5.45 vs Wolf 5.56. The difference in cost between the two, at least at AIM Surplus, is about $0.01 a round.
7N6 is *way* cheaper, but it's not really available anywhere anymore.
http://militarygunsupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=32&products_id=598
$520 a crate before shipping... Still cheaper than 5.56 but damn that stings.
Ouroborous
03-30-14, 23:25
I was comparing commercial 5.45 with commercial 5.56... in particular, Red Army Standard 5.45 vs Wolf 5.56. The difference in cost between the two, at least at AIM Surplus, is about $0.01 a round.
7N6 is *way* cheaper, but it's not really available anywhere anymore.
Copy that. I thought I was missing something there...
http://militarygunsupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=32&products_id=598
Now that it's "AP" those $520 cases will fly off the shelves.
$20 more than Non-corrosive but who gives a crap--it's panic buy time boys! :(
Ya'll really need to look at the bigger picture.
If some of you put as much effort continually supporting our second amendment rights as pointing fingers and blaming others in the gun community we'd be alot further than we are now reclaiming rights lost over the years ( machine gun ban, import bans, NFA, etc. )
Instead everyone wants to let feelings and immaturity get the best of them and missing the larger picture. Honestly if you care more about some guy building pistols than the ATF trampling our gun rights then you probably don't belong here with our brothers in arms.
I'm also sure there were a lot of indivuals that have built pistols ak and ar variants that shoot 5.45x39. You gonna go flame them too? The guy over at JBI wasn't the first to build or sell a pistol chambered in 5.45x39.
black22rifle
03-30-14, 23:53
Ya'll really need to look at the bigger picture.
If some of you put as much effort continually supporting our second amendment rights as pointing fingers and blaming others in the gun community we'd be alot further than we are now reclaiming rights lost over the years ( machine gun ban, import bans, NFA, etc. )
Instead everyone wants to let feelings and immaturity get the best of them and missing the larger picture. Honestly if you care more about some guy building pistols than the ATF trampling our gun rights then you probably don't belong here with our brothers in arms.
I'm also sure there were a lot of indivuals that have built pistols ak and ar variants that shoot 5.45x39. You gonna go flame them too? The guy over at JBI wasn't the first to build or sell a pistol chambered in 5.45x39.
I agree, Why fight us when we can just defeat ourselves?
Ouroborous
03-31-14, 00:17
Comment retracted due to ATF statement on Radom of Poland--banning 7n6 over a pistol that was never actually imported into the US.
Complete and utter B.S
Before a I saw through a glass darkly...
Ya'll really need to look at the bigger picture.
If some of you put as much effort continually supporting our second amendment rights as pointing fingers and blaming others in the gun community we'd be alot further than we are now reclaiming rights lost over the years ( machine gun ban, import bans, NFA, etc. )
Instead everyone wants to let feelings and immaturity get the best of them and missing the larger picture. Honestly if you care more about some guy building pistols than the ATF trampling our gun rights then you probably don't belong here with our brothers in arms.
I'm also sure there were a lot of indivuals that have built pistols ak and ar variants that shoot 5.45x39. You gonna go flame them too? The guy over at JBI wasn't the first to build or sell a pistol chambered in 5.45x39.
Great post brother.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that our rights are under constant threat and that we need to stick together.
However, there's already been a historic precedent set where someone builds a pistol in a rifle caliber and the round gets banned e.g Chinese steel core 7.62x39 in the 1990's or Elite Ammunitions Trident bullets in 6.5, 6.8, and .223 in 2011.
Knowing this, wouldn't the right thing for a manufacturer wishing to make a rifle caliber pistol be to try and work within the system to have the bullet reclassified for an exemption like M855 so as not to throw their fellow gun owners under the bus?
With all that in mind, I don't believe JBI or any other company making 5.45 pistols had anyone's best interests in mind but their own. Just cause "they got away with it for a year" does not in my opinion justify screwing it up for the entire country.
YMMV
Agreed 100%. Those people making excuses for those who have screwed over gun owners sound just like a child who uses the defense that everyone else is doing it.. That in same twisted sense of logic makes it ok. He still screwed over gun owners, first person or not to make a pistol in 5.45x39 does not matter. He has also made it know he intends to make a AK in 7.62 x 54R
polymorpheous
03-31-14, 09:08
Worst timing ever!
I just fell into a Bulgy kit w/ original barrel last week.
I have amassed the kit and one ((10)) mag.
I would have enough saved this next weekend to pick up a tin of 7n6 had this not happened.
I guess I'll check out Red Army stuff.
The ATF just needs to go away.
Wideners has Wolf mil classic still for 185 per 750. Saves you a Hamilton
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thopkins22
03-31-14, 09:40
I'm not sure how this stands up in court.
Per US Code:
(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
5.45x39 doesn't meet any of those definitions. It was not designed and intended for use in pistols and it's not constructed entirely from any of those metals.
CrazyFingers
03-31-14, 10:37
I'm not sure how this stands up in court.
Per US Code:
(17)
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
5.45x39 doesn't meet any of those definitions. It was not designed and intended for use in pistols and it's not constructed entirely from any of those metals.
7N6 meets the legal definitions from the ATF's perspective: A projectile core, made from steel, which may be used in a handgun.
jerrysimons
03-31-14, 11:36
7N6 meets the legal definitions from the ATF's perspective: A projectile core, made from steel, which may be used in a handgun.
So does Barns TSX loaded .223/5.56?
So does Barns TSX loaded .223/5.56?
Barnes is all copper.
Not only is the 7n6 cheaper but my understanding is that is has superior ballistic qualities to the Russian/etc commercial loadings. I know that the the whole "poison bullet" thing may have been somewhat overblown, but there is little doubt that the open tipped and steel penetrator design of 7n6 is a highly effective round.
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5442/52gr7n1wolf59grfmjbarna.jpg
7n6 is on the far left.
Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with these retards at JBI armory. On the other hand, does anyone think that maybe it's not OK for the ATF to be able to ban whatever the hell they want by the stroke of a pen? Is that all it takes?
"Sporter clause" from 1968 GCA allows ATF to legislate by decree. We have to get the "sporter clause" removed from the law. Significant revisions were accomplished with FOPA 86 but we didn't get the "sporter clause" but did get the closing of the NFA registry regarding domestic machine guns.
jerrysimons
03-31-14, 15:26
Barnes is all copper.
Ah, so not beryllium copper?
thopkins22
03-31-14, 15:49
7N6 meets the legal definitions from the ATF's perspective: A projectile core, made from steel, which may be used in a handgun.
Somehow I missed the word "core."
"Sporter clause" from 1968 GCA allows ATF to legislate by decree. We have to get the "sporter clause" removed from the law. Significant revisions were accomplished with FOPA 86 but we didn't get the "sporter clause" but did get the closing of the NFA registry regarding domestic machine guns.
Thanks for the information. I'm going to go check that out. I just don't understand how anyone could pass an act like this and think that it could even be remotely legal. All is well here in Amerika, I guess.
Thanks for the information. I'm going to go check that out. I just don't understand how anyone could pass an act like this and think that it could even be remotely legal. All is well here in Amerika, I guess.
It's worse than you imagined.
In 1934 they wished to include handguns in the NFA.
Most people are unaware they actually banned foreign machine guns in 1968.
And under the "H.R. 3155 Racketeer Weapons and Violent Crime Control Act" which is what they tried to pass before Reagan signed FOPA, domestic machine guns be banned from future transfer, so they would be registered to current owners until they passed away and then confiscated.
The "sporter clause" in the '68 GCA is an arbitrary set of general classifications that allows ATF to determine if something has "legitimate sporting applications" or not.
If you want a real eye opener, read this.
H.R. 3155 Racketeer Weapons and Violent Crime Control Act... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?138963-H-R-3155-Racketeer-Weapons-and-Violent-Crime-Control-Act)
There is a petition that I got from the Military Arms Channel website to remove this ridiculous ban. The more people that sign it the better. Here it is:
https://www.change.org/petitions/bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-reopen-importation-of-the-russsian-military-surplus-7n6
There is a petition that I got from the Military Arms Channel website to remove this ridiculous ban. The more people that sign it the better. Here it is:
https://www.change.org/petitions/bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-reopen-importation-of-the-russsian-military-surplus-7n6
You understand the ATF is applying a law that has been in force since 1968 don't you? Might was well start a petition to allow sales of "steel core" 7.62x51, 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 while you are at it.
Problem is anytime somebody makes an AK, AR, FAL or HK pistol that is the END of rifle ammunition in that caliber with "steel cores" because now a handgun exists that fires "armor piercing ammo."
There was a time when I was growing up the military 5.56 was everywhere cheap. Then some dickhead decided to make an AR pistol (might have been Olympic) and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
I think it was Remington who made a .308 handgun and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
I think it was Vector who made the AK pistol and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
And now it seems ATF has gotten their hands on an example of a 5.45 AK pistol and that is the end of that ammo. Everyone is complaining, nothing with change.
