View Full Version : Bullpup v. Standard - Shooting Differences
Gutshot John
05-27-08, 20:38
When it comes to bullpup designs like the FS2000 and the Steyr-Aug/MSAR-556 are there m/any differences in how they shoot/feel, especially in regards to recoil/muzzle climb?
I'm left-handed so I've tended to avoid them, but how would one compare shooting a bullpup vs. a standard rifle?
When it comes to bullpup designs like the FS2000 and the Steyr-Aug/MSAR-556 are there m/any differences in how they shoot/feel, especially in regards to recoil/muzzle climb?
I'm left-handed so I've tended to avoid them, but how would one compare shooting a bullpup vs. a standard rifle?
You either like bullpups or you hate them. I happen to really like them.
I have a Steyr AUG and an FS2000.
I like the fact that I have a gun with a short overall length with a standard sized barrel to get the most out of the 5.56mm's ballistics. The Aug is 28" overall with a 16" barrel and the FS2000 is 29" overall with a 17.5" barrel.
Since the gun's action and magazine is behind the trigger, it puts it closer to your body or center of gravity than a conventional carbine. I find this makes the gun easier and less tiring to hold and use, as I have shot carbine classes with my bullpups as well as ARs, AKs, and an FN Fal. It also seems to make the gun balance better for shooting on the move.
It is kinda hard to compare muzzle jump between these guns and an AR. The AUG has a vertical foregrip and the FS2000's handguard is right in front of the triggerguard and it seems to *me* to be as controllable as an AR.
For a lefty to use an AUG you would need a special lefthanded bolt and to switch the ejection port so it is on the left side. This can be done without tools.
The FS2000 ejects from the front so you can use it ambidextrously.
Of course mag changes are going to be slower with both guns than with the AR--but just about every thing is slower in mag changes than an AR.
As I said, these are personal impressions and different people have different impressions.
To build on what Ed said, the negatives of the bullpup design include *usually* terrible triggers since you have to have a connection from the trigger back to the guts of the rifle.
Advantages are as Ed stated, severly reduced overall length with a "full length" barrel.
Lefties have more serious issues, although like Ed said, the AUG can be adapted to left hand use, but if you ever need to transition to the off shoulder, conventional bullpups leave you s.o.l.
The FN 2000 alleviates that, since it does eject from the front. I haven't actually gotten any trigger time behind one yet, but dry firing several of them, the triggers aren't as bad as the majority of the AUG's I've shot, which typically have horrible triggers. I know that there is now an after market AUG trigger pack that should go a long way towards fixing that.
I don't hate bullpups, hell, I actually really like the concept and the aesthetics of them, it's the execution of the concept that's usually lacking though.
variablebinary
05-28-08, 11:14
In theory, bullpups are great.
So far only the FS2000 has come close to delievery on the promise
Mainly because it doesnt screw left handed shooters, and the trigger doesnt completely suck balls. The trigger isnt great either, but I dont really think most will care for what the gun is.
I think it is more of a fact that the triggers of the individual guns tend to suck.
The selectfire AUG has a very decent trigger in semiauto. I have no idea why the semiauto AUGs have such bad triggers, but they do.
I updated my AUG's trugger with an easy to install product called a triggertamer (http://www,triggertamer.com and it made a huge difference.
The FS2000 trigger is managable, but not as good as an AR.
It has been so long since I put any rounds through a French Famas that I could not tell you how the trigger was. I guess it did not make an impression on me either way.
Like I said, it is a matter of weighing the pluses and minuses and seeing what works best for you overall, as well as what you are most comfortable with.
Gutshot John
05-28-08, 12:59
Marche ou Creve?
Ed,
Can you share your feelings on the FN? Likes, dislikes, pros, cons, reliability, durability, etc.? I would be lying if I didn't admit that I was throwing around the idea of adding a non-AR style rifle and figure I may as well get input on the FN while I'm at it. Thanks.
What can I say, I really like the feel and balance of the FS2000. While it looks bulky it is really well balanced. I've put somewhere around 4000+ rounds through it, including Pat Rogers carbine class. I could write an article on the gun (actually, I think I did--it appeared in SWAT magazine in Nov 2006).
