DMR clone...Larue Stealth or LMT MRP

[jhs1969]

I was talking with my wife today about waiting for either the ACR or SCAR and I asked about a third option. A DMR 'like' rifle to gain max accuracy. It would be my third AR and would be more compatible in operation and with spares etc. The two that came to mind were the Larue Stealth upper in 20" or a LMT MRP with stainless barrel in 20". Anyone have any thoughts on this comparison?

I would probably mount it on a lower with an A2 stock and A2 pistol grip. I've used both for many years and am comfortable with them. I would definitely go with a match trigger. As much as I like LMT I'm guessing I would go with their lower. Again any suggestions?

Optics, I initially thougt of an ACOG, like the A2 stock and grip it would be keeping close with the issued DMR's. However if I go with a 75 or 77gr bullet will the BDC in the ACOG do the job or should I skip the ACOG and go with a Leupold Tactical of some sort?

I've not made any decisions yet, just weighing options. The DMR route makes sense in many ways, we already have two M4's and a third AR would fit right in. If we find ourselves up against another AWB with a short supply of ACR's and SCAR's I think my decision would be made for me. Okay I'll shut up and see what people think.

[David Thomas]

Why not go with this if you are considering something with a barrel over 16" ?

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=u18vis556&cat=57&page=1&search=&since=&status=

[TheActivePatriot]

77-75gr bullets out of a 20" flattop rifle should match the BDC on ACOGs calibrated for M855 out of an M4. The TA01NSN would be a good choice, as would the TA31-F if you prefer the day-illuminated reticle.

[Razorhunter]

This is a great project you have going, with good options listed thus far.
I personally just purchased an LMT MRP after much thought, and I absolutely love it.
What I like about the MRP system, is the easy caliber change, which gives me a 6.8 gun anytime I want it. I had wanted to own a 6.8 weapon for sometime, but most of the choices were so far from a Milspec weapon, I just couldn't bring myself to buy any of them.
I went with the MRP, and purchased a 5.56 bbl, AND a 6.8 bbl. I already had the 5.56 mags, and I simply bought a few of PRI's new 25 rd. "waffle" mags. I absolutely LOVE these mags. This new "waffle" design is totally 100% reliable, and when you hold one of these mags in your hand it just feels like quality. I wasn't TOO big on the cosmetics of the new "waffle" design, but when you actually see them in person, that all changes. They are totally sweet. Not to mention the fact that when they are loaded into your lower, much of the waffling is concealed within the AR magwell. Of course, looks are not everything anyway. They really do look great though. Magpul followers, and Magpul is soon coming out with their new GEN III followers w/ TEFLON additive. If you haven't tried these new teflon followers, you really should. At $1 and change a piece, you can't go wrong, and they really are SUPER SMOOTH.
Enough rambling. Back to the Multi-Caliber MRP. I absolutely love this gun. It's got a pinned gas block, and the LMT lower has a 2 stage trigger that is really nice, and would be perfect for your DMR project. I really was not expecting to like the LMT 2 stage trigger that much, but I tell you, it is great, and it improves accuracy, and I hear it's much better quality than those RRA's triggers.
I don't know if the VLTOR VIS has QD swivel cups, but the LMT MRP rail does, which, IMHO, is a NECESSITY. Some might not consider this a "dealbreaker" or "dealmaker", but WHY Free Float a bbl if you are going to constantly apply pressure to it by attaching a sling to it and constantly slinging it around with the weight of the rifle pulling on your bbl, which in turn pulls on your upper receiver? I mean, if this was a Colt 6920, which has the sling attached to the bbl, my opinion would be different, as a fighting carbine sees no ill affect from a sling.
However, a DMR rifle should have all the accuracy it can get, and therefore it's best to attach your sling to the rail, as with the MRP sling swivel cups. I think Noveskes "SWS" rails that he has made up, also has the swivel cups. Again, I do not know if the VLTOR VIS has this feature or not.
One other nice little feature about the MRP, is the fact that the last notch or two in the rail, will support use of KAC's rail panels. Basically, you have to have the very end section of your rail, properly machined to allow the KAC rail panels "clip" to attach to. This is a minute feature built into the rail, which you would never notice if you did not know it was there. It can be hard to see, so I'm not sure what rails on todays market have this feature or not??
LMT had previously designed a 7.62x39 bbl for the MRP, but they had to put the project on hold, due to lack of magazines. Ryan at LMT was just today, telling me that they actually have the bbls AND bolts sitting on the table, ready to be sold, but they are on hold, and are not selling the bbls at this time.
I just informed him of CPRODUCTS new 7.62x39 AK mags hitting the market back at the first of this month, and he said he is going to bring this to the attention of his superiors at LMT. It would be nice to add another caliber to the MRP's capability.
I think Spikes Tactical is doing a .22conversion kit for MRP owners, which will incorporate a .22 bbl for the MRP, and mags/mag adaptors. They've already done this type of project many times over, with other platforms, so they are definitely not new to this .22 project game.
I realize you only asked about DMR rifle setup, so my apologies for ranting on about everything MRP.
I just love this MRP, and thought I'd tell you about some of the more detailed features of the gun, which really tend to make the MRP a nice setup.
I am personally planning on having VERY high quality precision bbl custom made for my MRP, which will shoot as tight a groups as you could possibly want.
MRP bbls are very easy to machine if the right person is doing it. Nothing to it really. I am stricly doing this, in order to see how tight of groups truly can be had out of an 18" 5.56 or 6.8, so don't get me wrong here. LMT's SS MRP bbls are no slouches, and they shoot WELL. Possibly better than I do. (Would have to check), but we all know what a Bartlein, Douglas, Llija, Obermeyer, etc can do.
The other cool thing, is if you want a black "stealth" finish on your SS bbls, many places are offering an IonBond DLC (Diamond Like Coating) on them for a mere $50 or so. Cerakote is the same price, and very durable too. VERY durable.
Anyhow, sorry to ramble on.
My personal vote is for the LMT MRP, and I would have to say that the biggest reason(s) would be the following, in short:

1. Multicaliber Use (A Milspec-like 6.8 weapon platform, which most other 6.8s are not) *Some say there is no real Specifications "list" for a Milspec 6.8, but if you consider the Milspec features on a true Milspec M4, then you apply as much of that as you can to a 6.8 AR (or any other AR for that matter), and you have your results to consider when making a purchase.

2. Monolithic Rail -very solid, which provides much less upper receiver flex, and just provides an overall solid platform for a precision DMR type weapon.

3. Includes PINNED low pro gas block from the start, which is what a DMR is going to need

4. Built-In QD Swivel Cups. Keeps all pressure OFF of your Free Floated bbl.

5. LMTs' TOP Notch Customer Service. Compare LMT's FRIENDLY, Courteous, CS Reps to "other" reps working in this industry ( I won't mention names, but think "Kool-Aid")

Before I'm done here, I will say HOWEVER, that the Noveske is a very nice piece of weapon too. It's just that many of his products are so dang expensive, that they are almost un-reachable to a lot of guys.
I mean, how many guys can spend $3300 on an AR10? Or $1800 on an upper alone? I'm not bashing here at all. Just noting the facts of life here.
Noveske sells QUALITY stuff, and I surely would like to own a Noveske gun or two, but you get the point.

Anyhow, best of luck with your DMR project, and keep us posted bro.

[jhs1969]

Why not go with this if you are considering something with a barrel over 16" ?

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=u18vis556&cat=57&page=1&search=&since=&status=

This is interesting, but I think at this time I would prefer to stay with a 20". I have read a few reviews on the Stealth and the MRP, but am unfamilar with most of Noveske's products.


77-75gr bullets out of a 20" flattop rifle should match the BDC on ACOGs calibrated for M855 out of an M4. The TA01NSN would be a good choice, as would the TA31-F if you prefer the day-illuminated reticle.

This is great news and makes sense as the Army issues ACOG's on their DMRs. Just curious if a tactical scope of some kind would give more precision/greater range. Although I think an ACOG would be much easier in use. Am I thinking along the right lines?


Paul Cataldo

Thanks for your reply, I too love LMT's products. I have never seen the MRP applied in a DMR role but would guess that the 20" stainless barrel would fit the bill. The reviews I've seen with the 16" MRP showed great accuracy potential so I assumed the 20" ss would be an improvement. I've not made any decisions yet but it is basically coming down to a DMR or the new ACR/SCAR. I already have 2 M4s so I don't know if I want to put a third CQB carbine at the top of my list right now, especially if another AWB is in the future. Even if I were to get a ACR/SCAR I cringe at the loss of any spares or support for a new design.