The ONLY WAY you are going to change it is to remove the "sporter clause" from the Gun Control Act of 1968. ATF can't reverse their decision, they are following the law and have no discretion in the matter. Even with 10 BILLION signatures on a petition, the administration (especially the Obama administration) is not going to overturn it, it's the law and has been since 1968.
There is nothing NEW here except that some dickheads decided to make pistols in 5.45x39 and screw up the end of importation / domestic production of "steel core" ammo in that caliber.
To make things different, you will need a bill (similar to FOPA) that removes the "sporter clause" of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Then it needs get through Congress and actually be signed by the President. That kind of bill has happened EXACTLY ONE TIME since 1968 and it took almost twenty years to get it to the desk of a President willing to sign it.
And people still complain about FOPA 86 as if it is a bad thing.
I know that the the whole "poison bullet" thing may have been somewhat overblown.....
The literal Afghan translation of what news reports hailed the 5.45 wounds as like "poison" were indeed overblown. The wounds felt like "poison" to the Musha Hadeen alright, but the translation was more along the lines of the poison one felt when being stung by a bee. The Hadeen fighters dreaded the 5.45 not because of its wounding potential, but because the Soviets could engage them much more effectively at longer ranges. The problem with the 7n6 and most of the other 5.45 loads is that they only yaw and tumble. They have too thick of a jacket, and no points of jacket tearing such as an open tip or a cannelure.
Anybody that has an AK/AR pistol is a ****ing fag.
http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp
You understand the ATF is applying a law that has been in force since 1968 don't you? Might was well start a petition to allow sales of "steel core" 7.62x51, 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 while you are at it.
Problem is anytime somebody makes an AK, AR, FAL or HK pistol that is the END of rifle ammunition in that caliber with "steel cores" because now a handgun exists that fires "armor piercing ammo."
There was a time when I was growing up the military 5.56 was everywhere cheap. Then some dickhead decided to make an AR pistol (might have been Olympic) and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
I think it was Remington who made a .308 handgun and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
I think it was Vector who made the AK pistol and that was the end of that ammo. Everybody complained, nothing changed.
And now it seems ATF has gotten their hands on an example of a 5.45 AK pistol and that is the end of that ammo. Everyone is complaining, nothing with change.
The ONLY WAY you are going to change it is to remove the "sporter clause" from the Gun Control Act of 1968. ATF can't reverse their decision, they are following the law and have no discretion in the matter. Even with 10 BILLION signatures on a petition, the administration (especially the Obama administration) is not going to overturn it, it's the law and has been since 1968.
There is nothing NEW here except that some dickheads decided to make pistols in 5.45x39 and screw up the end of importation / domestic production of "steel core" ammo in that caliber.
To make things different, you will need a bill (similar to FOPA) that removes the "sporter clause" of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Then it needs get through Congress and actually be signed by the President. That kind of bill has happened EXACTLY ONE TIME since 1968 and it took almost twenty years to get it to the desk of a President willing to sign it.
And people still complain about FOPA 86 as if it is a bad thing.
Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. You mean all it takes is some left wing anti gun group to submit a 7.62x54R pistol intentionally just to get it banned because it has a steel core? If that's true then that's crazy, total BS. With all of the AR pistols then how is the 62 green tip round not banned? Isn't that steel core?
M855 and M2 AP will also be banned.
I've been reading around the net that in order for a steel core round to be banned because a pistol was made etc., the round has to be larger than .22 cal. Anyone know if that's true or untrue?
Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. You mean all it takes is some left wing anti gun group to submit a 7.62x54R pistol intentionally just to get it banned because it has a steel core? If that's true then that's crazy, total BS. With all of the AR pistols then how is the 62 green tip round not banned? Isn't that steel core?
Yes, that is correct, make a Mosin pistol and that round will be banned from importation. And I've seen some chopped down Mosin's that would probably qualify as a pistol, all it would take is for ATF to get ahold of one.
Also there are different rules about domestic manufacture vs. importation. It's a lot easier to regulate (ban) imports. This is exactly what happened with 7.62x39 Chinese steel core ammo that used to be dirt cheap.
This is also why the AKForum will not allow any discussion of 5.45 AK pistols at all.
RULE 15. No threads for 5.45x39 pistols of any kind will be allowed on this board.
Of course, before today there were a bunch of tards saying "Won't happen" and "doesn't qualify" and a bunch of other stupidity that demonstrates they have short memories.
http://akfiles.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1496706
I've been reading around the net that in order for a steel core round to be banned because a pistol was made etc., the round has to be larger than .22 cal. Anyone know if that's true or untrue?
If that were true we'd be importing cheap 5.56 steel core surplus but we aren't and haven't been for a long time.
Yes, that is correct, make a Mosin pistol and that round will be banned from importation. And I've seen some chopped down Mosin's that would probably qualify as a pistol, all it would take is for ATF to get ahold of one.
Also there are different rules about domestic manufacture vs. importation. It's a lot easier to regulate (ban) imports. This is exactly what happened with 7.62x39 Chinese steel core ammo that used to be dirt cheap.
This is also why the AKForum will not allow any discussion of 5.45 AK pistols at all.
RULE 15. No threads for 5.45x39 pistols of any kind will be allowed on this board.
Of course, before today there were a bunch of tards saying "Won't happen" and "doesn't qualify" and a bunch of other stupidity that demonstrates they have short memories.
http://akfiles.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1496706
Anyone that has been in to AK's knows about 5.45 pistols.
Don't talk about them and Don't build them!!!
Leaveammoforme
03-31-14, 22:47
M855 and M2 AP will also be banned.
Based on what?
I believe previously that M855 has been ruled to not be AP and therefore it SHOULD still be importable.
M855 and M2 AP will also be banned.
Leaveammoforme
03-31-14, 23:32
I believe previously that M855 has been ruled to not be AP and therefore it SHOULD still be importable.
That's what I'm getting at. Green tips & black tips are specifically spelled out as exempt. I was wondering if he was saying he thought the ATF was going to remove exemptions.
The ATF will remove the exemptions. There is no fundamental difference between M855 and 7n6 on a technical level.
Interesting update of sorts http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1936596&postcount=1171
"The Public Affairs Office just informed me, that they are trying to hunt down the ban...and whether it is real or not.
Apparently....they still don't know if it is real.
She said there may or may not be a ban, and that they are having issues with information being given out that it is banned, and that it is not banned - and no one is making these announcements based on anything in writing."
polymorpheous
04-01-14, 09:02
WTF?!
Who's head will roll if this all turns out to be a hoax?
Mauser KAR98K
04-01-14, 11:28
This should make some of you mad. I have an idea on who it is.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=405810363
Description: One sealed can of surplus Russian 5.45x39 steel core. Total rounds inside of the sealed can is 1080. Will ship ground to continental USA for a fixed price of $25.00 This is great ammo for an AK-74 pistol or AR pistol chambered for the round, but check ATF regs before using it. Banned from import by the BATFE because I said so. ( 545 5.45x39 545x39 ammo ammunition )
This should make some of you mad. I have an idea on who it is.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=405810363
Description: One sealed can of surplus Russian 5.45x39 steel core. Total rounds inside of the sealed can is 1080. Will ship ground to continental USA for a fixed price of $25.00 This is great ammo for an AK-74 pistol or AR pistol chambered for the round, but check ATF regs before using it. Banned from import by the BATFE because I said so. ( 545 5.45x39 545x39 ammo ammunition )
I hate gunbroker.
Mauser KAR98K
04-01-14, 12:32
Oh it gets better. Does Leonard Embody ring a bell?
This should make some of you mad. I have an idea on who it is.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=405810363
Description: One sealed can of surplus Russian 5.45x39 steel core. Total rounds inside of the sealed can is 1080. Will ship ground to continental USA for a fixed price of $25.00 This is great ammo for an AK-74 pistol or AR pistol chambered for the round, but check ATF regs before using it. Banned from import by the BATFE because I said so. ( 545 5.45x39 545x39 ammo ammunition )
Hilarious. If he actually gets 10K I'm listing several cans for half that.
Raven Armament
04-01-14, 16:16
Oh it gets better. Does Leonard Embody ring a bell?
Yup, but he's not the one that caused it, even though he has motive.
Yup, but he's not the one that caused it, even though he has motive.
Raven,
Do you know who caused it? There a bunch of rumors going around but not too many facts.
Hilarious. If he actually gets 10K I'm listing several cans for half that.
Exactly, if that sells, I'll put a crate up for the low, low price of $15,000.
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Hilarious. If he actually gets 10K I'm listing several cans for half that.
Except for that maniac selling one tin for 10k, what do you guys think the realistic going rate will be for 7n6 tins & crates in the normal marketplace?