I have found the gun to be pretty reliable. I had a total of two malfunctions in a 3 day/1200+ round Pat Rogers carbine class (one of which I caused by riding the charging handle home when I chambered a round).
Because of the balance I have found this to be the most comfortale longarm to shoot weaksided. You can even shoot it from the right shoulder with just your left hand, and keep all of your rounds on a man sized silhouette at 50 yards.
The FS2000 does not have a last round holdopen for the bolt.
Magazines--if you try to put the wrong type of magazine in the gun the mag will get jammed and be hard to remove. Mags that have been problems are mags with external ridges like Pmags, Orlites or thermolds. These mags have ridges thatt are not present on standard AR-15 mags. 20 round mags may work but will be a bitch to remove.
Best bet for mags for this firearm are standard aluminum or metal mags. Anything with outside profiling causes problems. The thing to remember is that the magwell on the FS2000 is very deep, much deeper than an AR-15. This means that magazines that may fit perfectly in an AR have problems in the FS2000.
SInce the FS2000 does not have drop-free mags, it is very important to push-pull whenever you seat a magazine in the gun. I have found that sometimes you may think the mag is seated but it isn't.
The newer FS2000s (all but the first 200 or so) came with a lighter weight firing pin surrounded by a captive spring. They did this because early FS2000s sometimes slamfired with commercial ammo which had softer primers than milsurp ammo. I found that this was overkill on their part, as many people have had problems with the new FS2000s detonating milsurp ammos with 100% reliability. I had this problem and rectified it by removing the captive spring. After which the gun has fired thousands of rounds of various milsurp with no problem detonating any rounds other than a pair of duds from Radway green. This ammo produced rounds that would not detonate in other firearms, so I attribute it to the ammo.
The biggest functional problem I found with the gun is if not handled correctly it has been known to produce doublefeeds.
The doublefeeds occur almost exclusively when manually racking a round into the chamber but never while firing. I had it happen to me once in Pat Rogers' Carbine class because I rode the bolt forward and it did not go all the way forward because of the drag of my hand on the charging handle. When I racked the charging handle to clear it, I gave myself a doublefeed.
I had one situation in Pat's class where for whatever reason a case did not eject and got caught on the bolt face so that when the action tried to feed another round I got a doublefeed. This required me to pop the gun apart to clear. If it happened with an AR you would have had to peal the case off the boltface. I believe it was with XM193 ammo.
Another time it happens is when a mag is inserted when the bolt is locked back. Sometimes a bump or a jolt to the gun will result in the bolt jumping free and trying to slam shut. But because the the bolt often does not get a good release or encounters additional drag, the bolt does not close all the way and it doesn't fully chamber a round. If you try to resolve the situation by pulling the charging handle back and chambering another round, you will wind up getting a doublefeed with two rounds trying to enter the chamber. The workaround for this is to not insert loaded magazines when the bolt is open. Since the FS2000 does not employ a bolt hold open, this is not an issue when reloading after firing the last round of a mag has been fired. It is more of a range issue when you leave the gun with the bolt locked back for a ceasefire and then insert a magazine when it is time to fire again.
If one should happen to encounter this after inserting a magazine with the bolt open, the correct response is to drop the magazine and rack the charging handle until the round is ejected or falls out.
The workaround for this is to try not to insert a mag when the bolt is back.
The gun absolutely needs an optic. I have an Aimpoint on mine. The factory sights on the FS2000 are specifically labelled by the manufacturer as Back Up Iron Sights for a reason, and I think they were being generous in their definition. If you did try to use the open sights, you would really have to get your face down and it would be an awkward cheekweld. I have noticed that the FS2000's factory front sight post tends to unsrew itself due to firing vibrations and may pop out without your realizing it. If you want to cowitness the iron sights it will want to buy a rear sight that is adjustable for both windage and elevation and locktite the front sight in place.
The FS2000 loves to run wet. Be sure to lube the slide rod (the long rod that has a spring wrapped around it and that protrudes from the bolt carrier assembly).
Other tips, some things in the manual specify clockwise when it should be counterclockwise. I know this is the case with adjusting the factory sights and removing the gas piston.