Of course LMT's piston MRP is an option too, right?

Damn, here I go again. I need an agent to handle my money, I just can't afford one:D

[Razorhunter]

jhs,
Just so you know, most "SPR"s, including the REAL Mil. issue SPRs, have an 18" bbl.
The 18" bbl offers great performance, and is all you will likely need. Anyhow, LMT does not make 20" MRP bbls. You could have one custom made very easily, and honestly I am personally going to have an 18" custom made bbl myself eventually. It's super easy, with just a couple mods to the bbl extension area.
In all honesty, I think you would be happier with an 18" 5.56 SPR, anyhow.
As stated, LMT offers an 18" SS bbl in both 5.56 and 6.8 I think, and those are PERFECT SPR/DMR bbls. They are excellent quality, readily available, and very affordable once you have an MRP platform.
It's all your decision though. Do a little research on SPRs, both REAL Mil guns, as well as SPR clones, and I think you'll find most are based on an 18" bbl.
Could be wrong though.

[ra2bach]

jhs,
Just so you know, most "SPR"s, including the REAL Mil. issue SPRs, have an 18" bbl.
The 18" bbl offers great performance, and is all you will likely need. Anyhow, LMT does not make 20" MRP bbls. You could have one custom made very easily, and honestly I am personally going to have an 18" custom made bbl myself eventually. It's super easy, with just a couple mods to the bbl extension area.
In all honesty, I think you would be happier with an 18" 5.56 SPR, anyhow.
As stated, LMT offers an 18" SS bbl in both 5.56 and 6.8 I think, and those are PERFECT SPR/DMR bbls. They are excellent quality, readily available, and very affordable once you have an MRP platform.
It's all your decision though. Do a little research on SPRs, both REAL Mil guns, as well as SPR clones, and I think you'll find most are based on an 18" bbl.
Could be wrong though.

the original post asked about a DMR, not SPR.

So, OK, I admit it. I don't know the difference and asked before (in the V-Tac thread), what separates the different configurations - SPR, DMR, Recce, etc.? I understand the designations are SPR = Special Purpose Rifle and DMR = Designated Marksman, Rifle leading me to believe this is the "squad" level sniper. am I wrong?

is there any firm description based on barrel length or any other factor?

not that it makes much difference but it does make one curious...

[David Thomas]

This is interesting, but I think at this time I would prefer to stay with a 20". I have read a few reviews on the Stealth and the MRP, but am unfamilar with most of Noveske's products.



Buy whatever you want, but do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with Noveske's products and the Vltor VIS.

Read these posts for a starting point:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=10551&highlight=Noveske

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=220&highlight=Noveske

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14446&highlight=Noveske

[militarymoron]

A DMR 'like' rifle to gain max accuracy.

just MHO, but i think having a dedicated upper is the way to go, instead of the MRP. if you're looking for 'max accuracy', then you want to minimize changing barrels, optics etc, and just leave them as-is. don't get me wrong, i think an MRP will be accurate enough, but there will always be the variability of barrel swapping and optic swapping thrown into the mix. it just adds another variable, and if you're looking for 'max accuracy', you want to minimize them.
so, if you're not going to be swapping out stuff, then it's a waste of the MRP platform. i'd pick the LaRue stealth over the MRP for a dedicated 'precision' upper, or any other quality brand like noveske etc.

[dSmith.45]

Not sure you really "need" the Steath upper or a MRP to get an accurate rifle. Sure they are nice to have but if you're purchasing a complete, ready to run upper from one of the quality builders they will check over any base upper receiver they use.

Last September I purchased a DMR upper from ADCO. It uses a standard CMT upper receiver, Wilson DMR barrel and on my request a DD lite rail instead of the regular DD AMU rail. This rifle is very accurate with Blackhills 68 grain and 77 grain loadings as well as Hornady 75 grain TAP. I have a Meopta 1.5-6 scope on it instead of a ACOG and a A1 length stock instead of A2. It has good balance but feels like a different kind of weapon than my 16" mid-length. If I read between the lines correctly that's what you're really looking for.