Leaveammoforme
04-01-14, 22:32
Except for that maniac selling one tin for 10k, what do you guys think the realistic going rate will be for 7n6 tins & crates in the normal marketplace?
I'd imagine it will never again be realistic. Priced equal to or any higher than 223 would be un-realistic in my book.
I'm new on this board, but very active on Texas boards for years. I know Jim at JBI Armory - he is not an "idiot" or "retard" (and those are the nicer names I have seen him called on here). He's made a total of 4 5.45mm AK pistols and contrary to what some have said on some forumns did not "work with" ATF to ban 7N6. None of the people disparaging JBI know him. He is good people. Don't get pissed at him about the fed's actions. If his 4 pistols were not used by ATF as the explanation for the ban, they would have found others because he's not the only one to have ever made one. Not only that, last I looked there are a hell of a lot of 5.56mm pistols on the market and we all have cans of M855. Where there is a will to ban, thery will find a reason. Blaming one of our own who literally works from his garage to make a living providing goods and services to US is counter productive in my view. Earl
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 03:10
I'm new on this board, but very active on Texas boards for years. I know Jim at JBI Armory - he is not an "idiot" or "retard" (and those are the nicer names I have seen him called on here). He's made a total of 4 5.45mm AK pistols and contrary to what some have said on some forumns did not "work with" ATF to ban 7N6. None of the people disparaging JBI know him. He is good people. Don't get pissed at him about the fed's actions. If his 4 pistols were used by ATF as the explanation for the ban, they would have found others because he's not the only one to have ever made one. Not only that, last I looked there are a hell of a lot of 5.56mm pistols on the market and we all have cans of M855. Where there is a will to ban, thery will find a reason. Blaming one of our own who literally works from his garage to make a living providing goods and services to US is counter productive in my view. Earl
It's commendable that you stick up for your bud. I agree that it's unfortunate that the finger is getting pointed at him. My advice is that you & him join as many forums as you can and try to salvage his name. My feelings on this subject are clear though. I hold EVERY manufacturer & EVERY customer of a 5.45 pistol responsible. As stated numerous times, 855ss109 has an exemption from the ATF. Best of luck.
I'm new on this board, but very active on Texas boards for years. I know Jim at JBI Armory - he is not an "idiot" or "retard" (and those are the nicer names I have seen him called on here). He's made a total of 4 5.45mm AK pistols and contrary to what some have said on some forumns did not "work with" ATF to ban 7N6. None of the people disparaging JBI know him. He is good people. Don't get pissed at him about the fed's actions. If his 4 pistols were not used by ATF as the explanation for the ban, they would have found others because he's not the only one to have ever made one. Not only that, last I looked there are a hell of a lot of 5.56mm pistols on the market and we all have cans of M855. Where there is a will to ban, thery will find a reason. Blaming one of our own who literally works from his garage to make a living providing goods and services to US is counter productive in my view. Earl
Anybody that owns or sells pistol versions of assault rifles is a bottom feeder, irregardless of the ban status of certain ammunition.
They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose other than to attract retards to the gun community.
^ Ignorance...
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ScottyRyan,
I don't own any pistol versions of military style rifles (nor do I care too). But I don't begrudge any man or woman for owning whatever they legally can. I have seen variants of your EXACT statement used by antigunners to explain why none of us need any military style weapons. "They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose."
There is no higher reason to own anything other than the fact you can and it's a bannanna up the butt of those that say you can't :)
Earl
gregster2u
04-02-14, 10:24
Anybody that owns or sells pistol versions of assault rifles is a bottom feeder, irregardless of the ban status of certain ammunition.
They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose other than to attract retards to the gun community.
What about us "bottom feeders" that want to legally SBR one? Is that a retard with an "illigetimate" weapon too?
Anybody that owns or sells pistol versions of assault rifles is a bottom feeder, irregardless of the ban status of certain ammunition.
They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose other than to attract retards to the gun community.
Congrats, you're basically using the same argument that anti gun groups use by calling them illigetimate weapons with no real purpose....
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polymorpheous
04-02-14, 10:47
I guess I found my new sig line.
Stay classy.
What about us "bottom feeders" that want to legally SBR one? Is that a retard with an "illigetimate" weapon too?
That is the only reason to own one.
Anybody that owns or sells pistol versions of assault rifles is a bottom feeder, irregardless of the ban status of certain ammunition.
They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose other than to attract retards to the gun community.
lol.......be honest now, don't hold back!
AR and AK pistols certainly work. Load them with faster burning powders and they still have rifle level terminal effects. Using standard military ammo?.......not so much as those loads were designed to burn in barrels longer than 12". Do I want one?.....of course not. They are bulky, and hard to shoot well........but it can be done with a decent verticle foregrip and reddot sight. They do zip through soft armor which will put them on the ATFs list of things to ban though.
gregster2u
04-02-14, 14:47
That is the only reason to own one.
So after I get a stamp from the ATF I'm no longer a bottom feeder?
So after I get a stamp from the ATF I'm no longer a bottom feeder?
Depends. How many "clips" did you empty into a dirt hill with the gun in useless form?
polymorpheous
04-02-14, 15:18
lol.......be honest now, don't hold back!
AR and AK pistols certainly work. Load them with faster burning powders and they still have rifle level terminal effects. Using standard military ammo?.......not so much as those loads were designed to burn in barrels longer than 12". Do I want one?.....of course not. They are bulky, and hard to shoot well........but it can be done with a decent verticle foregrip and reddot sight. They do zip through soft armor which will put them on the ATFs list of things to ban though.
Adding a vertical foregrip to a pistol makes it an NFA weapon.
Adding a vertical foregrip to a pistol makes it an NFA weapon.
oops, then in that case an AR/AK pistol doesn't seem very practical. :p
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 16:21
Depends. How many "clips" did you empty into a dirt hill with the gun in useless form?
Pretty sure those people call it a 'mag dump' . They say it before & after wasting a full magazine into nothing.
AR/AK pistols are like V6 Mustangs that have GT emblems on them. 'Gregster2u' is waiting on the other 2 cylinders to show up & got 7N6 banned in the process.
So, maybe you guys should petition to get AR and AK pistols banned. Sounds like that would make you happy.
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 17:10
So, maybe you guys should petition to get AR and AK pistols banned. Sounds like that would make you happy.
I would have more ammo choices and not any less weapon choices.....
I would have more ammo choices and not any less weapon choices.....
And that makes it a good thing, huh? No wonder gun owners are known as their own worst enemies.
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 17:24
And that makes it a good thing, huh? No wonder gun owners are known as their own worst enemies.
The only "enemies" here are the manufacturers that started they whole AR/AK pistol thing. Ammo that used to be legal, not just 7N6, is now illegal because they exist. Make me choose ammo or a toy, I'll choose ammo everyday of the week. Guns need ammo to run. Toys are messing that up.
The only "enemies" here are the manufacturers that started they whole AR/AK pistol thing. Ammo that used to be legal, not just 7N6, is now illegal because they exist. Make me choose ammo or a toy, I'll choose ammo everyday of the week. Guns need ammo to run. Toys are messing that up.
You view fellow gun owners as the enemy yet have no problem with the illogical law that is being used to further inhibit people from exercising their second amendment rights. This proves my point.
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 17:49
You view fellow gun owners as the enemy yet have no problem with the illogical law that is being used to further inhibit people from exercising their second amendment rights. This proves my point.
I don't follow the point that was made. What I'm saying is we, firearm industry as a whole, have had previous experiences of this EXACT issue with other firearms & ammo. The lesson was not learned & the mistake was made again. How was the mistake made again? By persons in this industry blurring laws for a quick buck & getting everybody noticed in the process.
You view fellow gun owners as the enemy yet have no problem with the illogical law that is being used to further inhibit people from exercising their second amendment rights. This proves my point.
A AK/AR pistol is a junky aftermarket novelty toy.
7n6 ammo is real legitimate military ammo.
polymorpheous
04-02-14, 18:37
The only "enemies" here are the manufacturers that started they whole AR/AK pistol thing. Ammo that used to be legal, not just 7N6, is now illegal because they exist. Make me choose ammo or a toy, I'll choose ammo everyday of the week. Guns need ammo to run. Toys are messing that up.
Yeah, the BATFE is totally on our side.
Manufacturers and American gun owners are the real threat here.
You people need to stop and listen to what you are saying...
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so difficult to grasp?
You view fellow gun owners as the enemy yet have no problem with the illogical law that is being used to further inhibit people from exercising their second amendment rights. This proves my point.
No, what he is saying is some people are too stupid to be owning/building firearms and those people screw it up for everyone else.
Yes, we know the law is illogical.
Yes, we don't like the illogical law.
Yes, the law is permanently on the books.
Yes, it will never be overturned.
Yes, this has happened atleast once in the past.
Yes, you will do nothing about it because retards in this country out number owners of military firearms 15 to 1
Yeah, the BATFE is totally on our side.