Removing the gas piston is a whole process that the instruction manual does a poor job describing. If I had a few hours straight to spend writing a description of how to do it, I might be able to pull it off.
With all this bullpup knowledge and experience....Has anyone handled the TAR 21 'Tavor'?
Just wondering how it stacks up against the AUG, FAMAS, FN2000, etc...
Will it ever be marketed here in the U.S.?
The Tavor is one of those guns I am dying to get my hands on.
What can I say, I really like the feel and balance of the FS2000. While it looks bulky it is really well balanced. I've put somewhere around 4000+ rounds through it, including Pat Rogers carbine class. I could write an article on the gun (actually, I think I did--it appeared in SWAT magazine in Nov 2006).
I remember the article. I need to see if I still have that month around.
My next question is, based upon your experience with both the AUG and FN, which would you recommend. This is "ass"uming the internet rumors are true and Steyr does domestically produce an AUG, therefore giving us a choice between the two. Long ago in my younger days, I had an AUG. In one of my dumber moments, which seem to go hand in hand with youth, I let it go not realizing that I would not be able to purchase one again. I remember fondly how it balanced and shot. I don't recall the trigger being that bad either. Maybe time has erased any bad memories.
I let it go not realizing that I would not be able to purchase one again
Belgium FNFAL IMI Galil. A lot of us have done that. Wish I could get those back. That being said I just purchased a 905 series green Aug from Pete.
I have wanted a pre ban Aug for a long time.
My next question is, based upon your experience with both the AUG and FN, which would you recommend.
Wow. I've tried to think of an answer to this question and have not been able to come up with one. :confused:
There are pros and cons to both guns. But I am afraid me saying that doesn't really answer your question. Maybe tomorrow I will have some type of an explanation.
Wow. I've tried to think of an answer to this question and have not been able to come up with one. :confused:
There are pros and cons to both guns. But I am afraid me saying that doesn't really answer your question. Maybe tomorrow I will have some type of an explanation.
Okay, let me rephrase the question. ;) Which do you prefer?
With all this bullpup knowledge and experience....Has anyone handled the TAR 21 'Tavor'?
Just wondering how it stacks up against the AUG, FAMAS, FN2000, etc...
Will it ever be marketed here in the U.S.?
The Tavor is one of those guns I am dying to get my hands on.
I have not handled one, however there was a rumor that Barrett was looking into producing them domestically a few years ago, however that apparently fell through.
I've personally shot AUG's and I actually was able to shoot one of the few US civillian FAMAS's several years ago.
I actually really dig the FAMAS, it has the best ergo's of any bullpup I've handled.
I'd very much like to get some trigger time with the FN 2000. My most serious reservation about them is that you have to disassemble them to clear some malfunctions.
Okay, let me rephrase the question. ;) Which do you prefer?
That's the problem. I have trouble making up my mind on this :confused:
The FS2000 seems to shoulder more comfortably *for me*. My support hand on the gun's forearm is close to my strong hand on the pistol grip and this to me seems more comfortable than the AUG with my support hand on the vertical foregrip.
The AUG is a more conventional firearm than the FS2000. It ejects from the side and has a last shot holdopen for the bolt. But because of the location of the ejection port, the AUG cannot be used weakhanded. As I said, if you are lefthanded you need to get a different bolt that ejects left and then switch the ejection port. On the other hand the FS2000 is about the most comfortable gun to fire weakhanded that I have ever used.
My AUG has an updated reticle for the built in scope. It gives it a thin crosshair that bisects scope's normal black donut reticle. It is much better for sighting in and precision shots than the black donut reticle which is about as wide as a man's shoulders at 100 yards. Most of the AUGs don't have this updated reticle, nor do they have a scope that can slide off and be replaced by a rail to mount newer optics like mine has. This makes a big difference. Because compared to an AUG with a standard AUG scope, the FS2000 with an Aimpoint mounted is a better option from the optics standpoint.
The AUG with the trigger tamer seems to shoot about an M.O.A. tighter than the FS2000 with the same ammo.
The Steyr AUG is a more proven platform than the FS2000.
Both platforms have their pluses and minuses. So you can see why it is hard for me to answer the question.
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