Here's a pic.

http://myweb.cableone.net/dSmith-45/GT-ADCO_SDM.jpg

[jhs1969]

jhs,
Just so you know, most "SPR"s, including the REAL Mil. issue SPRs, have an 18" bbl.
The 18" bbl offers great performance, and is all you will likely need. Anyhow, LMT does not make 20" MRP bbls. You could have one custom made very easily, and honestly I am personally going to have an 18" custom made bbl myself eventually. It's super easy, with just a couple mods to the bbl extension area.
In all honesty, I think you would be happier with an 18" 5.56 SPR, anyhow.
As stated, LMT offers an 18" SS bbl in both 5.56 and 6.8 I think, and those are PERFECT SPR/DMR bbls. They are excellent quality, readily available, and very affordable once you have an MRP platform.
It's all your decision though. Do a little research on SPRs, both REAL Mil guns, as well as SPR clones, and I think you'll find most are based on an 18" bbl.
Could be wrong though.


Yeah, after doing a little searching last night with my wife I discovered LMT's MRP ss bbl is 18".


Buy whatever you want, but do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with Noveske's products and the Vltor VIS.

Read these posts for a starting point:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....hlight=Noveske

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....hlight=Noveske

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....hlight=Noveske

Thanks for the links, I will be doing a little more research into Noveske but for now I know (or at least have read) more about the Stealth and MRP. It does seem that Noveske is a little pricey. One of your links to Noveske barrels from Grant had a very attractive 18" SPR. Thanks again, I guess I have more research to do than I first thought.



just MHO, but i think having a dedicated upper is the way to go, instead of the MRP. if you're looking for 'max accuracy', then you want to minimize changing barrels, optics etc, and just leave them as-is. don't get me wrong, i think an MRP will be accurate enough, but there will always be the variability of barrel swapping and optic swapping thrown into the mix. it just adds another variable, and if you're looking for 'max accuracy', you want to minimize them.
so, if you're not going to be swapping out stuff, then it's a waste of the MRP platform. i'd pick the LaRue stealth over the MRP for a dedicated 'precision' upper, or any other quality brand like noveske etc.

This is a very good point, I don't plan on swapping barrels, I already have two 16" M4 platforms. The only reasons for the MRP are to free float the barrel in the most simple way (at least in my tiny little mind:) ). The only barrel swaps I could think of would be for maintenance or replacing a worn barrel. And I just like LMT's products.

In looking at Larue's products the Stealth may indeed fit my desires more than anything else thus far. I just am not ready to throw in the towel on the MRP just yet.


Not sure you really "need" the Steath upper or a MRP to get an accurate rifle. Sure they are nice to have but if you're purchasing a complete, ready to run upper from one of the quality builders they will check over any base upper receiver they use.

Last September I purchased a DMR upper from ADCO. It uses a standard CMT upper receiver, Wilson DMR barrel and on my request a DD lite rail instead of the regular DD AMU rail. This rifle is very accurate with Blackhills 68 grain and 77 grain loadings as well as Hornady 75 grain TAP. I have a Meopta 1.5-6 scope on it instead of a ACOG and a A1 length stock instead of A2. It has good balance but feels like a different kind of weapon than my 16" mid-length. If I read between the lines correctly that's what you're really looking for.

Here's a pic.



This is close to what I had in mind. If we do decide to go the DMR/SPR route I would probably start out with a lower and add the upper and optics later (as time and $ permits)

I like the thought of a LMT lower with fixed A2 stock and a match trigger. The only other optionial stock I can think of is Magpul's fixed stock with adjustable butt plate. (sorry I don't know the name of this stock). Any opinions on this lower set up? Any suggetions as to other brands? I don't want a big jump in price just to have a certain 'name' on a lower.

What about optics? I am more familiar with the ACOG and think it may be a more simple set up but I have a feeling that a tactical scope would probably give better precision. If going with an ACOG would I have to stay with a 20" to keep the BDC calibrated?

Thanks again for the replies.

[Razorhunter]

An ACOG would not be considered an ideal optic for an SPR, ahhemm, I mean, DMR weapon, IMO.

As for the MRP, just for the record, I own an MRP NOT because I want to constantly swap bbls around all the time.
I chose an MRP, just as anyone would choose a VLTOR VIS. Only difference is I didn't pay the Noveske upper price.
I like the solid one piece upper, and I love to be able to have the OPTION of setting up a 5.56 OR a 6.8 gun when I want.
I do not use an MRP to swap bbls in 30 seconds, and then suddenly start shooting a different caliber in no time flat (although it would be quite possible.)
I wanted to own a 6.8 gun, but didn't want to buy a POS weapon that wasn't close to being a Milspec weapon (almost every other 6.8 out there)
For me personally, my midlength 16" MRP with an ACOG/Aimpoint is plenty accurate out to 400yds or more. Throw a 10x scope on it, and it's all the more better.
If somehow I were to need even MORE range/accuracy out of my weapon, I'm picking up an AR10 or a bolt gun...