Manufacturers and American gun owners are the real threat here.
You people need to stop and listen to what you are saying...
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so difficult to grasp?
What are you going to do about it? Call bam bam at the white house to get the law overturned?
The rights we have are getting reduced. We are not getting any back. The best outcome is he hold onto what we have. Why cannot people grasp this?
polymorpheous
04-02-14, 19:03
The second amendment protects only owners of military firearms?
Why do we as gun owners find it difficult to gain any inch of our rights?
I mean, it should be easy when elitist gun owner alienate lay gun owners.
Mr. Ryan,
You know your Colt firearms, but beyond that, I find you of little use to the productivity of this board.
You have the distinction of being only the second individual on my ignore list.
Leaveammoforme
04-02-14, 19:19
Please answer the following question:
The super affordable 5.45 round known as 7N6 was banned in 2014 for what reason-
A) A new law was enacted
B) Pistols by several manufacturers had been made that chambered 7N6
C) 'Mag dumps' became too affordable
D) Leaveammoforme is a poo poo head
You view fellow gun owners as the enemy yet have no problem with the illogical law that is being used to further inhibit people from exercising their second amendment rights. This proves my point.
With all due respect Sir, I think we all can agree that many of these laws are illogical. You can start from the 89 import ban, 94 assault weapon ban then 97/98 import ban, barreled parts-kit ban and as a result we have had to jump through hoops
(single-stack import, thumbhole stock, US made & 922 Compliance parts... blah blah blah) The point being is we know WHY we can no longer have cheap surplus steel core 7.62x39 since a pistol was made and gave an excuse to cease further importation.
There is a reason why many builder would NOT build a 5.45 pistol, this is pretty common knowledge in the AK community not rocket science. Point being is they needed a reason and somebody gave them that reason.
It's unfortunate but idiots are easy to find in the firearms industry as well as the gun owners in America,the same rights we all cherish keep us from being able to exclude them. Go figure
thopkins22
04-02-14, 20:11
What are you going to do about it? Call bam bam at the white house to get the law overturned?
The rights we have are getting reduced. We are not getting any back. The best outcome is he hold onto what we have. Why cannot people grasp this?
I get this, but firearms rights are in a better position than they have been in decades. We have far more rights than we did only two decades ago, and by and large we've made excellent ground.
Are some things harder to sell? Sure, to the uniformed masses it's very difficult to explain why foreign, "AP" ammunition needs to be legalized. But I'm not filled with the doom that many are.
The reality is that at the federal level under Obama, our firearms rights have grown in some areas(like concealed carry on federal property,) and been reduced in others. It's give and take...and on the whole we're winning.
I get this, but firearms rights are in a better position than they have been in decades. We have far more rights than we did only two decades ago, and by and large we've made excellent ground.
Are some things harder to sell? Sure, to the uniformed masses it's very difficult to explain why foreign, "AP" ammunition needs to be legalized. But I'm not filled with the doom that many are.
The reality is that at the federal level under Obama, our firearms rights have grown in some areas(like concealed carry on federal property,) and been reduced in others. It's give and take...and on the whole we're winning.
I completely disagree with your assessment. Please come wake me up when the import ban and Hughes amendment is overturned.
SeriousStudent
04-02-14, 20:58
Here's a thought: Let's all stop jabbing a thumb in each other's eye.
black22rifle
04-02-14, 21:50
^ Ignorance...
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^ thread
It's my feeling that rifles made into pistols symbolizing an exorcism of oppressive guns laws is about the same as open carry guys going out into public just to mess with the cops. I had been delving into 5.45x39, but now I am glad that I drug my feet. It's unfortunate that so much more was lost than gained by producing a novelty firearm, just because.
polymorpheous
04-03-14, 00:07
Political momentum is on our side right now.
We need to keep pushing.
If you need to interject your negativity, fine.
But stay out of the way of the ones who are actively trying to preserve and restore YOUR rights.
The guys on the files managed to get a congressman on their side.
Cope's is hinting at a lawsuit.
The GOA has already issued a comment to the ATF.
I contacted my representative, have you?
A AK/AR pistol is a junky aftermarket novelty toy.
7n6 ammo is real legitimate military ammo.
The problem is "pistol versions" allowed for ready made SBRs with minimal gunsmithing and that was very attractive to a lot of people. I've got a few 7.62x39 AK SBRs by going that route.
But as much as I'd have loved to have a Krink pistol in 5.45x39 that I could have sent in for a side folder, I knew why they weren't out there and I'd rather be able to get the ammo cheap. The bitch of it is, now that the 7N6 ammo is gone...we are UNLIKELY to see anyone import a Krink pistol in 5.45 with a factory original barrel.
polymorpheous
04-03-14, 00:10
My understanding is that an importer is responsible for the 5.45 pistol.
The ATF pointed to Radom Poland.
Mauser KAR98K
04-03-14, 02:46
My understanding is that an importer is responsible for the 5.45 pistol.
The ATF pointed to Radom Poland.
I heard the same thing floating around. And I have heard that particular weapon hasn't been imported (yet). If the ATF is going by that a foreign weapon company has made a 5.45 pistol but has not (or will not) reach American shores is completely baseless of the move they made. Time, unfortunately, will tell what has happened, but it might be too late to reverse this nonsense.
polymorpheous
04-03-14, 03:05
ATF released a press statement today.
No mention of 7N6.
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Press-Room/Breaking-News/atf_director_jones_testimony_hogr_2apr14.pdf
Political momentum is on our side right now.
We need to keep pushing.
If you need to interject your negativity, fine.
But stay out of the way of the ones who are actively trying to preserve and restore YOUR rights.
The guys on the files managed to get a congressman on their side.
Cope's is hinting at a lawsuit.
The GOA has already issued a comment to the ATF.
I contacted my representative, have you?
This. Rather than whining about some people liking things I don't like, I'd rather try to do something about the problem at hand. I'm pissed at whoever submitted whatever they did to ATF regarding a 5.45 pistol, but I'm more pissed that this law and the ATF exist in the first place. Restricting an otherwise acceptable firearm as a response to a really stupid law hardly seems like a way to move gun rights forward.
With all due respect Sir, I think we all can agree that many of these laws are illogical. You can start from the 89 import ban, 94 assault weapon ban then 97/98 import ban, barreled parts-kit ban and as a result we have had to jump through hoops
(single-stack import, thumbhole stock, US made & 922 Compliance parts... blah blah blah) The point being is we know WHY we can no longer have cheap surplus steel core 7.62x39 since a pistol was made and gave an excuse to cease further importation.
There is a reason why many builder would NOT build a 5.45 pistol, this is pretty common knowledge in the AK community not rocket science. Point being is they needed a reason and somebody gave them that reason.
While I'm pissed that someone supposedly submitted *something* to ATF regarding a 5.45 pistol, I don't view them as the 'enemy' of gun rights. They aren't the ones trying to incrementally, and via backdoor means, restrict access to the right to bear arms. It's either stupid, ignorant, or greedy to purposely give the ATF a reason to ban import of a good, cheap, round. We (or maybe just I) don't know yet, for sure, what the true status of this ban is and what the actual reason is.
The problem is "pistol versions" allowed for ready made SBRs with minimal gunsmithing and that was very attractive to a lot of people. I've got a few 7.62x39 AK SBRs by going that route.
But as much as I'd have loved to have a Krink pistol in 5.45x39 that I could have sent in for a side folder, I knew why they weren't out there and I'd rather be able to get the ammo cheap. The bitch of it is, now that the 7N6 ammo is gone...we are UNLIKELY to see anyone import a Krink pistol in 5.45 with a factory original barrel.
Yes I understand this.
Junky 3rd party pistol builds is what this topic pertains to.
It does not pertain to someone taking a factory PAP M92 and converting it back to an SBR
That press release was specifically referring to their botched store front operations and has nothing to do with any other topic.
ATF released a press statement today.
No mention of 7N6.
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Press-Room/Breaking-News/atf_director_jones_testimony_hogr_2apr14.pdf
Representative Matt Salmon is getting into the mix. I'm sure its because his office got calls and letters about the BATFE and their arbitrary lawless actions. It does help to call and remind elected officials they work for us.
http://www.nraila.org/media/12122729/03312014-rep_mattsalmon_batfe_letter.pdf
Representative Matt Salmon is getting into the mix. I'm sure its because his office got calls and letters about the BATFE and their arbitrary lawless actions. It does help to call and remind elected officials they work for us.
Very interested in seeing what comes of this.
thepatriot2705
04-06-14, 18:43
Rumor has it JBI is also working on a 54r variant of the pistol. I smell a setup.
Rumor has it JBI is also working on a 54r variant of the pistol. I smell a setup.
That's what I thought might happen. Some left wing, anti-gun group artificially using this loophole in order to get rid of as much ammo as possible. Total BS. The NRA should initiate a lawsuit to prevent this from happening.
thepatriot2705
04-06-14, 19:11
That's what I thought might happen. Some left wing, anti-gun group artificially using this loophole in order to get rid of as much ammo as possible. Total BS. The NRA should initiate a lawsuit to prevent this from happening.
I don't know how much good it will do. As a member of the younger generation(college), more and more people and anti-gun and the common core is as anti-2nd amendment as you can get. Your right that the NRA should fight this, but I fear that we will lose ground bit by bit on the national level.
The NRA says that the ban is a result of one of Obamas executive actions. What BS. I knew this thing was rigged.
Here is link to article:http://www.nraila.org/legislation/federal-legislation/2014/4/batfe-bans-import-of-military-surplus-545-sporting-ammunition.aspx
The NRA says that the ban is a result of one of Obamas executive actions. What BS. I knew this thing was rigged.
Here is link to article:http://www.nraila.org/legislation/federal-legislation/2014/4/batfe-bans-import-of-military-surplus-545-sporting-ammunition.aspx
The story that you've linked to says nothing of executive orders. It says that the NRA-ILA is working with reps to get a statement from the BATFE about if there is a ban and why it's been banned. Then to sponsor legislation to prevent bans like this without Congressional oversight. Did you read the link?
The ATF will not respond with any meaningful response. Congressman writing letters to them will not change anything.
Originally posted by Stormin
The story that you've linked to says nothing of executive orders. It says that the NRA-ILA is working with reps to get a statement from the BATFE about if there is a ban and why it's been banned. Then to sponsor legislation to prevent bans like this without Congressional oversight. Did you read the link?
Yes I read the link. I read the story too. I even read the title of the article. Did you read the title of the article? I would guess not from your reply. Here is the title of the article since you missed it:
"Obama Administration's Latest "Executive Action" Aims to Curb Ammo Imports"
It doesnt just mention executive orders, it mentions is in THE TITLE.
Here's an official update:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
Mauser KAR98K
04-08-14, 10:47
Here's an official update:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
From reading that, it seems ATF (under who's orders) went looking for something to ban 7n6 or anything and found that little gem. Wonder who imported it, if it was even imported?
Here's an official update:
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
So the 5.45 pistol was approved for importation and use in November 2011 but all of the sudden they ban it now?
Doesn't surprise me that the dipshits at IO Inc had a hand in this.
So the 5.45 pistol was approved for importation and use in November 2011 but all of the sudden they ban it now?
A pistol which apparently never made it into the US. The bit I'm not able to understand is how they can call the FB gun commercially available if it was NEVER commercially available.
"concluded that the ammunition could be used in a commercially available handgun, the Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S, 5.45x39 caliber semi-automatic pistol, which was approved for importation into the United States in November 2011.".
The irony that my Sig brace equipped pistol is packed with 35 rounds of IMI m855 was ruled just fine puts the R in Rtarded. Next up, m995 will be commercially available to boost the economy.
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The 2011 importation caught me as strange as well, something is clearly fishy here.
A pistol which apparently never made it into the US. The bit I'm not able to understand is how they can call the FB gun commercially available if it was NEVER commercially available.
"concluded that the ammunition could be used in a commercially available handgun, the Fabryka Bronie Radom, Model Onyks 89S, 5.45x39 caliber semi-automatic pistol, which was approved for importation into the United States in November 2011.".
Excellent points. This whole thing stinks of politics, not laws or reality.
Raven Armament
04-08-14, 16:15
Because at the time, 2011, the ATF was not aware of 7N6 ammunition having a steel core. Now that it is/has been made aware, that ammunition is now banned from import in 2014. Not all 5.45 is banned from import, only the 7N6.
Leaveammoforme
04-08-14, 17:23
This message has self destructed. Everyone subscribed to thread got an email alert of its original content.
Because at the time, 2011, the ATF was not aware of 7N6 ammunition having a steel core. Now that it is/has been made aware, that ammunition is now banned from import in 2014. Not all 5.45 is banned from import, only the 7N6.
I personally find it hard to believe the ATF wasn't aware the 7n6 had a soft steel core before last month, although I could be wrong. Why would customs all of the sudden ask them to test the 7n6? The bullet was designed for use in the AK74 assault rifle, not a pistol. Plus it does not have a diameter larger than .22 caliber as is required by the ATF to be a candidate for AP ammunition. It's not hardened steel like the ones used in typical AP ammo, it's a soft steel used for economical reasons rather than performance ones. I guess it doesn't matter, when the ATF wants something, they are going to take it regardless. I guess they are just too powerful.
I personally find it hard to believe the ATF wasn't aware the 7n6 had a soft steel core before last month, although I could be wrong. Why would customs all of the sudden ask them to test the 7n6? The bullet was designed for use in the AK74 assault rifle, not a pistol. Plus it does not have a diameter larger than .22 caliber as is required by the ATF to be a candidate for AP ammunition. It's not hardened steel like the ones used in typical AP ammo, it's a soft steel used for economical reasons rather than performance ones. I guess it doesn't matter, when the ATF wants something, they are going to take it regardless. I guess they are just too powerful.
5.45x39 uses a .220 or .221 diameter bullet depending on what source you cite.
It really doesn't matte how we got here. Congress is so ate up, they can't even exercise oversight over the BATFE. When they attempt to do anything they have meaningless hearings and no one is held accountable. Until Congress starts to do their job and withhold funding and other measures nothing will change.
47 million people wanted Hope and Change and this is part of it.
It really doesn't matte how we got here. Congress is so ate up, they can't even exercise oversight over the BATFE. When they attempt to do anything they have meaningless hearings and no one is held accountable. Until Congress starts to do their job and withhold funding and other measures nothing will change.
47 million people wanted Hope and Change and this is part of it.
Hey Iraqgunz,
I know how knowledgeable you are, which is why I would like to know what your personal opinion is. Do you think the ban will be upheld or overturned? What do you think the likely outcome will be?
My post should be a clear indication of what I think. We are still waiting for answers to Fast and Furious as well as other BATFE debacles. Don't look for Congress to do anything.
On a side note. The world isn't ending. There is plenty of commercial ammo available and will be for the time being.
Hey Iraqgunz,
I know how knowledgeable you are, which is why I would like to know what your personal opinion is. Do you think the ban will be upheld or overturned? What do you think the likely outcome will be?
jroberts1968
04-09-14, 22:36
Rumor has it JBI is also working on a 54r variant of the pistol. I smell a setup.
I smell bullshit!
I own JBI Armory and I can tell I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
This ban was a long time in the works. Very little to do with pistols and a lot to do with big business.
Big business banned, Century is the biggest importer of commercial ammo, they also import the Random line. Win Win for CAI.
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
Raven Armament
04-09-14, 22:49
I smell bullshit!
I own JBI Armory and I can tell I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
This ban was a long time in the works. Very little to do with pistols and a lot to do with big business.
Big business banned, Century is the biggest importer of commercial ammo, they also import the Random line. Win Win for CAI.
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
You've been making 5.45 pistols since at least late 2012.
I don't consider CAI to be "big business" by any means.
Leaveammoforme
04-09-14, 22:50
I smell bullshit!
I own JBI Armory and I can tell I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
This ban was a long time in the works. Very little to do with pistols and a lot to do with big business.
Hey man, I thought you were from Long Beach.
Jokes aside, Glad to hear you speaking up. I was pleased to see ATF point finger at an importer instead of a domestic shop. Your bud was on here defending your honor a week or so ago. Best of luck to your small business.
I smell bullshit!
I own JBI Armory and I can tell I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
Then why on the facebook page during the heat of the anger did JBI Armory say there was a 54R pistol that was in the works? Was it to stir up more anger and its funny I cant find that post now. Thank goodness I took a print screen. Want to lie a little more. That or you enjoyed dumping gas on a already heated subject. You certainly were not the first to build a 5.45x39 pistol, yet to use the excuse that others did it before you does not make you any less responsible. The ATF was looking for any reason to restrict imported ammo and you and other builders gave it too them.
25076
I smell bullshit!
I own JBI Armory and I can tell I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
This ban was a long time in the works. Very little to do with pistols and a lot to do with big business.
Big business banned, Century is the biggest importer of commercial ammo, they also import the Random line. Win Win for CAI.
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html
So if your saying the ATF banned the 7n6 because it's good for CAI, then did CAI get the ATF to ban the 7n6? What's the connection?
This will be interesting!
https://www.change.org/petitions/bureau-of-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-allow-the-importation-of-the-russsian-military-surplus-7n6
Click the link, read, then sign the petition if you feel so compelled.
Thanks
polymorpheous
04-10-14, 01:09
Any gun grabbers reading this thread are laughing their asses off at us.
We are so easily duped into eating our own.
You people blaming the ban on someone building a pistol need to turn in your firearms and be done with it.