[ra2bach]

An ACOG would not be considered an ideal optic for an SPR, ahhemm, I mean, DMR weapon, IMO.
look, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. I am simply asking if there are any significant differences between a gun described as an SPR and a DMR. or are the two terms commonly used to describe the same thing???

[jhs1969]

look, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. I am simply asking if there are any significant differences between a gun described as an SPR and a DMR. or are the two terms commonly used to describe the same thing???


From the research I've been doing over past few days I 'assume' now, that the SPR is mostly found with an 18" barrel and the DMR with a 20", is this correct?:confused:



Paul Cataldo An ACOG would not be considered an ideal optic for an SPR, ahhemm, I mean, DMR weapon, IMO.

As for the MRP, just for the record, I own an MRP NOT because I want to constantly swap bbls around all the time.
I chose an MRP, just as anyone would choose a VLTOR VIS. Only difference is I didn't pay the Noveske upper price.
I like the solid one piece upper, and I love to be able to have the OPTION of setting up a 5.56 OR a 6.8 gun when I want.
I do not use an MRP to swap bbls in 30 seconds, and then suddenly start shooting a different caliber in no time flat (although it would be quite possible.)
I wanted to own a 6.8 gun, but didn't want to buy a POS weapon that wasn't close to being a Milspec weapon (almost every other 6.8 out there)
For me personally, my midlength 16" MRP with an ACOG/Aimpoint is plenty accurate out to 400yds or more. Throw a 10x scope on it, and it's all the more better.
If somehow I were to need even MORE range/accuracy out of my weapon, I'm picking up an AR10 or a bolt gun...

Paul, I've reread a couple of reviews on the Stealth and MRP yesterday. The Stealth was a 16" version, before the 18" and 20" barrels were available. In comparing the two, the MRP had noticeably better accuracy. I'm now gaining more intrest in the MRP at this point (again I like my LMT and may be a bit biased). If I go with an 18" ss MRP would you recommend the CQB or the Rifle length MRP? (I hope my terminology is correct) Part of the appeal of the MRP is being able to replace a worn barrel or simply changing the barrel to meet the need at hand. I'm curious if the 18" barrel would be an odd match for the CQB (short) MRP. I feel a little strange turning the MRP into a SPR but if it has the accuracy then why not? Right?

[Razorhunter]

I've only got a second before I leave to go to BLADE 08, but for your purposes, I would go with the rifle length MRP. It just looks better with the 18" bbls.
For 16" and shorter bbls, the CQB MRP is better looking IMO, and you can only shoot the shorter bbls under 16", with the CQB MRP.
LMT's MRP bbls are considered to be of higher quality (some have said LMT is using Mike Rock bbls), then other standard AR's are using.
LMT wouldn't tell me over the phone, but I know they are more accurate than many other bbls out there.

[jhs1969]

I've only got a second before I leave to go to BLADE 08, but for your purposes, I would go with the rifle length MRP. It just looks better with the 18" bbls.
For 16" and shorter bbls, the CQB MRP is better looking IMO, and you can only shoot the shorter bbls under 16", with the CQB MRP.
LMT's MRP bbls are considered to be of higher quality (some have said LMT is using Mike Rock bbls), then other standard AR's are using.
LMT wouldn't tell me over the phone, but I know they are more accurate than many other bbls out there.


10-4 on their barrels, I just read a second review on the MRP. It's accuracy results were so impressive I'm thinking about getting the CQB with a 16" barrel, possibly one in ss and a 'standard' chrome lined 16" as a second barrel. I belive this setup, paired with an ACOG would/should give consistent/accurate hits at 300-400 yrds. Being a 5.56 I belive this should be 'good enough'. I'm strongly leaning toward the MRP now. It will be awhile before this is project is completed but I may go ahead and start planning on a complete lower. Thanks a lot for all the info, it has been a big help.

[thetallengineer]

Can some of the current MRP owners with a 16" or 18" SS barrel mention what size groups they are obtaining?

[Parabellum9x19mm]

another vote for Noveske SPR VIS