Anti American agencies are to blame. Not law abiding business.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
jroberts1968
04-10-14, 06:34
You people blaming the ban on someone building a pistol need to turn in your firearms and be done with it.
Anti American agencies are to blame. Not law abiding business.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
I agree with that, my point being once a SAMPLE is sent to tech then the branch has a pistol. I really should correct myself, I do not know if it is century or not. I do know that a SAMPLE was sent. We could have all the 5.45 pistols we wanted no matter what Tin Foil Hatters say. The ATF does not lurk on YOUTUBE , or the net they are not that big and do not have that many resources.
I just don't like when people assume information and knee jerk react to information. I also want to say for individuals to call a company and threaten lives or property over a surplus round ban makes are culture look worse and worse.
I built a few pistols for a select group of customers, and if that had anything to do with the ban I am sorry.
Jim
jroberts1968
04-10-14, 06:42
So if your saying the ATF banned the 7n6 because it's good for CAI, then did CAI get the ATF to ban the 7n6? What's the connection?
Again I do not know if it is century I apologize for that.
If I import commercial ammo but my sales are being eaten by surplus ammo sales how do I increase sales ? You eliminate the competition. Get the ammo banned by known means. Then you have larger ammo market and a firearm that shoots it.
I really do not know of this is the case hypothesis.
AO94 was also sent to the tech branch for sample and approval for sale as a pistol. This was because of the platform. But even that ban had more to do with slapping china for human rights.
This may be more to do with Putin and the Crimea to. We really will never know.
You people blaming the ban on someone building a pistol need to turn in your firearms and be done with it.
Anti American agencies are to blame. Not law abiding business.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
I agree with you on Anti American agencies were the ones who are the ones directly responsible for the ban, yet any responsible Gun Manufacture would not produce a product that under the law would give cause for the ATF to ban an entire import of cheap surplus ammo. What needed to be done was repeal the law and strip the ATF of their ability to interpret what laws mean what. Yet again until that was able to be done, a responsible gun manufacture would not dare give the ATF the "legal" excuse which is what was done by JBI and others. Give the ATF the chance to strip more from gun owners and people are surprised that it took them this long means nothing, they should have had no reason period to do it in the first place. You don't bite the tigers tail hoping it does not notice and these irresponsible gun manufactures are surprised the ATF used their pistols as the excuse to ban the ammo from import. They are partly to blame, no matter how screwed up our laws are, you DO NOT need to give them anymore excuses to come after gun owners before the BS laws can be repealed. To say that others were doing it before me is a excuse that my kids give me when they get caught doing something stupid. Producing a pistol that gave the ATF the excuse to ban the ammo from import was a stupid move. I am still waiting on JBI to clear up his statement on having no plans to produce a 54R Ak pistol even though the screen capture shows otherwise.
I agree with you on Anti American agencies were the ones who are the ones directly responsible for the ban, yet any responsible Gun Manufacture would not produce a product that under the law would give cause for the ATF to ban an entire import of cheap surplus ammo. What needed to be done was repeal the law and strip the ATF of their ability to interpret what laws mean what. Yet again until that was able to be done, a responsible gun manufacture would not dare give the ATF the "legal" excuse which is what was done by JBI and others. Give the ATF the chance to strip more from gun owners and people are surprised that it took them this long means nothing, they should have had no reason period to do it in the first place. You don't bite the tigers tail hoping it does not notice and these irresponsible gun manufactures are surprised the ATF used their pistols as the excuse to ban the ammo from import. They are partly to blame, no matter how screwed up our laws are, you DO NOT need to give them anymore excuses to come after gun owners before the BS laws can be repealed. To say that others were doing it before me is a excuse that my kids give me when they get caught doing something stupid. Producing a pistol that gave the ATF the excuse to ban the ammo from import was a stupid move. I am still waiting on JBI to clear up his statement on having no plans to produce a 54R Ak pistol even though the screen capture shows otherwise.
Wow, excellent post. You nailed it.
Im not sure why jbi posted what was posted about the 54r pistol, but if what happened to him and his company happened to me I would have said the same thing. Just to piss people off. The people threatening him and blaming him are the reason gun owners are looked down upon.
There is no reason to attack our own community members. Take that energy and direct it where it belongs. Into efforts to repeal all laws restricting our second amendment. Even if the pistol jbi built was directly responsible for the ban he is not to blame.
Everyone blaming jbi needs to pull there head out of there ass.
Leaveammoforme
04-11-14, 00:17
You had a valid point until this statement
Even if the pistol jbi built was directly responsible for the ban he is not to blame.
Manufacturers that stayed away from these 5.45 pistols did it for a reason. Yep, they had your future in mind. Manufacturers that caved to customer request or demand for 5.45 pistols had themselves in mind. They simply handed the ATF a legitimate reason to stop import of 7N6. The lesson will, yet again, not be learned.
black22rifle
04-11-14, 00:25
Have those manufacturers stated that the reason they never built a 5.45 pistol is because they didnt want 7n6 banned?
polymorpheous
04-11-14, 01:06
They simply handed the ATF a legitimate reason to stop import of 7N6. The lesson will, yet again, not be learned.
I'm sorry, did you say legitimate?
Leaveammoforme
04-11-14, 01:14
Have those manufacturers stated that the reason they never built a 5.45 pistol is because they didnt want 7n6 banned?
It is pretty well known, in the firearm industry, why one should have avoided a 5.45 pistol (or even speaking of one). Did they "come out and said it"? Absolutely not!
I can see it now, press conference with [insert manufacturer] saying they will not build a 5.45 pistol because ATF would then ban the AP ammo for the rifle. That would have just fast tracked this situation.
Apparently a lot of consumers didn't even know the law regarding "AP" ammo prior this. I had one guy a few months back hand me 5 rounds of rifle ammo to try out. I looked at it blankly trying to figure out why he thought it was special. He then leaned in and whispered "It's AP". He had removed the paint from the meplats!
Long story short ,manufacturers knew why to avoid 5.45 pistols. The consumers... Not so much.
It was up to manufacturers to keep the public straight but some dropped the ball.
Leaveammoforme
04-11-14, 01:21
I'm sorry, did you say legitimate?
Ah , my arch nemesis regarding this subject. How you been bro?
Law on books ,that has been there for some time now, bans importing "AP" pistol ammo. This law did not pop up last week!
You know this... Silly guy!
Maybe "legitimate" was a strong word but they (ATF) was handed all they needed. We kept the secret hidden from them for a while but the rest is history.
black22rifle
04-11-14, 02:02
It is pretty well known, in the firearm industry, why one should have avoided a 5.45 pistol (or even speaking of one). Did they "come out and said it"? Absolutely not!
I can see it now, press conference with [insert manufacturer] saying they will not build a 5.45 pistol because ATF would then ban the AP ammo for the rifle. That would have just fast tracked this situation.
Apparently a lot of consumers didn't even know the law regarding "AP" ammo prior this. I had one guy a few months back hand me 5 rounds of rifle ammo to try out. I looked at it blankly trying to figure out why he thought it was special. He then leaned in and whispered "It's AP". He had removed the paint from the meplats!
Long story short ,manufacturers knew why to avoid 5.45 pistols. The consumers... Not so much.
It was up to manufacturers to keep the public straight but some dropped the ball.
When I initially read your post I thought it said "manufacturers said they wouldnt make one".
So it boils down to two schools of thought.
The first says don't rile the beast who continually tries to nip, bite, and eviscerate our rights. Lay low and hope your specific use/innovation/ammo stays out of the oppressors sights. (Heard this one a lot concerning the SB15 brace.)
The second says exercise your God given, not state allowed, rights and use the beast's attacks and infringements to rile the citizenry to side with your constitutional challenges.
IMO the first results in more short term liberty, while the beast gains strength; i.e. feeding the crocodile. But the second, while more painful, puts the spotlight on the ugly creature and is the sole, effective method for reining it in.
If the state can get away with banning 7n6 for pistols, they could easily use the same rationale to ban it in "cop killer sniper rifles" when the political winds suit them.
So it boils down to two schools of thought.
The first says don't rile the beast who continually tries to nip, bite, and eviscerate our rights. Lay low and hope your specific use/innovation/ammo stays out of the oppressors sights. (Heard this one a lot concerning the SB15 brace.)
The second says exercise your God given, not state allowed, rights and use the beast's attacks and infringements to rile the citizenry to side with your constitutional challenges.
IMO the first results in more short term liberty, while the beast gains strength; i.e. feeding the crocodile. But the second, while more painful, puts the spotlight on the ugly creature and is the sole, effective method for reining it in.
If the state can get away with banning 7n6 for pistols, they could easily use the same rationale to ban it in "cop killer sniper rifles" when the political winds suit them.
EXACTLY! IMO blaming the manufacturers for this is the same as siding with the ATF's ridiculous infringements on our God given rights.
Leaveammoforme
04-11-14, 12:45
If the state can get away with banning 7n6 for pistols, they could easily use the same rationale to ban it in "cop killer sniper rifles" when the political winds suit them.
I like your analogy & there is truth to it. However, a new law would be required to fulfill your ending statement (provided some knuckle head doesn't make a handgun to chamber the round) Now, just name one case where a 338 Lapua, 408 Cheytac , 416 Barrett or 50 BMG has been used in a domestic crime.
Agreed. But new laws breed in DC like cockroaches. Since ARs are used in a minuscule percentage of crimes and still the central focus of the grabbers, I can easily imagine a campaign to ban your large calibers as "human target sniper rounds."
What's amazing to me is that the 5.45 pistol that got the 7n6 banned was never imported into the US. Only 200 units were made and not one entered the US (according to Tim from the military arms channel). So now all they have to do is find a 7.62x54R pistol somewhere in the world to ban importation of that too? This whole thing seems 100% political to me, probably came straight from Washington and is being disguised within the BS letter the ATF posted about customs suddenly asking them to test the 7N6 ammo. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Now the real question is, is anyone going to fight them on this? Is the NRA and GOA et all, going to fight and try to get this overturned? Or is the ATF's statement considered permanent and final?
SeriousStudent
04-11-14, 19:51
Ah , my arch nemesis regarding this subject. How you been bro?
Law on books ,that has been there for some time now, bans importing "AP" pistol ammo. This law did not pop up last week!
You know this... Silly guy!
Maybe "legitimate" was a strong word but they (ATF) was handed all they needed. We kept the secret hidden from them for a while but the rest is history.
DO NOT turn this thread into a personalized pissing contest. Only warning.
polymorpheous
04-11-14, 20:52
So it boils down to two schools of thought.
The first says don't rile the beast who continually tries to nip, bite, and eviscerate our rights. Lay low and hope your specific use/innovation/ammo stays out of the oppressors sights. (Heard this one a lot concerning the SB15 brace.)
The second says exercise your God given, not state allowed, rights and use the beast's attacks and infringements to rile the citizenry to side with your constitutional challenges.
IMO the first results in more short term liberty, while the beast gains strength; i.e. feeding the crocodile. But the second, while more painful, puts the spotlight on the ugly creature and is the sole, effective method for reining it in.
If the state can get away with banning 7n6 for pistols, they could easily use the same rationale to ban it in "cop killer sniper rifles" when the political winds suit them.
Spot on post.
Thank you.
Have those manufacturers stated that the reason they never built a 5.45 pistol is because they didn't want 7n6 banned?
It is a very good reason they stayed clear of it, because the ATF has used that very thing before in banning surplus ammo. Responsible gun manufactures stayed clear of that very nasty topic and for good reason, you can cite either the past actions of the ATF or this latest work by the ATF as solid proof. The goal should have been for us to repeal that stupid import law before irresponsible manufactures like JBI cared more about $$$ then gun owners as a whole. It is a historical fact that actions like this will result in a ban of ammo. People can scream that we should not treat our own this way, yet they still fail to see it is a two way street. If they cared more about gun owners as a whole and less about $$$$, the ATF would have had no excuse to ban surplus 7N6 to begin with. That JBI and others would not have a massive PR mess to deal with from gun owners and hate mail. These irresponsible gun manufactures and their defenders don't like how gun owners are treating them over this mess, maybe they should have thought about how those actions of pure greed has now effected all those gun owners who have depended on the cheap surplus ammo. They should have stayed clear of building a stupid pistol till the law was repealed, quit giving the ATF gimmes for restricting gun ownership.
jroberts1968
04-12-14, 08:47
It is a very good reason they stayed clear of it, because the ATF has used that very thing before in banning surplus ammo. Responsible gun manufactures stayed clear of that very nasty topic and for good reason, you can cite either the past actions of the ATF or this latest work by the ATF as solid proof. The goal should have been for us to repeal that stupid import law before irresponsible manufactures like JBI cared more about $$$ then gun owners as a whole. It is a historical fact that actions like this will result in a ban of ammo. People can scream that we should not treat our own this way, yet they still fail to see it is a two way street. If they cared more about gun owners as a whole and less about $$$$, the ATF would have had no excuse to ban surplus 7N6 to begin with. That JBI and others would not have a massive PR mess to deal with from gun owners and hate mail. These irresponsible gun manufactures and their defenders don't like how gun owners are treating them over this mess, maybe they should have thought about how those actions of pure greed has now effected all those gun owners who have depended on the cheap surplus ammo. They should have stayed clear of building a stupid pistol till the law was repealed, quit giving the ATF gimmes for restricting gun ownership.
Your emotional position is understandable but the only time a ban is enacted like this is when a sample is submitted and a firearm is logged that's it. Oly had to submit the 94 for approval it had to meet length weight and the pistol tube had to be approved. Even that was a ban created by large gun manufacturers to stop Chinese knockoffs from entering the country. It was Clinton's way of smacking the Chinese around for human rights violations, yes it got a double dip by hitting the gun community. This ban like the 94 are politically motivated. if we can not see this we are just lost in the fog.
There have been 54r pistols around longer then 5.45 pistols so we're is the ban on that ammo. The reason tech has not received a SAMPLE. The sample is what got this ball rolling.
Jim
polymorpheous
04-12-14, 11:39
Hey, let's all keep pointing our fingers at JBI.
Even though the BATFE explicitly named Radom of Poland.
Hey, let's all keep pointing our fingers at JBI.
Even though the BATFE explicitly named Radom of Poland.
This is the funny thing all these people blaming jbi obviously dont have a brain cell left. The atf stated what the reason for the ban was and jbi was not named. It was radom of poland.
Everbody blaming jbi just proves the fact that they are illiterate and more than likely should not own firearms themselves.
Its time that we stand up and let our elected officials know we will not take this lying down.
This thread gives me little hope for the gun community. If it were not for polymorpheus, uffdaphill, ffusaf3 and a few others I would have no hope at all. I guess common sense and reading comprehension is something a large part of the community is lacking.
jroberts1968
04-12-14, 20:14
When some one send me a message via FB w/fake account (DICK Smackum) then I replied in kind. It was a mistake in looking back. I can say I have zero plans for a 54r pistol.
I will be building a 105 version though.
Jim
What I don't understand is if they want to ban the 7n6 to prevent it from being used in pistols then why not just make it illegal to use the 7n6 in pistols rather than ban it all together? If they don't have a problem with it being used in rifles then why ban it for rifles? It's not logical, doesn't make any sense. But I guess these are just surface level formalities and technicalities that are really just a costume for their ultimate plan, total disarmament. Whether it's controlling and eliminating guns, and or ammunition. They do it drip by drip, so each drip doesn't make a big stir. I mean have you seen one single news story on the banning of 7n6 on the news? I haven't. I can't believe this is happening and they are getting away with it. It's like watching a horrific car crash in slow motion.
Hey, let's all keep pointing our fingers at JBI.
Even though the BATFE explicitly named Radom of Poland.
Because they are still part of that select group irresponsible gun manufacturers that decided to build a 5.45x39 pistol that history has proven as 100% fact will cause the ATF to ban even more surplus ammo. That your defense for them is that it wasn't their pistol, it doesn't matter if it was there pistol or not. That the excuse was because others had built them before them that somehow made it alright to play the game of chicken with the ATF, hoping they don't notice or use it as an excuse to screw over gun owners. That is something a child would use as an excuse " well others are doing it too" It does not make them any less guilty. every single company that has produced this pistol is responsible, you don't play chicken with the ATF. We need to strip the ATF of their powers, company's like JBI need to stop giving the ATF free gimmies. It is bad enough we have a tyrant in the White house out to get guns owners at every turn. Lets repeal these horrible laws first before we screw ourselves even more with unnessary problems that could be avoided.
I need to finish my 762x54R AR pistol. Then the circle will be complete.
Several congressman have responded to the ATF with this letter I found on the NRA-ILA's website. Here is the link:
http://www.nraila.org/media/12138422/letter_to_b__todd_jones__-_4-9-2014.pdf
Rumor has it JBI is also working on a 54r variant of the pistol. I smell a setup.
Afraid those have been around for a while, at least in a crude format.
Pains my heart to see a rifle bastardized like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7_7.62-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1891_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0.jpg
Would probably pain my wrist to fire it, too.
Afraid those have been around for a while, at least in a crude format.
Pains my heart to see a rifle bastardized like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7_7.62-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%86%D0%B0_1891_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0.jpg
Would probably pain my wrist to fire it, too.
:confused: Ugly as sin.
:confused: Ugly as sin.
Agreed in full. Ran across it on the main Wikipedia Mosin-Nagant article in the list of variants:
Obrez: The sawed-off rifle. During the Russian Revolution and subsequent civil war, revolutionaries, various irregular forces and common criminals cut down the Mosin Nagant rifles to pistol size for easy concealment. Most of these rifle-caliber pistols did not have sights, being crudely made. After the Revolution, the numbers of Obrez bolt action pistols decreased as the Bolsheviks took over the imperial arsenals and gained access to stocks of Model 1895 Nagant revolvers. This unofficial Mosin variant is perhaps the rarest Mosin of them all. Obrez pistols are highly prized by collectors.
I'm a huge fan of that caliber, and to see that done to a historic firearm (I don't care how long ago it was done) just makes me cringe. Yes - a piece of history, and necessity is often said to be the M-F'er of invention, but I can't deny my gut feeling.
BTW: Registered here when I heard about the original topic of the thread and happened across this one. Hi, y'all! :)
Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.
Examples:
1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number lifted to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught.
The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR.
2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39
The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import
3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.
The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.
4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.
The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.
5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.
The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. Why does an Izhmash 8 round shotgun mag cost so much? Think about it?
6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.
The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.
7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.
The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.
In every one of these cases, people stirred the shit pot doing unethical, stupid, or unprofessional activity and gave the ATF an excuse to ban something. I have provided 7 high profile examples of this from the past 20 years.
We are not on the same level of pedestal as the ATF. They hold all the power. Some of our people think they are engaged in a “gentleman’s discourse” with the ATF. We are not.
They don’t care. They don’t have to answer to us. It is their job to “find” things or activity to ban. That is how they justify their jobs and authority.
Some people just cannot grasp this. Some people defend idiot gun owners and manufactures to the death, even if it means putting our rights in jeopardy. Even if it means losing our rights to prove some theoretical political point.
Some people just don’t have the smarts to lay low or not attract unwanted attention.
People that stir the shit with the ATF are not a friend to our gun rights. They are not any different than neo-nazis at a gun show with the news TV station camera on them. They are not helping our cause. They are not any different than some idiot who leaves a gun in his car unattended; then that gun is stolen and used in a murder. Sons of Guns is not on our side. They are the fat of the gun world; and they need to be trimmed.
Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.
Examples:
1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number lifted to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught.
The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR.
2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39
The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import
3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.
The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.
4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.
The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.
5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.
The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. Why does an Izhmash 8 round shotgun mag cost so much? Think about it?
6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.
The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.
7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.
The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.
In every one of these cases, people stirred the shit pot doing unethical, stupid, or unprofessional activity and gave the ATF an excuse to ban something. I have provided 7 high profile examples of this from the past 20 years.
We are not on the same level of pedestal as the ATF. They hold all the power. Some of our people think they are engaged in a “gentleman’s discourse” with the ATF. We are not.
They don’t care. They don’t have to answer to us. It is their job to “find” things or activity to ban. That is how they justify their jobs and authority.
Some people just cannot grasp this. Some people defend idiot gun owners and manufactures to the death, even if it means putting our rights in jeopardy. Even if it means losing our rights to prove some theoretical political point.
Some people just don’t have the smarts to lay low or not attract unwanted attention.
People that stir the shit with the ATF are not a friend to our gun rights. They are not any different than neo-nazis at a gun show with the news TV station camera on them. They are not helping our cause. They are not any different than some idiot who leaves a gun in his car unattended; then that gun is stolen and used in a murder. Sons of Guns is not on our side. They are the fat of the gun world; and they need to be trimmed.
You sir hit that nail squarely on the head. Couldn't of said that any better, wow.
The truth hurts when this comes to light! Dead on!
If Russia invades Ukraine I would expect more Russian goods will be sanctioned. This could be the tip of the iceberg.
I was reading an article on The Military Arms Channel website, thebangswitch.com, and they said a 7.62x54R pistol already exists in the US - and they posted a link to it (a company called Black Horse Arsenal). You know if they went after the 7N6, and the fact that our president just requested over a billion dollars for more gun control, they are going to go after it. I mean they banned the 7N6 based on a "pistol" that was never even imported into the US in the first place, imagine what they will do with one already here. This just keeps getting worse and worse, horrible. If Congress falls to the Democrats this November, and all three branches are Democrat controlled especially with a lame duck President with no re-election to worry about, they will go all out on the 2nd Amendment with nobody to stop them. Anyway, here is the link about the pistol from the MAC website if you want to check it out:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/foghorn/will-bhas-new-7-62x54r-pistol-mean-the-end-of-7-62x54r-ammo-imports/
https://www.thebangswitch.com/bye-bye-7n6/
http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/567x437x1553444_413576502109448_1217532470_o-900x694.jpg.pagespeed.ic.l3-vjaPM12.webp
You're being over-dramatic. Gun people shooting themselves in the foot. Now that's just crazy talk.
Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.
Examples:
1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number lifted to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught.
The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR.
2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39
The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import
3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.
The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.
4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.
The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.
5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.
The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. Why does an Izhmash 8 round shotgun mag cost so much? Think about it?
6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.
The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.
7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.
The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.
In every one of these cases, people stirred the shit pot doing unethical, stupid, or unprofessional activity and gave the ATF an excuse to ban something. I have provided 7 high profile examples of this from the past 20 years.
We are not on the same level of pedestal as the ATF. They hold all the power. Some of our people think they are engaged in a “gentleman’s discourse” with the ATF. We are not.
They don’t care. They don’t have to answer to us. It is their job to “find” things or activity to ban. That is how they justify their jobs and authority.
Some people just cannot grasp this. Some people defend idiot gun owners and manufactures to the death, even if it means putting our rights in jeopardy. Even if it means losing our rights to prove some theoretical political point.
Some people just don’t have the smarts to lay low or not attract unwanted attention.
People that stir the shit with the ATF are not a friend to our gun rights. They are not any different than neo-nazis at a gun show with the news TV station camera on them. They are not helping our cause. They are not any different than some idiot who leaves a gun in his car unattended; then that gun is stolen and used in a murder. Sons of Guns is not on our side. They are the fat of the gun world; and they need to be trimmed.
I'm a huge fan of that caliber, and to see that done to a historic firearm (I don't care how long ago it was done) just makes me cringe. Yes - a piece of history, and necessity is often said to be the M-F'er of invention, but I can't deny my gut feeling.
That particular gun is only worth anything because it was modified into an Obrez. If it wasn't cut, it would just be another $100 M91.
Ned Christiansen
04-14-14, 08:06
Cane55's post with this letter:
http://www.nraila.org/media/12138422...-_4-9-2014.pdf
....awesome. Guys, make sure you read this. We need to thank these guys and encourage other politicos to think this way.
If "nobuddy sez nuthin'", the sky's the limit as to what we let them take from us.
Moose-Knuckle
04-14-14, 13:23
30 March 2011
During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, "to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda," she said.
"I just want you to know that we are working on it," Brady recalled the president telling them. "We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/14/national-rifle-association/barack-obama-coming-after-guns-under-radar-nra-say/
09 April 2014
Obama Requests $1.1 Billion for Gun Control
According to The Washington Beacon, Obama's $1.1 billion "[includes] $182 million to support the president's 'Now is the Time' gun safety initiative."
"Now is the Time" includes the following:
1. Require background checks for all gun sales.
2. Strengthen the background check system for gun sales.
3. Pass a new, stronger ban on assault weapons.
4. Limit ammunition magazines to 10 rounds.
5. Finish the job of getting armor-piercing bullets off the streets
6. Give law enforcement additional tools to prevent and prosecute gun crime
7. End the freeze on gun violence research
8. Make our schools safer with new resource officers and counselors, better emergency response plans, and more nurturing school climates.
9. Ensure quality coverage of mental health treatment, particularly for young people.
http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/04/09/obama-requests-11-billion-gun-control
That particular gun is only worth anything because it was modified into an Obrez. If it wasn't cut, it would just be another $100 M91.
Again, a tool created out of necessity, but I sure as Hell wouldn't want to be holding that thing when the trigger is pulled, would you?
Ouroborous
04-15-14, 22:34
http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplus/2160-round-crate-545x39-russian-military-surplus-7n6-52-grain-fmj-ammo
[SIZE=4]Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.
Examples:
1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number lifted to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught.
The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR.
2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39
The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import
3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.
The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.
4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.
The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.
5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.
The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. Why does an Izhmash 8 round shotgun mag cost so much? Think about it?
6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.
The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.
7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.
The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.
All of the above sounds to me like we need to get Congress to curtail the power of the ATF so they can't just ban whatever they want whenever they want because they want to. WTF do we allow some agency to get away with unlimited power?
All of the above sounds to me like we need to get Congress to curtail the power of the ATF so they can't just ban whatever they want whenever they want because they want to. WTF do we allow some agency to get away with unlimited power?
Not to mention their disgusting shennanigans. The gun running, the mentally disabled people they entrapped. And the purchasing scandal with the cigarettes that went missing/unaccounted for. Talk about a shit hole agency completely OUT of control.
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